mswlogo - Posted - 05/28/2013:  14:04:23

I'm starting a new thread so I can edit it with updates.

The "joyee-music" ebay fiddle arrived.

I ordered it Monday Evening and they attempted delivery that Saturday at work. Amazingly USPS called me first and I asked to wait until Tuesday because I had it delivered to work.

First impressions are quite good.

I'm listing every Pro and Con nuance. Some are barely worth mentioning, but I'm trying to share what I've learned in the many little things that you might see.

I will keep updating the Pro's and Con's as I notice them.

Pros:

I like the finish.

I like the color.

Sounds pretty good even green with no name strings (no tweaks).

Packing pretty good. They did wrap the tail piece.

Nut looks good.

Post and Bridge stayed up even though strings were not very tight.

Strings don't sound all that bad. Except maybe E string sounds weird.

It is the fiddle that was in the ebay photo.

Appears to be ebony fingerboard.

Pegbox not roughly cut (I've seen some peg boxes on cheap fiddles that looked like a sawsall was used with thick walls. This looks pretty typical.

Nut to Bridge length looks good.

Fingerboard Projection at Bridge looks good 26mm

Pegs holding good.

End pin nice fit.

Weight is good 408 grams with no chinrest. Some cheap fiddles are to heavy or to light.

Fast shipping.

Sound is fabulous after 5 days of tonerite and some modest tweaks.

Cons:

Finish a little thick over the purfling. I've seen much worse on more expensive fiddles.

The bridge is cut backwards (should be perpendicular on the tail side). If you tilt it correctly the feet don't sit flat.

     I've seen other "professional" bridges cut backways. Not sure if it's just a preference for some Luther. Not a big deal. (FIXED)

Bridge is slightly thick, not bad. Seen professional bridges that look similar.

No E string cutting into bridge protection. (FIXED with sleeve)

Cuts in Bridge and Nut look a bit shallower than normal. Rather too shallow than too deep. Not bad though.

Chinrest Cork stuck to varnish (pretty common but less common on better fiddles) this cleaned up great with some polish (FIXED)

Case is stained with something (see photo) might just wash off. Don't really care about the case.

Bow unlatched in shipping. No damage.

Seam between fingerboard and neck not seamless. On good fiddle it should feel like one piece. This is NOT bad. And a good Luther to could probably make it perfect in 20 minutes.

Bow winding appears to be a sticker.

Neither Pro or Con:

 

Finger board thicker than my Rodney, but fine.

Have not tried bow yet. No rosin on it.

Unpacking Photos (Cell Phone):

Shipping Box: farm4.staticflickr.com/3787/88...a_h_d.jpg

Open Box: farm8.staticflickr.com/7356/88...a_h_d.jpg

Case Closed: farm3.staticflickr.com/2821/88...7_h_d.jpg

Case Opened: farm3.staticflickr.com/2888/88...4_h_d.jpg

Front Fiddle: farm9.staticflickr.com/8414/88...b_h_d.jpg

Side Fiddle: farm3.staticflickr.com/2865/88...3_h_d.jpg

Back Fiddle: farm6.staticflickr.com/5326/88...3_h_d.jpg

High Resolution Photos: (HUGE)

Front: farm6.staticflickr.com/5446/88...b_o_d.jpg

Back: farm9.staticflickr.com/8549/88...2_o_d.jpg (ignore weird reflection)

Peg Box: farm4.staticflickr.com/3757/88...6_o_d.jpg

Bridge Profile: farm4.staticflickr.com/3674/88...e_o_d.jpg

Simmering on the Tonerite: farm3.staticflickr.com/2831/88...0_h_d.jpg

Peg Box with WIttner Finetune Pegs: farm4.staticflickr.com/3753/90...2_o_d.jpg

Wittner Wire Mesh Tail Gut with Shrink Wrap protection: farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/90...a_c_d.jpg

Tweaks Done:

Fixed bridge by doing sand paper trick.

Upgraded to Dominant Strings.

Upgraded to Obligato Strings.

Upgraded to Pusch Tailpiece.

Upgraded to Wittner Tailpiece.

Upgraded Tailgut to Wire mesh type (forget who makes it Wittner?)

Ran Tonerite for 4 days so far (on high).

Upgraded to Wittner Chinrest.

Upgraded to Wittner Finetune Pegs (1st attempt w/ 7.8mm no reaming and slipped, 2nd attempt w/ 8.6mm with reaming and seems to be holding good)

Removed wire mesh tail gut, too much visible impression in such a short time. Wood might be softer than my other fiddle. Put Stock Wittner Nylon on.

 

TODO:

All Prior Todo's Done.

.

Edited by - mswlogo on 06/18/2013 15:45:06

faithwalk - Posted - 05/28/2013:  16:35:04

I'm really looking forward to your updates

Forest - Posted - 05/28/2013:  18:55:01

Your Ebay fiddle arrived very quickly! I have one on order and it should be here in a few weeks. Thanks for sharing your impressions of the violin. The quality is quite good, in my opinion. I'm not a professional musican by far, but do recognize good craftsmanship when I see it. Am looking forward to seeing and perhaps hearing your new acquisition! In the mean time, Glad it arrived in good condition, and enjoy!

Forest - Posted - 05/29/2013:  06:22:17

Excellent pictures, very nice indeed, I like it. Curious on how it sounds with your new strings, etc, added.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/29/2013:  06:51:54

A few years back, a very similar Chinese violin showed up at a local music shop... very similar lines and antiquing.

Sounded pretty good too, but there was a crack.... in the FINGERBOARD... near the nut, a split about 3/4 inch long in the middle between the D and A strings.  A cosmetic issue at that place, but that told me that the wood for the fingerboard wasn't properly cured, and did its shrinking on the instrument.

Now, that may well have been a different workshop, but if corners were cut, that's likely the kind of corners that were cut.

Labor is cheap in China.... materials, not so much.

So I'd resist the temptation to use it as a total beater, at least for a while....I'd baby it, keep it away from extremes of heat and dryness... shouldn't be TOO hard to do this time of year where you live, but I wouldn't use it for your fiddle for playing outdoors in the sun.... at least for the time being until things settle in.

mswlogo - Posted - 05/29/2013:  09:05:55

I had two new sets of strings on hand Obligato's and Dominants. I planned to test the Dominant's one day on my best fiddle and the Obligato's are may favorites and I always keep one spare set.

I didn't want to use my expensive Obligato's on this just yet (saving those for Camp coming up). So I used the Dominants. The original strings really were not bad at all, but I have no idea what they are so even if I grew to like them I'd have hard time to replacing them. So on the shelf they go for now.

This is my first experience installing Dominants. They settled much faster than I expected given what I have read about them in how slow they are to break in. I put a Jargar E on. E sounded much better now (or what I'm used to).

Surprisingly not much change overnight with ToneRite. Obligato's would have been down 2 full notes overnite. Dominants were only down a half step at most.

One thing I have learned is a good, well setup fiddle drones much easier (for me). Currently it sounds absolutely fine on all strings but it does not drone easy. But I'm comparing to 2 well broken in top notch fiddles that I tweaked quite a bit with different strings.

I practiced a tune I have not played for while last night and tried to "relearn" it by ear on the China fiddle. I struggled a bit finding some notes but eventually got most of it. Then I went to Rodney and immediately found all my mistakes.

Basically the Rodney has pinpoint clarity the China fiddle does not have (yet, maybe).

I may have to put Obligato's on. So expensive finding a matching string that may cost more than the fiddle.

I'm sure what I'm used to is a big factor too.

There is no doubt this fiddle is worth $250.00 I'm just curious how good I can get it and that takes time and $$$.

The China fiddle was so good I was a bit worried I was more insane than I thought about having a custom fiddle being built now. But after picking up the Rodney I said phew to myself.

I'm sure in my first year I would not be able to tell the difference.

By the way I have seen this fiddle from same seller go for around $160 + $60 shipping. I think fast shipping is worth it and less time in shipping less likely to get damaged.

 I'd appreciate someone commenting on the backwards cut bridge. Is it legit to cut it the this way?

Edited by - mswlogo on 05/29/2013 09:20:59

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/29/2013:  13:25:06

All I know is that 5 out of 6 problems you mentioned involved the bridge... so I'd seriously consider just having a new one made for it.

That would probably go a long way towards getting it's sound closer to the Rodney, if that's what you really want.

In fact, you might have the person who does the bridge do measurements on the Rodney's bridge so that the angles and spacing are nearly identical.

In the meantime, tweak away on the one it has.... you'll learn some things.  Or keep it for a spare.

Yeah, I figure less time in shipping WOULD be a good thing!

mswlogo - Posted - 05/29/2013:  14:31:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

All I know is that 5 out of 6 problems you mentioned involved the bridge... so I'd seriously consider just having a new one made for it.

That would probably go a long way towards getting it's sound closer to the Rodney, if that's what you really want.

In fact, you might have the person who does the bridge do measurements on the Rodney's bridge so that the angles and spacing are nearly identical.

In the meantime, tweak away on the one it has.... you'll learn some things.  Or keep it for a spare.

Yeah, I figure less time in shipping WOULD be a good thing!

 

---

Yeah I'll either try to cut a bridge myself or tweak this one. I don't think it's impacting the sound all that much. I've had my bridges leaning the wrong way further than this :) without much audible impact.

The new strings have the E sleeve to protect bridge cutting.

I do feel a good fiddle has wider range of what it can sound like, mostly based on strings than a weaker fiddle. So once I think I have things sorted out if I want a warm sound I put warm strings, if I want bright I put bright strings.

If a fiddle is dull/muted/overly warm it may only sound decent with a bright string. That's just my theory, subject to change at any moment :)

It's not a goal to sound like the Rodney. No point in having 3 fiddles sound the same. But the question is, is it flexible that I could I have it sound like the Rodney if I wanted to? And if I could, then perhaps it's "good enough" to choose something else (say Steel Core for Old Time or Gut Strings for Some Classical Dabbling around). So I'm curious of it's limits and can only compare what I have.

mswlogo - Posted - 05/30/2013:  21:00:41

Ok,

I fixed the bridge (using sand paper trick), not the best, but much better.

I put on the Wittner Tailpiece on with a steel braided tail gut (same as I have on Rodney). This has been on my Rodney for a year and I have not had any cutting in issues.

I went ahead and put Obligato's on.

Sounded like crap.

So I put the ToneRite on and went to bed.

Next Morning, it was a whole new fiddle.

Clearer, Sweeter, Drones easier. Still not as refined or sweet as my other fiddles. Nor does it drone as easy. But scary close. You might just say different too. More grit.

I give most credit to the Obligato's they really can bring out some good stuff in most fiddles. If you like synthetics these should be on your list to try.

I bought a new Zhu for $3K with Dominants on it (which I returned) and this sounds better and looks better. It may have been the Dominants though.

This fiddle might sound more refined after a year or so of playing and aging.

Edited by - mswlogo on 05/30/2013 21:02:37

mswlogo - Posted - 06/01/2013:  09:59:33

I've been thinking about this little project and I think I came to realize something.

If I had bought the fiddle on say a 3 day trial without the ToneRite I may have returned it.

The ToneRite allowed me to do experiments that normally might take weeks (or longer) in just a few days.

I think I have returned fiddles that may have been great but I could not play them in fast enough (and try different strings) and stay within the trial period.

It takes time to assess fiddle, especially a green one. The Tonerite makes it more feasible to assess it in much less time. I didn't buy the tonerite for this purpose.

I bought to keep my fiddles in shape if they got neglected now and then.

By the way one morning when I went to check on the fiddle after cooking overnight the A string peg popped. As I went to fix the A string peg the E and G let go.

Every fiddle I have owned (I lost count) has done this at one point or another.

Alas, I ordered some Wittner Finetune Pegs.

mswlogo - Posted - 06/03/2013:  09:54:17

Went away this weekend from Friday to late Sunday.

All 4 pegs popped. I hate wood pegs. House was pretty hot though (90's). My perfection Peg fiddle right next to it, was not even out of tune.

Luckily, for this reason, I did not leave Tonerite on it over the week end after it had popped one peg.

Wittner finetune pegs can't get here soon enough. I ordered both sizes.

faithwalk - Posted - 06/03/2013:  09:58:28

Thanks for the updates. 90's....must be dry heat for pegs to pop??  It's still cold up North where I live.

mswlogo - Posted - 06/03/2013:  10:59:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by faithwalk

 

Thanks for the updates. 90's....must be dry heat for pegs to pop??  It's still cold up North where I live.

---

No it wasn't dry heat. That's what's kind of weird.

I always try to wedge them just enough to hold, but no more, especially as humidity is going up. Maybe I was a little too polite.

Forest - Posted - 06/04/2013:  17:56:42

Glad to see you are enjoying the new violin. I received the Roy Kansi yesterday, very fast 5 day shipping from Anping. I am blown away again, by the quality of this one, very nice wood, finish and excellent tone, even with the factory strings!  I plan to put on Helicore mediums on it in a few days. Very pleased, and it's safe for me to say, that Chinese violins are a good buy, if you choose wisely...

NicknamedTanner - Posted - 06/05/2013:  09:53:41

I just received a Maggini copy and a Strad copy from violin-shops on ebay. I paid less than $165 without the shipping for each. They both came with a cheap case , a bow and rosin. First impression is good. They look nice. There is some setup that will be needed. I'll write up something better when I get a chance to go over everything in the next couple of days.

mswlogo - Posted - 06/10/2013:  09:21:00

I updated the opening post with a photo of the Wittner Finetune Pegs installed.

faithwalk - Posted - 06/10/2013:  09:34:36

Good job on the pegs

mswlogo - Posted - 06/12/2013:  17:59:53

I had my teacher try it.

She said she doesn't like it. She said it was no comparison to my other fiddles. She said the lowest end Eastman would sound better. But perhaps not as pretty.

I was sort of glad and sad at the same time. Glad that perhaps I did get what I paid for on my other fiddles. Sad that my ears didn't think difference was as wide as she thinks it is.

I did say my other fiddles were more pinpoint clear than this one (and that's what she said as well). So, do hear a difference. Maybe that difference does cost $$$ to get what my ears think is a modest difference.

She thinks a less high end string might do better. She thinks the Obligato's are trying to make the fiddle do stuff it can't do. She suggested something like a Helicore.

NicknamedTanner - Posted - 06/13/2013:  08:34:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

I had my teacher try it.

She said she doesn't like it. She said it was no comparison to my other fiddles. She said the lowest end Eastman would sound better. But perhaps not as pretty.

I was sort of glad and sad at the same time. Glad that perhaps I did get what I paid for on my other fiddles. Sad that my ears didn't think difference was as wide as she thinks it is.

I did say my other fiddles were more pinpoint clear than this one (and that's what she said as well). So, do hear a difference. Maybe that difference does cost $$$ to get what my ears think is a modest difference.

She thinks a less high end string might do better. She thinks the Obligato's are trying to make the fiddle do stuff it can't do. She suggested something like a Helicore.

 

---

 Not that this is going to turn it all around but did you cut a new bridge for it? The new bridge I cut for my strad copy helped a lot. Is my new strad copy as sweet, clear, responsive or focused and my main $900 strad copy? No, but the new box also doesn't have 5 years worth of playing on it. Also the new strad has Helicores and my main strad has Infeld reds on it. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

The new one has some playing in to be done,but it has a nice gritty fiddle tone that I quite like. Lively and balanced. This as it is, has honky tonk , OT, BG or hoe down fiddle written all over it. Its got an edge to it but not shrill at all. It would cut through a jam nicely. I would have paid at least $450-$500 in a store with a proper set up.

I look forward to seeing it open up  a little as I play it in hard over the next 6 months. Its by no means a world beater, but its worth more than every penny I spent on it. I have certainly heard $300-$400 fiddle that sounded far worse. I have also heard a bunch of old German trade fiddles that don't have near the balance across the strings. A lot of them being treble dominant(shrill) with a weak G and sometimes D string. I guess thats why so many get regraduated and new bass bars.

faithwalk - Posted - 06/13/2013:  09:03:49

NicknamedTanner:  Just curious how far the post is from the bridge foot? Sometimes having the post further back helps the sound be more open.

mswlogo - Posted - 06/13/2013:  09:35:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by NicknamedTanner

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

I had my teacher try it.

She said she doesn't like it. She said it was no comparison to my other fiddles. She said the lowest end Eastman would sound better. But perhaps not as pretty.

I was sort of glad and sad at the same time. Glad that perhaps I did get what I paid for on my other fiddles. Sad that my ears didn't think difference was as wide as she thinks it is.

I did say my other fiddles were more pinpoint clear than this one (and that's what she said as well). So, do hear a difference. Maybe that difference does cost $$$ to get what my ears think is a modest difference.

She thinks a less high end string might do better. She thinks the Obligato's are trying to make the fiddle do stuff it can't do. She suggested something like a Helicore.

 

---

 Not that this is going to turn it all around but did you cut a new bridge for it? The new bridge I cut for my strad copy helped a lot. Is my new strad copy as sweet, clear, responsive or focused and my main $900 strad copy? No, but the new box also doesn't have 5 years worth of playing on it. Also the new strad has Helicores and my main strad has Infeld reds on it. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

The new one has some playing in to be done,but it has a nice gritty fiddle tone that I quite like. Lively and balanced. This as it is, has honky tonk , OT, BG or hoe down fiddle written all over it. Its got an edge to it but not shrill at all. It would cut through a jam nicely. I would have paid at least $450-$500 in a store with a proper set up.

I look forward to seeing it open up  a little as I play it in hard over the next 6 months. Its by no means a world beater, but its worth more than every penny I spent on it. I have certainly heard $300-$400 fiddle that sounded far worse. I have also heard a bunch of old German trade fiddles that don't have near the balance across the strings. A lot of them being treble dominant(shrill) with a weak G and sometimes D string. I guess thats why so many get regraduated and new bass bars.

 

---

I agree the fiddle could still improve a lot. By years of playing and yes a new Bridge and Post Check might help. But help what, my dumb ear already thought it was pretty good.

I'm a little concerned about it being a money pit. I've already put ~$200.00 into it.

I can understand her saying it wasn't super duper, but she pretty much said it was barely worth what I paid. But she did say she has heard worse for more money.

I think if I played it for a few months maybe my ear would hear the difference she hears more clearly and what it does not do right. But her way more experienced ears can hear (what she likes to hear) quicker.

I'm hoping that difference I do hear is what she hears and as my ears mature that little difference will grow wider.

I really feel I can hear huge differences in fiddles now that I could not when I started but those might be between utter crap and decent. Hearing the difference between decent ones as you move up gets harder and more subjective.

Then again, my teacher came close to saying this was utter crap :(

That's why I'm so confused. What were the ones I thought were bad?

It is just one opinion, but I highly respect it.

faithwalk - Posted - 06/13/2013:  09:40:58

Did you listen to your teacher play it?  ..listen from a distance having her play this one and your other violin?  Or are you going by what you heard while playing it yourself?

NicknamedTanner - Posted - 06/13/2013:  09:48:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by faithwalk

 

NicknamedTanner:  Just curious how far the post is from the bridge foot? Sometimes having the post further back helps the sound be more open.

---

Right now its 2.5mm from the outer edge of the treble foot and 4mm behind it. Most of my other set up have ended with it about 1.5mm from the outer edge and 3.5mm behind. I'm going to play with the post again at some point, but right now it pretty even in volume and tone as I play up the string. Which is something I like, but I don't believe I found the post sweet spot yet.

Forest - Posted - 06/13/2013:  09:55:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by NicknamedTanner

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

I had my teacher try it.

She said she doesn't like it. She said it was no comparison to my other fiddles. She said the lowest end Eastman would sound better. But perhaps not as pretty.

I was sort of glad and sad at the same time. Glad that perhaps I did get what I paid for on my other fiddles. Sad that my ears didn't think difference was as wide as she thinks it is.

I did say my other fiddles were more pinpoint clear than this one (and that's what she said as well). So, do hear a difference. Maybe that difference does cost $$$ to get what my ears think is a modest difference.

She thinks a less high end string might do better. She thinks the Obligato's are trying to make the fiddle do stuff it can't do. She suggested something like a Helicore.

 

---

 Not that this is going to turn it all around but did you cut a new bridge for it? The new bridge I cut for my strad copy helped a lot. Is my new strad copy as sweet, clear, responsive or focused and my main $900 strad copy? No, but the new box also doesn't have 5 years worth of playing on it. Also the new strad has Helicores and my main strad has Infeld reds on it. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

The new one has some playing in to be done,but it has a nice gritty fiddle tone that I quite like. Lively and balanced. This as it is, has honky tonk , OT, BG or hoe down fiddle written all over it. Its got an edge to it but not shrill at all. It would cut through a jam nicely. I would have paid at least $450-$500 in a store with a proper set up.

I look forward to seeing it open up  a little as I play it in hard over the next 6 months. Its by no means a world beater, but its worth more than every penny I spent on it. I have certainly heard $300-$400 fiddle that sounded far worse. I have also heard a bunch of old German trade fiddles that don't have near the balance across the strings. A lot of them being treble dominant(shrill) with a weak G and sometimes D string. I guess thats why so many get regraduated and new bass bars.

 

---

I agree the fiddle could still improve a lot. By years of playing and yes a new Bridge and Post Check might help. But help what, my dumb ear already thought it was pretty good.

I'm a little concerned about it being a money pit. I've already put ~$200.00 into it.

I can understand her saying it wasn't super duper, but she pretty much said it was barely worth what I paid. But she did say she has heard worse for more money.

I think if I played it for a few months maybe my ear would hear the difference she hears more clearly and what it does not do right. But her way more experienced ears can hear (what she likes to hear) quicker.

I'm hoping that difference I do hear is what she hears and as my ears mature that little difference will grow wider.

I really feel I can hear huge differences in fiddles now that I could not when I started but those might be between utter crap and decent. Hearing the difference between decent ones as you move up gets harder and more subjective.

Then again, my teacher came close to saying this was utter crap :(

That's why I'm so confused. What were the ones I thought were bad?

It is just one opinion, but I highly respect it.

---

I wouldn't get bent out of shape over something as trivial as this, trust me. Violin tone is subjective at best, and we all have differing opinions, so just take it with a grain of salt, and enjoy the instrument!  Some musicians can be very biased when you mention the words "Chinese made", but many musicians are using them, even in orchestras and on stage. Only time will tell, but I believe that many of these newer instruments will be the Mirecourt's, Mittenwald's and even Cremona's of tomorrow, and certainly will only improve with playing and age.

I believe a concert violinist could make a $200 Eastman sound very close to a a 18th C. Italian. It's mostly who is playing it that makes it sound the way it does. 

Edited by - Forest on 06/13/2013 10:01:46

mswlogo - Posted - 06/13/2013:  09:58:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by faithwalk

 

Did you listen to your teacher play it?  ..listen from a distance having her play this one and your other violin?  Or are you going by what you heard while playing it yourself?

---

I did not play it for her, she played it for her self (as I did). She sounds good playing anything. It could be a cigar box fiddle and it would sound good.

She does have MUCH younger ears and mine always have a Musician ear plug in it (15 dB), no matter what, if I have fiddle in my hand and I know it impairs my listening.

But I won't risk it any more even for a short while. Not worth the risk enjoying all kinds of music, including stuff I don't play.

NicknamedTanner - Posted - 06/13/2013:  10:14:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by NicknamedTanner

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

  

I had my teacher try it.

She said she doesn't like it. She said it was no comparison to my other fiddles. She said the lowest end Eastman would sound better. But perhaps not as pretty.

I was sort of glad and sad at the same time. Glad that perhaps I did get what I paid for on my other fiddles. Sad that my ears didn't think difference was as wide as she thinks it is.

I did say my other fiddles were more pinpoint clear than this one (and that's what she said as well). So, do hear a difference. Maybe that difference does cost $$$ to get what my ears think is a modest difference.

She thinks a less high end string might do better. She thinks the Obligato's are trying to make the fiddle do stuff it can't do. She suggested something like a Helicore.

 

---

 Not that this is going to turn it all around but did you cut a new bridge for it? The new bridge I cut for my strad copy helped a lot. Is my new strad copy as sweet, clear, responsive or focused and my main $900 strad copy? No, but the new box also doesn't have 5 years worth of playing on it. Also the new strad has Helicores and my main strad has Infeld reds on it. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

The new one has some playing in to be done,but it has a nice gritty fiddle tone that I quite like. Lively and balanced. This as it is, has honky tonk , OT, BG or hoe down fiddle written all over it. Its got an edge to it but not shrill at all. It would cut through a jam nicely. I would have paid at least $450-$500 in a store with a proper set up.

I look forward to seeing it open up  a little as I play it in hard over the next 6 months. Its by no means a world beater, but its worth more than every penny I spent on it. I have certainly heard $300-$400 fiddle that sounded far worse. I have also heard a bunch of old German trade fiddles that don't have near the balance across the strings. A lot of them being treble dominant(shrill) with a weak G and sometimes D string. I guess thats why so many get regraduated and new bass bars.

 

---

I agree the fiddle could still improve a lot. By years of playing and yes a new Bridge and Post Check might help. But help what, my dumb ear already thought it was pretty good.

I'm a little concerned about it being a money pit. I've already put ~$200.00 into it.

I can understand her saying it wasn't super duper, but she pretty much said it was barely worth what I paid. But she did say she has heard worse for more money.

I think if I played it for a few months maybe my ear would hear the difference she hears more clearly and what it does not do right. But her way more experienced ears can hear (what she likes to hear) quicker.

I'm hoping that difference I do hear is what she hears and as my ears mature that little difference will grow wider.

I really feel I can hear huge differences in fiddles now that I could not when I started but those might be between utter crap and decent. Hearing the difference between decent ones as you move up gets harder and more subjective.

Then again, my teacher came close to saying this was utter crap :(

That's why I'm so confused. What were the ones I thought were bad?

It is just one opinion, but I highly respect it.

---

I totally understand.

I, myself have a hard time hearing the difference between $3,000 and $5,000 instruments and so on down line in the cost factor. The difference between $1,000 and $5,000 is easily heard by myself. The difference between $500 and $1,000 is there but a whole lot closer in sound to my ears.

Some of it depends on the sound your looking for. I've played with a few people that played some subpar violins by any standard but the crunchy fiddle tone that came out of them was awesome. They certainly lacked clarity and focus, but the sound they made with it was the sound they loved.

I respect anybody with a highly trained ear, but we know sound is very subjective.  I love bluegrass, oldtime, folksy, bluesy music a lot. My father pretty much hates it, yet he could listen to score from Superman composed by John Williams over and over.

I'm not saying she is wrong about your other fiddles sounding better, because on the standards of instrument quality your other fiddles probably are. However comparing it to Rodney isn't exactly fair. I'm not sure if your ears liked it from the begining that I could go as far as calling it utter crap. I have played a few violins that sounded great, but in general didn't sound very fiddley to me.

The one thing thats never probably going to develop in these Ebay violins is quick, brilliant responsiveness. That really seems to be some that comes with $$$$.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/13/2013:  10:55:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

I had my teacher try it.

She said she doesn't like it. She said it was no comparison to my other fiddles. She said the lowest end Eastman would sound better. But perhaps not as pretty.

I was sort of glad and sad at the same time. Glad that perhaps I did get what I paid for on my other fiddles. Sad that my ears didn't think difference was as wide as she thinks it is.

I did say my other fiddles were more pinpoint clear than this one (and that's what she said as well). So, do hear a difference. Maybe that difference does cost $$$ to get what my ears think is a modest difference.

She thinks a less high end string might do better. She thinks the Obligato's are trying to make the fiddle do stuff it can't do. She suggested something like a Helicore.

 

---

She makes a good point about the strings.... people buy strings because the pros use them, forgetting that their violins are not pro violins.

AND the same thing actually is true for violins.... people buy violins the pros approve of, forgetting that they aren't pro players.

OFTEN beginners to intermediate players don't need pinpoint clarity.... they need something more forgiving for a while.  Then, when enough bow control is achieved, all of a sudden, the pinpoint clarity is something you can make work for you.

By all means, try the Helicores... maybe Zyex too.... it's been said they sound good on cheaper fiddles, and that seems to be true of them on mine.

While not exactly a beater, you might find that with the right strings, it'll sound good enough to jam on, and you have little enough invested in it that you'll be able to relax with it at jams... (or sessions, if that's more ot your liking) and have fun.  Pretty soon, without realizing it, you'll be sounding better, and then those nicer ones you've got may take your playing to a higher level.

Re the earplug- good idea, but try the Hearos High Fidelity... kind of a silvery looking clear plastic.  They let just enough of the highs through that speech and music sounds natural, even if the volume is lower.

elf1654 - Posted - 06/14/2013:  04:19:00

Hate to hear of the bad report on the violin. But take heart and don't let it get you down. When I read something like this I tend to remember the words and wisdom of some well respected members of this forum.  For instance, Michael of KC Fiddles has posted many times that many of the issues with a violin can be traced simply to setup. This of course will not a make a 10 dollar fiddle into a 10,000 dollar violin but with the right setup the instrument can sound pretty good.  h

I seem to recall a short video of the late great Tommy Jarrell being offered to play a very old and expensive Strad (I think it was in a museum). Mr. Jarrell didn't care too much for the fiddle. His opinion of course, the instrument didn't suit him and he said so. Although I think the poor museum curator thought Mr. Jarrell's opinion wrong. LOL  Your teacher's opinion was just that, nothing personal I'm sure but not her cup of tea it seems. 

Strings magazine posted a link yesterday about the sound of three violin priced from 100 bucks to whatever millions the last one cost. They even offer a online blind test to pick out which was which.

ttp://telegraph.co.uk/culture...l-ear.html

Rusty

Forest - Posted - 06/14/2013:  07:25:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forest

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by NicknamedTanner

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

 

I had my teacher try it.

She said she doesn't like it. She said it was no comparison to my other fiddles. She said the lowest end Eastman would sound better. But perhaps not as pretty.

I was sort of glad and sad at the same time. Glad that perhaps I did get what I paid for on my other fiddles. Sad that my ears didn't think difference was as wide as she thinks it is.

I did say my other fiddles were more pinpoint clear than this one (and that's what she said as well). So, do hear a difference. Maybe that difference does cost $$$ to get what my ears think is a modest difference.

She thinks a less high end string might do better. She thinks the Obligato's are trying to make the fiddle do stuff it can't do. She suggested something like a Helicore.

 

---

 Not that this is going to turn it all around but did you cut a new bridge for it? The new bridge I cut for my strad copy helped a lot. Is my new strad copy as sweet, clear, responsive or focused and my main $900 strad copy? No, but the new box also doesn't have 5 years worth of playing on it. Also the new strad has Helicores and my main strad has Infeld reds on it. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

The new one has some playing in to be done,but it has a nice gritty fiddle tone that I quite like. Lively and balanced. This as it is, has honky tonk , OT, BG or hoe down fiddle written all over it. Its got an edge to it but not shrill at all. It would cut through a jam nicely. I would have paid at least $450-$500 in a store with a proper set up.

I look forward to seeing it open up  a little as I play it in hard over the next 6 months. Its by no means a world beater, but its worth more than every penny I spent on it. I have certainly heard $300-$400 fiddle that sounded far worse. I have also heard a bunch of old German trade fiddles that don't have near the balance across the strings. A lot of them being treble dominant(shrill) with a weak G and sometimes D string. I guess thats why so many get regraduated and new bass bars.

 

---

I agree the fiddle could still improve a lot. By years of playing and yes a new Bridge and Post Check might help. But help what, my dumb ear already thought it was pretty good.

I'm a little concerned about it being a money pit. I've already put ~$200.00 into it.

I can understand her saying it wasn't super duper, but she pretty much said it was barely worth what I paid. But she did say she has heard worse for more money.

I think if I played it for a few months maybe my ear would hear the difference she hears more clearly and what it does not do right. But her way more experienced ears can hear (what she likes to hear) quicker.

I'm hoping that difference I do hear is what she hears and as my ears mature that little difference will grow wider.

I really feel I can hear huge differences in fiddles now that I could not when I started but those might be between utter crap and decent. Hearing the difference between decent ones as you move up gets harder and more subjective.

Then again, my teacher came close to saying this was utter crap :(

That's why I'm so confused. What were the ones I thought were bad?

It is just one opinion, but I highly respect it.

---

I wouldn't get bent out of shape over something as trivial as this, trust me. Violin tone is subjective at best, and we all have differing opinions, so just take it with a grain of salt, and enjoy the instrument!  Some musicians can be very biased when you mention the words "Chinese made", but many musicians are using them, even in orchestras and on stage. Only time will tell, but I believe that many of these newer instruments will be the Mirecourt's, Mittenwald's and even Cremona's of tomorrow, and certainly will only improve with playing and age.

I believe a concert violinist could make a $200 Eastman sound very close to a a 18th C. Italian. It's mostly who is playing it that makes it sound the way it does. 

---

Interesting sound test, thanks for the link!  I passed the test on the three violins, 100%. I did say "very close", didn't I? haha The Strad did jump out at you, much more refined and clear notes than the 18th C. The budget violin was quite obvious.

mswlogo - Posted - 06/14/2013:  11:52:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo 

Re the earplug- good idea, but try the Hearos High Fidelity... kind of a silvery looking clear plastic.  They let just enough of the highs through that speech and music sounds natural, even if the volume is lower.

---

I use Musician ear plugs. etymotic.com/hp/erme.html

I tried many over the counter versions (including Hearos) and these sound the most natural.

DougD - Posted - 06/14/2013:  12:07:40

"I'm a little concerned about it being a money pit. I've already put ~$200.00 into it."  I've been wondering about this - maybe you should retitle the thread to "What do you get from China for $450 delivered," since that's really what its worked out to be.

I'm sorry to hear your teacher's opinion of the violin, but that's still just one person's opinion. I hope you still will enjoy it and at least find some use for it.

I seldom buy new instruments, but I've found its a good idea to play a new acquisition for awhile if possible before you begin fooling around with it, to see what its like and what potential it might have before you begin spending more money.

slefenfeld - Posted - 06/14/2013:  19:30:06

Nicknamed Tanner suggested that "the one thing thats never probably going to develop in these Ebay violins is quick, brilliant responsiveness. That really seems to be some that comes with $$$$." 

I don't know about this.  I just bought (another) violin from ebay - from A. Cavallo Violin's ebay store  (Ebay name "ollavaca").  I was looking for a fiddle to keep cross-tuned, and happened upon a violin that didn't seem to be garnering too much interest and so contacted the seller to find out more information about it.  Alex was truly helpful and patient in answering my questions and I ended up being the high bidder.  The violin is labeled "Ligetti", probably made in China - I guess the manufacturer makes them in a couple of different places and Cavallo's got it from the manufacturer.  It has a vibrant bright  (as opposed to an obnoxious bright) sound, has a lovely finish and is so well set up and easy to play that I decided leave one of my other violins cross-tuned, instead.  Extremely responsive and very easy to catch the drone and to play doublestops.  I brought it with me to a lesson and my bluegrass playing teacher liked it.  It is my only violin without a  wittner tailpiece with built in tuner - I bought one to put on, but haven't bothered as it has been staying in tune since two days after arriving from Nebraska.  (There is a fine tuner on the E string.) I've had it a little over a week and have been playing a couple hours a night - and more than that over last weekend.  I'm headed to bluegrass week at Kaufman in Tennessee on Sunday and am planning to take it with me instead of my usual violin. I'm thinking that this may fast become my "usual" violin, at least for Celtic and bluegrass music.  

NicknamedTanner - Posted - 06/15/2013:  08:36:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by slefenfeld

 

Nicknamed Tanner suggested that "the one thing thats never probably going to develop in these Ebay violins is quick, brilliant responsiveness. That really seems to be some that comes with $$$$." 

I don't know about this.  I just bought (another) violin from ebay - from A. Cavallo Violin's ebay store  (Ebay name "ollavaca").  I was looking for a fiddle to keep cross-tuned, and happened upon a violin that didn't seem to be garnering too much interest and so contacted the seller to find out more information about it.  Alex was truly helpful and patient in answering my questions and I ended up being the high bidder.  The violin is labeled "Ligetti", probably made in China - I guess the manufacturer makes them in a couple of different places and Cavallo's got it from the manufacturer.  It has a vibrant bright  (as opposed to an obnoxious bright) sound, has a lovely finish and is so well set up and easy to play that I decided leave one of my other violins cross-tuned, instead.  Extremely responsive and very easy to catch the drone and to play doublestops.  I brought it with me to a lesson and my bluegrass playing teacher liked it.  It is my only violin without a  wittner tailpiece with built in tuner - I bought one to put on, but haven't bothered as it has been staying in tune since two days after arriving from Nebraska.  (There is a fine tuner on the E string.) I've had it a little over a week and have been playing a couple hours a night - and more than that over last weekend.  I'm headed to bluegrass week at Kaufman in Tennessee on Sunday and am planning to take it with me instead of my usual violin. I'm thinking that this may fast become my "usual" violin, at least for Celtic and bluegrass music.  

---

Cool. Its good to here you got a keeper of of Ebay. Neither of the 2 I got off Ebay are sluggish by any means. Just not quite as responsive as my main strad. They will both make fine fiddles for certain styles.

The quick brilliant responsiveness I was talking about isn't even in my main strad copy. I'm sure it exists in sub $1,000 instruments. I've just never played one that responded the way I'm talking about. I didn't even really know what I'm talking about existed until I played a few instruments in the $3,000-$5,000 range. The first two I ever noticed it on were a 1923 Roth and a mid 1920's Juzek Master Art. Just really, really crisp and responsive violins. My main box is no slouch, but this was a different league they were in.

faithwalk - Posted - 06/15/2013:  10:22:39

slefenfeld-  Thanks for sharing your ebay experience. I checked out that seller (ollavaca) and saw that he was selling one like the one you bought. I asked a bunch of last minute questions and everything check out good. So, I bid and got it for $340.  So, when it arrives I'll start a post on it and let you know what I think of it.

mswlogo - Posted - 06/16/2013:  21:02:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

"I'm a little concerned about it being a money pit. I've already put ~$200.00 into it."  I've been wondering about this - maybe you should retitle the thread to "What do you get from China for $450 delivered," since that's really what its worked out to be.

I'm sorry to hear your teacher's opinion of the violin, but that's still just one person's opinion. I hope you still will enjoy it and at least find some use for it.

I seldom buy new instruments, but I've found its a good idea to play a new acquisition for awhile if possible before you begin fooling around with it, to see what its like and what potential it might have before you begin spending more money.

---

I agree with getting a solid baseline first. But even if I liked the strings I would not be able to replace them.

I hate using a fiddle without fine tuners.

Since I was running the Tonerite with it, it was important pegs never pop.

aravis19 - Posted - 06/22/2013:  00:17:09

Hi all,



I just discovered this site and therefore am pretty new here. Hello to you all and thanks for all the shared inputs.

I decided to give these ebay Chinese violins a try November last year and after reading reviews from forums for a reputable ebay seller, my options were narrowed down to 2 sellers: (1) Yita Music and (2) Old Violin House. I wasn't ready to shell out more than $200 (including shipping which I thought was pretty hefty) so I went with Yita who had a T19 for around USD $140. Plus shipping, the outfit came to me here in Singapore in just 2 weeks for a total of $200.



It's a better violin than my student / beginner Sandner and a prettier one than the strad copy I purchased from a local shop here.

One thing I didn't like about my Yita is the varnish. I don't have a credible opinion on what's a good antiqued varnish but I knew it wasn't a good thing that my new violin smelled like the cupboard my dad just varnished himself with lacquer.

My locally purchased strad does smell like varnish but it sure does not smell like furniture.

The gloss on my Yita was as shiny as that lacquered cupboard and only after more than 6 months did the strong, heady smell disappeared.

I actually had it customized by Yita before buying; traded the ebony fittings with boxwood.

The hillstyle tail piece's angled edge was jutting out a bit under the chinrest and I decided to put back the ebony chinrest which was wider and would make that angled edge flush with it, and I won't risk poking the side of my neck then. The original ebony chinrest was inclded as I paid extra for the boxwood upgrade.

The boxwood chinrest came off without sticking - but low and behold - there were 2 unsightly bald spots where the feet of the chinrest should land. It was a mixture of cork fragments from the chinrest feet no doubt fused with clotted varnish.

They couldn't perhaps wait until the varnish was fully dried and just hurriedly snapped on the orginal ebony chinrest whose feet, I saw, had broken cork padding - only bits and pieces left on.



The violin sounded nice though. I would have been perfectly happy with it if not for the antique varnish I found quite sloppy and unlike the pictures of the same violin when it was posted on ebay.



But I'm not discouraged and I think we, fiddlers / violin lovers, will always find ourselves craving for a new instrument to try. So my latest purchase is from Old Violin House. A Vecchio Amati which I hope will live up to its on line pictures. :D

slefenfeld - Posted - 06/26/2013:  08:36:29

I brought my ebay fiddle with me to Kaufman Kamp last week.  Fletcher Bright was teaching one of my classes - what a fabulous teacher! - and I gave him the instrument so I could see what it sounds like to the audience.  All in the class agreed it sounded glorious. (Although maybe any strings under Fletcher's fingers would?)  And he seemed to think it was well set-up by the ebay seller.  Following this, I brought the violin to the luthier to install a wittner tailpiece with built-in tuners.  (I had been carrying around the wittner and managing with the single fine tuner on the E string for most of the week.)  This change of tailpieces made an enormous difference to the sound - and NOT a positive one.  I'll be swapping back to the ebony tailpiece this weekend and will look into the PegHeads for this particular fiddle. I have wittners with built-in tuners on three other fiddles, but never had them without them and so have no way of knowing what the impact is...