Bob on Delmarva - Posted - 11/15/2018:  05:46:08

I noticed a comment on home recording by groundhogpeggy on the "If you want to learn to play fiddle" string and would love to get some input. I have made a few backup tracks by plugging my guitar pickup into a Zoom digital recorder with mixed results. I used the pickup so I could record guitar only tracks while playing along with existing audio files. In order to improve my results I purchased a Focusrite USB interface that I have so far used it with Audacity on a laptop. It has helped with impedance matching, recording levels and control and I am ready for the next step. I would like to try multi-tracking and wondered if Audacity is the best choice for the DAW. The Focusrite came with ProTools First and Ableton Live Lite and I also had been looking at Reaper. I wonder if using one of these would be better then Audacity as I would like to switch now before I get to far down the Audacity learning curve. I have also been looking for a low cost condenser microphone for recording fiddle and vocals. I had been serious about the sE Electronics X1A but they have a good black Friday sale on the X1S bundle that may be a better choice. All of the comparisons I find on these microphones just show the specs, I would love to hear from someone that has used them.

Mojohand40 - Posted - 11/15/2018:  08:44:19

Well, I do a fair amount of multitrack, though I do tend to use a lot of electronic stuff (drum machines, synths, sequencers etc.) but I have done a lot of acoustic multitracking as well.

Here's some of my recommendations based on my opinion and experience. (I'm no expert, just enjoy doing it as a hobby)



Audacity: Really great program.  Easy to use, easy to edit and pretty darn sophisticated for essentially a free program.  For purely acoustic multitracks, it's certainly possible to do a LOT that twenty years ago would have been very expensive and out of reach for the home recording hobbyist.  I used to record a lot back in the 80's with little four track cassette machines (fostex) and thought the first digital multitracks were amazing...now I play with audacity and just go "Wow!".    The interface I use for Audacity for acoustic is either a Yeti USB Microphone, or a Behringer Xenyx usb mixer. ( Behringer Mixer ).

The Yeti mic is pretty good in that it just plugs into the USB and you need nothing else.  It's not "professional" studio quality recording gear by any stretch, BUT, it is still pretty darn amazing considering the price, and again; what would have been available 30 years ago.  There are plenty of other USB mics out there, I just got this one because I found it used for a cheap price, tried it and found it perfectly acceptable for what I was doing.

Now, if I want to get a little fancier; I use the Behringer USB mixer with a MXL 990 microphone ( link for mic ).   Again, not the best mic in the world, but pretty darn good for 100 bucks.  Works for a wide array of things.

The only problems I have with Audacity:  Sometimes get a little latency when recording, especially if I have a LOT of tracks going on.  I recorded "This Wreckage"  with Audacity (see MP3 Below) and it used about 20 tracks.  Towards the end, I had to go in an physically shift tracks to get the timing to line up as I recorded.   Now, a lot of this is the Bus speed and processor of my PC, but it seems I get more latency issues with the mixer then the Yeti, though that may be my imagination.    Now for purely acoustic recording that used only six tracks, see "That's My Rabbit.." (see MP3 Below) really had no problems with latency on this one and I think I used mostly the Yeti, but I don't remember.

Now for most recording I do I use Presonus Studio One with their Audio interface. (Audio Box ).  This is quite a step up from Audacity, but honestly, it has a lot of features that most people won't use.  The learning curve is a little steep for this one, if you really dive into it.   My main reason I use it: It works VERY well with MIDI.  I like to use Drum machines and other electronic boxes, so a lot of times I need a good clock sync etc.  (My Volca's can take a midi clock sent from Presonus and convert it to a audio based Sync signals for older gear if I need etc.)

I tend to use BOTH Audacity and Presonus.   They both have strong points.  Some times I will do a few tracks in one, for example; and then mix them down and import into the  other.  I have some recordings I started in Presonus and then finished in Audacity, and vice versa.

I say stick with Audacity awhile and really learn it before switching to a different package,  it may be all you ever need

That's my Rabbit, My Dog Caught it

This Wreckedge

bob t - Posted - 11/15/2018:  11:09:38

You can try Reaper free for 60 days but there is no penalty to try it longer. It is about $60 to buy. Well worth it to me and the layout is similar to an old school analog recording system, so its fairly user friendly to me.

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/15/2018:  12:54:43

I have the Focusrite and the software it came with. I don't like the fact that I have to use "the cloud" to store my projects using the ProTools, and for that reason alone, I started one project, put down two tracks and a midi drum click track, then abandoned it because I don't like having to be online every time. Audacity is so much easier. I never even tried the Ableton. The Focusrite has a headphone jack that should, if set up properly, alleviate any latency issues (having what you record not line up with your other tracks). I really like the Focusrite product. I have the two track version.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/15/2018:  13:58:12

With a usb interface/sound card, you will get latency issues (10/20 milliseconds or more) in my experience,

pci sound cards, (the ones that plug into your motherboard) give better latency performance (2 milliseconds or less), this effects playing along with a pre recorded track or playing with a click track, etc..

personally i like Reaper software for its versatility, old school interface, notation/midi facilities, effects and price, and have never had any negative experiences in about 5 years with it, i dont think i will ever master it, just because it does so much...but there is plenty of support for it out there on the internet

i've just got an old M-audio delta sound card i got off ebay and a little mixer (Behringer) and a few old mics and pre amps i also got from ebay that i like to play around with....all a bit Heath Robinson.....have fun!

bees - Posted - 11/15/2018:  16:56:30

I also use the Focusrite 2i4 usb audio interface and started out with Audacity as a DAW - it is a great program. I more recently have been using Presonus Studio One 3 and the difference is significant. Higher quality and more options but the cost is that it is more challenging to use and to remember how to use if you don't use it frequently. As was said earlier, if you are new to home recording, stick with Audacity for a while. IMO, learning to use Audacity well will help you more easily learn the more complicated programs later on. I still use Audacity for simple things but when I have grander plans I go with Presonus Studio One 3.

Bob on Delmarva - Posted - 11/16/2018:  02:20:52

The responses to my post have been very helpful. This seems like one of those areas you have to jump into to even know what to ask. I chose the Focusrite 2i2 as my interface because the impedance match with the K&K pickup in my guitar seemed compatible and the available direct monitoring offered low latency. I also liked the separate headphone and monitor outputs. With a couple of Hosa cables I have quite a few options for monitoring. I had looked at a couple of mixer/USB interfaces but the Focusrite seemed the best cost/function/reliability fit for my needs.

So far I have mostly used Audacity to rip the audio from You tube videos to learn new tunes. I have also used it with my Zoom recorder serving as a interface between my guitar and laptop. Now that I have the Focusrite I can concentrate on better learning the software without fooling around with the hardware. Based on the comments I will stay with Audacity for the beginning. I had looked at a number of Reaper videos and found them easy to understand. The user interface reminds me of Video editing software I have used in the past. In the future I will reassess my needs and decide if I want something beyond Audacity.

Now I have to choose a recording microphone. The sE X1A and AT2020 were recommended to me as good condenser mikes in the $100 range. Sweetwater music seems to lean toward the sE. There are a number of deals right now so I hope to make an informed choice between one of those or something else soon.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/16/2018:  02:31:54

Audacity is easy to use, not sure it qualifies a true DAW. For just recording multi-tracks and basic mixing them it works great. The big downsides are, limited to 2 in/out; the editing, esp that it uses destructive editing; and default how it applies effects (EQ, reverb, compression, and much more).   There are ways around via routing programs, but requires a bit more advanced knowledge, at which point a real DAW is better choice. 

Real DAWs have better editing... more in/out and routing for effects, allows more easy tweaking; and groups, bussing. On a basic audio track level are not too much more difficult to learn. Most are about the same, the main differences of DAWs is about the GUI interface, workflow, possibly how CPU demanding (issue on older slower machines). Of course most also offer far more; and might be designed more for things like dealing with MIDI, step-sequencing, beats, sampling,,looping,... and complex editing mixing features, things you might not need much worry about.  

Pro Tools, it's one of the standard pro DAWs.  The lite version, (like other lites) might lack advanced features, perhaps number of simultaneous tracks, or DSPs, or MIDI? Some like Ableton lite might work, but are really designed more for midi or electronic music. Ardour is a free full feature DAW, works well on Linux and OSX. 

------------

Microphone choice can be a bit tough. Especially for fiddle; and then dually for vocal; and on a budget. How mic sounds, how it might color the sound, frequency response/bumps, whether it is crisp bright and clear, or warm. Inexpensive LDCs tend to be crisp and bright, with high bump. Then things like self noise, sensitivity (quiet and loud). Depends on what all you want to use it for; budget expectations/need of quality. Keep in mind a lot of quality issues will be other factors, pres, mic placement, and your space (not a studio). Many fairly inexpensive mics that will do a decent okay job for home recording projects.

Just to mention that inexpensive large diameter condenser seem to want, think as "studio" quality, isn't necessarily going to achieve significantly better results, be better overall choice than a SDC, or electret, or good dynamic.

One other budget consideration is a mic you can also use on stage... perhaps even like good ole SM58 or 57 (folks do use them in studios, can get good results).

But again, most any of the $100 range mics will probably work fine at first; like many things... good enough until you "learn" it's not, and why you want something better. (or not).

edit noticing your post. - I have the AT2020. It's not a large diameter, and it's electret condenser. Also have the MXL990, is a LDC. (as well as some others) They have somewhat different qualities. But both work perfectly fine though for the price.  

They used to offer a MXL 990/991 set for $99. 2 different mics, gave some flexible options.

Forgot to mention, some mics offer multiple choices of polar patterns (like the yeti) gives some flexibilities.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 11/16/2018 02:43:29

alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/16/2018:  03:50:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mojohand40

The only problems I have with Audacity:  Sometimes get a little latency when recording, especially if I have a LOT of tracks going on. 

Now, a lot of this is the Bus speed and processor of my PC, but it seems I get more latency issues with the mixer then the Yeti, though that may be my imagination.   

---

Just to mention on this track alignment/sync issue... it can be caused by many reasons, A/D converters, USB busses,... one has to do with API, audio engine, routing, #of things like tracks and DSPs. (and of course all the background CPU stuff, that you should turn off, like wi-fi and browser).

For better overall latency, on Windows should use ASIO API; much more efficient bypassing the windows sound architecture. It is proprietary of Steinberg (comes with Cubase and Steinberg VSTs) but can find available in other ways, like ASIO4all. Mac OSX automatically uses CoreAudio API, which seems as efficient.  For Linux use JACK Audio API; but JACK also has other features, and works with OSX and Windows. (Linux also has a low-latency kernel distro option). If you don't need to hear in real time processing/monitor... you can set up for larger processing buffer, more accurate. (less overruns).

Syncing... Many DAWs try to auto calculate, but does not always sync well (the above helps). You can manually calculate via various methods, like feedback loop; then go into the settings and type in the actual latency. Alternatively, many folks just do failsafe, record a percussive/metronome intro, do easy visual track alignment check. 

kruzty - Posted - 11/16/2018:  07:19:51

+1 for Reaper. Like was mentioned here before, use the free trial period to see how it works for you. If there is any knock on it, it is that the UI seems a bit dated, but I really don't care about that because it has tons of features, is not a resource hog, and most of all "just works."

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/16/2018:  10:22:25

mic wise i seem to like a small diameter condenser with a transformer output and a transformer input on the pre-amp, transformers just seem to muddy stuff up nicely and take the hard edge off things, ribbon mics are also nice for fiddle, but then you need a good room and an expensive pre-amp with loads of gain...all good fun

i also went with Audacity for a long while, but then got seduced by Reaper with all its bells and whistles, BTW it also does basic video editing/syncing as well as tons of other good stuff

DougD - Posted - 11/16/2018:  12:17:09

Looks like the Focusrite has a high enough input impedance to work with the K&K pickup. Another way to record backing tracks would be to listen to the source on headphones and record the guitar with a microphone. That's how we used to overdub in a studio.
DAW software is probably similar enough that learning Audacity will still be a good start, no matter what you end up with. Multitrack recording with a computer seems very klutzy to me without a control surface. Also, as an audiio engineer, a lot of these programs are confusing because they come from the world of MIDI synchronizers, not audio recording.
Microphones: Studio Electronics has always had a good reputation for budget microphones. I've never seen one, but I've watched YouTube videos recorded with their mics that sound very good.
I do have an AT2020, which came as a freebie with a Presonus interface. I think its remarkable for a $100 microphone. Build quality is very good, and it sounds good on vocals and acoustic guitar, and I've used it live on bass, and it did a good job there too. Its not really a large diaphragm - more like 1/2", and it doesn't have a pad or bass rolloff, but I've never missed them. Also no shockmount, but it has a very good stand mount, and internal isolation. Its a very well designed and built microphone.
I'm not sure any "large diaphragm" mic will be optimum for fiddle though. They generally have some kind of presence peak, and small diaphragm mics are usually flatter, and often have wider response. Audio Technica offers a bundle of the 2020 with a small diaphragm mic: sweetwater.com/store/detail/AT...udio-pack I've never used the small one, but judging from the 2020 I think you would always be able to find some use for these.
PS - Here's a video recorded with my AT2020. The artist wanted it to look like a recording studio, and that mic fit the bill, without carrying around something more expensive. youtu.be/BhJ5MK9rc5g

Edited by - DougD on 11/16/2018 12:24:06

KenMort - Posted - 11/16/2018:  14:18:38

I like Reaper a lot, it's free (with a nag screen at startup, one click and it's gone)
Only $60 for non-commercial (less than $20,000 revenue), and that fee is good for two major versions of upgrades.

Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 should be fine for now. It has pretty decent quality, but limited by just two mic preamps.

Microphones
A decent $100 mic for both Vocal and Fiddle is a little tough.
But, if you buy a used one on Craigslist you could probably get a better one that would be fine for both Vocal and Fiddle.
Where in California are you? I can look at craigslist postings there and tell you what I see.

(in general)
Vocals like Large Diaphragm
Fiddles like Small Diaphragm
I prefer Ribbon microphones for Fiddle, but a decent ribbon starts around $300.
And you need an extra preamplifier (like a cloudlifter for $125 used)

Actually I now record everything (voice, guitar, fiddle, mando, horns,...) with ribbons now.

I think you could get a decent Large diaphragm on craigslist for around $120 that will be good for now.
A lot can be done with mic placement and where you setup in your room to make it work for the fiddle.

Let us know about where you are in California and I'll check craigslist for you.

--ken mort

jefferylong - Posted - 11/17/2018:  09:29:05

What about live recording? I have a Zoom video stereo recorder that does pretty good but hard to pick up everything in a large jam. Anyone have any good experiences with live recording with minimal equipment. Something portable without a lot of mics and cords that would interfere with the jam?

DougD - Posted - 11/17/2018:  09:41:41

Ken - Good to hear from you again! Been wondering how you were. Well, I hope.

Edited by - DougD on 11/17/2018 09:43:05

KenMort - Posted - 11/19/2018:  20:36:10

Hey Doug ! Haven't been playing the fiddle much.
But I have thought about getting all the field recordings embedded into Bayard pdf.
And getting my Jim Bryner home recordings back up on the web.

Jeff, Recording Jam Sessions
Really hard if you're also playing.

Usually the best is if they are in a circle to have two omni's in the middle.
One at guitar height and one at fiddle height.
I've done that with my zoom H4n and it worked well.
I strap the zoom to the bottom of the stand pointing up with the built-in mics set at 120 degrees.
And two omni's (Rode NT5) plugged into the rear ports on the mic stand with a stereo bar set vertically.

I've also been outside a non-circle group and used my H4n with a shotgun plugged in also.
I use the shotgun to grab the soloists.
Mix it down later in Reaper.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/22/2018:  05:27:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by jefferylong

What about live recording? I have a Zoom video stereo recorder that does pretty good but hard to pick up everything in a large jam. Anyone have any good experiences with live recording with minimal equipment. Something portable without a lot of mics and cords that would interfere with the jam?

---

I have pretty mixed results...(perhaps similar to what you are wanting to do) Recording groups can be complicated to get a good balance for many reasons; jams even more so, have some issues not usually addressed, make it less than ideal. The others are not particularly cooperative, or interested in the process, patient. 

For most part,  you probably have to start from certain limitations. 

First I would start with The environment; the room; how do musicians like to sit, who sits where, how far apart; how much distance do you need to cover; how much can you direct them; as well consider room ambience, non-musicians present, other noise that you might not want.  What equipment do you have available? What patterns... Cardioids, Omnis, Figure 8s... how many inputs; limits where can you place the mics. 

There are many different techniques and considerations that can read up on XY, AB, Blumeline; MS... are common, and variation of those for ideas and set-ups; and what might be possible.

Most folks have cardioids; a couple of least interfering easy set-ups, using 2 cardioids -  1.  using two spaced like AB over the top, ceiling drops.    2. other is the ORTF.    For either, you can draw/map pattern as it emerges from mic... and then as relates to musicians position to try to guess most balanced. (keep in mind the inverse square rule) - A bit of extra distance can help balance, but still pay attention to if someone plays a bit louder. 

A few things besides balance... Some of these set-ups you have to get angles and distance to avoid out-phase, comb filtering; especially if you mix it down to mono.  (the above AB or ORTF has least issues).  If using harder stereo, bass notes and vocals should be more in the center. Some of the set-ups can be weak in the low end... small diameter capsules usually work better than large...  for a bass might consider a separate direct input.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 11/22/2018 05:34:42

jefferylong - Posted - 11/22/2018:  06:52:52

alaskafiddler Thanks . . . thats a lot of great information. Will try.

jefferylong - Posted - 11/22/2018:  06:55:05

KenMort How do I set the mics to 120 on the Zoom?

KenMort - Posted - 11/22/2018:  07:58:36

On the H4n
You rotate the capsules so the marks line up on the 120 setting.

On the Q2HD
Change the spread in the software settings. With this unit you need to mount it to the mic stand with the lcd screen facing down so that the mid mic (Cardioid) is facing up.
The mid-side recording of the Q2HD is pretty nice for this kind of stuff.
Unfortunately, you can't record the mid (cardiod) and the side (bi-directional, figure-8) separately. It mixes (m-s matrix) them together to create a stereo output at the spread setting you select in the software.

jefferylong - Posted - 11/22/2018:  08:01:01

KenMort Thanks will try that @ our next Jam. Appreciate your help.

KenMort - Posted - 11/22/2018:  08:06:51

I was looking for some example recordings I have made but I can't seem to find any.
I haven't recorded venues for quite a while.

For musicians in a circle.
I remember the very best results I got was when I used two ribbon microphones (figure-8) setup in Mid-Side pattern.
I was able to post process the the microphones into 4 separate channels to I could lift up volume in any direction. It worked really nice with very little 'comb-filtering'.

And ribbon microphones really sound nice nice on the fiddles and mandolins.
Personally, I think nothing beats ribbons for those instruments.

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/22/2018:  08:24:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenMort

And ribbon microphones really sound nice nice on the fiddles and mandolins.

Personally, I think nothing beats ribbons for those instruments.

---

Agreed. Also, nothing beats a ribbon mic for fragilitythus I would probably not take a ribbon mic to a jam, let alone two of them. I'd set them up in a private setting, but I don't think that is what Mr Long is recording. They are also not the $100 mic the OP mentioned, but they are great sounding for our high frequency instruments.

I liked those Bryner recordings  btw, used to visit them regularly way back when. Please let us know if you make them public again.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 11/22/2018 08:25:53

KenMort - Posted - 11/22/2018:  08:25:02

ohhh, forgot to mention

You can also do this with multi-pattern Condensor microphones by switching them to figure-8 pattern.

Technically, what I did above is neither M-S or Blenheim because I processed the signals completely differently. But the configuration of the positioning the mics looks like either of those techniques.

KenMort - Posted - 11/22/2018:  10:06:36

Yes, care is needed with ribbons. They also pick up hum from magnetic fields which can screw you if you don't have non ribbons with you as a back up.

I spoke with Mr long before this thread was hijacked to recording decided. He is probably going with se-X1s, which is a solid choice for his need and budget.

Jim Byner tapes
I will make this a priority and post in a new thread as I make progress.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/22/2018:  11:56:11

I got quite good results from a couple of SE-R1 ribbon mics, in a Blumlein pair arrangement,( a good sounding room is a must), and a couple of Shure FP11 pre amps,(battery powered), straight into an old M-Audio Delta44 Sound card cost was around £275 for the mics pre amps and soundcard, (all second hand).... got to make sure that its balanced throughout or you will get hum..... since sold the mics, but still have the pre amps, and sound card which i like a lot had great fun with that setup for a while

Edit: i reckon as much goes into setting up the ribbons on these things as goes into fitting a bridge to a fiddle... and matching the transformers, pre amps etc is all touchy feely magic imo, and gets a great sound.....if you are prepared to study and experiment...it's an art...

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 11/22/2018 12:06:28

DougD - Posted - 11/22/2018:  12:39:07

Pete (straying further off topic) - I used an m-audio Delta 66 card for several years with good results. I used it mostly for analog to digital transfers and transfers from DAT for editing in the computer, but I also have a Symetrix SX202 dual preamp, which is really very good.
Mike Seeger once told me he liked ribbon mics for recording fiddle based old time music, because they were mellower than condensers. I do have a couple ribbons, but I don't think I'm likely to take an RCA 44B to a jam, for a lot of reasons!

Edited by - DougD on 11/22/2018 12:46:31

pete_fiddle - Posted - 11/22/2018:  13:25:00

in the right situations i don't think a good old ribbon mic can be beat, these modern ones with neodymium magnets etc, have higher output than the old ones,(size for size) but i don't think audio transformer technology has kept up, ( hence the prices of good audio transformers still ), i still like the idea of a couple of magnets, a well fitted ribbon,a good transformer, and a well designed housing....(wish i'd bought a load of em when they went "out of fashion" ), then i guess its all down to the pre-amp, gain stages, sound card ....software...sound guy....etc...etc..all good fun if you've got the time/money/inclination, ......i still think there's magic in there too though :0)...

DougD - Posted - 11/22/2018:  13:41:34

For those who might want to hear a ribbon mic, here are a couple examples. The attachment (someehat atypical) is a Beyer M260. The Youtubes are an RCA 44B, picking up vocals, guitar, banjo and bass (we only used three mics for that record). A great analog tape recorder too.

youtu.be/zkSyrPx4-PA
youtu.be/kEXgTSrpDTQ

The Coo Coo

 

jefferylong - Posted - 11/22/2018:  15:40:55

DougD Wow! I didn’t know I was talking to one of my musical idols? You guys are who I learned some of my favorite Looney Tunes from . . . “You Ain’t Talkin To Me”, “Devilish Mary”, and “Hopalong Peter!”

WOW, THANKS!

DougD - Posted - 11/23/2018:  06:45:29

You're welcome, Jeff. BTW, if you sing "You Ain't Talking to Me" you might be interested to know that the third verse, about hunting with Jake and the bear, was written by Mac Benford, our banjo player. Jake is Mac's son. The song seemed a little short otherwise. We did that sort of thing with a lot of numbers, and its neat to see that some of them have entered tradition.

jefferylong - Posted - 11/23/2018:  09:19:16

DougD Thats great! We love the silly tunes . . . actually I’m kind of a collector of those . . . have a whole section devoted to them in my Songbook. They’re always a crowd pleaser . . . folks seem to like them the best. I’ve done your “You Ain’t Talkin to Me” many times in many places along with “Hopalong Peter” and “Devilish Mary”.
Now that I know who wrote it, I’ll have a little extra fodder to go along with it.
If you’re ever over our way on a Thursday night, stop in and pick with us. We have a jam every Thursday night here in Jackson @ the IHOP right off I-40. It would be an honor to have you.

jefferylong - Posted - 11/23/2018:  09:41:23

DougD Did y’all write “Who Broke the Lock” too? Our guitar & banjo picker has been doing that one for years.

DougD - Posted - 11/23/2018:  14:21:51

No, we didn't write either of those, Jeff - Mac just added a third verse to the song as Charlie Poole did it.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 11/26/2018:  11:38:24

So I'm on a mac and I have a little apogee ONE that allows me to plug in my bartlett mic (which requires phantom power) directly into that. I use GarageBand and have no problems with latency. If I use audacity, I end up with latency. Works pretty well for what I do. I usually