fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014:  19:12:02

Do the notes in the tune determine your bowing? Or do your bowing choices determine your note choices? Or both?

In my case, both.... and I probably lean to the notes in the tune determining the bowing choices- I choose bowing patterns based on how well they fit the tune.  But different bowing patterns then allow or inspire additional notes.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/06/2014 20:46:37

irfiddler - Posted - 01/07/2014:  01:22:46

I would say both. I tend to fall back on the tried and true. but I definitely have a few favorite bowing patterns. For example - I love the Georgia Shuffle - 3 up and 1 down. So effective in tunes like Arkansas Traveler - on the descending scales in the B part - or Soldiers Joy - so many of the oldtime fiddle tunes can be spiced up with some good old shuffle bowing. And I'll use simple shuffles - in Wabash Cannonball - and you can shuffle your bow around and syncopate to simulate train wheels here and there. More complicated shuffles add so much too. Other than that I don't consciously use pattern bowing too much except in Irish fiddling - jigs for example.  I think there must be definite bowing patterns  - conscious or unconscious - to get that really authentic sound.



For me, tunes evolve over time. And that includes changing the bowing . It's rarely set in stone UNLESS I am jamming with other fiddlers. . Then I will try to play as they are playing if it seems to fit the situation. It just seems good jam etiquette to not disrupt the sound they're going for.



But for most of the music I play these days, I enjoy improvising - changing the notes , the bowing, the rhythm, just about everything about the tune even if it's just a little bit here and there. I don't want to play exactly the same tune the same way over and over and over - it isn't challenging enough - used to be - but not any more.



But...the melody must remain very recognizable. Most of the intermediate and better fiddlers I play with seem to have pretty much the same approach. When we're solo fiddling, we like to experiment.

Edited by - irfiddler on 01/07/2014 01:30:30

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/07/2014:  04:37:56

Really thinking about this I think the sound in my head that wants to be fiddled is one where the bowing and noting are two things that might happen antagonistic to one another...or sometimes, like in Boil Em cabbage down, the notes highly suggest some bowing, yet still, if it's suggested and setup as the main groove, it's fun for the noting and bowing to wrangle around at odds some too.  If that makes any sense-- just saying I think it gets cool when the bowing and noting sorta play tug of war.  Not that I can do that, or even think of a case of somebody doing it, just the sound in my head.  Later, if I can keep my world thawed and have a few minutes, I might see if I can find an example on youtube of somebody who does that.,if in fact it does exist outside of my head!

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/07/2014 04:40:12

carlb - Posted - 01/07/2014:  05:01:26

For me, the notes determine how I bow it. However, sometimes the same notes can be bowed differently and on occasion, I will shift the bowing which puts a different rhythm for a particular phrase. In one specific case, "Magnolia One Step", I could hear the notes being played in the recording, but for the life of me couldn't find them on the fiddle. I cheated, in this case, and went to the Phillip's collection transcriptions. I found that the notes in the beginning of the 3rd part were just what I heard. My problem was that I was trying to start them on an up bow and it turned out that I could only play that phrase starting with a down bow. A good lesson for me.

Pathfinder - Posted - 01/07/2014:  06:16:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

Do the notes in the tune determine your bowing? Or do your bowing choices determine your note choices? Or both?

 

In my case, both.... and I probably lean to the notes in the tune determining the bowing choices- I choose bowing patterns based on how well they fit the tune.  But different bowing patterns then allow or inspire additional notes.

---

I'd say the rhythm affects the bowing options I choose. Also, I think what you prefer affects your choices. If you want to be smooth rather than choppy for example. I was playing Lock Laven Castle the other night and found an option for playing that was more smooth than trying to play each note for a particular section.

tonyelder - Posted - 01/07/2014:  12:02:02

For me -



The notes them self, by them self, don't determine the bowing I use. And I don't use any bowing strategies that would determine the notes I play (as a general rule).



The obvious. A tune is both melody and rhythm. The notes make up the melody, but the rhythm frames how the notes get played.



Some tunes have a rhythmic pattern that is so unique and tune specific - you would probably recognize the tune even if the notes (melody) weren't being played.



But I'm not sure there are any tunes you could recognize by just playing the notes without any regard or respect to the rhythm that belongs to the tune. So the rhythm that belongs to that tune is very important.



Therefore, for me - as best I can - I chose to replicate the rhythmic patterns that I hear in the versions of the tunes I'm trying to learn to play (not any generic patterns).



So, I guess I am working on discovering bowing strategies that will best replicate those rhythmic patterns that are unique to the melodies of the tunes I hear and want to learn - with the main focus on what satisfies the tune itself without regard to any generic pattern.



The issues them becomes - what is the source of your learning material. I use versions of tunes I like the best. And that usually dictates what I hear, and consequently what I attempt to play.









 

Edited by - tonyelder on 01/07/2014 12:05:55

mad baloney - Posted - 01/07/2014:  19:40:28

The phrases decide the bowing, not notes. I kind of cringe at the idea of changing the notes to make it fit some bowing pattern - that's putting the cart before the horse, it's also kind of disrespectful of the tune. 

Then again, I like personal approaches to music - so it's probably alright...  I've found playing some tunes in 'other' keys open up all kinds of bowing opportunities. So yep, it's OK to change the notes.

With one caveat: as long as your doing it to add something (like rhythm) and not just dumbing it down to make a tune simpler because it's too difficult to play, that's when you need to practice that 'rough patch' until it's no longer awkward and difficult, but musical and natural. 

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/08/2014:  00:21:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

The phrases decide the bowing, not notes. I kind of cringe at the idea of changing the notes to make it fit some bowing pattern - that's putting the cart before the horse, it's also kind of disrespectful of the tune. 

Then again, I like personal approaches to music - so it's probably alright...  I've found playing some tunes in 'other' keys open up all kinds of bowing opportunities. So yep, it's OK to change the notes.

With one caveat: as long as your doing it to add something (like rhythm) and not just dumbing it down to make a tune simpler because it's too difficult to play, that's when you need to practice that 'rough patch' until it's no longer awkward and difficult, but musical and natural. 

---

Well, there is something more complex than changing the notes to fit some bowing pattern.

Sometimes, I have several patterns that will fit the core tune, or certain parts of it.

1-2-1-2-1-1   Syncoshuffle

1-1-1-3-1-1   Sawshuffle

1-3-1-1-1-1   Downbeat Georgia + sawstroke

1-2-1-1-2-1  Offset Nashville

All of them start on a single stroke, and if the tune requires that in a certain place, they all fill the bill.  Many of my tunes I've played with several of these being the main lick at different times.  But once in place, each one may suggest different  variations in the melody.

So initially, the tune might determine which pattern gets chosen, but then, having been chosen, the pattern suggests a variation.

Also, I've found that even in Irish Trad, there is no one right or correct version.   I listened to enough Irish Trad over the years, that when I sit down with a notated version, I'm shocked at how much it varies from the versions I've heard before.  Was someone being disrespectful of the tune?  Well, probably not intentionally!  Fairly often some of the variations make the tune easier to play on fiddle, because they don't require a string change.  That's not a bowing pattern, but it is a bowing consideration that can affect the note choice.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/08/2014:  11:29:44

I was trying to contemplate how the bowing would ever determine the notes?

For example if you played a phrase all saw strokes - then changing the bowing, replacing some of the sawstrokes with slurs; why would you need to change the notes?

Maybe I'm missing the concept? Perhaps you could post a notational example of how changing the bowing would determine a different set of the notes?

tonyelder - Posted - 01/08/2014:  12:13:29

This may not be what was meant, but I have heard - what sounded like - notes being dropped from the melody - or the melody being modified a bit so that the rhythm demanded by a bowing pattern wouldn't be compromised. I can see where a fiddler might want to keep their the pattern intact; especially if that helps to keep them from getting turned around with their bowing.

It didn't destroy the tune, but I could hear what I thought sounded different as it was being played. I guess its just one of those preferential choices that gets made sometimes.

abinigia - Posted - 01/08/2014:  12:29:07

Obviously it's the rhythm of the notes that suggests the bowing. Notes are just notes. Bowing is just bowing. The rhythm and duration of notes therein (in other words the tune itself) determines it.

Edited by - abinigia on 01/08/2014 12:30:06

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/08/2014:  12:58:40

A long melody note in some position obviously precludes using a pattern that has multiple short notes there.  But beyond that, I like to think of the melody and bowing as mostly being independent.  The bowing is mostly about putting accents where you want them (and also to facilitate phrasing (in the sense of "stealing" a little time-value from some notes, and giving it to other notes) and the use of rests and staccato notes).

For anyone trying to learn a particular pattern, it is best to initially do that with a tune where the melody doesn't have any influence on the pattern: it's best to pick a tune that is all (or almost all) short notes, with eight notes in each measure ... that way it won't conflict with ANY pattern.  It's also best to try to pick a tune whose melody is all (or mostly all) on only one string ... that way, there will be few if any string crossings that might complicate the original learning process of the pattern.  Pogo has often suggested June Apple, and I agree that's a good one for learning patterns.  (Brian Wicklund also uses that tune as the "test-bed" for the section in his second volume where he introduces "artistic slurs" (as opposed to the "corrective slurs" that are used in the earlier portions of his books).

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 01/08/2014 13:01:44

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/08/2014:  13:30:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

 

A long melody note in some position obviously precludes using a pattern that has multiple short notes there.  But beyond that, I like to think of the melody and bowing as mostly being independent.  

[...]

  It's also best to try to pick a tune whose melody is all (or mostly all) on only one string ... that way, there will be few if any string crossings that might complicate the original learning process of the pattern. 

---

I should add that the second paragraph above IS another case where the melody DOES influence the pattern, because string-crossings are obviously caused by the particular pitches of the melody notes, insofar as how they relate to the pitches of the different strings.  But otherwise, I don't think of the bowing and melody having much connection (other than the fact that one could perhaps think of the melody as influencing the position of accents, and that certainly DOES influence the bowing).

For some fiddlers, string-crossings can preclude some patterns.  For other fiddlers, string-crossings are irrelevant in the choice of bowings.  And some fiddlers actually relish slurring across string changes.

Peghead - Posted - 01/08/2014:  13:33:23

I vary the melody, but would never alter a melody just to make it suit a particular bowing. For me that's genetic engineered test tube tunes! There are always several bowings that sound good, many that are just O.K. and some that are bizarre for that particular tune. The bowing I arrive at is a result of the phrasing of the notes that need to be accented to communicate the tune (as I hear it). Since melodies and tunes are unique, so is each bowing scheme. Bits and pieces of "patterns" emerge all the time, and I am an advocate of practicing patterns, I do them forwards and backwards as a routine but the bowing is a mechanical by-product of the musical process, not the other way around.

Edited by - Peghead on 01/08/2014 13:36:45

Joel Glassman - Posted - 01/08/2014:  15:55:06

Do the notes in the tune determine your bowing? Or do your bowing choices determine your note choices? Or both?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd say the beat of the music determines the bowing choice. More specifically, how much I want to
emphasize the rhythmic aspect. To float above the beat, play slurred notes on one bow or single
notes on a bow with very smooth technique. This can be extended to 2 notes on each bow stroke
with no accenting. Fiddle tunes [ie reels] using 8th notes can be viewed as the following:
1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&
This shows eight 8th notes in a measure. You'd tap your foot on 2 and 4. Orienting the bow
for a down-bow on 2 and 4 accents the beat [especially if the phrasing is more "emphatic"]
One way to do this is to play 1& on an upbow, 2 on a down bow, &3& on an upbow, then
4 on a down bow. Notice all down bows contain only one note. IMO the art in fiddling rhythms
is to do this in a subtle way with flexibility. Its tied in with the ability to improvise rhythmic
accents to fit the tune.

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/08/2014:  17:03:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Glassman

 

[...]

Fiddle tunes [ie reels] using 8th notes can be viewed as the following:

1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&

This shows eight 8th notes in a measure. You'd tap your foot on 2 and 4.

[...]

---

Maybe everyone approaches this differently, but I like to think of most fiddle tunes being in 2/4 time with 16th-notes as the short notes, or (equivalently) in "cut time" (2/2 time) with 8th-notes as the short notes, and with 8 short notes per measure in both cases.  I tap my foot on the 1st and 5th of the eight notes (and I call those "the beat notes").  I call the 3rd and 7th of the eight notes "the off-beats" ... a lot of people call them "the backbeats", but I prefer to think of them as not beats at all, unless the tune is clearly 4/4 with four foot taps per measure ... I like to associate the term "beat" with a place where you tap your foot.

But I DO like to accent a lot of the "off-beats", and also a lot of the "beats" ... I like to mix it up.  In fact, I think the places that the syncoshuffle works well are places where you want to accent the 1st and 7th note in the measure.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/08/2014:  19:10:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

I was trying to contemplate how the bowing would ever determine the notes?

For example if you played a phrase all saw strokes - then changing the bowing, replacing some of the sawstrokes with slurs; why would you need to change the notes?

Maybe I'm missing the concept? Perhaps you could post a notational example of how changing the bowing would determine a different set of the notes?

---

A basic example is the distinction between "hornpipey" and "hoedown" fiddlers.

Hornpipey fiddlers tend to REALLY like sawstroke, and get so good at it that it's easy to add more notes to make a more complex version of the tune than to find a different bowing to match a less notey melody.  They also tend to preserve bow rocking passages in complex tunes like hornpipes.

Really, their approach isn't much different that what a conservative flatpicker like Doc Watson would have done with fiddle tunes.  The effect is somewhat like listening to Bach- streams of very short notes of the same length.

Conversely, the staple pattern of Hoedown fiddlers is Nashville Shuffle, and sometimes you can hear something like Fisher's Hornpipe in archives of field recordings that you could say has been "hoedownified"... the tune has been simplified, and especially melodic bow rocking has been stripped out, and the melody correspondingly simplified.

Another example:  I used to HATE Chinese Breakdown.  Someone, I think one of our Canadians, found an example of an oldtimer from Alabama playing a cool version of Chinese Breakdown that was loaded with "Syncoshuffle".    I think what had happened was that the tune was built around syncopation, and fiddlers who had no syncopated bowing moves in their bag of tricks stripped the syncopation out of it, and in so doing simplified the melody.

Conversely, since I have a syncopated pattern, and I know how to use it, the temptation is there to see how many different places I can use it.

Am I overusing it?  Quite possibly!  But, I'm not objective. so I really don't know for sure.  Actually, most new bowing techniques seem to go through a phase like that for at least a few months to a year, and then it becomes "old hat" and I then I'm more likely to only use it where it really fits.

One of the ways I think this works is that there is something akin to the principle of inertia going on in fiddle bowing.  Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, objects moving tend to stay moving.  And I think there is a bias, once you've got a particular kind of bowing move going, to KEEP it going.  This is because transitions in bowing are the single most likely place to screw up, but with every repeat of a bowing move or pattern, it gets easier, which is a basic principle of practicing.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/08/2014:  20:30:55

Huh????

I think I need to see a specific example - written down on paper is fine - showing how the bowing would alter the notes used.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 01/08/2014 20:40:07

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/10/2014:  20:20:30

Just bowing the melody is an obvious starting point,  but Bluegrass fiddlers often use Nashville Shuffle, Georgia Shuffle or 4 note slurs changing on the backbeat to accentuate the same note that the mandolin player and others are chopping on.

In addition, there is a possibility of using the string changes in a passage with fairly long slurs in kind of a contrapuntal way.

I first noticed Nancy Neithammer doing this on Bull At The Wagon, and I think she got it from Tom Sauber and/or Earl Collins.  I've since seen other fiddlers use it on YouTube videos.  I'd consider it a fairly advanced technique.

Another approach... I've heard fiddlers take a simple song like "Grandfather's Clock" and shuffle it up with Nashville quite a bit.  There's was a version on jaybuckey.com.

I seem to remember reading somewhere in some liner notes or some article or interview somewhere (possibly decades ago) that there was some pressure on square dance fiddlers from the dancers to play requests for the melodies to popular songs.  Nashville Shuffle would have been an obvious way to turn a simple song that wasn't in itself very rhythmic into something you could square dance to.`

Joel Glassman - Posted - 01/10/2014:  20:23:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

Maybe everyone approaches this differently, but I like to think of most fiddle tunes being in 2/4 time with 16th-notes as the short notes, or (equivalently) in "cut time" (2/2 time) with 8th-notes as the short notes, and with 8 short notes per measure in both cases.  I tap my foot on the 1st and 5th of the eight notes (and I call those "the beat notes").  I call the 3rd and 7th of the eight notes "the off-beats" ... a lot of people call them "the backbeats", but I prefer to think of them as not beats at all, unless the tune is clearly 4/4 with four foot taps per measure ... I like to associate the term "beat" with a place where you tap your foot.

---

Sure--I play with a "two feel" also. Its just easier for me to think of the pattern in 4.

Maybe because most notation of fiddle tunes is in 8th notes. 

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/11/2014:  08:27:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

Huh????

I think I need to see a specific example - written down on paper is fine - showing how the bowing would alter the notes used.

---

Paper?  What's that?

I read notation, don't write it much, and don't think of fiddle tunes in terms of notation, and no working scanner or notation program.

The best way I can explain is that I'm a singer and a banjo player (clawhammer) as well as a fiddler.  A tune like Soldier's Joy has a sung melody to the low part, and the banjo part is usually more like the sung part plus clawhammer rhythm notes.  If sixteenth notes were the shortest possible note, a sung melody would be more eighth notes.

A Nashville player could just take the sung melody and add shuffles for an effect kind of like what a bumpditty clawhammer player would do.

If the fiddler uses mostly sawstroke, sixteenth notes are VERY available.  Then it's more appealing to decorate the melody by kind of doing loop-de-loops around those sung notes.   The additional notes would usually be on the non accented notes.

If you have both available, you can mix the two approaches for variety.

Other patterns suggest additional notes in different places... where there are single strokes, 16th notes, where there are slurs, longer notes.

Then, if you have a syncopated pattern (syncoshuffle) you can either preserve any syncopation you hear in a tune and not strip it out, or you could even add it back in.

Also, keep in mind that fiddle tunes are folk tunes, and folk tunes don't have a melody that's as fixed as we tend to think of them what with sheet music and copyright and all.  I've probably heard hundreds of different versions of Soldier's Joy, and when I play the tune, if one of those different versions popped into my head, I would feel the freedom to play it, if I have the bowing to match.   Like with Soldier's Joy, you can find it with the low part sounding all hornpipey with bow rocking, and you can find it with the low part quite simple.  If your bowing wasn't up to hornpipey bow-rocking, you probably wouldn't DO that version.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/11/2014:  13:09:16

You seem to miss what I was asking - about your original question -

I just mentioned writing it - as it gives an easy to visualize specific bowing and notes, rather than just abstract concepts. But say you have a phrase of sixteenth notes | ABAG F#DF#G | ABAB dc#d(d) |



So there are different ways to bow that based on how you want it to sound (don't need to sidetrack about different pattern possibilities here). There are also ways to alter the melody to affect the feel; either choosing different pitches; and/or substituting different duration values (2 sixteenths for an eighth) - those note choices might require then altering the bowing. (your first prop notes determining the bowing)  - None of that was I was asking.

It was about the latter - the bowing determining the notes. If you took above; compare it as starting with one bowing - whatever that is, saw stroke, mix of slurs, or applying some specific bowing pattern.  So you have one way to play it - and then in deciding you need to alter it, driven primarily fit some different directional bowing, slurs or pattern - so I was trying to contemplate how and why that would determine a need for a difference in the notes to use?

Just curious.

Do the notes in the tune determine your bowing? Or do your bowing choices determine your note choices? Or both?

I actually just use a different approach; don't quite think of it as either of the header propositions much.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 01/11/2014 13:12:27

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/11/2014:  14:39:28

BTW... keep in mind that this thread was one of two ideas OTJ had about different possible topics he's like to see besides "interminable bowing threads".  So I obliged him since he doesn't seem to like to start threads.  He might have had something particular in mind, and if he did, I'd like to hear it.

I really gave my best answer in the first post- sometimes a different pattern will suggest or inspire different note choices.  Usually just short decorative notes.  Usually not even conscious, definitely not in the analytical mindset.   Sometimes a different bowing causes different MISTAKES... and hey, if a mistake sounds cool, I'll try to repeat it and reuse it.

Another way of putting this:

A different bowing over much of a tune can get you out of your ruts of thinking about and hearing a tune in a particular way... and once out of the rut, the possibility of new ways of playing it can happen, sometimes even melodically.  Maybe it's because what the left and right hands are doing can get synched so well that they lock you into each other.   Change one, and the other also can become more fluid, more likely to change.

Anyway

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 10/11/2014:  21:01:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

B

A different bowing over much of a tune can get you out of your ruts of thinking about and hearing a tune in a particular way... and once out of the rut, the possibility of new ways of playing it can happen, sometimes even melodically.  Maybe it's because what the left and right hands are doing can get synched so well that they lock you into each other.   Change one, and the other also can become more fluid, more likely to change.

Anyway

---

Yeah.   I mainly agree.  Mainly.  Not entirely.  Mainly.  

fujers - Posted - 10/11/2014:  22:12:33

You opened up a can of worms pogo. What exactly are you asking. Are you asking if you play a certain thing that your bowing changes..Yes it does.

It largely depends on what kind of bowing that you're using

For example. I'll go from single note type stuff to hokum bow and back not hard just have to know your bowing.

Another example. When I go from a long bow..playing pretty stuff..and go into lets say tripplets my bowing has to change you understand. Bowing the instrument constantly changing.

saltcured - Posted - 10/13/2014:  18:28:22

At first it was the string crossings and not the notes that determined it. You all can probably tell I'm self-taught, and nobody around to tell me you could cross to another string with the same bow stroke. Going to a lower string while playing a downbow, or going to a higher string while playing an up bow, used to give me fits. Sooner or later I found out you just can't get some of those licks Kenny plays without it, so I dug right in and beat the thing. Still not as good as it ought to be but getting there with the help of you kind folks here at FHO

fujers - Posted - 10/15/2014:  10:54:02

Saltcured, Play the dern thing any way you want to. I did, Kenny Baker did, Vasser Clements did and a whole host of other fiddlers did. There will come a time where you notice things are just not right. This is where you start to learn.

If got all this stuff under your belt..what are you going to do with it?

You got control of your bow..Good

You play play some notes..Good

Now it's time to really learn

Go get'em