Banjo Bonnie - Posted - 12/17/2018:  05:21:10

As I listen to legendary old-time fiddlers who also play banjo such as Tommy Jarrell, Fred Cockerham, Wade Ward and Kyle Creed, they play a simple basic melody on the banjo compared to the fiddle.



It seems banjo players who don't play fiddle tend to play way too much of the fiddle part whereas if they do play fiddle they can understand the roles a bit better.



I've also heard that when playing old-time tunes, when the banjo hits hard on the drop thumb for a syncopated back beat, although it sounds funky on the banjo, it can really throw off the fiddler.

Any advice on my list of dos and don'ts when backing old-time fiddlers?

(besides listen, listen, listen to the fiddler, be on time and in key)



1) don't play too loud, too assertively or independently of the fiddler



2) Do not get ahead of the fiddler



3) Play only a sparse parallel melody. Just because you are able to fill in the entire melody, doesn't mean you should



 

Edited by - Banjo Bonnie on 12/19/2018 04:47:39

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 12/17/2018:  06:19:11

Hmmmm …. Play simply … chords and passing chords … when the fiddle is high play below it and vice versa when practicable … support the melody don't play the melody until it's the banjo's "turn" … harmony is great but "arrange" when you are planning to do so... timing is always a thing with banjo .. good timing at a dance is paramount … As you pointed out not too loud ... it is difficult to drown out a fiddle but a banjo with finger picks and resonator is capable … banjo fiddle duets are the bomb … enjoy... R/

Swing - Posted - 12/17/2018:  08:47:01

Do listen and don't play

Play Happy

Swing

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/17/2018:  09:15:22

Banjo and fiddle sound amazing together. I really like a strong banjo behind me when I play. I also like to play some sort of shuffle when backing up a banjo player.

sbhikes2 - Posted - 12/17/2018:  16:28:42

What kind of music? Both Irish and old-time have people playing in unison. I have to admit I don't know what "in unison" means when it comes to 5-string claw-hammer. It's not ever quite unison.

ChickenMan - Posted - 12/17/2018:  16:53:10

OT banjo is MUCH more than playing melody in unison. The good ones do some kind of voodoo with thier banjos, back up, counterpoint, melody, harmony...

But for me, timing is priority one in banjo players.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 12/17/2018:  17:36:07

Play whatever makes the fiddler sound good. Some of them sound better with a subtle backing style, but others sound better with an aggressive approach. People want to make rule books, but the truth is, you have to figure it out on a player-by-player or tune-by-tune basis.

RobBob - Posted - 12/17/2018:  18:59:58

Listen and add to what they are doing without detracting from what they are doing. Follow their dynamic and listen, listen, listen. If you listen to Ken Perlman play with Alan Jabbour or Stephen Wade play with him, you will hear great banjo playing that adds, supports and enhances the fiddle. There are recordings of these duets that are highly instructive to the intentional listener.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 12/17/2018:  19:16:38

For most old time fiddle tunes, a banjo player will find him/herself playing an octave lower than the fiddler..If you can get the fiddler play (at times) the fiddle tune an octave lower, the banjo suddenly seems to be highlighted.. The sound of both instruments playing in the same octave is wonderful, but unfortunately it is a thing that you don't see too often..

Banjo Bonnie - Posted - 12/18/2018:  04:52:10

My question is specifically about backing old-time fiddle tunes.
As I listen to legendary old-time fiddlers who also play banjo such as Tommy Jarrell, Fred Cockerham, Wade Ward and Kyle Creed, they play a simple basic melody on the banjo compared to the fiddle.

It seems banjo players who don't play fiddle tend to play way too much of the fiddle part whereas if they do play fiddle they can understand the roles a bit better.

I've also heard that when playing old-time tunes, when the banjo hits hard on the drop thumb for a syncopated back beat although it sounds funky on the banjo, it can really throw off the fiddler.

Narrowing down my question, I would appreciate thoughts on this matter
and
many thanks for the generous replies,
Bonnie

carlb - Posted - 12/18/2018:  05:18:21

My thoughts on playing with a fiddler.

When I first started playing banjo, I was strongly attracted to Melvin Wine's fiddling. As a result, my early banjo settings are a reflection of what Melvin played. Over the years, I developed ways to play tunes. However, most of the fiddlers I've played with, I've adapted my settings to go with what they were playing. There have only been three fiddlers (not counting Melvin) with whom I've played that I haven't had to adapt my setting. It is thrilling for me to play with them when I have a chance to.

So, my take home lesson is, try to adapt your setting to the fiddle so that it sounds like a real duet.

PS There are a few examples of my early playing with Melvin Wine in 1982 at Fiddle Tunes in Washington state on my Banjo Hangout web site.

banjohangout.org/myhangout/mus...p;Letter=

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/18/2018:  05:46:59

Nice banjo samples, Carl! I'm always trying to figure out what works in my own banjo playing, since I spend my time these days doing home recordings of fiddling with banjo, etc. I think I can usually figure out how to get the banjo and fiddle sounding ok together, but the most trouble I have is with the guitar. I've spent over 50 years playing mostly guitar (could not afford my own banjo or fiddle until about ten years ago), and it was 100% fingerstyle. I really can't seem to make that work with fiddle or banjo either one. I now try strumming mostly, but it sounds pretty boring to me. I have never flatpicked, but I've been trying to work some of that into it here and there, and it's just not an easy thing for me. Anyway, good topic, and I think Banjo Bonnie has the right idea!

Dan Gellert - Posted - 12/18/2018:  08:29:28

Bonnie's saying something close to my #1 general rule (stolen from James Brown), which is : Come down on the ONE.
It's all about the downbeat.
If you're playing clawhammer/frailing or index-lead 2-finger, keep in mind what that thumb string is for-- to point your ear's attention at the downbeat which follows it.

The possibilities of a fiddle-banjo duet cover a very broad territory, but as the OP states "backing", it's especially important to remember that accompaniment is NOT following. The backup needs to lay down a solid foundation of rhythm and phrasing for the lead to build upon.

lapsteel - Posted - 12/18/2018:  11:26:44

Do relax and have fun!
Don’t get wound up about any thing.

soppinthegravy - Posted - 12/18/2018:  12:30:49

If you're playing every last note with no boom-chucka, you lose the characteristic loping that helps to drive the tune. If everybody's just playing a waterfall of notes, and nobody is emphasizing the pulse or the basic structure it's usually not enjoyable for me. If the banjo keeps the basic melody and rhythm, it keeps the fiddler from getting lost. If it's really notey, it's harder to grasp. Fiddlers are playing too many notes, nowadays. Somebody's gotta sell the beat and the basic melody. The banjo is one of the best-suited instruments for that task.  The banjo shouldn't just kinda, sorta, be there. It needs to make a positive contribution emphasizing the important points of the tune.

Here are a few of my personal favorites.

Eric Vick youtube.com/watch?v=yPIjCTcx7b0

Willis Fields youtube.com/watch?v=4OJ4u1f54W8

Uncle Dave Macon youtube.com/watch?v=8PWhuiNzasg

Jim Costa youtube.com/watch?v=XMgMwAExS-w

Leroy Troy youtube.com/watch?v=4tWpk_efXiQ

Rebekah Weiler youtube.com/watch?v=KWNtYN-_u30

Jonathan Farrell youtube.com/watch?v=nPpZ2T7SH1o

Tommy "Red" Hazelwood youtube.com/watch?v=cIhSkYuEAlA

Steve Richard (third clip) youtube.com/watch?v=7JglF6vE-5Y

Mike Snider youtube.com/watch?v=BHVNOAygVIw

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjo Bonnie

My question is specifically about backing old-time fiddle tunes.

As I listen to legendary old-time fiddlers who also play banjo such as Tommy Jarrell, Fred Cockerham, Wade Ward and Kyle Creed, they play a simple basic melody on the banjo compared to the fiddle.



It seems banjo players who don't play fiddle tend to play way too much of the fiddle part whereas if they do play fiddle they can understand the roles a bit better.



I've also heard that when playing old-time tunes, when the banjo hits hard on the drop thumb for a syncopated back beat although it sounds funky on the banjo, it can really throw off the fiddler.



Narrowing down my question, I would appreciate thoughts on this matter

and

many thanks for the generous replies,

Bonnie

---

Edited by - soppinthegravy on 12/18/2018 12:36:29

DougD - Posted - 12/18/2018:  12:37:27

I agree, Daniel. As a very good banjo playing friend of mine once said, referring to one of the players mentioned earlier in this thread "He might as well use a flatpick."

soppinthegravy - Posted - 12/18/2018:  13:08:22

That reminds me. I have a video of a guy playing a great supporting banjo line using a flatpick on a five string. I've seen people use them, but never quite like this guy. youtube.com/watch?v=PjBjGzBVQ4o 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

I agree, Daniel. As a very good banjo playing friend of mine once said, referring to one of the players mentioned earlier in this thread "He might as well use a flatpick."

---

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/18/2018:  22:55:33

Great points.  

Mostly the universal basic rules for play music with any one. There are many possibilities... (OT isn't one sound)...  some more melodic, some is just mostly chord strumming (bum ditty)... and of course maybe 2 finger might work better...  it's about playing together as unit, DO what sounds good to you and the fiddler that compliments and works toward common goal... DON'T do things that are just following imagined rules and might be disruptive. Listen close to the whole, more than just sum of the parts.

That said... similar to the OP...  my observations about most common ideas that folks like or not (associated with OT); and  comments I most hear; -  is that the fiddler is more in charge the lead melodic sound; the banjo is there to support; make sure that the volume and articulation doesn't make it sound as if the banjo is the lead and fiddle is trying accompany. 

Leave the fiddler space to ornament, rock, phrase, weave... that means don't try to match unison melodic (as Doug mentioned, sound like a tenor banjo).

At the same time, don't just strum chords, that's what guitars do better (and a lot of the beauty is not being chord progression based).

edit another comment...  a bit debatable for some... it's purpose is not simply as drum with a stick... (just pointing out some folks hate the overly percussive, and esp the  "cluck". (others love it, just be aware it is an issue). 

So in between is to kind of idea of  frame the basic melodic line or contour... but add rhythmic groove, drone, hints of chord for accent... but still leaves room for the fiddle to lead. 

The only other to that is a bit of issue is double thumbing. Some folks just hate it, over done.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 12/18/2018 23:03:48

Cyndy - Posted - 12/19/2018:  07:38:45

I don't have anything to add in words to what people that I respect have already said, but in recent memory I've listened to two modern old-time CDs where I've said to myself, "That exactly how banjo/fiddle should be done." For me, the recordings offer answers to the question of how banjo and fiddle might fit together successfully in old-time music. I just have to dig them out someday. :)

One is the Stuart Brothers CD and DVD Set and the other is the new Stefanini/Bragger CD, Holy Smoke! To my ear and for my tastes (which others may or may not share), both are exquisite examples of a banjoist knowing how to complement a fiddle in just the right way.

Fiddler - Posted - 12/19/2018:  09:39:04

Banjo-fiddle duets are wonderful. I think the qualities of both instruments are enhanced.

A good banjoist partner is hard to find. I have only known a couple in my fiddling career and they are great friends! When you do find a good banjoist, treat them well. Share your 'shine with them. They will make you better!!

So, here's my 2 cents for banjoists...
1. Put a sock in it! ...(or sponge or rag or...) The sonic level of most banjos is loud. I don't think loud playing is purposeful. It's just the location of the instrument. The head is at belly-height and facing away from their ears. So, to hear themselves when playing with someone else, they bang the dickens out of their instrument! (Guitarists are sometimes guilty of this, too.) When you (the fiddler) are sitting across from the banjo, that is all you hear. What makes it even worse is that some traditions use resonator banjos for claw hammer style.

2. Listen. Listen. Listen.

3. Let your playing complement the fiddle -- and let the fiddle complement the banjo.

Some banjoists will strum/bum-diddy/or whatever it's called that banjoists do. They think they are "enhancing" the sound when, in fact, they are detracting from it. Their playing is not in sync with the fiddle or the tune - even though they may be in rhythm. (See #2 and #3 above.)

Finally, have fun. If playing is not fun, why do it?? Enjoy the creative act and connecting with another human being.

RobBob - Posted - 12/19/2018:  11:21:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

I agree, Daniel. As a very good banjo playing friend of mine once said, referring to one of the players mentioned earlier in this thread "He might as well use a flatpick."

---

That  would not be a reference to one of the banjo players I mentioned would it?  I told one of them if I were to play jigs I'd do it like Mick Maloney.

DougD - Posted - 12/19/2018:  15:18:46

I don't think I'll comment further except to say I'd be glad to play any type of tune with Mick, if I could keep up! When we first met him I don't think he'd been over here too long, and was finding himself in jams with old time players. Likewise, at festivals we were trying to play with people like the Boys of the Lough. So we agreed to exchange tapes of the 100 most common tunes in our respective styles, either from our record collections, or recorded for the project. Those were the days! I don't know what eventually happened to the cassette Mick made for us.