Fiddleharp - Posted - 01/01/2022:  16:24:06

Since I picked up the fiddle in the mid-1970's, many bows have stayed with me, although the fiddles have come and gone. Most of these bows are old pre-war Germans. Lately, since I've retired and have a lot of time to mess around, I've noticed distinct differences in the tone produced by different bows on the same fiddle.
Some of these bows produce an effect where it sounds like a completely different fiddle! I don't believe there's anything special about any of these bows. All of them, although very old, simply read, "Germany" on them. Any other inscriptions, even under a powerful light, are pretty much non-readable.
What would make such a difference in tone, depending on the bow? It seems hard to believe just a tiny difference in wood weight/density would make that much of a difference.
What say you?

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/01/2022:  17:50:17

Wood density is definitely something that has a major impact on performance. This is why old-growth pernambuco is so precious and why modern makers have to fight an uphill battle with the wood that’s available now; if you copy the thicknesses of fine old bows, you end up with an attractive noodle, so you end up having to compensate by making the bow thicker. That means it ends up looking chunky and amateurish, and the response and sound radiativity can take a big hit. Finding good wood is half the battle, and it’s a harder and harder battle to fight as good options dwindle.

It’s not just the wood selection and density that count, though. The shape of the head, the profile of the stick, the balance, the camber, and the quality of the hair all play important parts. A bad rehair can make a fine bow perform like a disposable brazilwood bow of the lowest quality.

farmerjones - Posted - 01/01/2022:  18:01:36

quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddleharp

What would make such a difference in tone, depending on the bow? It seems hard to believe just a tiny difference in wood weight/density would make that much of a difference.

What say you?

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I think it speaks of just how much one's bow hand, fingers, and arm work with each bow. 

Some (many) bows wear me out. My bows are a joy to play. One must keep good form, else it goes running for the trees. But it takes very little arm. I'm sure there's technical terms for what's going on. Remarkable things work at all. But, as you said, over the years we play many bows and fiddles. Eventually, if we keep hunting, we find something we can settle on.

kjb - Posted - 01/02/2022:  06:01:37

I think the weight of the bow makes a big difference if you bow is too light you have to use too much arm/hand/wrist
pressure

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 01/02/2022:  07:36:32

Yeah ..... spending money on a bow search is something that you eventually have to do. Pernambuco over a century old that has been played is getting beyond my pocketbook. I have a few good quality bows and a mid-grade Coda that I play. Many others stay in their various cases and boxes. Occasionally I get some out and retry them as fiddles come and go. So far a couple of German bows still rule the roost. I* have found the about 61g work best for me.  I am truly glad I bought them when I did. R/

Edited by - UsuallyPickin on 01/02/2022 07:37:45

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/02/2022:  10:34:56

Weight can make a difference but it’s not as important as balance. If that’s wrong, the bow just won’t work well no matter the weight.

A century ago, lighter bows were more in vogue. That is why so many of the older bows weigh less than 60g. In his time and for quite a while after, Sartory’s bows were considered too stiff and bulky for a top-level player. Then playing style and technology changed significantly in the last 20-30 years. Now players love them and seek them out.

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/02/2022:  10:53:10

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Weight can make a difference but it’s not as important as balance. If that’s wrong, the bow just won’t work well no matter the weight.



A century ago, lighter bows were more in vogue. That is why so many of the older bows weigh less than 60g. In his time and for quite a while after, Sartory’s bows were considered too stiff and bulky for a top-level player. Then playing style and technology changed significantly in the last 20-30 years. Now players love them and seek them out.

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Can you draw a diagram, or give in percentage between frog to tip, an ideal balance?

carlb - Posted - 01/02/2022:  11:57:42

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Originally posted by kjb

I think the weight of the bow makes a big difference if you bow is too light you have to use too much arm/hand/wrist

pressure

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As a left hander, playing right handed, I tend to like a heavier bow, so I can use less pressure..

NCnotes - Posted - 01/02/2022:  11:57:50

I used to have a good bow, sl. heavier than current bow, and loved it...ability to bounce ("spiccato"), handling ability and get loud/soft. Part of it was the tip felt a bit more weighted? (That one got warped and sadly I had to part with it).



I struggle with my current cheap light bow (it tends to slide off strings easily, has narrow dynamic range).

I'm shopping for a better bow soon!



( I also bought a baroque bow online, of which a knowledgeable pro said, "This is the worst baroque bow I've ever seen/played." Then again his own bow cost as much as his automobile, so there's that! )

Edited by - NCnotes on 01/02/2022 11:58:53

kjb - Posted - 01/02/2022:  14:07:15

Yes I bought a diamond coda, about $750 which was more than I had spent on anything violin related ever , after two years or more I would do it all over again without thinking. Unless paganni decides to enter my body, I don't think I will ever need a better one. plus they are guaranteed for 7 years I think , I can feel the string vibration up to the e string , through the bow. I hope to get there also one day if possible.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/02/2022:  14:59:23

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

Can you draw a diagram, or give in percentage between frog to tip, an ideal balance?

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No diagram necessary. Typically, the balance point should be at about 9.5."  Some archetiers advocate for 0.25" more or less, but 9.5" seems to be the common standard.

Whenever a thumb grip or winding is replaced, it's important to pay close attention to the weight so as not to disturb the balance or to adjust it if it isn't right. All this can be adjusted by choosing the appropriate gauge of wire for the desired winding length as well as paying attention to the thickness and length of the thumb grip. 

Brian Wood - Posted - 01/02/2022:  15:09:06

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

Can you draw a diagram, or give in percentage between frog to tip, an ideal balance?

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No diagram necessary. Typically, the balance point should be at about 9.5."  Some archetiers advocate for 0.25" more or less, but 9.5" seems to be the common standard.

Whenever a thumb grip or winding is replaced, it's important to pay close attention to the weight so as not to disturb the balance or to adjust it if it isn't right. All this can be adjusted by choosing the appropriate gauge of wire for the desired winding length as well as paying attention to the thickness and length of the thumb grip. 

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Thanks. From the back of the frog? My inexpensive carbon fiber is about 9.25" to the back of the frog. I don't know very much about bows, only my preference from the few I have.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 01/02/2022:  16:19:58

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

Can you draw a diagram, or give in percentage between frog to tip, an ideal balance?

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No diagram necessary. Typically, the balance point should be at about 9.5."  Some archetiers advocate for 0.25" more or less, but 9.5" seems to be the common standard.

Whenever a thumb grip or winding is replaced, it's important to pay close attention to the weight so as not to disturb the balance or to adjust it if it isn't right. All this can be adjusted by choosing the appropriate gauge of wire for the desired winding length as well as paying attention to the thickness and length of the thumb grip. 

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Thanks. From the back of the frog? My inexpensive carbon fiber is about 9.25" to the back of the frog. I don't know very much about bows, only my preference from the few I have.

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The measurement is taken from the end of the stick where the button attaches. 

farmerjones - Posted - 01/02/2022:  19:51:10

Indeed, one can change that point by removing the winding.
I was into naked bows for awhile, until I found one that was head and shoulders above what I had. (stiffness-wise) You shouldn't have to read about my love of extremely stiff bows again. You're welcome.