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Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/15/2008: 09:23:15
After reading some of these post It seems most people dont differentiate between reading music and music theory.
Reading music is a small part of music theory.
Depending on what your goals are it could be a very important step in reaching your objective or a tiny one.
If you want to play like Mark O,Connor and play the same solos and variations over and over again then reading music can be very helpful.
However if you want to make it up as you go and STILL play as well as mark then it helps to learn improvisational theory.
Being able to improvise off the top of your head and make it sound polished and rehearsed IS THE ART FORM IN MUSIC.
If this is what your trying to do then you should learn improvisational theory which may have NOTHING to do with reading music.
Improvisational theory is knowing what notes are in each chord, knowing what note you are playing at any given time and where it fits in the chord you happen to be in at the time. For an example, a 6th, or a 9th, etc...
Its knowing what a 1, 4, 5 progression is, the notes in common with all three chords. Playing 5/4 against 3/4, modes, syncopation's and it gets very deep.
However you dont need to read music to learn all this.
The last word on theory.
Learn everything you can. Learn all the different ways. Then forget it all and find your own way.
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
The KIDD - Posted - 09/15/2008: 10:21:01
Hey Gang,
After 15 yrs of teaching banjo &guitar Ive learned that how everyone acquires their building blocks of a working theory knowledge can vary greatly..I used to have a one size fits all method thinking that everyone understands the math and what # s and bs really mean with their relationship to the key , the # system, scale modes,and on and on..WRONG!!! 
..I personally think learning chord theory for each key and using the # system are the best simple tools for developing good inprov skills. These bits of knowledge seem to sub -conciously surface during a time your feelin GOOD and pickin with good players who are bring out your best chops..I know over labor day weekend I was playin stuff I know I cant reproduce here in the studio on my best day..The total workings of this process is still a mystery to me..BUT, having the theory knowedge is at least a good communicating tool and I know I could not play the jazz/swing stuff with out it. (thats me personally)
John
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/15/2008: 11:10:09
There are very few great players that don't have any idea what notes they are playing. Vassar Clements (fiddler)
is actually the only good player I can think of that is clueless.
But then Vassar improvises by pulling a limited amount of licks out of a bag of tricks that he practices on continuously. Not quiet the same thing as spontaneous improvisation.
Its more like piecing together a bunch of licks like Earl Scruggs.
After hearing you play I have no doubt that you are well versed in music theory.
You are a very good player.
Wished you lived closer.
quote:
Originally posted by The KIDD
Hey Gang,
After 15 yrs of teaching banjo &guitar Ive learned that how everyone acquires their building blocks of a working theory knowledge can vary greatly..I used to have a one size fits all method thinking that everyone understands the math and what # s and bs really mean with their relationship to the key , the # system, scale modes,and on and on..WRONG!!! ..I personally think learning chord theory for each key and using the # system are the best simple tools for developing good inprov skills. These bits of knowledge seem to sub -conciously surface during a time your feelin GOOD and pickin with good players who are bring out your best chops..I know over labor day weekend I was playin stuff I know I cant reproduce here in the studio on my best day..The total workings of this process is still a mystery to me..BUT, having the theory knowedge is at least a good communicating tool and I know I could not play the jazz/swing stuff with out it. (thats me personally)
John
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
scrubber - Posted - 09/15/2008: 11:15:24
quote:
Originally posted by Vinny Ray
Learn everything you can. Learn all the different ways. Then forget it all and find your own way.
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
It would seem to me that finding one's own way would be a step shorter that what you have expounded, Vinny Ray!
The thing so many people forget about theory is that it
follows practice. Music theory is a way of explaining what musicians do when they make music, and therefore, though usefu in learning what has 'come before' it is not 'cutting edge' -- when it comes to 'real time' performance, one is better off doing what comes 'naturally' and leaving the theory to the pedagogues who admire it...
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/15/2008: 11:54:22
I agree, the path can be as short as you want it to be.
There is no sense taking 5 steps to learn theory when your journey is only 2 steps.
Theory does explain what went on before.
It also explains what is happening in the moment and constructing what is to come. It is also a tool for coordinating what is going to happen with other players.
It exist whether you ignore it or not.
Theory is not something that is supposed to be "enjoyed"
It is a tool for understanding/learning music. The more you understand the more you can play.
When I am improvising I dont consciously think about theory at all.
I think more in terms of color, tension, release...
However at any given time I can stop and look at the note I am playing and know instantly what note I am playing and its relationship to the chord we are in.
Learning theory is a lot like learning a computer.
Anyone can surf and write emails. But when something goes wrong or unexpected can you fix it? No. You have to call in the theory guy.
He understands what is wrong. And then after he fixes it he makes your computer even better and points out other things that could give you problems in the future.
Imagine how well his computer works.
Ignorance might be bliss, but rarely does it produce good music.
Do you have any music we can listen to? I would love to hear an example of your "non-theory" improvisational skills.
I have met very few good ones. This is very fascinating for me.
I would love to meet another!
Be warned though I may talk your ear off.
[/quote]
It would seem to me that finding one's own way would be a step shorter that what you have expounded, Vinny Ray!
The thing so many people forget about theory is that it follows practice. Music theory is a way of explaining what musicians do when they make music, and therefore, though usefu in learning what has 'come before' it is not 'cutting edge' -- when it comes to 'real time' performance, one is better off doing what comes 'naturally' and leaving the theory to the pedagogues who admire it...
[/quote]
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
bj - Posted - 09/15/2008: 12:09:36
Well, Vinnie. Others have come onto this messageboard and made pronouncements about music as well. But you're on a messageboard where many, if not most, of the folks here play oldtime. That's an oral (or aural) tradition. I have a feeling a fair few of the great oldtime players didn't have a lot of music theory knowledge. They just played. And I have a feeling that a lot of folks would argue about whether they did their "improv" (isnt that a jazz word? ;-) ) poorly or not . . .
Some people have to study music theory to achieve the ability to improvise. Others don't. I'm glad I've always had the innate ability. And I'm sorry if you're someone who doesn't.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
musekatcher - Posted - 09/15/2008: 12:58:09
quote:
Originally posted by bj
But you're on a messageboard where many, if not most, of the folks here play oldtime. That's an oral (or aural) tradition. I
Well lets be fair, all fiddling is not American, Southern, old-time Anglo-centric, and other sub species. I think of fiddling as anti-establishment and anti-Eurostocracy (read non-classical). So Klezmer, Gypsy, Down East, American Indian, are all examples of fiddling too me, and they are all aural. I'm fully devoted to old-time fiddling of the Deep South and its subsidiaries, but that's me. I like to hear from all the others too.
Jim Holland
Athens, AL
bj - Posted - 09/15/2008: 13:09:01
quote:
Well lets be fair, all fiddling is not American, Southern, old-time Anglo-centric,
I stand corrected BUT I would argue with you about oldtime being Anglo-centric or Southern-centric. There's a fine African American tradition within oldtime fiddling, as well as oldtime traditions outside of the South.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Edited by - bj on 09/15/2008 13:15:44
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/15/2008: 14:14:12
I didn't see anything here about it being "a forum for old time fiddling".
Although I am familiar with the style. I have won several old time state fiddling championships over the years. Most recently the local county fair a few weeks ago. I am exposed to many top old time players. I have yet to see one "improv".
"Improv" isnt just a jazz word. Its a music word.
And its not something a majority of old time players ever advance to.
If I were to try and "improv" at an old time fiddle contest I would be disqualified. I have tried it.
I guess I missed the tunes where you were improvising so I dont know if you have "the innate ability" or not. I will have to take your word on that one.
Try to keep in mind that fiddle forums are generally for discussing fiddle and fiddle playing. We are here to try and learn from other players. Share ideas, experiences.
If you take offense whenever someone offers advice your not going to get far.
Instead think of it as an opportunity to learn and discuss.
Just in case your interested I was improvising well and winning fiddle contest 10-12 years before I knew anything about theory or reading music.
I wish I had not waited so long before learning what it was I was doing.
I dont say anything here that I wouldnt tell a student of mine.
If their bow work stinks I will tell them about it and help find a way to fix it.
Its my job to help my students improve, not build their egos.
I will not help someone live and hide behind inaccurate self perceptions. That helps no one.
quote:
Originally posted by bj
Well, Vinnie. Others have come onto this messageboard and made pronouncements about music as well. But you're on a messageboard where many, if not most, of the folks here play oldtime. That's an oral (or aural) tradition. I have a feeling a fair few of the great oldtime players didn't have a lot of music theory knowledge. They just played. And I have a feeling that a lot of folks would argue about whether they did their "improv" (isnt that a jazz word? ;-) ) poorly or not . . .
Some people have to study music theory to achieve the ability to improvise. Others don't. I'm glad I've always had the innate ability. And I'm sorry if you're someone who doesn't.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Edited by - Vinny Ray on 09/15/2008 14:25:20
janepaints - Posted - 09/15/2008: 14:40:37
I agree with much of what you said, Vinny Ray.
The only 'formal' music study I ever had was with two masters of afro-american music. Saxophonist Jackie McLean (veteran of Miles, Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk etc.) and pianist/composer Billy Gault (from Sun Ra's Arkestra). It was only partially 'booklearning'--it was also playing. Constant playing.
I remain a TERRIBLE sight-reader--I seem to have a 'localized dyslexia' concerning musical notation, specifically with how rythmn is notated. But at Jackie & Billy's class I learned how to read/write 'number charts' & chord charts lickety-split. Got a notion of how melody, chords and riddum endlessly intertwine.
Their 'Afro-American Music Workshop' especially provided an understanding (and love) of harmonic structure, which has served me well in playing/approaching ANY genre/style of music. The ability to quickly recognize/identify intervals & changes was developed. What they called 'Big Ears'--"ya gotta get big ears". Their workshop made students comfortable with transposition, playing any song in any key desired. Also with overlapping/co-inciding time structures.
Aside: Jackie and Billie both DETESTED the word 'jazz', which derives from 'jizz' aka Yes THAT meaning of 'jizz': music from brothels. Though they called their class 'Afro Amercian Music Workshop', they made their students aware that it's basically a classical music--'formal' in nature--but built upon much-different harmonic & rhythmic concepts than 'Western Tradition' classical music.
(BTW I consider OT to also be, in part, a formal music. A homespun & plain-song 'Chamber Music' which almost anyone can learn and participate in.)
Tho it might seem odd, I constantly make use of stuff that J & B taught, even when playing the simplest & most-basic OT fiddle-n-banjo stuff.
There are many, many paths to good playing, regardless of genre or 'learning'. As many as there are players. Melvin Wine, for instance, was IMO every bit the Master Musician as Jackie & Billy, despite the huge differences between his music/world/aims and theirs.
All three shared many characteristics: they were KEEN listeners and really, REALLY into sound, pure sound... could spot-and-adjust-to tiny details in a tune swiftly and accurately. Were generous and giving of their music, ideas & know-how. All three: groove masters. All three: VERY spiritual people. Servants of the muse, literally. All three: open to sounds and styles beyond their own province. Little 'attitude' in evidence.
Hee Hee. One night I noticed an official-looking document taped to Melvin's wall, half-buried beneath drawings by grandkids and great-grandkids. It was signed by a US President!! Bush #1, if memory serves. I asked Melvin about it:
"Oh yeah, they invited me to the White House--twice!--for supper and to play fiddle. One time there was a colored fella there too, his name was BD King or BT King, BB King-- something like that. You ever heard of him? Wow, does he ever play great electric guitar!"
Melvin had big ears. HUGE ears.
The proof is always in the pudding. Tho, IMO, the more we understand about how music works the better; I've heard and played with AMAZING players who know nothing of theory--and dreadful players who could write theory textbooks. And all variants in-between.
Speaking of books about music: Victor Wooten plays bass with Bela Fleck (and a zillion other people). He's written a way-cool book about music that any musician, of any style or instrument, might love & benefit from. It's kind of a mind-blower.
The Music Lesson--A Spiritual Search For Growth Through Music. (Berkley/Penguin, 2008)
No knowledge of music theory required to read it. No ability to read or write notation neccessary. No matter if ya dig & play Mozart, Monroe, Monk, Molsky Or Muddy: it has stuff for ya. I GUARANTEE that it'll affect how you create sound via yer fiddle (or banjo, geetar, tuba, kazoo or ocarina.) It's a dang good'un. Check it out.
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Lesson-...p/0425220931
Vinny Ray, these words of yours I LOVED THE MOST...YAY and AMEN and DITTO :
"Learn everything you can. Learn all the different ways. Then forget it all and find your own way."
Edited by - janepaints on 09/15/2008 14:52:36
woodwiz - Posted - 09/15/2008: 15:13:04
>>>"Learn everything you can. Learn all the different ways. Then forget it all and find your own way."<<<
That's almost a paraphrase of something Charlie Parker said, and that I took to heart. Can't remember the exact quote.
Vinny Ray - I agree with you, because I do improvise - behind singers, and playing blues and a little swing. I try to play as many scales and arpeggios as I can, in all the keys, and I understand about chord construction. Takes a looooong time to get it down to where it's automatic, but it certainly does open doors.
There are a lot of OT fiddlers here who haven't any interest in improv, but I think there are quite a few like me, as well. My main focus is Missouri OT, but all different styles come up in the jams I go to, and I like the opportunity to stretch a bit. Plus I love jazz, swing, and blues.
It's especially gratifying to hear a song for the first time, and play a good break.
Michael R
www.kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"
"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford
bj - Posted - 09/15/2008: 15:15:02
quote:
"Improv" isnt just a jazz word. Its a music word.
And its not something a majority of old time players ever advance to.
If I were to try and "improv" at an old time fiddle contest I would be disqualified. I have tried it.
Then I suggest that you must have pushed your improvisations outside of the tradition. And if you think oldtime musicians don't improvise, don't "color outside the lines" as it were, then I also suggest that maybe you haven't really given oldtime music forms a good listening to. Not to mention that you just insulted most of the participants on this forum.
BTW, there's a term around here. It's called "contest fiddling". You might want to read up on it.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.comMy inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/15/2008: 15:40:20
You are right. I went waaaay outside the melody.
They disqualified me so fast I didnt even get to play my last tune.
However I have noticed that the bigger the contest the more outside you can go. Why do you think this is? Maybe because the caliber of musicians increase with the bigger prize money and everyone else is doing it?
As I said before, there is a HUGE difference between improvising and performing rehearsed variations you spent 6 months practicing on.
If you have an idea of what you are going to play before the tune begins then it is not improvisation. Regardless of whether you play 2 variations or 20.
Improvisations are not about how many variations you can play without stopping. Its about what you can make up off the top of your head a split second before you actually play it.
Like all other art forms, it has to do with your imagination and creativity.
Now you have to put in the years of jamming/improvising to make it sound good. Most musicians never reach this point. Even fewer violinist.
"color outside the lines" is not improvisation. Its called playing an instrument.
Why would people be insulted with my post.?
Old time fiddling is not about improvisation.
I bet the swing and jazz players that have been agreeing with me all along are not insulted. They know what I am talking about.
I am familiar with contest fiddling. I have won more than a dozen State fiddling Championships. and judged many more than that.
And I have heard ALL the variations and none of it is improvising.
Neither was mine.
Do you really think someone is going to take a chance on improvising and screwing up in a contest?
Hence, the endless rehearsed variations.
By the way in the contest I have been to there are big differences between old time fiddling and contest fiddling.
You might want to read up on that.
quote:
Originally posted by bj
quote:
"Improv" isnt just a jazz word. Its a music word.
And its not something a majority of old time players ever advance to.
If I were to try and "improv" at an old time fiddle contest I would be disqualified. I have tried it.
Then I suggest that you must have pushed your improvisations outside of the tradition. And if you think oldtime musicians don't improvise, don't "color outside the lines" as it were, then I also suggest that maybe you haven't really given oldtime music forms a good listening to. Not to mention that you just insulted most of the participants on this forum.
BTW, there's a term around here. It's called "contest fiddling". You might want to read up on it.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Edited by - Vinny Ray on 09/15/2008 15:47:53
janepaints - Posted - 09/15/2008: 17:02:35
quote:
Originally posted by Vinny Ray
[
Old time fiddling is not about improvisation.
Hi Vinny
Well, your approach and mine diverge here.
May I, respectfully, suggest that perhaps you might better-phrase it something like this:
"MY sense is that OT fiddle is not about improvisation" or perhaps "What is generally-construed as 'OT Fiddle' does not jibe with the kind of improvisation which I do"
Something like that. Ya know?
For me, OT fiddle and OT music are (in part) very, VERY much about improvisation. Different forms of improvisation than employed in jazz, funk, 'free jazz' et., but improvisation nonetheless. Were OT fiddle and OT music lacking in improvisational possibilities, they'd appeal much, MUCH less to my musical sensibility. I like to walk the tightrope, discover something new at every pass. But I also prefer to do so within more-minimalistic settings. Poem rather than Novel. Nuance rather than comprehensive statement. But that's MY sense of this. Everybody has their own unique version, IMO. Some are kindred, some are less-kindred.
Oblique & Skewed In-Closing Anecdote. One Moment In The Zen Of Lester Young:
The great saxophonist, a master improviser, was soloing. Blowing his brains out. Suddenly he stopped playing, mid-solo. Bandmates asked "Hey Lester, why'd ya stop? What's wrong?"
Lester replied:
"I forgot the words" :)
Edited by - janepaints on 09/15/2008 17:06:31
OTJunky - Posted - 09/15/2008: 17:38:42
quote:
Originally posted by Vinny Ray
There are very few great players that don't have any idea what notes they are playing. Vassar Clements (fiddler)
is actually the only good player I can think of that is clueless.
But then Vassar improvises by pulling a limited amount of licks out of a bag of tricks that he practices on continuously. Not quiet the same thing as spontaneous improvisation.
Its more like piecing together a bunch of licks like Earl Scruggs.
To be fair to Vassar, you'd have to comment that that's pretty much how Bluegrass improvisation was done during the time that Vassar was making a living with his fiddle.
And, while you can name other fiddlers, that were thought to be his equal in that genre, it's hard to name one that was better at it.
Another way to look at it is that he gave his audience exactly what they wanted to hear - and nobody ever asked for their money back.
I've a feeling he could do more than that though. He played a now "legendary" concert in Boston back in the 70's. He showed, up but his backup band didn't - the usual Bus breakdown I guess.
I wasn't there, but people still talk about it. The story goes that he just came out on stage, sat down in a chair, and said, "Looks like my band's not going to make it, so if you don't mind I'll just play some fiddle for you."
Then he kept the audience spell-bound for almost an hour until the backup band arrived - and the audience wasn't happy to see them.
I don't know whether it was improvisation or not - but the man had something going when he fiddled.
And nobody in that audience asked for their money back...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 09/15/2008 17:48:50
DougD - Posted - 09/15/2008: 18:07:59
Charlie Parker also said "I lit my fire, I greased my skillet, and I cooked."
mikey - Posted - 09/15/2008: 19:43:50
quote:
Originally posted by woodwiz
>>>"Learn everything you can. Learn all the different ways. Then forget it all and find your own way."<<<
I totally subscribe to this idea. It doesn't matter where or how you learn the theory, but it has to be learned somewhere. The funny thing is about reading music, is that its impossible to learn to read without learning the theory.
Reading music by itself is over rated, but theory is not. Another funny thing about reading music is its really simple and grade school children learn to do it. Why do people spend more time arguing about than learning to do it?
MIKEY
Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else
nofrets - Posted - 09/15/2008: 20:18:43
When I heard John Hartford play OT fiddle tunes, he never played them the same way. It's not jazz, but it is improvisational. I'm not sure he could play the tune the same way twice if he wanted to. I'd love to be able to do this and am working on it as I study Irish fiddle.
janepaints - Posted - 09/15/2008: 20:26:53
quote:
Originally posted by nofrets
When I heard John Hartford play OT fiddle tunes, he never played them the same way. It's not jazz, but it is improvisational. I'm not sure he could play the tune the same way twice if he wanted to.
You said it WAY better than my attempts to say similar...
...using about 1/100th the amount a words! :)
TankerTom - Posted - 09/16/2008: 07:55:33
Im no theory or fiddle expert but i learn all i can. i think theory is cool and fun when you understand some thing you dident before its like a light coming on. I have played music my whole life but havent played anything but fiddle the last 2 and 1/2 years.i never could understand how not knowing something could help your play or knowing it could hurt.So keep talking theory vinny im learning. But try not to insalt the folks who dont want to learn
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/16/2008: 08:45:34
I am not saying anything bad about Vassar.
I said he was one of the good players I knew of that had no theory knowledge at all. At least he talked like he didnt.
I was well acquainted with Vassar. I have jammed with him several times. I remember a couple of "all nighters" at a few Bluegrass Festivals and have sat down with him and worked up tunes at his house and at mine. So I am very familiar with his "bag of licks"
I also remember him talking about how he gets tired of hearing himself play the same thing all the time.
It always sounded great to me though.
To me, he was my favorite Bluegrass musician and I have learned a lot from him. Especially when it comes to phrasing.
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
]To be fair to Vassar, you'd have to comment that that's pretty much how Bluegrass improvisation was done during the time that Vassar was making a living with his fiddle.
And, while you can name other fiddlers, that were thought to be his equal in that genre, it's hard to name one that was better at it.
Another way to look at it is that he gave his audience exactly what they wanted to hear - and nobody ever asked for their money back.
I've a feeling he could do more than that though. He played a now "legendary" concert in Boston back in the 70's. He showed, up but his backup band didn't - the usual Bus breakdown I guess.
I wasn't there, but people still talk about it. The story goes that he just came out on stage, sat down in a chair, and said, "Looks like my band's not going to make it, so if you don't mind I'll just play some fiddle for you."
Then he kept the audience spell-bound for almost an hour until the backup band arrived - and the audience wasn't happy to see them.
I don't know whether it was improvisation or not - but the man had something going when he fiddled.
And nobody in that audience asked for their money back...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Edited by - Vinny Ray on 09/16/2008 08:48:04
Hi Strung - Posted - 09/16/2008: 08:57:50
quote:
Originally posted by Vinny Ray
After reading some of these post It seems most people dont differentiate between reading music and music theory.
Reading music is a small part of music theory.
Depending on what your goals are it could be a very important step in reaching your objective or a tiny one.
If you want to play like Mark O,Connor and play the same solos and variations over and over again then reading music can be very helpful.
However if you want to make it up as you go and STILL play as well as mark then it helps to learn improvisational theory.
Being able to improvise off the top of your head and make it sound polished and rehearsed IS THE ART FORM IN MUSIC.
If this is what your trying to do then you should learn improvisational theory which may have NOTHING to do with reading music.
Improvisational theory is knowing what notes are in each chord, knowing what note you are playing at any given time and where it fits in the chord you happen to be in at the time. For an example, a 6th, or a 9th, etc...
Its knowing what a 1, 4, 5 progression is, the notes in common with all three chords. Playing 5/4 against 3/4, modes, syncopation's and it gets very deep.
However you dont need to read music to learn all this.
The last word on theory.
Learn everything you can. Learn all the different ways. Then forget it all and find your own way.
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
Please tell me this isn't another one of those "newbie know-it-all here to tell the rest of us we don't know how to play and will never win contests like he does unless we follow him" is it? I feel like I was just insulted.
I got caught fiddlin'' around
Vinny Ray - Posted - 09/16/2008: 09:23:37
Its interesting to note that the only people here to take offense at my postings are the only people here who have no music to listen to.
Please tell me this isn't another one of those "newbie know-it-all here to tell the rest of us we don't know how to play and will never win contests like he does unless we follow him" is it? I feel like I was just insulted.
I got caught fiddlin'' around
[/quote]
http://www.Fusiontunes.net
OTJunky - Posted - 09/16/2008: 09:33:31
Ok - everybody calm down.
We're not supposed to engage in personal attacks and everybody's entitled to post - whether or not they've uploaded music or even whether or not they play.
So, I'm calling this one even for the moment - same number of barbs thrown from both directions.
Now, let's get back to discussing fiddling....
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 09/16/2008 09:37:52
TimK - Posted - 09/16/2008: 09:48:21
Vinny, welcome to the FH. While I tend to agree with much of what you say, you could say it in a more diplomatic manner. To those who have taken offence to his postings, you might consider What he is saying rather than How he is saying it.
Remembe folks, you catch more flys with honey than with a fly swatter and if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything 
Now lets all get out our fiddles, form a circle and play Kumbyah 
TimK
_______________________________________________________________
Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/18/2008: 23:59:45
quote:
Originally posted by Vinny Ray
I didn't see anything here about it being "a forum for old time fiddling".
Although I am familiar with the style.
On one hand, it's not labelled that way-
(Eric would like it to be a really BIG fiddle forum)
BUT that seems to be who shows up and posts the most.
There are other fiddle forums that cater at least somewhat to
other styles, but there is no fiddle forum that really seems to
draw the Old Time crowd.
A big reason is that the Banjo Hangout came first,
and a lot of their clawhammer players also play fiddle, or would like to-
and the Banjo Hangout people got a heads-up about this one like
a week after it opened- so we Old Time types got a head start here.
Of course, there are bluegrass banjo players over at the Banjo Hangout too, and it's no surprise that bluegrass players are fairly
well represented.
There are players in a lot of other styles, but they tend to lurk,
there aren't many threads in their styles.
I tried to get some different style threads going last year,
but they mostly petered out pretty quick.
It might help if there were topic areas for different styles.
It's true, most Old Time fiddlers don't know much theory-
it's not necessary. I learned a little theory when I was a teenager.
When I started trying to do improv on electric guitar 8 years ago it started coming in really handy, so I can see what you're sayin' is true.
But when I play Old Time fiddle tunes, I pretty much shut that part of my brain off.
If you're persistent and keep posting, you might be able to draw out some lurkers in other styles.
Michael
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/19/2008: 01:12:31
Hmmm...
I just read to the end of the thread.
Actually, I <do> do something when playing Old Time fiddle that's <related> to improvising-
sometimes. On a tune I really know well and have played a long time, spontaneous variations
can creep in... but it's so limited compared to my improvising on guitar that someone could
hear it and not be aware that I was improvising- because it does stick really close to the melody-
and if I LIKE that variation, I tend to fossilize it into a repeated form of the melody-
so once again, it's barely improvisation at all.
For one thing, it always stays within the contours or shape of the traditional tune.
It's like getting in a swimming pool, but hanging off of the edge the whole time,
and then saying you went swimming! Yeah, <kind> of! But not really!
When I'm really improvising, that goes out the window.
All I have is a chord background and a scale or scales to work from-
within that scale, there's really no telling what's going to happen-
it could be low, high, long notes, short notes.
It is very freeing, and seems to use a very different part of my brain-
I really literally don't know what note I'm going to play next sometimes!
For me, the freedom in Old Time fiddle tunes comes in phrasing and rhythm-
I've got enough bowing patterns smooth and comfy that it's pretty easy to tweak
the rhythm in various ways, and that keeps me from getting bored.
Yes Vinnie is new here, but he's NOT a newbie fiddler-
he's a pro. He has a lot to offer.
And he's not any more abrasive than many of the Old Time fiddlers here-
have we ever talked about CURMUDGEONS here? ;^)
Could we OT types be getting a taste of our own medicine and not liking it?
And I don't think he's trying to be mean or insulting- that's just the way he talks.
One thing I've seen about successful forums or newsgroups, music ones anyway-
they have to work on at least two levels.
Some groups are all beginners to intermediates, no one really has any depth of knowledge,
and sometimes, if someone does have some knowledge and tries to share it, they get shut out.
No one responds to their posts, and they leave.
Other groups tend to be all advanced players, and they have this tendency to be clubby-
there is no new blood- after a while, no real conversation takes place, because you've
heard the other members' rants before.
I've found that a group that's going to be successful over time has to work on two levels-
it has to welcome beginners- they're the new blood, and they are the ones who ask questions that draw the experts out and get them thinking, sometimes in new ways even for them.
But the beginners also have to be tolerant of the advanced people "talking over their heads"
sometimes- otherwise the advanced people get bored, they give and give and give,
and nobody says anything new that THEY can learn from, so they burn out, and leave.
A lot of this is like family dynamics-
children give the parents a focus and something to talk about,
but if the kids <dominate> the conversation completely, it's not good-
it drives the parents crazy, and the kids never hear anything really
challenging.
Anyway, I'm enjoying what Vinnie has to say-
please don't run him off, okay???
Also, I think it's good to keep in mind,
that whoever starts a thread is sticking their neck out, taking a risk.
What happens when NOBODY can think of anything new to say here?
It's a disaster! Starting threads is a tough job, but someone has to do it.
When someone starts a thread I think it's good to show them some extra
respect, sort of like you'd show the host of a party- the person that starts a thread
is doing us a favor.
If it's a beginner, make sure they got their questions answered to their satisfaction
before going off on tangents. If it's someone more advanced, hear them out a bit
before disagreeing violently. And if you don't like a thread, there is always the option
of sitting it out. Let them draw out some people that are like minded and have a little party-
don't spoil it for them. Hopefully they'll show you the same kindness.
Also, keep in mind that really this isn't OUR Fiddle Hangout-
Eric Schlange is throwing this party for us, and he's footing the bill.
Suppose Vinnie attracts every single gigging Country fiddler to
the Fiddle Hangout. That wouldn't be a bad thing-
we could just divide into topic areas, the Hangout would grow,
there'd be more advertisers, Eric would be happy, have drawings again and add new features. Win-win situation.
Michael
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 09/19/2008: 08:21:13
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Yes Vinnie is new here, but he's NOT a newbie fiddler-
he's a pro. He has a lot to offer.
[...]
Anyway, I'm enjoying what Vinnie has to say-
[...]
And if you don't like a thread, there is always the option
of sitting it out.
[...]we could just divide into topic areas, the Hangout would grow,
there'd be more advertisers, Eric would be happy, have drawings again and add new features. Win-win situation.
A-MEN. But rather than saying I "enjoy," I would say I'm more "grateful" for what Vinny is teaching me. AFAIC, it's free lessons from a professional musician.
Nikolas - Posted - 09/20/2008: 10:39:06
Hi, I'm new here and very much a newb with improv on violin. I played for around 15 years and then stopped for 20 years. I just picked it up again two years ago and really have gotten back into it albeit my chops are painful.
I agree with what Vinny is saying and his approach. I am a guitar player as well. and that has always been my approach to understanding improvisation. It needs a foundation from which you draw your selection. It is more than a series of established licks. True improvisation is an amazing thing that someday I hope I can achieve. The best fiddle improvisor that I ever saw live had to be Grappelli.
Vinny - nice work on your website.
My recordings for your ear bleeding enjoyment.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/def...ontent=music
Edited by - Nikolas on 09/20/2008 10:43:22
FiddleJammer - Posted - 09/23/2008: 08:12:09
I'm going to weigh in on Vinny's side here. This doesn't have to be an either/or discussion. Theory is part of learning and can't be anything but another tool in the gig bag. Thanks for taking the time, Vinny.
As for OT not using theory, well, the moment the decision is made to stay in D for awhile, music theory is in the works. You don't have to know what the 1 and 5 note of a scale is, it can be intuitive. But, if it's all intuitive, it's hard to share and talk about.
I've still got lots to learn, Vinny. Keep the info coming.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Edited by - FiddleJammer on 09/23/2008 21:34:40
Hi Strung - Posted - 09/23/2008: 08:58:37
Well, my instructor understands the theory, but I'm do believe I'll wait a while longer before I try such a feat. Intermediate class here I come! 
God put a fiddle in my hands
and told me to play.
scrubber - Posted - 09/23/2008: 11:03:51
What is 'the jist' of all this talk? Beats can be subdivided into as many divisions as you can imagine (e.g., 2, 3 4 ,5 ,6 7, etc..). What, then, does one do with all of these sub-divisions?
Having studied composition for many years, I've always felt that improvisation should emphasize musical aspects over technical ones. So you can superimpose 7 over 4 -- what does that mean in a musical context?
I'm not suggesting that this type of rhythmic prowess doesn't have its place, only that, in some situations, this kind of display is more about 'what I can do' and not about the music....
Grinesh - Posted - 09/23/2008: 14:02:42
nice forum when it comes to something you love you cant stop being passonate about.But I am new to fiddlin I have played in Orchestras for over twenty years but have always been lurkin.So lets help our brother and try to understand where they are comin from oposed to being quick to stomp on them if thats where it was going . Looking for the
Grinesh
Grinesh - Posted - 09/23/2008: 14:02:43
nice forum when it comes to something you love you cant stop being passonate about.But I am new to fiddlin I have played in Orchestras for over twenty years but have always been lurkin.So lets help our brother and try to understand where they are comin from oposed to being quick to stomp on them if thats where it was going . Looking for the
Grinesh
Grinesh - Posted - 09/23/2008: 14:03:45
nice forum when it comes to something you love you cant stop being passonate about.But I am new to fiddlin I have played in Orchestras for over twenty years but have always been lurkin.So lets help our brother and try to understand where they are comin from oposed to being quick to stomp on them if thats where it was going . Looking for the good in all
Grinesh
musekatcher - Posted - 09/24/2008: 06:47:21
quote:
Originally posted by Grinesh
nice forum when it comes to something you love you cant stop being passonate about.But I am new to fiddlin I have played in Orchestras for over twenty years but have always been lurkin.So lets help our brother and try to understand where they are comin from oposed to being quick to stomp on them if thats where it was going . Looking for the good in all
Grinesh
I agree. This one dimensional form of communcation tends to feed misunderstanding. If we give others the benefit of doubt, we can avoid hasty conclusions about attacks, insults, and arrogance that may not be actual.
Jim Holland
Athens, AL
Edited by - musekatcher on 09/24/2008 06:48:05
