fujers - Posted - 02/13/2018:  13:56:54

Dave I maybe wrong but if you call PGmusic you may be able to get what you bought uploaded to you via email. I did that once and it was free of charge. No harm checking it out. Now if not..I have all the music they ever made on a hard drive and I may be able to send you the files. Don't now if I can do it or not these are some big files maybe I can send them by Dropbox or something.

DougD - Posted - 02/13/2018:  14:08:38

bluesmode - is the "swing trio" you're looking for western swing, or just straight jazz? Wouldn't be the Western Flyers? They're pretty good.
Henry - Is it already Valentines Day Down Under? We're still struggling with Mardi Gras here.

DougD - Posted - 02/13/2018:  14:43:32

The Western Flyers: youtu.be/WI1QTQwwCqc

buckhenry - Posted - 02/13/2018:  23:08:11

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

The Western Flyers: youtu.be/WI1QTQwwCqc

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This guys are coming to my town very soon.

yeah, valentines day here...we're always a day ahead of you...

bluesmode - Posted - 02/13/2018:  23:18:34

yup, the Western Flyers. Isn't 'pretty good' a bit of an understatement? Thanks a lot for posting that vid!

davebones - Posted - 02/17/2018:  19:33:39

Thanks DougD for the Western Flyers link. In that youtube vid. listen at 1:40 and you hear her playing through a whole tone scale. Very hip player. Thanks for a great example of swing fiddle.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/20/2018:  00:12:20

quote:

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Originally posted by davebones

 >listen at 1:40 and you hear her playing through a whole tone scale. <

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I finally got around to checking out that whole tone scale, and still having a bit of trouble picking it out. The mike stand is right in front of her hand.

I really like whole tones but haven't really been able to put them to much use at this point. I find them easier to do using open strings in first position rather than diagonally. I run thru them every once in a while starting on open G then starting on Ab. same pattern just up/down a string. I also find that the open strings grounds my ear. I get lost real easy doing them diagonally with that closed semi-tone shift from one string to the next, especially descending.

would like to hear how anyone else does them, open or closed? there are only 2 choices a semi tone apart. How do you decide which one?  

fujers - Posted - 02/20/2018:  12:18:21

Hi Dave, The whole tone scale is primarily a Jazz, Bebop and Swing scale. It creates tension between what you just played and what you are about to play. People like Charlie Parker, Thelonius Monk and Jazz Violinist Jason Arnick all make good use of these scales As you already know by now it's played in whole notes..eg G-A-B-C#-D#-E# or F.

This kind of scale is not readily heard in Bluegrass. Old Time, Folk, Celtic. But if you were an adventurous person you can use this and other ... not normal scales all you want just have to be mindful were you place them. Because of it's harmonic placement and if you play harmonious you may want to think about the use of this scale because it will speak to you very hard. . You play this scale as you would play a dim-aug scale very little right because you can wear out any scale and this scale you don't want to use that often

These type of scales work well with b7-b5-b9 Dim Aug just because you are already playing on the kind of the outside of of normal chord changes. Now If you were playing on the inside of the chord changes I would stay away from this scale and play something more melodious..something that's fits what you are playing..but music being what it is..you can play anything you want..as long as it fits.

Think of this way..if I had one chance to play this scale where would I put it..the beginning..the middle or the end of a phrase. It will catch someones ear and that's exactky what you want to do. But to much of it... you lost your audience. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/20/2018:  20:59:03

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 >play something more melodious <

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nuts to that, I wanna be outside. Waaay outside 

but that still doesn't answer my question. Take a 12 bar in E. does this sound 'right' to anyone?

over the I chord: E F# G# A# C# D# E F#

over the IV chord Eb F G A B Db Eb F

buckhenry - Posted - 02/20/2018:  21:18:36

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesmode

quote:

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Originally posted by davebones

 >listen at 1:40 and you hear her playing through a whole tone scale. <

---

I finally got around to checking out that whole tone scale, and still having a bit of trouble picking it out. The mike stand is right in front of her hand.

I really like whole tones but haven't really been able to put them to much use at this point. I find them easier to do using open strings in first position rather than diagonally. I run thru them every once in a while starting on open G then starting on Ab. same pattern just up/down a string. I also find that the open strings grounds my ear. I get lost real easy doing them diagonally with that closed semi-tone shift from one string to the next, especially descending.

would like to hear how anyone else does them, open or closed? there are only 2 choices a semi tone apart. How do you decide which one?  

---

Scales and arpeggios ground the ear, play them frequently then the notes will be anticipated, include the chromatic scales. Diminished arpeggios helped me with shifting a semi-tone on adjacent strings. After becoming familiar with the sound of the diminished arpeggi try this fingering from low to high string starting first finger then third finger on each string moving back a semi-tone on the change of string. ....C Eb, F# A, C Eb, F# A, and descending. Then try first finger dim arp only on one string, thus E string....F# A C Eb. In each position the dim arp can be played across the strings by shifting a semi-tone as before. The choice of which whole-tone scale maybe determined by the chordal harmony, eg, if  D chord, the notes maybe D E F# G# A# C.

fujers - Posted - 02/20/2018:  21:18:40

Not sure what you ask. You know the out side of playing will make you nuts

buckhenry - Posted - 02/20/2018:  21:27:26

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesmode

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 >play something more melodious <

---

nuts to that, I wanna be outside. Waaay outside 

but that still doesn't answer my question. Take a 12 bar in E. does this sound 'right' to anyone?

over the I chord: E F# G# A# C# D# E F#

over the IV chord Eb F G A B Db Eb F

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I am sure you could make it sound 'right'...But if its supposed to be a whole-tone.....E F# G# A# C D ....?

bluesmode - Posted - 02/20/2018:  21:51:34

woops! Thanks Henry!

fujers - Posted - 02/20/2018:  21:55:11

Henry is right the whole tone consist of a 6 note scale and not 7 and it wouldn't sound right..you have to concider though..there is no note that is out of place... it depends on how you us it

Dave, The scale you suggest E F# G# A# C# D# E F# works with the tonic witch is E. Now you can play.. Jazz or Bebop with dim or aug flat 7's flat 5's and flat 9's At least that works for me. But playing these scales is up to you and how you use them that's all. I don't put these in everything I play..I chose the time and place to put them in or I may not. There's a time and place for everything. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/20/2018:  22:36:28

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

 

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Scales and arpeggios ground the ear, play them frequently then the notes will be anticipated, include the chromatic scales. Diminished arpeggios helped me with shifting a semi-tone on adjacent strings. After becoming familiar with the sound of the diminished arpeggi try this fingering from low to high string starting first finger then third finger on each string moving back a semi-tone on the change of string. ....C Eb, F# A, C Eb, F# A, and descending. Then try first finger dim arp only on one string, thus E string....F# A C Eb. In each position the dim arp can be played across the strings by shifting a semi-tone as before. The choice of which whole-tone scale maybe determined by the chordal harmony, eg, if  D chord, the notes maybe D E F# G# A# C.

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I think I do the dim arps a bit different, by stretching an extra semi-tone between my 1st and second finger. eg. as per the above...Eb 1st finger, F# 2nd finger, open A...or maybe that's the same as you are describing. I've never tried the one string arp, well, I did just now.  

For the full dim scale, I practice them from the G string to pinky E string, starting on open G, then Ab, then A, with a semi-tone shift that occurs on 3 different strings respectively. Those diminished arps and scales are a lot of fun!

whole tone start on D over a D chord....would it be a D start over a D minor and/or D7? that was really my question. 

bluesmode - Posted - 02/20/2018:  22:45:20

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

Henry is right the whole tone consist of a 6 note scale and not 7 <

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Jerry: thanks for pointing that out. I should have known that. Henry showed the correct example with E F# G# A# C D.

buckhenry - Posted - 02/20/2018:  22:58:03

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesmode

 

whole tone start on D over a D chord....would it be a D start over a D minor and/or D7? that was really my question. 

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There would be less notes that harmonize, maybe start F G A B C# D# F for Dm..

Sure dim arps can be played stretching the 1st and 2nd finger, I play them like that too, and other ways, but the point of my previous post was the sake of exercise because you mentioned difficulty shifting to the semi-tone.  

bluesmode - Posted - 02/21/2018:  04:35:47

wow, thanks a lot for the tip on whole tone over D min. That's the kind of thing I was looking for. I can see and hear how that works now, and I can transpose that trick by starting on the minor third. cool!

at the risk of splitting hairs. I have trouble with the semi-tone shift for closed diagonal whole tones when going from one string to the next, particularly descending.

I don't seem to have trouble with the semi-tone shift that I was trying to describe for diminished scales up or down.

Thanks again for the Dmin whole tone tip. These little things are a big deal for me!

bluesmode - Posted - 02/21/2018:  04:41:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

Henry is right the whole tone consist of a 6 note scale and not 7 and it wouldn't sound right..you have to consider though..there is no note that is out of place... it depends on how you us it



Dave, The scale you suggest E F# G# A# C# D# E F# works with the tonic witch is E. Now you can play.. Jazz or Bebop with dim or aug flat 7's flat 5's and flat 9's At least that works for me

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Jerry: thanks also for the 'tonic tip' over dim, aug, b7, b5, b9.

fujers - Posted - 02/21/2018:  09:28:46

I hear you boys talking about arp..what does that mean

bluesmode - Posted - 02/21/2018:  10:13:15

arp is just short for arpeggio....too much trouble to type out arpeggio every time.

Or...if you put two arps together as in arp arp....that's the sound a seal makes

in fact, I got that little joke right here on FH. Several years ago I posted 'arp' and immediately got a reply 'what's an arp' and then the next guy posted 'it's the sound a seal makes' ....kinda funny

I thought arp was generally understood as arpeggio. apparently not

fujers - Posted - 02/21/2018:  10:32:10

I got ya that's funny about the seal. There was another question what do you mean by semi tones

buckhenry - Posted - 02/21/2018:  12:00:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote: <hr height="1" id="quote" noshade="noshade" /><i>Originally posted by <a href="/myhangout/home.asp?id=23556" ID="newtag-23556">bluesmode</a></i><br /> <p>

I don't seem to have trouble with the semi-tone shift that I was trying to describe for diminished scales up or down.

So, you can actually play it now, or did some meaning get lost in the text...?

fujers - Posted - 02/21/2018:  12:36:50

I don't understand

buckhenry - Posted - 02/21/2018:  12:58:14

fujers... don't understand

Jerry, a semi-tone is half a step, like D to E is a whole step, D to Eb is a semi-tone...

fujers - Posted - 02/21/2018:  13:11:11

Oh ok got ya. You know there's something interesting that happens between the semi tone you know G and Ab. There is another note that happens if you can get it that sits right between the two notes and it's hard to hit. I can hit it once in a while but most times you didn't even know you hit it. You have to record your self playing to even tell. I don't know what it's called. Lots of blues players use it Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 02/21/2018 13:13:16

buckhenry - Posted - 02/21/2018:  21:29:50

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 I don't know what it's called. Lots of blues players use it Jerry

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Micro tone....quarter tone..... 

bluesmode - Posted - 02/21/2018:  22:56:27

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

 

So, you can actually play it now, or did some meaning get lost in the text...?

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I can play the 3 diminished arpeggio's and scales over 4 strings in the first position, ascending and descending.

I can play the 2 whole tone scales in the first position using open strings, ascending and descending

I can't play closed diagonal descending whole tone scales in any position (at least not well enough to say that I can)

I hope that clears things up  

bluesmode - Posted - 02/21/2018:  23:03:46

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 >but most times you didn't even know you hit it.<

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umm...does the listener know you hit it 

well, we've hit page six. I'd like to see this thread go to ten pages. Does it count if it's just Dave, Jerry and Henry?

buckhenry - Posted - 02/21/2018:  23:57:21

You ''can't play closed diagonal'' ....that's what I thought you said, hence my suggestion of practicing the diagonal dim arps..

This thread can go for hundred pages unless there is a limit. And it doesn't matter how many posters there are...?

bluesmode - Posted - 02/22/2018:  05:09:51

quote:

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Originally posted by buckhenry

 >hence my suggestion of practicing the diagonal dim arps..<

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I like my open strings for both the dim arps and whole tone scales, and I don't use either enough to start working on closed. I think I'd be better off to continue working with  the open strings.

with the music you posted a week or so ago, it sounded like you were doing much of that closed in higher positions, yes?

Edited by - bluesmode on 02/22/2018 05:12:10

fujers - Posted - 02/22/2018:  10:44:17

I know Henry can appreciate this but I have a Dr appont March the 15..we'll see. Now on a lighter note.



Play a G pattern any pattern you want..but use the whole tone scale. I would think you would want to choose a chord that suits the whole tone like a 7th chord or use flat 7ths and flat 5's witch works nicely to the lead in of the whole tone. If for some reason the whole note scale doesn't seem to work it may mean you didn't use the right notes. All notes have a relationship to the last note you played. The chose of notes you play if very important to anything you play and it's up to you to choose the right set of notes. Without choosing the right notes for anything you want get it. Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 02/22/2018 10:44:46

buckhenry - Posted - 02/22/2018:  11:54:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 you were doing much of that closed in higher positions, yes?

 

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Yes...

So you were not looking for a solution to the problem of diagonal semi-tone-shifting..? And you are happy with how you play..?

Good to hear you made the Dr appointment Jerry. Now be nice to him and seek a second opinion. 

fujers - Posted - 02/22/2018:  12:51:28

Will do Henry. Here's two examples of how to use whole tone scales. We already established the whole tone is found a lot in jazz right. Now take these two tunes. Lady Be Good and Sweet Georgia Brown these two tunes are perfect for it.

The way I play them in G or F. Lets take Lady Be Good-- If I wanted to create tension and that what this scale does... I'll use it when the song is getting hot and heavy--and then and only then do I put the scales in. The same with Sweet. There are places you want to bring attention to the song..after playing the scale you bring it back to the root and keep on going with the other scales you use. Tension is all you want to bring in.. then release it and you don't over use it. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 02/22/2018:  13:10:18

Micro tone that was the word I was looking for. Dave I don't know the answer to the question..but I can't hear the difference unless I record something . Sometimes it has a neat sound and other times it makes you sound out of tune. I guess it depends on what you play. When I play something in Western Swing it gives it a nice variance in pitch.. and on a slow tune it makes you sound out of tune...weird

bluesmode - Posted - 02/22/2018:  13:43:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

quote:

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So you were not looking for a solution to the problem of diagonal semi-tone-shifting..? And you are happy with how you play..? 

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no, I wasn't looking for a solution to diagonal semi-tone shifting, only stating that I had trouble with diagonals, and then stated that I preferred open strings first position for whole tones. Sorry about the confusion with that

as for diminished scales, I shift a semi-tone on 3 different strings for the 3 scales, first position with open strings wherever they occur eg:

dim scale G start: semitone shift occurs on D string, 1st finger from Eb to E

dim scale Ab start: semitone shift occurs on A string, 1st finger from Bb to B

dim scale A start: semitone shift occurs on E string, 1st finger  from F to Gb

am I happy with the way I play whole tones, dim arps & scales: Yes

am i happy with the way I play in general: No

Jerry: I see my psychiatrist about every 6 weeks, no kidding.