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brya31 - Posted - 10/08/2008: 11:54:41
My lack of musical knowledge is showing again. I read that a song is a reel, or jig or hornpipe but I dont know what the heck the difference is? 
FiddleCat - Posted - 10/08/2008: 13:51:02
I have 2 pages I can scan and send you. They explain all 3 types of songs you mentioned, along with notation diagrams. It also includes the Waltz
If interested in a books version, e-mail me and I will email them to you.
All She Could Sing was Fiddle Come Fee, The Mouse has Married the Humble Bee.
brya31 - Posted - 10/08/2008: 14:00:20
Oh Thank You FiddleCat, I have emailed you.
azfiddle - Posted - 10/08/2008: 16:24:57
jigs are in 6/8 time- which means you can count them as 123-456, with an emphasis on the 1 and 4. Or "pineapple-pineapple"
reels in 4/4 - you can count them 1234 - "watermelon, watermelon"
Hornpipes are much like reels, but with more swing.
Hope that helps- Sharon
nofrets - Posted - 10/10/2008: 18:05:30
Here's a bit of info you may think is "trivia", but some Irish folks take it seriously. Jigs, reels and hornpipes are "tunes". Songs have words and are sung. Airs are songs where the words are not sung, but played freely, sometimes metered, and sometimes not.
Some fresh pineapple sure does sound good. What made me start thinking about that? ;-)
transplant - Posted - 10/10/2008: 18:06:39
OK, that's the basics of it... any of you experts got some hints on how to get a jig to go beyond the mechanical rickety tickety rickety tickety implied by the 6/8 time signature? I want to know how to play so they can't help but tap their feet...
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kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
bj - Posted - 10/10/2008: 19:09:20
quote:
OK, that's the basics of it... any of you experts got some hints on how to get a jig to go beyond the mechanical rickety tickety rickety tickety implied by the 6/8 time signature? I want to know how to play so they can't help but tap their feet...
I could be way off base here, but I think my teacher is pushing me towards it when he insists I change the bowing and the phrasing somewhat each time through a tune. He says that's what adds excitement, but you also can't wander far from the melody line, it always has to be, if not actually played, then strongly implied. Now I just wish I could get that inventive . . . I can just about get it right bowed one way.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
OTJunky - Posted - 10/10/2008: 19:42:42
quote:
Originally posted by transplant
OK, that's the basics of it... any of you experts got some hints on how to get a jig to go beyond the mechanical rickety tickety rickety tickety implied by the 6/8 time signature? I want to know how to play so they can't help but tap their feet...
I think you have to say a bit more because the answer to a question like this can vary widely depending on how long you've been playing and on what your goals are.
Sometimes this question is code for, "I want to learn how to play Irish fiddle". Sometimes, it just means you want to play a couple of jigs like most American fiddlers do - probably "Irish Washerwoman" and "Haste to the Wedding".
The answer can range between things like - "buy Peter Coopers book and CD on Irish fiddling", to "think about bowing jigs this way", to "plan to spend a month every year in Ireland and learn to like Guiness."
How long have you been playing and are you trying to learn Irish fiddling, or do you just want to play a jig or two?
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
transplant - Posted - 10/11/2008: 06:27:02
Fair enough, OTJ 
First had a fiddle in my hands thirty years ago, haven't really put it down for any length of time since.
Mostly self-taught, applying what I learned on the mandolin before that, but I've worked with a teacher or two over the years. My left hand can pretty much be coaxed into tune most of the time, more so after its well warmed up. Sometimes the left hand even starts to dance on the strings, but my bowing still goes between sewing-machine regular boredom and mushy sloppy iffy so-so timing. A lot of the time it sounds fine to me while I'm playing, but listening back to the recorded tune tells a different story. I can mostly keep the right arm loose and heavy, the hair in the right spot and square to the string, with short little bows from the wrist and fingers, or long ones that stay straight... and am just now starting to work on getting notes to speak with a pop at the beginning.
Haste to the Wedding pops out when I think "jig." Calliope House. Irish Washerwoman, of course. Morrison's, Smash the WIndows... but tf I had to favor a style, it would be some flavor of Scotch (a nice chewy Islay that's been run through an old stove pipe a bunch of times is best.) I'm an American mutt, and I'll happily play whatever comes my way, if I like it. Scandinavian fiddling and Shetland tunes tickle my fancy as well.
I think a good prototype jig for working on getting some bounce into it will be Lamb Skinnet. It's in that big file that Vinny Ray pointed at. Simple, repetitive, and I remember dancing to it years ago.
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kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
nofrets - Posted - 10/11/2008: 07:20:25
I'm in the same position you are, trying to feel comfortable enough to change the tune some each time through. Some days and some tunes are better than others. Some ideas to make them sound different could include:
- Slurring into the 1 and 4 beat with increase pressure or speed on the bow.
- Figure out where you could fit a roll, triplet, cut, etc.
- Leave a note out (Flute players have to do this to catch their breath.)
- Add more notes
- Hold a big note a little longer
- See where you could add an occasional doublestop, emphasize the suspense and resolutions if the tune lays out correctly. (Suspense isn't the right word, but I'm brain dead)
You don't have to get too far away from the melody to make it sound different. I'm more comfortable experimenting if I decide to play the tune 10 or more times. Then it is deeply planted in my mind and veering off is not as traumatic and you can find your way back. If you want people tapping their toes, that's all about rhythym, and you can do a lot with your right hand.
Good luck!
OTJunky - Posted - 10/11/2008: 11:05:08
quote:
transplant wrote:
Haste to the Wedding pops out when I think "jig." Calliope House. Irish Washerwoman, of course. Morrison's, Smash the WIndows... but tf I had to favor a style, it would be some flavor of Scotch (a nice chewy Islay that's been run through an old stove pipe a bunch of times is best.) I'm an American mutt, and I'll happily play whatever comes my way, if I like it. Scandinavian fiddling and Shetland tunes tickle my fancy as well.
Well, here's what I think about it - though I'm not sure you should take it seriously. I'm mostly writing this to get some real Irish fiddlers to chime in.
I think that American OT fiddling and Irish fiddling are different in some important ways. American fiddlers mostly convey the rhythm with a change in bow direction - hence all the discussion about "bowing patterns" on the forum. Irish fiddlers do this to, but have other techniques as well that come in two categories
- melodic "ornamentation" - bowed triplets, long rolls, short rolls and crans.
- emphasizing the second note in a slur to get sort of a "hammer-on" effect.
The reason for these differences, IMHO, are that in America the fiddle has always been the "principal" instrument - with the banjo being a close second is some styles. In Irish music the principle instrument has always been the Uilleann pipes - the Irish national bagpipe. The pipes are a wind instrument. They can play some "chords" with their "chanters" but this is more like the lower strings on an Appalachian dulcimer than it is like chords on a guitar.
Because of the pipes, the Irish tradition instrumental dance music tradition has always been about conveying the rhythm by "phrasing" complex melodies - both with ornamentation and by emphasizing different notes with a change in volume. It's the same with the Irish flute. So, Irish fiddlers need to join and complement this ensemble of wind instruments and have developed a style of fiddle playing that works in this context.
American fiddlers don't often play along with wind instruments. Usually they're forced to coordinate with 5 string banjos and guitars. It's really hard to play a jig on a 5 string banjo - especially in a claw hammer style, and it's rare to find an American guitar player that can backup a jig in 6/8 time. Irish guitar players can do it though these days they often resort to "sock style" - that I don't like very much.
So, it just seems like the 5 string banjo is pretty much designed for playing in 4/4 time and over the years, most jigs have fallen out of the American fiddler's repertoire - except for a few "novelty" tunes like "Irish Washerwoman" and "Haste to the Wedding". Paul Gifford pointed out on another thread that these are not Irish jigs - but were composed in England.
Most American fiddlers approach jigs the same way the approach the rest of the American repertoire - by conveying the rhythm with changes in bow direction. Jigs are built around three notes patterns - as opposed to the two or four note patterns used in Reels, "Breakdowns" and "Hoedowns" which are pretty much all the same thing in American fiddling.
When playing jigs you can
- bow all three notes
- slur all three notes
- slur the first two and bow the last one
- bow the first one and slur the last two
- bow the first two, slur two more into the first note of the next three, then either bow or slur the last two notes.
Of course, there are a few other bowing patterns you can figure out as well.
I think an Irish fiddler would never think this way about playing a jig. The Irish fiddler would instead just play or sing it straight when learning it - looking for places that can be made or interesting by the insertion of ornamentation or by increasing the bow pressure for emphasis. This is the same way a flute player would do it.
This is why I thought it was important to ask what your goals were. Irish fiddling is a lot different than American fiddling and it can take a couple of years to get all the ornamentation - and the proper mindset - under your fingers.
But if you just want to play some jigs and sound like an American fiddler while doing it, much less work's required - though it does take some time to become comfortable with three note bowing patterns so they become second nature and so you can mix'em up when playing. I think a lot of American fiddlers (maybe most of'em) think it's not worth the trouble because jigs played this way don't sound as good as any jig played by an Irish fiddler.
And it's hard to find anybody to play along with you.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 10/11/2008 13:56:28
transplant - Posted - 10/12/2008: 17:39:38
Food for thought, guys, thanks! I'm probably at a place where some thinking will help. Endless noodling, and and playing what the "inner" ear hears, will only carry me so far.
Goals? Haven't really set any-- not interested in total mimicry of any "style," but there are a few influences that I favor. That catalog is growing every day. If I ever figure out who I want to sound like, I'll be sure to let you know.
Ornaments have started to leap unbidden from my fingers lately, which is kind of cool, but also something I need to think about ahead of time and during the tune. That, and think about crossing strong beats with bow strokes accented in the middle, and accenting other beats with bow changes, and then go make me a vocabulary of bow habits...
thanks again,
__Bill
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kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
JessicaRose - Posted - 10/15/2008: 11:25:07
I concur that it's hard to play a jig using a clawhammer banjo. I tried to do that two days ago when picking with a fiddleer friend of mine. Wow. I was totally stymied. Eventually, I settled on playing it something like an Irish guitar accompanist ... nothing but brush strokes, nothing but rhythm. Heavy on the 1 beat, lighter on 3-beat, heavy again on the 4. That's all. Anything else I tried sounded terrible. Eh, at least it got me through the tune.
I pick, therefore I grin.
Aodhan - Posted - 10/17/2008: 08:26:46
quote:
Originally posted by transplant
OK, that's the basics of it... any of you experts got some hints on how to get a jig to go beyond the mechanical rickety tickety rickety tickety implied by the 6/8 time signature? I want to know how to play so they can't help but tap their feet...
________________________________________________
kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
For Irish, I recommend listening to a LOT of groups playing a LOT of tunes. I played bodhran in a band for a while, and the biggest thing is that a lot of times the "break" in the phrasing does NOT occur at the same point as the bar does. Often the break will be right in the middle of the bar. At first you think it's a bit "off kilter", but once you get used to it, that's when you start getting that "lilt" effect and people tapping their feet.
If you like as well, (I'd have to dig up my scanner), I have a tunebook that I can scan a few various tunes and mark out the pauses as I would play them on the flute. (Yes, flute, piano, trumpet once upon a time, bodhran and now starting violin. Whee!)
Oh, and the above poster is correct on the tune vs. song correction.
John
Aodhan - Posted - 10/17/2008: 08:31:37
quote:
Originally posted by transplant
OK, that's the basics of it... any of you experts got some hints on how to get a jig to go beyond the mechanical rickety tickety rickety tickety implied by the 6/8 time signature? I want to know how to play so they can't help but tap their feet...
________________________________________________
kindly remind me what I''m supposed to do with this thing, now
Another thing about Irish music is the ornamentation. RARELY will you hear a song played "straight" as the notes on the page would indicate. There are slurs, slides, taps, cuts, rolls (or crans), etc. (These are all flute/whistle terms, btw, not sure if they translate straight across to fiddle.)
Hrm. Let me stick all this in another post.
John
ChickenMan - Posted - 10/17/2008: 20:04:05
I think of a lot of 'American' tunes that are of Irish or other (dare I use the word?) Celtic origin.
A tiny list
Red Haired Boy (or The Beggar Man)
Whiskey Before Breakfast
Soldier's Joy
All of these tunes have an Irish version that is very close in notation to our old time versions. Turkey in the Straw is a melody from an Irish tune the name I cannot recall. Of course, they are reels and not jigs, but I have played Swallowtail Jig and Road to Lisdoonvarna (6-8 time) with old timey-ers.
The more I look into tune books (like O'Niel's and Ryan's and The Session.org, etc.) the more I see the Old World influences in the way our tunes have developed.
I think it is fascinating in a geeky 'I need to know as much as I can about this' way.
Like the OT music, you need to be very familiar with the melody in order to focus on the feel and bowing of the tune. I read somewhere here on the forum, someone 'gave up' Irish music to focus on OT, and there is some merit to that line of thinking. All of the interviews I've read with Irish fiddlers (Kerry, Donegal, not to mention other styles like Cape Brenton and even some Old Time sub sects) say in order to play it right, you've got to really immerse yourself in the music in order to get the nuances.
Personally, I like to listen to a single song or set of tunes repeatedly (seriously,..WAY to many times) until I can't keep the tune out of my head...
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"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife
coelhoe - Posted - 10/18/2008: 07:29:22
The "Red Haired Boy" is certainly of Celtic derivation, but the other two are not. "WBB" is a Canadian tune of rather recent origin, credited to Andy de Jarlis of Manitoba in 1957.
"Soldier's Joy" is so common in Europe and North America that origins are hard to pin point. A. L. Lloyd, the British folk song scholar, points to a Polish manuscript of the melody dated from the late 1500's.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
ChickenMan - Posted - 10/19/2008: 05:48:02
By what source are you siting WWB as a 50's Canadian tune? I don't have time this morning 'cause I have an AM gig, but when I get home, I will find my sources and post them.
Anyway, my point was this: OT has many tunes with Irish roots, (but few tunes in the jig dept). All one has to do is look at sets published before the turn of the 20th century. If you want to play Irish music, listen to a lot of it to get the feel. Also know that Irish music is as diverse in style as OT.
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"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife
coelhoe - Posted - 10/19/2008: 09:14:40
I forget that newcomers to the FHO may not be familiar with the outstanding research materials available at "The Fiddler's Companion" website, which is my usual first stop in seeking historical information on tunes. Here is their documentation on "Whiskey Before Breakfast"
WHISKEY BEFORE BREAKFAST. AKA and see "Spirits of the Morning." Canadian (originally), Old#8209;Time; Breakdown. D Major. Standard tuning. AABB. A widely known tune, often mistaken for an old traditional old#8209;time tune (it was even listed on one album as "an Irish tune which has been popular in America for a number of years”). It has generally been credited to the mid#8209;twentieth century by Manitoba, Canada, fiddler and composer Andy de Jarlis (known for his fine waltzes) probably on the strength of his copyrighted arrangement (it is a common practice among music publishers to copyright arrangements of traditional tunes). " “Whiskey Before Breakfast” was included in de Jarlis’ book Canadian Fiddle Tunes from Red River Valley (1957), where he is credited for the arrangement only. According to Paul Gifford, the tune’s popularity in the United States is fairly recent, probably stemming from its inclusion on a Voyager Records LP called “More Fiddle Favorites,” by Canadian fiddle champion Lloyd Sexsmith, who probably learned it from de Jarlis (sometimes DesJarlis). It is often used as musical accompaniment for the quadrille 'Reel of Eight' in Canada. Gibbons (1982) notes that “Whiskey” is a favorite of Metis (native American) dance troupes in Western Canada, and in this connection Gifford suggests that de Jarlis learned the tune from Metis fiddler Teddy Boy Houle’s father (de Jarlis himself had Metis blood). It seems that de Jarlis and the elder Houle were up playing till dawn with the aid of libation before finally passing out. On finally awaking, de Jarlis remembered the last tune they played and perhaps gave it the “Whiskey” name. Perlman (1979) identifies it as coming from Canada's Maritime provinces where it is called "Spirits of the Morning."
Here is the url, if you want to check it yourself as there is more information than just what I posted here: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/ and then go to the alphabetical files.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
ChickenMan - Posted - 10/19/2008: 14:37:01
I'll go with that. i saw on thesession that it "was made popular in Canada in the 1950s and 60s via the recordings of Andy DeJarlis, a Metis fiddler who enjoyed a recording an broadcasting carreer in Canada". To me that sounds like Andy gets credit just because he recorded/copyrighted it - as does your entry. Either way, it clearly seems Canadian in origin. Of course, the Canadian tradition owes much to the French, Irish, and Scottish immigrants just like the American tradition.
And yes I am a newbie.. now I will be spending more of my time at the TFC website :-) to satisfy the geek in me.
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"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife
Edited by - ChickenMan on 10/19/2008 16:26:55
