EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 12/21/2015:  04:12:59

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I was trolling on Ebay since I received an email from them. They sure have sellers hocking some nice chinese built fiddles that sure do look purty. Anyone know anything about these guys or ever bought one and if so do you like it? Even has testimonials, but I guess they could've been written by anyone.

ebay.com/itm/Soloist-Violin-Gu...964969361

I'm just curious how they can sell these for only $200-$400 bucks? They look like much more expensive instruments. Not looking for a fiddle right at the moment but I'm impressed at lest just by the general look of the Violin.

 

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  05:31:14

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I tried to tell you that when you first started.

I've bought 4 direct.

The ones I bought were from a seller joyee-music or something like that.

A couple common ones are yitamusic and oldviolinhouse.

The one you found might be as good and probable is.

I always look closely at the bridge. You can tell a lot from a bridge.



It's called cheap labor, around here a bridge cost $275 plus tax.



The case is throw away, the bows have been usable.

joyee-music sells like 3 A DAY !!

stores.ebay.com/joyeemusic/

The reason I joyee-music because he does give a nice view of the bridge. Many others don't, which be fine too, but it's my own tell tail sign. If it has a bad looking cut bridge it can't be good.

joyee-music picture quality has not been as good lately though.

You can also sometime see if varnish is too thick / lumpy.

I got my Viola for free because it was damaged in shipping and I repaired it myself.

I also invested in a tonerite to help play them in quickly. The viola didn't need it. Sounded great on the first bow. I posted a thread on it. and on the first violin I bought from them.

 

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/21/2015 05:45:45

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  05:56:09

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Thread on repairing cheap ebay china viola (it was $275).

fiddlehangout.com/topic/40945

Here is my thread on the first one I bought

fiddlehangout.com/archive/33461

 

amwildman - Posted - 12/21/2015:  05:58:47

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Not just cheap labor. I've seen videos of some factories. These workers are incredibly fast.

This used to be an under the radar thing. Prices have actually gone up since there is more bidding competition.

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  06:14:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by amwildman



Not just cheap labor. I've seen videos of some factories. These workers are incredibly fast.



This used to be an under the radar thing. Prices have actually gone up since there is more bidding competition.

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I agree, I think the better ones are sorting out. Most of the ones I've bought are made by a shop joyee-music calls "Yi-Chen" and he no longer sells "Yi-Chen" ones at Best Offer or Auction and only has 1 in stock at the moment and those prices have gone up. I got one for $150.00 now they are all $329 and up. Prices are going up because labor is going up in china and exchange rates too.

But I always check "sold listings". And there is still a ton of good deals. Many sell between $100.00-$200.00. The reviews are always good too and these sellers take that seriously.

If you time it right you can get insane bargains. Auctions that end at odd hours or odd time of year. Like a bad time is August - September when school starts there is a lot of demand.

I think these sound as good as a $1000.00 instrument you buy in USA, but the finish isn't quite as nice, a tiny bit rough (like varnish dripped or settled thick because they are made and shipped so fast).

Here is one now from the maker Eric listed 22min left and it's at $102

ebay.com/itm/Nicely-Hand-Made-...wbdpWaXMI

another sold for $91.00 today. What a rip off, no bow included !!

ebay.com/itm/Rare-Violin-Strad...w7FRWajzB

I have no personal experience with this particular seller.

 

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/21/2015 06:23:22

Dick Hauser - Posted - 12/21/2015:  08:17:35

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I wonder if many fiddlers buy high quality "white" violins and refinish them.  I am not a handy guy, but I think some reading and personal advice would enable me to turn out a "white" violin that would be comparable to $2K instruments.  If I were young, like Eric, it is something I would check out.  I have heard some "white" violins that sound very good.  

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/21/2015:  13:18:19

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Dick,  You might not need to do much graduation - surprising what can be done from the outside.  I've had some European white instruments apart where I realized I need not have popped them open!  And others where I started with a graduation drill and a gouge.  So I look more carefully now!  

Of more difficulty than you might think is really nicely doing the neck, cutting a great post, all that stuff.  But with good workmanship and a bit of knowledge, materials, and time, no reason it can't be done.

EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 12/21/2015:  16:32:27

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They sure look nice that's for sure, look like more expensive instruments

Blue - Posted - 12/21/2015:  17:56:01

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They're not all so great.  I bought one from Old Violin House a few years ago and it had some problems and never sounded decent, even with a pro setup, but it was cheap.

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  18:03:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

I wonder if many fiddlers buy high quality "white" violins and refinish them.  I am not a handy guy, but I think some reading and personal advice would enable me to turn out a "white" violin that would be comparable to $2K instruments.  If I were young, like Eric, it is something I would check out.  I have heard some "white" violins that sound very good.  

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My Rodney "Student" fiddle is one such fiddle. It was bought in the white to his specs and then he finishes it. I don't know how much he regraduates them or how much he pays for them. He no longer does this and only does them from scratch.

One recently sold for $5500.00 at Stamell Strings and he still shows another for the same price. Not sure if these were new or used.

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  18:09:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blue

 

They're not all so great.  I bought one from Old Violin House a few years ago and it had some problems and never sounded decent, even with a pro setup, but it was cheap.

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Absolutely !!! but that's true of more expensive fiddles too. All 4 so far have been very decent sounding. So I've been lucky and that's why I tend to stick to the same seller and "shop" because it's worked out good.

Some shops might organize things differently. And I know there are many good ones out there. But you are taking a chance finding one.

I've seen similar reports from other people buying from other shops. Like Henrik (a member) buys them for students and has had good luck. I've bought them for friends starting out.

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 12/21/2015:  18:15:05

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I always think of the workers.  A lot of them live a sucky life if what I understand is true.  That's why there are containers of $99.00 fiddles.  

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  18:30:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlerjoebob

 

I always think of the workers.  A lot of them live a sucky life if what I understand is true.  That's why there are containers of $99.00 fiddles.  

 

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Actually the point is, these are not coming in "containers". Your buying direct with the shop and they are probably making a lot more money than the shops that fill "containers" with 1000's.

And I'll bet the workers associated with these smaller scale shops that sell direct probably do a little less sucky. But who knows.

There is a lot of containers of "stuff" coming from china we all use.

I think of the craftsman here that can't compete at that labor rate.

 

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/21/2015 18:34:03

bsed - Posted - 12/21/2015:  19:02:18

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My advice: Play them, but also play a lot of other fiddles of different makes. I was in the market earlier this year. The first fiddle I tried was a fiddle that was beautifully (I thought) set up. Anyhow it was a much better setup than most other fiddles that I'd played. I went to a guy's house to try it out. I asked him 2 or 3 times where did it come from? He finally told me (like he was trying to avoid it) that it was Chinese. I didn't buy it, because I wanted to play a number of others. As I drove away from his house, I went over the whole try-out in my head, and there was something I didn't like. It wasn't the setup. Loved it. It wasn't the price ($250). Loved that. Then it struck me that the sound was not a warm sound, but I'd say cold and maybe somewhat metallic. Not the kind of sound I wanted.

So I'd use caution when looking at these Chinese fiddles. Some of them are pretty well made, but that ain't the whole story.

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/21/2015:  20:44:43

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Many (most?) of these comments apply to trade fiddles coming from anywhere at any time, with some exceptions (e.g., Medio Fino & JTL French).   Issues:

1.  Wood.  Sometimes the money seems to have gone into the wood, instead of into the other things.  Nasty fingerboards.

2.  Design.  Many don't seem to have any real design, especially as to arching and graduation.

3.  Execution.  Lumpy or odd arching, especially the top longitudinal arch.  Excess weight.  Random graduation or just too much.  Sometimes actually too thin.  Heavy bars.  Club necks.  

4.  Finish.  If the finish can survive coming from overseas, it is pretty tough.  Sometimes that is fine, sometimes it's a pickled fiddle.

5.  Setup.  Less than desirable bridge, poor pegs, fingerboard wiggly surfaced, generally "looks like" a setup.  

Another less obvious issue is mono-dimensionality.  Often the performance envelope is extremely small on these imported cheapies.  Won't take lots of power, won't play quietly with projection, poor ability to have the tone color manipulated. 

 

Still, some quite modest imports are extremely nice, especially for the modern cost.

 

The other route, of getting a reworked here or benchmade instrument is not as much of a hassle as you might think.  I have a difficult time seeing a reworked import at $5500.  $2500 is probably getting pretty high, unless it's a rather dishy European instrument reworked by someone who knows the craft well.  The Jurgen Klier model from Weavers, for example.  I've done a couple of hundred myself.  Even then, under $2500 should get you into something quite decent.

Benchmade?  New makers often get $3000.  $6000 will hit a lot of makers who do well.  If a more rustic fiddle is OK, then there are a goodly number of makers whose work passes muster as far as I can tell!

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  21:15:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

 

My advice: Play them, but also play a lot of other fiddles of different makes. I was in the market earlier this year. The first fiddle I tried was a fiddle that was beautifully (I thought) set up. Anyhow it was a much better setup than most other fiddles that I'd played. I went to a guy's house to try it out. I asked him 2 or 3 times where did it come from? He finally told me (like he was trying to avoid it) that it was Chinese. I didn't buy it, because I wanted to play a number of others. As I drove away from his house, I went over the whole try-out in my head, and there was something I didn't like. It wasn't the setup. Loved it. It wasn't the price ($250). Loved that. Then it struck me that the sound was not a warm sound, but I'd say cold and maybe somewhat metallic. Not the kind of sound I wanted.

So I'd use caution when looking at these Chinese fiddles. Some of them are pretty well made, but that ain't the whole story.

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So we should all use caution with Chinese fiddles because you heard ONE that wasn't warm to you.

Are there any other countries we should exclude that can't make a warm fiddle?

 

Fiddlemaker5224 - Posted - 12/21/2015:  21:44:16

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I have to agree with Steve. I have completed a repair on a factory made china instrument. Many points that Steve stated were true. Some things that he failed to mention was the substandard materials and improperly drying (green wood). As this material was used in the instrument it set up the chances for failure immensely. As green wood dries, it shrinks. This producing many cracks and warping. 

The top was then removed from the instrument and another crack was found on the center line near the end block. During removal the top plate material tended to split very easy and was a bit tricky to remove. After I had the top off, it was obvious why it was so difficult to remove. The instrument was assembled in China (as per label) with glue much like tight-bond. Some damage occurred around the saddle nut when the top was removed.



Inside the instrument was another story. The top plate lining on the base side of the instrument was separated from the ribs. Much of it was splintered. On a good note, this instrument had full corner blocks.



The base bar was installed with this same glue in such copious amounts that I will need to remove the excess.

So if you get the Cheap China fiddles, please be informed. Most of the mass produced factory made instruments are mainly wasted time and effort in the repairs. The material is substandard and improperly aged. I guess the old saying goes, “you get what you pay for”. In the Photos you can get an Idea of the effort to repair this instrument.

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  21:48:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by giannaviolins

 

Many (most?) of these comments apply to trade fiddles coming from anywhere at any time, with some exceptions (e.g., Medio Fino & JTL French).   Issues:

1.  Wood.  Sometimes the money seems to have gone into the wood, instead of into the other things.  Nasty fingerboards.

2.  Design.  Many don't seem to have any real design, especially as to arching and graduation.

3.  Execution.  Lumpy or odd arching, especially the top longitudinal arch.  Excess weight.  Random graduation or just too much.  Sometimes actually too thin.  Heavy bars.  Club necks.  

4.  Finish.  If the finish can survive coming from overseas, it is pretty tough.  Sometimes that is fine, sometimes it's a pickled fiddle.

5.  Setup.  Less than desirable bridge, poor pegs, fingerboard wiggly surfaced, generally "looks like" a setup.  

Another less obvious issue is mono-dimensionality.  Often the performance envelope is extremely small on these imported cheapies.  Won't take lots of power, won't play quietly with projection, poor ability to have the tone color manipulated. 

 

Still, some quite modest imports are extremely nice, especially for the modern cost.

 

The other route, of getting a reworked here or benchmade instrument is not as much of a hassle as you might think.  I have a difficult time seeing a reworked import at $5500.  $2500 is probably getting pretty high, unless it's a rather dishy European instrument reworked by someone who knows the craft well.  The Jurgen Klier model from Weavers, for example.  I've done a couple of hundred myself.  Even then, under $2500 should get you into something quite decent.

Benchmade?  New makers often get $3000.  $6000 will hit a lot of makers who do well.  If a more rustic fiddle is OK, then there are a goodly number of makers whose work passes muster as far as I can tell!

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Guess you've been buying them of the $99.00 Container boat.

Sorry, I know threads like this don't help your business and you have to sound really smart for folks to come your way.

If you only have a couple hundred dollars (and many fiddlers do) these are MUCH better than buying locally which will be the $99 version marked up to $300.00 (the kind with painted fingerboards)

Like anything there is a very wide range of quality and price and you know better than to make such blanket statements.

Your comment about the finish surviving the trip is really funny.

mswlogo - Posted - 12/21/2015:  22:13:16

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

I have to agree with Steve. I have completed a repair on a factory made china instrument. Many points that Steve stated were true. Some things that he failed to mention was the substandard materials and improperly drying (green wood). As this material was used in the instrument it set up the chances for failure immensely. As green wood dries, it shrinks. This producing many cracks and warping. 

The top was then removed from the instrument and another crack was found on the center line near the end block. During removal the top plate material tended to split very easy and was a bit tricky to remove. After I had the top off, it was obvious why it was so difficult to remove. The instrument was assembled in China (as per label) with glue much like tight-bond. Some damage occurred around the saddle nut when the top was removed.



Inside the instrument was another story. The top plate lining on the base side of the instrument was separated from the ribs. Much of it was splintered. On a good note, this instrument had full corner blocks.



The base bar was installed with this same glue in such copious amounts that I will need to remove the excess.

So if you get the Cheap China fiddles, please be informed. Most of the mass produced factory made instruments are mainly wasted time and effort in the repairs. The material is substandard and improperly aged. I guess the old saying goes, “you get what you pay for”. In the Photos you can get an Idea of the effort to repair this instrument.

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Nobody in their right mind would do a repair like this to one of these fiddles. Unless it's for practice. They are NOT WORTH IT. Toss it and buy another.

One of the instruments I got was water damaged (no fault of the seller). Seams and fingerboard came loose as they should because they used the proper glue.

I used it to learn on and did the repairs myself. It sounds gorgeous much better than the Eastman 305 Viola I have.

I'm sure I can find as many examples of badly built instruments from any where no shortage of those.

And I think you're both misleading folks to label everything from China as junk. And yes, there is plenty of junk too.

If you want help picking one out from China give me a buzz.

The photos you posted look like the $99.00 type (sold on amazon with bow, rosin and case and SPARE STRINGS !!). Was the purfling painted on? That's a hint it's junk by the way ;)

 

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/21/2015 22:20:07

Fiddlemaker5224 - Posted - 12/21/2015:  22:45:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

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Nobody in their right mind would do a repair like this to one of these fiddles. Unless it's for practice. They are NOT WORTH IT.

And I think you're both misleading folks to label everything from China as junk. And yes, there is plenty of junk too.

The photos you posted look like the $99.00 type (sold on amazon with bow, rosin and case and SPARE STRINGS !!). Was the purfling painted on? That's a hint it's junk by the way ;)

 

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Well, I am in my right mind, when a friend of mine asks for help I often give it freely. BTW, your not telling me anything that I do not already know. There were inquiries, and many folks never get to see the inside of the instrument.  So this is just an educational part. Informing the public is a service, and helps them to be aware of the problems that they can have choosing an instrument. Or helping a friend that may not be able to afford another one. So do not assume you have all the answers. Yes there was purfling installed. Perhaps in another ten years the instruments coming from China will have improved when the current students have completed their education. We just have  to wait and see what happens.

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Edited by - Fiddlemaker5224 on 12/21/2015 22:48:26

EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 12/22/2015:  03:25:52

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I'd say without much experience, but just by looking at the photos from the outside, the fiddles I saw on Ebay at least "looked" close up like they were well made and using decent materials, course no way of knowing what's going on in the inside. Some could be quite good, some a lemon. It's a crapshoot. I don't remember if the adds said the buyer had a trial period or not. If not, I'd take that as a bad sign.

I'd say overall this bodes well for Chinese fiddles as long as they don't start to get pricey. 

But, I know my Chinese made fiddle beat my Gliga hands down. It's much more comfortable to play and has better tone and projection. Not that my Gliga was bad, not at all, but I just found my Chinese fiddle that I got cheap was a better fit. being in Argentina at the time I didn't have a way to try much stuff, but it worked well for when I got it. Selling it now though LOL.

I'm impressed with some Chinese work, dunno why some folks are down on them or afraid of them. Seems the Violin industry there has made great strides. Here's a photo of the one I saw. Maybe it's me but the neck looks a bit wide at the nut. I thought this was a factor I'd like about the Gligas cause I have long slender fingers but believe it or not, I actually prefer a pretty thin neck I've found, especially at the nut.

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Edited by - EricBluegrassFiddle on 12/22/2015 03:31:06

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/22/2015:  05:38:09

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I apologize for upsetting you so much MSW.  I did not intend that list to encompass all trade instruments for all time.  Certainly some instruments coming in still fail quite badly in one or more of those areas.  Even more expensive ones often do.  I'm working on a couple at the moment that are beautiful, but surprisingly nasal.  That's not unusual.    

The $400 trade instrument linked actually has some very nice aspects that reflect good underlying design.  The neck / heel junction is done well.  Some of the cosmetic detailing isn't what I would do, but is pleasing.  My primary concern with the basic instrument would be the shiny finish.  Could be some of that thick modern finish, which doesn't help anything, but might be polished up something else, hard to tell from pictures.

I don't have any issue with buying direct - doesn't impact the market particularly.  Hand tools reflect the same diversity.  Some Chinese made tools are junk, most are serviceable, few come up to the standards expected by journeyman workers, very few pass for professional tools.  Some workers prefer vintage tools, some prefer high-end modern tools.  And with hand tools and fiddles, there's a certain quality level below which the product really isn't worth having, or gives more trouble than is worth taking on. 

 

mswlogo - Posted - 12/22/2015:  05:40:47

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Here is the terrible Viola I got for $275.00. I sold the other 3 at my cost of material after putting better strings, tail piece and wittner fine tune pegs on one.

These are very large photos so you can see the detail. Try Zooming once you open them.

farm1.staticflickr.com/754/239...1_o_d.jpg

farm1.staticflickr.com/672/239...3_o_d.jpg

farm6.staticflickr.com/5621/23...c_o_d.jpg

farm1.staticflickr.com/680/232...d_o_d.jpg

farm6.staticflickr.com/5630/23...9_o_d.jpg

farm6.staticflickr.com/5791/23...5_o_d.jpg

 

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/22/2015 05:52:45

mswlogo - Posted - 12/22/2015:  05:48:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by giannaviolins

 

I apologize for upsetting you so much MSW.  I did not intend that list to encompass all trade instruments for all time.  Certainly some instruments coming in still fail quite badly in one or more of those areas.  Even more expensive ones often do.  I'm working on a couple at the moment that are beautiful, but surprisingly nasal.  That's not unusual.    

The $400 trade instrument linked actually has some very nice aspects that reflect good underlying design.  The neck / heel junction is done well.  Some of the cosmetic detailing isn't what I would do, but is pleasing.  My primary concern with the basic instrument would be the shiny finish.  Could be some of that thick modern finish, which doesn't help anything, but might be polished up something else, hard to tell from pictures.

I don't have any issue with buying direct - doesn't impact the market particularly.  Hand tools reflect the same diversity.  Some Chinese made tools are junk, most are serviceable, few come up to the standards expected by journeyman workers, very few pass for professional tools.  Some workers prefer vintage tools, some prefer high-end modern tools.  And with hand tools and fiddles, there's a certain quality level below which the product really isn't worth having, or gives more trouble than is worth taking on. 

 

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I agree there is plenty of junk from china including fiddles and I have always stayed away from Auto mechanic tools made in China. But that's the stuff sold at big box stores. I'll bet if I hunted around there is high quality mechanics tools from china now too for less money. And the name brands sold here now are probably all made in china now anyway.

It doesn't have to be a trade fiddle to have the issues you describe either. Plenty of "bench" made junk out their too that cost $1000's

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/22/2015 05:50:03

mswlogo - Posted - 12/22/2015:  06:12:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

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Nobody in their right mind would do a repair like this to one of these fiddles. Unless it's for practice. They are NOT WORTH IT.

And I think you're both misleading folks to label everything from China as junk. And yes, there is plenty of junk too.

The photos you posted look like the $99.00 type (sold on amazon with bow, rosin and case and SPARE STRINGS !!). Was the purfling painted on? That's a hint it's junk by the way ;)

 

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Well, I am in my right mind, when a friend of mine asks for help I often give it freely. BTW, your not telling me anything that I do not already know. There were inquiries, and many folks never get to see the inside of the instrument.  So this is just an educational part. Informing the public is a service, and helps them to be aware of the problems that they can have choosing an instrument. Or helping a friend that may not be able to afford another one. So do not assume you have all the answers. Yes there was purfling installed. Perhaps in another ten years the instruments coming from China will have improved when the current students have completed their education. We just have  to wait and see what happens.

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I'd just buy them another fiddle if you want to help them, because it would have been cheaper. Unless you consider your time worthless. That is a complement not an insult. Your time has value. That fiddle, to me looks like the $99 variety. Also not meant as an insult. Around here it's hard to justify replacing a bridge on these. That's why I decided to repair the Viola myself. It would have cost 2x it's value to repair at a local shop. It was cheaper to just buy another one. Or use it as education. But for professional to fix one of these just seems wasteful, no matter the situation. Because there is ample supply of inexpensive, decent violins for cheap money. And that fiddle you repaired will probably have future problems.

 

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/22/2015:  06:26:32

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quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

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Originally posted by giannaviolins

 

I apologize for upsetting you so much MSW.  I did not intend that list to encompass all trade instruments for all time.  Certainly some instruments coming in still fail quite badly in one or more of those areas.  Even more expensive ones often do.  I'm working on a couple at the moment that are beautiful, but surprisingly nasal.  That's not unusual.    

The $400 trade instrument linked actually has some very nice aspects that reflect good underlying design.  The neck / heel junction is done well.  Some of the cosmetic detailing isn't what I would do, but is pleasing.  My primary concern with the basic instrument would be the shiny finish.  Could be some of that thick modern finish, which doesn't help anything, but might be polished up something else, hard to tell from pictures.

I don't have any issue with buying direct - doesn't impact the market particularly.  Hand tools reflect the same diversity.  Some Chinese made tools are junk, most are serviceable, few come up to the standards expected by journeyman workers, very few pass for professional tools.  Some workers prefer vintage tools, some prefer high-end modern tools.  And with hand tools and fiddles, there's a certain quality level below which the product really isn't worth having, or gives more trouble than is worth taking on. 

 

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I agree there is plenty of junk from china including fiddles and I have always stayed away from Auto mechanic tools made in China. But that's the stuff sold at big box stores. I'll bet if I hunted around there is high quality mechanics tools from china now too for less money. And the name brands sold here now are probably all made in china now anyway.

It doesn't have to be a trade fiddle to have the issues you describe either. Plenty of "bench" made junk out their too that cost $1000's

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Thank you for your clarification and apology, they are appreciated.  I have seen a goodly amount of expensive stuff that doesn't do well in many players' hands.  Also, instruments that refuse to speak for some players, but are very fine for others.  For example, some of the expensive old Cremonese stuff seems to prove demanding to play.

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/22/2015:  06:34:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddlemaker5224

 

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Nobody in their right mind would do a repair like this to one of these fiddles. Unless it's for practice. They are NOT WORTH IT.

And I think you're both misleading folks to label everything from China as junk. And yes, there is plenty of junk too.

The photos you posted look like the $99.00 type (sold on amazon with bow, rosin and case and SPARE STRINGS !!). Was the purfling painted on? That's a hint it's junk by the way ;)

 

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Well, I am in my right mind, when a friend of mine asks for help I often give it freely. BTW, your not telling me anything that I do not already know. There were inquiries, and many folks never get to see the inside of the instrument.  So this is just an educational part. Informing the public is a service, and helps them to be aware of the problems that they can have choosing an instrument. Or helping a friend that may not be able to afford another one. So do not assume you have all the answers. Yes there was purfling installed. Perhaps in another ten years the instruments coming from China will have improved when the current students have completed their education. We just have  to wait and see what happens.

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I'd just buy them another fiddle if you want to help them, because it would have been cheaper. Unless you consider your time worthless. That is a complement not an insult. Your time has value. That fiddle, to me looks like the $99 variety. Also not meant as an insult. Around here it's hard to justify replacing a bridge on these. That's why I decided to repair the Viola myself. It would have cost 2x it's value to repair at a local shop. It was cheaper to just buy another one. Or use it as education. But for professional to fix one of these just seems wasteful, no matter the situation. Because there is ample supply of inexpensive, decent violins for cheap money. And that fiddle you repaired will probably have future problems.

 

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These really low end things seem to be highly disposable to me.  Even the designed-for-school-use instruments are hardly worth fixing for a major crack.  They are fair sounding at best, are inexpensive, and were never intended to be any more than utilitarian place holders, even the robust outfits that are better made and marketed through the usual channels.  Anyone's time is worth more!   

quietglow - Posted - 12/22/2015:  09:20:23

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I think Eric's question has been pretty well answered: the way they can do this is a combination of currency disparity, quickness of work, and a variety of cut corners. The first fiddle I bought was from Yita and it LOOKS gorgeous, excepting the finish damage that happened because they likely packed it up before it was fully dry. It's very heavy and I'd guess this is probably because it wasn't fully graduated. It sounds pretty decent (from my beginner's perspective), and at least as good as some of much more expensive instruments I've played since. It cost about $225 shipped, and it definitely sounds much better than anything I could walk out of a shop with in Chicago for $225, particularly after I thinned out the bridge and set the soundpost properly. As Carl notes, it was likely also made with green wood, so who knows what it'll look like in a couple years.

But therein also is the reason I probably will never order another instrument from a Chinese direct seller, including their bench made "master" models: one thing I have learned very quickly is that fiddles vary widely in sound and beyond a certain baseline, the cost of the instrument does not indicate sound quality. The reason that you can walk into a shop in Chicago and buy a violin similar to my $225 Yita for $1500 is because that shop probably imports 5 relatively weak instruments for every gem, they have a return policy, rent to pay etc. I was okay gambling $225 on a student quality instrument, but before spending more than that I'd have to be able to play the instrument with no obligation.

mswlogo - Posted - 12/22/2015:  09:35:56

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I think a USA shop that does sell them for say $1500.00 doesn't buy bunches and cherry pick. I suspect they work more closely with a better shop and know they won't get paid if they don't meet some level of quality. Then they tweak them up when they arrive.

I agree with comments about green wood. It hard to verify anyones claim of how aged the wood is and it's source. And I can't claim anything on how these instruments might age. If it was really green I think you'd see the most several issues within a couple years. So far so good on all of them. Ranging from 1-3 years.

Also always upgrade the strings and tail piece. So my Viola technically is $275 + $125 for strings + $60 shipping + $20 for tail piece. But I change things to my preference on any fiddle. As shipped they were playable.

Like the China made Stringworks Soloist's I's were pretty darn nice. And I think some low end Eastmans come from china that are decent and I'm sure they don't cherry pick.

If they are poor varnished they all will be and that's kind of hard to fix after the deed is done.

 

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/22/2015:  14:09:00

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Eastman has their own shop, except for perhaps the VL80, and the consistency is excellent post-setup.  

Gatchell, for example, works with a bunch of shops that they control.  I've worked with a couple, but it's a lot of trouble!

EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 12/22/2015:  17:28:46

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To me varnish isn't such a big deal as long as it's not thick and gloopy. I kinda like fiddles with funky varnish jobs, gives em character. In the add it says these Chinese fiddles were "oil varnished" but doesn't say with what kind. Just from the perspective of giving them a glancing look at a bunch of up close photos and my untrained eye, they look very well made and I'm impressed. Doesn't mean I'd be impressed with the sound, although I prefer my Chinese fiddle over my Gliga. I don't like the clubby baseball necks that Gliga makes either. Som folks might like it but I found after time it didn't suit me.

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/22/2015:  19:30:08

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One would not be alone in a critical view of Gliga necks.  However, a neck is fairly easy to reduce and contour.  I would direct attention to the arching on the Gliga line, at least the way it used to be.  Could well be different now.  

The problem with the varnish on many of the shipped in instruments is that it seems more like lacquer, and does have a dampening effect, probably contributes to a nasal tone.  And does tend to get damaged in shipping.  

People have been well justified in respecting Chinese workmanship for a long time.  

 

EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 12/23/2015:  03:13:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by giannaviolins

 

One would not be alone in a critical view of Gliga necks.  However, a neck is fairly easy to reduce and contour.  I would direct attention to the arching on the Gliga line, at least the way it used to be.  Could well be different now.  

The problem with the varnish on many of the shipped in instruments is that it seems more like lacquer, and does have a dampening effect, probably contributes to a nasal tone.  And does tend to get damaged in shipping.  

People have been well justified in respecting Chinese workmanship for a long time.  

 

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Is it easy for someone, per say to buff off or sand off some of that varnish or remove it, maybe thin it out? Or even re varnish one with something thinner? Just curous

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/23/2015:  03:19:11

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revarnishing a fiddle is a real pain, especially without knowledge of what was initially used.  The problem isn't getting finish off in bulk, it's in getting the wood clean and clear looking.  Generally the finish or ground has soaked in a bit here and there.  It's difficult enough getting an unvarnished fiddle to take varnish evenly!

mswlogo - Posted - 12/23/2015:  06:17:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by EricBluegrassFiddle

quote:

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Originally posted by giannaviolins

 

One would not be alone in a critical view of Gliga necks.  However, a neck is fairly easy to reduce and contour.  I would direct attention to the arching on the Gliga line, at least the way it used to be.  Could well be different now.  

The problem with the varnish on many of the shipped in instruments is that it seems more like lacquer, and does have a dampening effect, probably contributes to a nasal tone.  And does tend to get damaged in shipping.  

People have been well justified in respecting Chinese workmanship for a long time.  

 

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Is it easy for someone, per say to buff off or sand off some of that varnish or remove it, maybe thin it out? Or even re varnish one with something thinner? Just curous

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revarnishing is generally considered a no-no unless really bad and can change the sound. It would also probably be more expensive than what you paid. Yes you could do some polishing and buffing though.

None of the ones I got were that bad at all. most just thick around the purfling. don't know how easy that would be to thin.

See photos of viola I just posted above.

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Edited by - mswlogo on 12/23/2015 06:18:37

Dick Hauser - Posted - 12/23/2015:  06:29:18

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Some European countries have sent luthiers to China in order to train personnel.  I don't think the really good Chinese fiddles are "cheap".  Some relatively inexpensive fiddles may be, but Eastman, Scott Cao, Snow, and some others keep getting more expensive.  American companies have fiddles made in China and finished in the U.S..  I have one of these fiddles.  Sounds good.  

Like most things, you probably get what you pay for.  If a person knows what to look for, they can still go to estate sales, auctions, garage sales, etc.. and get a good buy.  Especially on bows.  Watched "American Road Show" last week.  A "junker" fiddler was worth $2500, but the old French bow was worth $6K.  I'll bet there are some potentially good sounding fiddles hanging on walls.

quietglow - Posted - 12/23/2015:  07:24:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dick Hauser

Like most things, you probably get what you pay for.  If a person knows what to look for, they can still go to estate sales, auctions, garage sales, etc.. and get a good buy.  Especially on bows.  Watched "American Road Show" last week.  A "junker" fiddler was worth $2500, but the old French bow was worth $6K.  I'll bet there are some potentially good sounding fiddles hanging on walls.

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My main fiddle was exactly that. The woman I bought it from for $65 had it sitting on top of her piano for a decade. I had to repair the belly and wing cracks, but a similar one (French, made for Lyon & Healy in early 1900s) sold at auction for $3500 not long back. More importantly it sounds great. If you're lucky enough to be in an area with lots of estate sales and/or an active Craigslist, the dollars that will buy you a cheap new fiddle might could also buy you a snazzy old one. Patience helps a bunch!

DougD - Posted - 12/23/2015:  16:05:57

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They do it the same way they build Hoverboards, so I'd be a bit careful with these things.

bsed - Posted - 12/24/2015:  12:40:17

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 quote:

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Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

 

My advice: Play them, but also play a lot of other fiddles of different makes. I was in the market earlier this year. The first fiddle I tried was a fiddle that was beautifully (I thought) set up. Anyhow it was a much better setup than most other fiddles that I'd played. I went to a guy's house to try it out. I asked him 2 or 3 times where did it come from? He finally told me (like he was trying to avoid it) that it was Chinese. I didn't buy it, because I wanted to play a number of others. As I drove away from his house, I went over the whole try-out in my head, and there was something I didn't like. It wasn't the setup. Loved it. It wasn't the price ($250). Loved that. Then it struck me that the sound was not a warm sound, but I'd say cold and maybe somewhat metallic. Not the kind of sound I wanted.

So I'd use caution when looking at these Chinese fiddles. Some of them are pretty well made, but that ain't the whole story.

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So we should all use caution with Chinese fiddles because you heard ONE that wasn't warm to you.

Are there any other countries we should exclude that can't make a warm fiddle?

 

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Well, yeah. Not just "warmth" of tone, but there are myriad other problems associated with fiddles from many other countries. To wit:

Don't buy Syrian fiddles. I hear they're explosive.

Don't buy Russian fiddles. Putin inspects them shirtless (flip it upside down & see the chest hair fall out of the f-hole).

Don't buy English fiddles because the sound post is a real May Pole (they're REALLY big fiddles.)

Don't buy Canadian fiddles because they ALWAYS sound frigid (though I hear they've been warming in the last decade or so).

Don't buy Costa Rican fiddles because the sound is TOO warm.

Don't buy Danish fiddles because they sound too sweet.

Don't buy German fiddles because they're made too precisely. If you ever have to work on them, good luck getting 'em back together.

 

 

 

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Edited by - bsed on 12/24/2015 12:42:42