fujers - Posted - 02/05/2018:  10:02:32

Dave I don't think I play pents any different than you do It's just the way I use them. We're in G again. The notes of the G pent is GABDE.5 notes..don't stop there run the scale up another octave this is where you'll get more bang for your buck.

Sounds boring doesn't it..it's not. You can start your run on any note you want to...start on the G or the A or the B it doesn't matter. Now start on a different note within the scale and see what you get..a different sounding scale. Make a motif..you can play the scale anyway you want as long as you stay within the scale..kinda what you do when you play a normal scale but this is different. Now find another place to play the same scale on the neck and do the same thing you just played. You can go anywhere on the neck and play it. What I do..is I play the scale in different patterns..like I may start on the G one time or I may start on the B doesn't matter where I start it it all comes out the same...now add a different note that doesn't really belong to the scale this gives the scale color and it may become a mode.. and all modes are welcome. Mixing and matching notes is all you're doing and this just adds a little life to the scale. Hope that helps. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/05/2018:  10:29:02

yup, I do everything you've mentioned. and you're right about shifting up the neck. The same key falls to hand differently in the 2nd & 3rd positions and therefore sounds a bit different with different pattern arrangements. I make it a point to practice all my scales from the first note of the scale on the G string to my little finger on the E string. Looks like we're pretty much on the same page.

fujers - Posted - 02/05/2018:  10:51:34

Good, Try different bowings. The more you try different bowings the more different they sound and there are easy to play. I mostly play these in 2nd and 3rd position because they are easier to play there but they work in second too. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 02/05/2018:  10:53:33

Sorry I mostly play these in 1st and 3rd positiions

davebones - Posted - 02/08/2018:  09:46:08

I am really enjoying reading this thread. I'm a newbie fiddler after 40 plus years as a jazz bone and guitar player, and while Celtic and Cape Breton fiddling got me interested in the instrument, I just can't help wanting to play jazz on the violin, but my technical skills are too few at this point. I wanted to share a resource, a book by Mike Steinel called "Building a jazz vocabulary". He analyzed hundreds of solos of the jazz greats and isolated different musical phrases he calls cells, which are chordal, scale, pentatonic and others. These cells are like words in English, as they can be combined to express musical ideas. It's $20 or so on Amazon and very well worth it.
"

bluesmode - Posted - 02/08/2018:  20:14:43

sounds very interesting. I suppose it's done with notes on a staff? it would be a problem for me as I don't read. Sure, I know FACE and Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge, but if the notes go very far above the staff it takes me longer to figure out. and reading timing is a whole 'nuther story.

Is it possible for you to post an example? If not, that's understandable.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/08/2018:  21:15:12

might as well continue..... I think I've previously stated that I don't have a whole lot for varied bow technique. My bow hand pretty much just follows my left hand around. But these 8 note scales have forced to to pay attention to what I'm doing with the bow. I've figured out a couple of ways to bow to make them....umm.... sound better. I actually hafta concentrate. oh well, no pain no gain.

fujers - Posted - 02/08/2018:  21:27:27

The long bow is it

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2018:  09:30:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

The long bow is it

---

yup, maybe I should change my user name to 'Legato Long Bow'...has a certain ring to it.

here's how I 've changed my bowing, mainly for what I'm calling the major-ish swingy scale. In A starting on G string: A B C C# Eb E F# Ab A B C C# Eb E F# Ab a (over 2 octaves)

previously I was sliding up from the C to the C# with second finger, now I'm playing the C C# Eb with 2nd, 3rd, & 4th fingers. Sounds better, easier to do, makes for shorter bow strokes and seems to swing the scale better. 

same idea for starting this on an open string, say D

scale is D E F F# Ab A B Db D E F F# Ab  A. instead of sliding up F to F# with second finger, (for the first octave only) I'm doing the E F F# 1st, 2nd, 3rd fingers. This needs a 3 semi-tone stretch with the pinky to hit the Ab on D sting, but I still think that is easier and sounds/ swings better. 

I'd be a bit surprised if anyone is actually following me along with this, but no problem and no matter, cuz it helps me to write it out, seems to solidify what I'm doing. I certainly wouldn't be trying to 'follow' some of the complicated bowing you fiddlers do.   

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2018:  10:36:07

Dave, I don't read either...I got to hunt and peck the notes I read..so I can read just a little. Looks like a chromatic scale you are playing..if so..why did you leave out the F..just curious. Got to go..tuttles. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2018:  10:55:17

Dave I'll try and post something for you after my hand heals

DougD - Posted - 02/09/2018:  13:44:43

Dave - Its best not to mix sharps and flats, or describe notes in sharp key scales as flats.
Therefore, in A your Eb and Ab would be better written as D# and G#, and in D the Ab should be G# and Db should be C#, which seems easy to see. I guess you're thinking of the progression into the next note from the one below, but mixing it up like that actually makes it more confusing

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2018:  16:28:16

I have found this discussion very interesting which caused me to search for recourses online and I found a heap PDF files available for free. These files include methods of how to study jazz and they also include many, many transcriptions of the jazz greats solos. I had a shot at Charlie Parkers solo on 'Anthropology'. I only play a bit of the first page because it is difficult to play and scroll at the same time.. Please excuse the bum notes, I was just sight reading...

Anthropology

 

fujers - Posted - 02/09/2018:  18:02:53

Henry that was great....and if you were reading it...who cares. I to got me some Charlie Parker licks..don't know what song they go to. I think maybe I will try and play some tonight if my hand is up to it. Great job. Jerry

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2018:  22:36:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

Dave, I don't read either...I got to hunt and peck the notes I read..so I can read just a little. Looks like a chromatic scale you are playing..if so..why did you leave out the F..just curious. Got to go..tuttles. Jerry

---

Jerry: I recently found out from a Mr. Mike Laird on violinist.com, that these a called 'modified blues scales' (not bebop or chromatic scales) which is the 6 note blues scale with 2 additional passing tones. leaving the F out is correct for this scale. One can hear them better over 2 octaves, but for simplicity, I'll write them out in one octave.

A minor modified blues scale: A B C D Eb E Gb G a

A major modified blues scale A B C Db Eb E Gb Ab a

@DougD: sorry Doug, I don't know the difference between sharp and flat keys. Is the above correct? If not, would you please correct them?

....anyhooo, I've been using these at the jams for the past few days, and to my ear, they sound and work great. 

bluesmode - Posted - 02/09/2018:  22:49:06

buckhenry : That was amazing. A lot going on there. Would be nice to hear it with the chords.

buckhenry - Posted - 02/09/2018:  23:03:53

Like I said, I only played a bit of the transcript, most of it is my improvisation. Can you hear where I actually begin to make it up..?

bluesmode - Posted - 02/10/2018:  06:56:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

Like I said, I only played a bit of the transcript, most of it is my improvisation. Can you hear where I actually begin to make it up..?

---

I'll listen to it again, but the first time around I thought I was hearing quite a few Gypsy scale type riffs.

bluesmode - Posted - 02/10/2018:  07:02:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

Dave, I don't read either...I got to hunt and peck the notes I read..so I can read just a little. Looks like a chromatic scale you are playing..if so..why did you leave out the F..just curious. Got to go..tuttles. Jerry

---

 Mike Laird 

---

...gonna do some name dropping....Mike Laird plays at the Eastman School of Music in Rochester New York. I've got his big book, Arpeggios, Rhythms, and scales. When he says that the scale I'm describing is a modified 'sweet' blues scale, as per the Jazz Professors at Eastman, I trust him to be correct.

fujers - Posted - 02/10/2018:  09:30:04

Dave, I'll have to try it the scales that is and see what I get. I just at first looked at them and noticed the F. I'll try them tho.

Henry, I thought that you were playing off a sheet of paper and I could hear where you were veering off a little bit a little off what you were playing...but who cares it's music and I don't understand a bit of it hehe. Good job tho. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/10/2018:  10:24:41

I was trying to prove a point.....you don't need all that jazz theory to sound jazzy..as someone said you need three things...''rhythm, rhythm and rhythm''. Those gypsy riffs are probably the diminished arps I was playing..

bluesmode - Posted - 02/10/2018:  11:25:20

diminished arps! ok, that makes sense. Cool. I like doing diminished arps more than I like the full scale, which is also 8 notes. But I'm sure you knew that 

Edited by - bluesmode on 02/10/2018 11:30:07

bluesmode - Posted - 02/10/2018:  11:49:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

I was trying to prove a point.....you don't need all that jazz theory to sound jazzy..as someone said you need three things...''rhythm, rhythm and rhythm''. 

---

no, you don't need all that jazz theory to sound jazzy, but some of us need structure. Isn't the end game for scales to mix the notes up, mix the timing up (rhythm), use scale fragments, stretch scales above the octave, merge them in with other scales, and however you can, turn the scales into music. I think that would be obvious when talking about scales. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Anyone else agree with me? 

davebones - Posted - 02/10/2018:  12:37:39

Dave,
I think you are exactly right. I would point out that I have played (jazz bone) with many folks who don't know a lot of theory, but who had learned tricks, licks, phrases etc and also how to play in the idiom of jazz. As you have mentioned, using a bebop scale is a great example of this. Folks can learn this by listening and then incorporate it in their playing. It's a basic part of the language of bebop. If players what to say more than that, they will need more language, and learning words and phrases always precedes using sentences. On a keyboard (anybody's) play a G, B and D in the left hand. In the right hand play an A flat minor scale up an octave from the G chord. What you hear is a very jazzy sound. So when you are jammin in the key of C and the chord progression goes from D minor to G major to C major, you can play your A flat minor scale over the G chord and then resolve to C major, and impress your friends with just how cool your sound is (or not!!)

buckhenry - Posted - 02/10/2018:  15:04:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

---

no, you don't need all that jazz theory to sound jazzy, but some of us need structure. Isn't the end game for scales to mix the notes up, mix the timing up (rhythm), use scale fragments, stretch scales above the octave, merge them in with other scales, and however you can, turn the scales into music. I think that would be obvious when talking about scales. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Anyone else agree with me? 

---

Of course I agree with you, you cant make music without scales.! Thats what I used to  recorded the MP3, and I treated the scales exactly as you just said, but I had not spent hours practicing the ''bepop'' scales. I know all the scales and modes with chromatics included. 

fujers - Posted - 02/10/2018:  20:33:13

Dave, Whats a jazz bone

fujers - Posted - 02/10/2018:  20:42:13

Now playing Western Swing is kinda like playing Jazz but different. It has lots..not as many chords for the most part as jazz..but it's got it's far share of them. A nice feel and all that stuff. Thats the kinda of music I play. But I'm not a jazz player. I think that just about anyone can play these things but you have to work for it.. I forgot where I was going so I'll just shut up. Jerry

buckhenry - Posted - 02/10/2018:  20:46:46

bone=trombone

fujers - Posted - 02/10/2018:  20:48:25

Got ya

fujers - Posted - 02/10/2018:  20:49:32

This guy Dave seems to know what he's talking about..I shall listen to him

buckhenry - Posted - 02/10/2018:  20:57:31

I thought you might relate to what Dave talked about, because you're the man with the ''tricks 'n' licks''...

fujers - Posted - 02/10/2018:  21:28:47

Got a few. I'm starting to work on a few Charlie Parker things I used to play. You know it's kinda of hard to dig into your mind to pull out old things you used to play. But we'll see. Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 02/10/2018 21:30:33

buckhenry - Posted - 02/10/2018:  22:03:52

I have Grappelli transcriptions and I have a book of Venuti licks. I've had those for years and never bothered to memorize them. I feel that they're just not my work and why should I play some else's licks, I get along fine by making up own on the spot. I don't have a bag of licks but I can scrap something up when needed.

fujers - Posted - 02/10/2018:  22:26:01

I have some old Grappelli writings I did a long time ago...mostly variations of Lady Be Good, How High The Moon and I think Stuff Smith that's about it. I like to improvise a lot of what I play..you know play the theme and take it away from there. But my hands hurt me so bad now I can hardly play a thing but little by little there starting to get better...but no dougt about it...I can still play Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 02/10/2018 22:29:35

davebones - Posted - 02/11/2018:  09:00:03

To the few to whom it matters, jazz bone refers to jazz trombone, which is evidently an endangered species, along with jazz in clubs generally. How many of you have listened to a jazz trombone CD? Or just to a jazz CD? The last band I played in was a seven piece group and we had a two year gig (once a month) that paid us $350 a night for three hours, plus food from the club restaurant. Oops! This is a fiddle forum and I'm sure no rants about the sorry state of live jazz is permitted. So, to refocus, the violin is a very cool instrument for jazz and is fun to investigate and learn. And, it's not all or nothing. Some may enjoy just adding a couple of jazzy tunes to their bag of tricks. The resources are endless. I highly recommend Band In a Box as a resource, because playing with a backup tremendously speeds up your understanding and improvement. Plus you can use BIAB for Celtic and Bluegrass backup as well. There are whole libraries of tunes already set up for BIAB either free on the internet or available for a modest price.

fujers - Posted - 02/11/2018:  11:12:05

Hey Dave, I likie jazz and I try and play it sometimes not much headway though. Anything you want to talk about jazz related is fine with me maybe I'll learn something. I too use BIAB for the very reasons you mention. There's a program withing BIAB called REALBAND ever use it..now that where the magic happens. Anyway welcome to the site and I hope your time here is long. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 02/11/2018:  11:14:15

Forgot, I like the trombone I use it sometimes in songs I write

davebones - Posted - 02/11/2018:  14:13:10

Jerry, I haven't tried RealBand. Thanks for the recommendation. I mainly used BIAB to put in chord changes so I could practice improvisation on my horn. My version is the 2010 one and I'm investigating getting the newer version that might work better with Windows 10. Glad to hear you like trombone; I've been playing since the 7th grade (1959). But I'm really working my butt off to learn to play violin. Started seriously practicing last August, and I'm using lots of online resources, particularly violinlab.com. I'd love to try some Grapelli transcriptions but I'm not there yet. More like Suzuki book II and Celtic tunes.

fujers - Posted - 02/11/2018:  14:21:02

Check put playing pentatonic scales and I know you know what they are. The quickest way of playing..get your feet wet

bluesmode - Posted - 02/12/2018:  19:39:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

Now playing Western Swing is kinda like playing Jazz but different. It has lots..not as many chords for the most part as jazz..but it's got it's far share of them. A nice feel and all that stuff. Thats the kinda of music I play. But I'm not a jazz player. I think that just about anyone can play these things but you have to work for it.. I forgot where I was going so I'll just shut up. Jerry

---

I've always said Western Swing is the Jazz of country music. Sure, not as many chord changes, but what those top Western Swing players can do within the changes is amazing. I'd rather listen to and play Western Swing over Jazz, so I'm with you there, Jerry.

in fact, one of these scale inversions...C D Eb E Gb G A B C, put me in mind of a teaching dvd by Matt Glazer called Swingin' Jazzy Violin that I got several years ago. He demonstrated different swing riffs around the circle. Very nice sounding and the different riffs were designed to mix, match, and merge with each other. Just a couple of days ago I realized that the above scale was the same 'family' of stuff as on the dvd. So I spent the last couple of days re-learning 5 favorite ones in 5 keys. This is about the third time I've re-visited the Matt Glazer dvd, and it comes back to me quicker each time. I'm more motivated now, as I've been working on the above 8 note scale.  

bluesmode - Posted - 02/12/2018:  19:57:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

I have Grappelli transcriptions and I have a book of Venuti licks. I've had those for years and never bothered to memorize them. I feel that they're just not my work and why should I play some else's licks, I get along fine by making up own on the spot. I don't have a bag of licks but I can scrap something up when needed.

---

for me, the trick with the bag of tricks is to be able to pull them out of the bag in whatever combination falls to hand and merge them together as seamlessly as possible. Also to be flexible enough with the tricks to maybe use only half a trick, or 3/4 of a trick etc.

in many cases, someone else's licks sound better than my own, Like the Matt Glazer dvd in the above post. These are very tasty, and I never would have come up with them on my own. But I can make them my own by merging them in with other stuff in (you guessed it) my bag of tricks.

different strokes for different folks

fujers - Posted - 02/12/2018:  22:25:58

Your're right Dave but having enough licks to cover everything you can play is tricky. If you can only play in one key..you have a bag of licks you can only play in that one key..and if you play in many keys you have more licks you can play right



Learning to play in many keys is not difficult and sometimes it is. I may be just talking about my experience with fiddling but we fiddlers look for any key that has open notes the more open notes the better. The more open notes you can find makes it easier to play in. I used to play with Andy Reiss from the Time Jumpers..he sent me over some charts of the songs we were to play with Mandy Barnett the Pasty Cline sing a like and just about all the songs were in Bb, F and Ab. Now Ab is like no mans lands there's not many open note in that key..I can play in it but not like I can in the keys that have a lot of open notes. So bags of licks are not hard to get..you just have to work for them. Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 02/12/2018 22:27:23

buckhenry - Posted - 02/13/2018:  00:52:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

different strokes for different folks

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Great.! We agree on some thing...............................

fujers - Posted - 02/13/2018:  09:14:34

Yep different strokes for different folks

bluesmode - Posted - 02/13/2018:  10:18:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

>>and if you play in many keys you have more licks you can play right

 

Jerry, I agree with your post. I am currently re-visiting 5 Matt Glaser swing riffs in the keys of E A D G C... just put in a couple of hours in on them this morning. I pretty much only practice in these 5 keys, as that's pretty much the keys that the acoustic guitar players that I jam with play in.  I can string all these 5 riffs together, go thru that in one key and move on to the next.

btw, does anyone know the name of a swing trio. (it may have been mentioned here) fabulous female fiddler, fantastic male acoustic guitar player, and a great male upright bass player. I'd like to find some you tube vids of them again. 

Edited by - bluesmode on 02/13/2018 10:24:23

bluesmode - Posted - 02/13/2018:  10:38:25

@davebones & Jerry were talking about band-in-a-box....just wanted to share this...I used to have biab, but my computer gave out, had to get another one, and I didn't have the resources to transfer the program to the new computer so I lost it. it had a background called Sinatra Style Swing (32 measure). one of the built in solo's was for Vibes. it was a really nice solo and I thought it sounded quite 'violin-ish' so I learned it note for note. It took me a while as it was pretty tricky. The notes of the solo would scroll across the screen as it was being played and you could play it back and repeat it from any point in the 32 bars for as many bars as you wanted. and the solo notes for the bars that were selected would scroll across the screen. Amazing!!



This vibe solo was waay beyond something I could make up myself, and just being able to play it was a high point in all my playing days.



I miss BAIB.

Edited by - bluesmode on 02/13/2018 10:40:43

fujers - Posted - 02/13/2018:  11:49:20

Dave you still the disks that biab gave you

bluesmode - Posted - 02/13/2018:  13:04:47

nope, they seem to have disappeared with changes in residence. I would have had to get someone to install them for me, but I guess that would have been worth it. I don't think I'd spend the money for a new one tho, I've got a Yamaha QY 100 music sequencer that has around 100 variations of different music styles, and offers 24 different chord types that can be programmed in. also has quick change for keys and tempo.

buckhenry - Posted - 02/13/2018:  13:07:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

Yep different strokes for different folks

---

Hey Jerry, happy anniversary, you've been at the hangout for 10 years to the day.

While it is true that I don't study licks, on the other hand I believe you can not improvise anything without playing a lick.

All the notes I string together are licks, they are derived from my interpretation of how I want my improvisation to sound like. The notes I have chosen are also influenced by the copious hours of listening to various forms of genre. What I have never done is work out licks 'note-for-note', but I have worked on incorporating intervals. And, I have never copied someone's lick, I don't care how good their's sound, I want to sound like no one but me.......