mad baloney - Posted - 12/01/2013:  07:43:47

This came up in another discussion, I thought it might merit it's own place though.

I quickly arranged a cheat-sheet of the keys of C,G,D and A major and all of their related minor scales, dorian and mixolydian modes. I know the "mode: thing can throw, people for a loop. 

Common Scales and Modes

Fidleir - Posted - 12/01/2013:  08:13:24

Thank you!  This is just great - I love it!

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/01/2013:  12:14:58

quote:

Originally posted by mad baloney

 I know the "mode: thing can throw, people for a loop. 

But why..?? It's the most simplest aspect of music theory.

Learn the major scale   C D E F G A B C

Now play the *SAME * notes from......

D TO D   Then play from....

E TO E  you get the sequence...? 

mad baloney - Posted - 12/01/2013:  15:20:21

I don't know why, but I've met many people over the years who either had it explained poorly or incorrectly. Either way they aren't quite clear on it and don't want to ask because so many people tell them they are the simplest aspect of theory.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/01/2013:  15:20:52

quote:

Originally posted by Henry George

quote:

Originally posted by mad baloney

 I know the "mode: thing can throw, people for a loop. 

But why..?? It's the most simplest aspect of music theory.

Learn the major scale   C D E F G A B C

Now play the *SAME * notes from......

D TO D   Then play from....

E TO E  you get the sequence...? 

Well I agree, Henry, it IS simple if you look at it that way, and I most often look at it that way because I basically learned modes from mountain dulcimer- the kind missing some of the frets!  That particular instrument FORCES you look at modes that way.  I also had 3 months of piano instruction, and applied the modes to that in the same way- Aeolian (A minor) uses the same notes as C major (aka Ionian).  So in a sense all the modes are relatives to the major scale in a very similar way to the way that Aeolian is the "relative minor" of the major scaled.

The problem is that it's not necessarily the most useful way on a lot of instruments and in some genres.  For instance, with Old Time fiddle tunes, most modal tunes are in the key of A in that they begin and start on an A note.  But some are in Mixolydian (flat 7th), some are in Dorian (flat 7th and 3rd) and some wander back and forth between the two - IOW the 3rd is sometimes minor and sometimes major. 

And Irish tunes fairly often do the same thing, where perhaps most of the tune parts will be in Mixolydian, one or two will be in Dorian... but the beginning and ending note stays the same, although in Irish trad this happens with more keys than just A modal.

Actually one of the key things that "throw people for a loop" about modes is precisely that there ARE two ways of looking at them.... and they both turn up in discussions of modes, sometimes in the same post- like this one!

Lessee.... you could say that the "relative" way of looking at modes is most useful when you've learned the fingerings for a scale, and you want to maximize the usefulness of those fingerings- the same fingerings apply, you just start and end on a different note, and/or come to rest on different notes.

The interval way is most useful when you want to keep the same tonic note and want to change flavors in relation to the same tonic note, and possibly its fifth, on instruments that have drones, like bagpipes, or styles that use open strings as drones like Old Time fiddle.

haggis - Posted - 12/01/2013:  15:57:53

Is it really the case that E mixolydian considered " uncommon?" The way that I understand modes (imperfectly) is that when playing in the key of A major one would invariably play E mixolydian if the V7 chord is played. It is also quite common when playing E Blues. I was taught also that any incidental dominant chord could take the mixolydian mode. Is it perhaps that it is " uncommon " in a particular genre of music. I can see there is something I am not grasping?

ChickenMan - Posted - 12/01/2013:  16:23:43

Haggis are you talking about jamming or an actual tune in E Mixolydian? Jamming is a whole other beast. Mixolydian is the rock jam staple, and E is a staple key. I say go forth and rock that fiddle.

mad baloney - Posted - 12/01/2013:  17:04:58

Emix is mostly uncommon for fiddle tunes, in the Irish. Scottish and OT genres. In fact, I can only think of one off the top of my head.

Haggis is talking about what jazzers go on about when talking about improvising - they use different modes over each chord change. Fiddle tunes are precomposed pieces of music and what jazzers do doesn't really fit into the idiom (excluding bluegrass, where it could be very helpful to think that way on breaks) OT, Irish, Scottish and even bluegrass tunes generally stay in the mode or scale throughout the tune, or at least the part, regardless of the chord changes. 

Some in Irish circles argue that chords are needed like a fish needs a bicycle and just muddy the waters. I neither agree or disagree, depends on instrumentation and other factors.

echristensen - Posted - 12/01/2013:  17:51:00

Agreed- it is something that should be simple, but it just isn't for a lot of people. I know it took me a long time to master back in my early days of playing and would have loved something like this.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/01/2013:  17:55:30

Handy reference. Thanks for posting.

I have a rectangle of fifths, so to speak, quick reference on my tune list...

tunes.fiddlejammer.com/worksho...Tlist.pdf 

Common chords, scale patterns, and such for the keys typically played in trad music.

Cheers,

Terri

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/01/2013:  19:34:11

Just sit down with a keyboard in front of you, play only the white notes, start at any note and play every note up to the next octave...NO BLACK NOTES...!!!.........................................OK?

You just played a mode in the key of C, which one it was depends on the note you started from.

Now practice that in all other keys......Then practice all the modes beginning on the same note....

Those are the two ways Pogo is talking about...

BTW....folk tunes do change modes, even just for a beat or two....Drowsie Maggie..?

And they change for whole bars........Drunken Sailor........

mad baloney - Posted - 12/02/2013:  17:24:08

I said they *generally* stay in the same mode. but sometimes they change for a part. but mostly tunes stay in a a key or mode - yes some change, but again most stay in one key or mode, occasionally you'll have a few that has a major/minor thing, but most tunes stay in the same key or mode.

FWIW Drowsey Maggie changes for much more than a beat or two it's Edor in the A part and D major in the second. Every setting I've heard of the Drunken Sailor is a straight Gdorian for all four parts, where does it change for a bar? Unless your talking about the popeye the sailor/sponge-bob/"ear-lie in the morning" version and even that stays in dorian throughout. Like most tunes, except for the minority which do change key or mode.

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/02/2013:  18:05:41

Em

What shall we do with the drunken sailor

D

What shall we do with the drunken sailor

Em

What shall we do with the drunken sailor

D..................Em

early in the  Morning.

Over each chord the mode changes......

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/02/2013:  20:09:59

Would that apply if it were...

C

What shall we do with the drunken sailor

G7

What shall we do with the drunken sailor

C                                                           F

What shall we do with the drunken sailor

G7..................C

early in the  Morning.

---

I usually use Amazing Grace for this example of differences; melodically it's just using the CDEGA white notes.

So some mmight be describe in a modern major/minor way, as starting in the first mode of major (Ionian) changes to the fourth mode of the major (Lydian) back to the first mode, then to the fifth mode of the major (Mixolydian).

1. Most of these folks would refer to them as being in the same key; all part of  C major, just different modes of the C major.


2. Some folks call each mode change as "key" changing or modulating with it; so C major, to F Lydian, C major, G Mixolydian.

There is an older way - which describes the whole tune as based on the melody; and generally it's just one "key" and one mode (except for ones that deliberately change key/mode); not defined by"chords". The chords are just applied to the melody, to harmonize the melodic; and options exist (and chord options don't change the key or mode) - So AG is in C Ionian  - refer to the question of "what's this tunes/song in?"  as "it's in C" (major is default); or it's in "G minor"

When it comes to modal tunes (Dorian, Mixolydian...) like Ionian, also see the melody; one key and mode, and that chords don't change those. "it's in E Dorian" - comes with an understanding that a D chord fits in that mode; just as an F chord fits in C major (without changing keys).

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/02/2013:  20:47:13

The chord progressions with I.....IV.....V  are called the primary chords.

Im......bVII    ( or IIm....I ) is called a double tonic chord progression.

Modulation means to change the key by adding sharps or flats to the key signature.

Modes belong to the same key.....

The melody usually determines the harmonies......with exceptions.

Harmonies emphasis the chord tones....thus the relevant  modes accompany the chords.......

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/02/2013:  22:56:59

Like I said - different ways of thinking about "modes". That is the major/minor tonal harmony of western art music.

In many folk music, it isn't always about chords and tonal harmony and some of which goes back to more of a modal idea (before that modern tonal harmony).  The melody doesn't as much or as specifically determine the harmony, and thus the what and when of chord changes.

It's not so much about which is right or wrong, just different. Sometimes the difference in ways of thinking lead to the essentially no significant difference in results; but sometimes leads to much different results. For example, the Ionian AG (and similar tunes), the melody doesn't really specify neither the harmony nor an F (IV) chord. Nor a G chord in the final cadence. Dorian, and especially Mixolydian tunes, it's can be even more noticed difference.

as mad baloney pointed out

Some in Irish circles argue that chords are needed like a fish needs a bicycle and just muddy the waters. I neither agree or disagree, depends on instrumentation and other factors.

Some of that comes from not that there is a back-up instrument; but in how it's used, to which tonal harmony folks (following their training, rules) sometimes mis-interpret, over interpret... or something that really changes the overall feel of the music. Happens in some OT as well.

haggis - Posted - 12/03/2013:  09:07:51

Am I correct in that (e.g) a tune in G Mixolydian has exactly the same notes as a C Major scale and that tune will contain the note F . If so, why not say the tune is in the key of C Major? Whether fiddlers play it or not there is are underlying harmony chords which change when F# ( G Major) changes to F( G Mixolydian.) What is it that I am not grasping here? Help me out .

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/03/2013:  13:04:08

quote:

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 The melody doesn't as much or as specifically determine the harmony, and thus the what and when of chord changes.

 I know what you mean, I have heard jazzy chord progressions over Irish Trad music......and it sounds great.

But what you gonna play over  B E G B.....A D F$ A......B A G F$ E

I got melody instruments to play harmonized notes and chord instrument to strum rhythmic chords.

Name some chords and scales to play with the above notes.................. 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/03/2013:  13:39:54

The key, the way many folks refer to it, is the central pitch; the other pitches then relate to - the most important pitch in a tune,  the feel of the home - to which it will resolved. What directs us to that is how the notes are used.

The mode indicates what notes, but not just the collection of notes, also indicates how other notes relate to it's central pitch, where the emphasis is, how the the notes are used, the role they play. Which give each mode it's unique flavor. More than just a collection of notes, or steps. (There is also the aspect that C major and G mix aren't based on using the same exact intonation; but that's probably more complex to discuss)

Whether fiddlers play it or not there is are underlying harmony chords which change when F# ( G Major) changes to F( G Mixolydian.)

Fiddlers not play?? What are you saying, this is FHO. - I'm not sure I'm grasping what you are saying, but as I mentioned above, you are perhaps basing it on major/minor tonal harmony, chord structure, rather than melodic structure. In the melodic structure, the fiddler (or some melody) has to play, chords are not even required, and there is often not one.

amwildman - Posted - 12/03/2013:  14:15:17

quote:

Originally posted by haggis

Am I correct in that (e.g) a tune in G Mixolydian has exactly the same notes as a C Major scale and that tune will contain the note F . If so, why not say the tune is in the key of C Major? Whether fiddlers play it or not there is are underlying harmony chords which change when F# ( G Major) changes to F( G Mixolydian.) What is it that I am not grasping here? Help me out .

Because the tune revolves around G, not C.  The tune is based around a different progression and structure from C.  Without knowing all the nuts and bolts of theory, when it comes to a tune structure, there has to some sort of tension and resolution.  Sort of a call and a response.  Most of this tension revolves around the IV chord.   Gmixy and C major scales will have completely different tension-creating tools.  The way that tension is created is by the notes you play, and thus different fingering patterns come into play.

In its simplest form, one could say that a Mixylodian tune FEELS completely different from the counterpart Major tune, and that is why it should be labeled differently.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/03/2013:  14:16:58

 I know what you mean, I have heard jazzy chord progressions over Irish Trad music......and it sounds great.

It can sound great, I myself often enjoy them those takes - but that what makes it jazz rather than TRAD (which I also enjoy.

But what you gonna play over  B E G B.....A D F$ A......B A G F$ E

I got melody instruments to play harmonized notes and chord instrument to strum rhythmic chords.

Name some chords and scales to play with the above notes.................. 

My instruments lack an F$ - (that must be note where all the money is on) - But if I'm interpreting the context, since those are chord arpeggios, quite clearly laid out for you, a great choice would be E minor and D major. Melodies tend to be more linear; and require a bit more context than one measure.

mad baloney - Posted - 12/03/2013:  16:28:30

Here's a brainbuster... The uilleann pipes back themselves up with their regulators which don't have a E note. So when they harmonize a tune in A dorian they often use a F#A or DA double stop to harmonize a seemingly A minor passage and a GB  to harmonize obvious G passages as well as E minor passages.. Therefore turning an A dorian tune into a D mixolydian. Which makes perfect sense over a D drone anyway.

There aren't really 'correct' chords, a major melody can be harmonized with all relative minors and vice versa. 

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/03/2013:  18:01:29

quote:

  ( B ...E G B )  (A ....D F$ A )  (B .....C$ D E  ) ( D B A F$ E.....) 

This is the melody over 4 measures.

I have a group of people who want to play this melody together, all instruments included.

We want the chord instruments to play rhythms, ( they can only strum chords ) what chords do we play in each bar?

We want people to take improvised solo breaks, which scales do we use in each bar?

We want instruments to harmonize the above melody, how do we choose the notes to play for each bar ( including passing notes ) ? 

Try to be relevant and concise in your reply.. 

haggis - Posted - 12/04/2013:  06:42:56

Alaskafiddler, with respect, you make my point, many fiddlers , while playing melody beautifully ( which I do not) have a remarkable grasp of the linear aspect of a tune. However , as I have said ( quite clumsily)in an earlier post there is , as you know, a vertical element to a tune, the harmony. The fiddle being ,in the main, a melody instrument ,as you say, means that many fiddlers ( but not all) have little interest in or knowledge of harmony. Pianists and guitarists for example can plays both harmony and melody and I do not think many of them consider complete tunes as being either Mixolydian or Dorian etc. etc. These musicians have a key signature , they know their harmonized scales and modes. If they stay within the key, as the chords change so the modes will change ( a Dminor chord in the key of C will automatically take a Dorian mode but you do not have to "start on D and end onD" you are simply playing in Cmajor ) When the harmony goes "outside" the key so modes really come into their own. For example non diatonic Dominant harmony/chords can take Mixolydian or non diatonic Major harmony/chords can take Lydian etc. etc.
By the way I am not pitting these instrumente against the fiddle. I absolutely love my fiddle.if only I could play it!
Only 4 years into my fiddling, I know I got a head start in this with a previous knowledge of harmony and modes. I am sure you agree, however it is understood, a knowledge of harmony and modes would be of great advantage to all.
,

DougD - Posted - 12/04/2013:  07:00:20

Piano is my first instrument, been playing for about 60 years I guess. Then guitar for about 50. I'm well enough trained to play professionally with other musicians and be able to communicate without trouble, and not just folk music. But I don't think in modes at all. I know the hip jazzers do, and some rockers, but it wasn't part of my classical theory training. I mention this only to show that not all pianists and guitarists think of tunes in the way you describe.

BTW, a Dmin chord in the key of C will not "automatically take a Dorian mode." The Dorian mode is not the same as "minor" because of the raised sixth.

DougD - Posted - 12/04/2013:  07:31:33

I'm not sure where to post this, since there are three threads running on pretty much this topic, but here goes:

The use of the white keys on a piano to illustrate the modes is common and a useful way to see the whole and half steps, since each whole step has a black key conveniently in the middle of it, but its not always the handiest way to figure out the notes you might want on a fiddle in, say, the key of A or E for a particular mode. You can figure it out of course, but I use a little trick to remember the most common key signatures - the ones you might actually need, based on the major keys.

This works easily because many fiddle tunes are in the sharp keys, but it works for all the keys. Take the key of A:

1. A major has three sharps F#, C#, and G#  (added in the order of the circle of fifths BTW)

2. To find A Mixolydian, just "drop" the last sharp added, i.e. G#, and play G natural instead. The key signature is the same as D major. The sharp "added" as each key is formed is always the seventh degree of the scale.

3. For A Dorian just "drop" one more sharp (C#) and play C natural. The scale has only F#, same as G major.

3. If you "drop" all the sharps you get Aeolian, same as C major scale, but you already knew that.

This works for any key. For example, E major has four sharps, E Mixolydian has three, E Dorian has two (same as D major). As it happens the key signature for a Dorian key will be the same as the flat 7, or "double tonic" chord you'd use  i.e.  E to D, A to G, G to F.

If you "run out" of sharps to drop, you have to add a flat, (enharmonically speaking I guess). For example if you drop the F# from G major you get G Mixolydian, (no sharps or flats) but to get G Dorian you have to flat the third, Bb,- the same key signature as F major and head around the circle of fifths in that direction, but that doesn't happen very often in practice.

PS - You can see all this in the chart Brad posted, BTW. Its just an easy way to remember it on the fly.

Edited by - DougD on 12/04/2013 07:38:59

DougD - Posted - 12/04/2013:  08:26:57

BTW, since Brad posted a good chart of the circle of fifths in another thread, you can see the same thing as above with a little counterclockwise trip around that mystic circle. Find the key of A major. Moving one step counterclockwise gives the key signature for A Mixolydian, two steps gives Dorian, and three is Aeolian. Always still starting the scale on A of course. This works fine, but my circle of fifths chart is in my head.

Also, IMHO if you're playing traditional music you might as well forget about modal concepts in jazz improvisation - it just obscures the issue. Unless of course you want to play improvised jazz or obscure the issue - or possibly were trained in a different system than I was.

Edited by - DougD on 12/04/2013 08:32:56

haggis - Posted - 12/04/2013:  13:58:36

DougD.I would call Dorian a minor mode because of the b3rd just as the Harmonic,Melodic and Natural minor all have the characteristic b3rd.Staying within the Key of C which of its modes does a Dminor chord take? I ask as a confused seeker after knowledge?

DougD - Posted - 12/05/2013:  04:36:05

Haggis - I just reread your post, and you're right - if you "stay within the key" and continue "playing in C major" a "D minor chord in the key of C will automatically take a Dorian mode." I said the same thing in my next to last post in this thread:  fiddlehangout.com/topic/35477/3/#402596  This is the same reason why the dominant seventh chord will have an F natural instead of F# - I guess you could say its in the Mixolydian mode, but I don't think that way because as you say its "automatic" if you stay within the key of the tonic.

I had forgotten you said "stay within the key" and thought you meant any Dmin chord in the key of C would automatically imply Dorian mode, which it might or might not depending on what the melody is doing. Frequently that sixth tone, B, isn't being used there and you can't really tell if its "minor" or Dorian anyway.

boxbow - Posted - 12/05/2013:  19:53:48

Dang, I was slogging through all this, and I lost my footing.  But I'm trainable!

DougD - Posted - 12/06/2013:  07:09:46

boxbow, if you've slogged through this far, maybe this will help.  (Using the key of A as an example)

To play in a mode, relative to the major key:

1. For Mixolydian, lower the seventh note of the scale by a half step. (use G natural instead of G#). This gives the basic "modal" sound.

2. For Dorian, additionally lower the third of the scale a half step. (C natural instead of C#) This gives the "minor" modal sound.

3. For Aeolian additionally lower the sixth scale degree a half step. (F natural instead of F#) This creates the natural minor scale.

Of course these rules can also be used to look at the notes in a tune you're already playing to determine what mode its in.

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/06/2013:  15:19:33

If you know all your keys...try it this way also.....

Beginning with the same note of A for each mode, play the following modes in the keys indicated.....

1. Ionian....A major

2. Dorian...G major

3. Phrygian...F major

4. Lydian....E major

5. Mixolydian....D major

6. Aeolian.....C major.

7. Locrian...Bb major..

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/06/2013:  20:17:01

 ( B ...E G B )  (A ....D F$ A )  (B .....C$ D E  ) ( D B A F$ E.....)

This is the melody over 4 measures.

I have a group of people who want to play this melody together, all instruments included.

We want the chord instruments to play rhythms, ( they can only strum chords ) what chords do we play in each bar?

We want people to take improvised solo breaks, which scales do we use in each bar?

We want instruments to harmonize the above melody, how do we choose the notes to play for each bar ( including passing notes ) ?

Try to be relevant and concise in your reply..

I'm not sure what you are getting at - perhaps some "ah-ha" proof? But perhaps you might have misunderstood, misinterpreted. I was pointing out that there are different ways to think about it, and that people use some of the terminology in different ways than what you and haggis use of shifting modes/scales.. That I can come up with Em and D chords in this example, using different way of viewing it than yours - illustrates that either work, and might not lead to different results.

What madbaloney presented and many people refer to is in line with (what I've always considered) the standard conventional textbook explanation of diatonic and/or major/minor; and extended same principle applied to Dorian, Mixolydian modes. -  tunes/songs as being in one key and mode; to communicate the essence (flavor) of the tune. The basic concept of what folks mean when they say a TUNE is in E Dorian; or A Mixolydian; or D major. Simply refer to these changes you hear  as "chord" changes (not scale/mode changes) that fit within the context of the mode - At least the overwhelming musicians I've played with; and the teaching and writings in discussing music and involved with music theory, and harmonic functions. I grasp what you're saying; I suppose it makes sense in some way, but found the conventional terminology seems to work just fine for myself and most folks, just more widely understood.

Not sure of maybe you are aware of that conventional, and stating it's not possible, or it's problematic to figure out chords, harmonies, improvise, composition? Or possibly misinterpreted an impose some artificial rules involved? Or are sincerely at a loss for how it works and  people can figure what chords harmonies, or notes to use to improvise, compose, - using this other non-shifting mode approach? Or maybe somehow it's wrong? Or just oblivious that it much exists (never heard it before FHO)?

Again, that  I, and all these others can come up with your Em and D maj chords in your example, generally figure out chords for most tunes, as well as can figure out chords, harmonies, improvisation breaks, and even compose, on that tune and most others; in almost every genre and instrument, - using the conventional; illustrates it's existence (for hundreds of years) that it is possible, not particularly problematic.

As to how it works, it's no doubt a little more involved than just a collection of notes in a scale, that's just the start; it does come with some built in harmonic relationships in how notes interact with each other, creating various consonant and dissonant, various unresolved and importantly sense of resolved - all within the context of one mode that unites it as one. Built into this is that the harmonic relation can shift away from the root triad (creating the above), that still fit within the scale and harmonic world of the overall mode. And then chords can be used to reinforce, strengthen that  - but still fit within the context of the key/mode. But chords are not necessary to define the mode, not what defines the mode. A VII chord is not necessary to for a tune to be defined as Dorian. But because of the nature of how Dorian tunes are composed, they typically will fit rather well.  Just like folks would consider an F chord as being natural part of key/mode of C major (or that it hasn't left C major). I'm not saying that you can't think of that F chord as you left C major, now modulated to F Lydian; just that it's not really a common way folks think about it; nor would most folks IMO grasp what that means (or even how to do a Lydian scale). And as you learn more about it, you find that anchor, weighted notes don't have to be part of a chord triad, and that in many phrases, the triad is not defined, while notes used and tune mode used might suggest chords, offers various choice in harmonic support and directional flow.

You want concise though -  a good understanding of how this all works can't be these things can't be well explained with sound bytes, in just a paragraph or two; or in a 15 minute lesson - nor with just one tune. It's why they write books that are more than one page, offer classes that are require much more time.  Might start with basic diatonic major/minor books. And listening to lot's of different examples of what folks are actually playing.

As far as the scenario you propositioned - I'm having a hard time envisioning it - is this a jam? A lot of factors involving what they already know, their skill, their goal, and account for the genre, setting and stylistic elements would play a role. But essentially, the strummers I would tell them the chord names, and when exactly to change. If they weren't much aware of harmonic relationships going on in modes, I'm not envisioning telling the solo folks to simply play a E Dorian scale, and then a D major scale would help them much.

BTW - no doubt any place a strong E/G/B occurs would indicate a an E minor chord is a good choice; as does a strong D/F#/A  point to a D major chord as a good choice - regardless of the key or mode. The last 2 measures you added - illustrates that options exist when used in tunes like this. A few examples.

1.  A very common one would be to stay on the E minor on the the first beat of 4th measure, D on the second beat.


2. Stay on E minor for the entire 4th measure.


3. play a G chord on the first beat of 4th measure, followed by D on second beat.


4. A little more twisty, but not uncommon is to play a G chord over the 3rd measure, D over 4th.


5. For a more twist the 3rd measure goes from Em to an A, then G to D for 4th.  -


6. many other options exist that I might employ over all the measures, like to be less major/minor chord oriented, and having moving alterations over an E/B dyad set. There are aspect to Dorian that make that not only all fit, and work but work to keep it united with the Dorian.

Sorry that this was not as concise as you probably wished. Again if only it was as simple as looking at paragraph and that worked to clarify for everyone knowing what to play.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 12/06/2013 20:22:45

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/06/2013:  22:43:29

quote:

Originally posted by haggis

Alaskafiddler, with respect, you make my point, many fiddlers , while playing melody beautifully ( which I do not) have a remarkable grasp of the linear aspect of a tune. However , as I have said ( quite clumsily)in an earlier post there is , as you know, a vertical element to a tune, the harmony. The fiddle being ,in the main, a melody instrument ,as you say, means that many fiddlers ( but not all) have little interest in or knowledge of harmony.

Don't understand what I said and why I make your point - at all.

But, with respect, I think you make some assumptions that I find not true.

Frankly you seem to be portraying this patronizing or condescending image of airhead fiddlers that just play notes, because those are the notes you are supposed to play - without any concept or care (that's just how it goes). Not sure of the fiddlers you know, what they know and how they approach it, maybe the are the simpletons as you portray.  Most of the folks I see/hear playing melody would agree that, knowledge of harmonic structure, and the mode of the tune is pretty darn useful, and indeed most have very good understanding of the relevant harmonic structure they need in a tune  - often way more than the just chord player - they often understand in a more complex way; both the linear harmonic structure, but as well as it works with the vertical; it's that understanding that guides them as to what to play; that make it more than just playing just the instructions of some sequence of notes (in a scale). Give meaning to the notes. And the notes need to make sense to them to play it. With that allows them to improvise certain aspects. Knowing the mode of the tune is part of that, but more than just what notes are in a scale. That is, while you might think E Dorian or F major is just the scale notes but not anything else, it does indeed tell these melody players more.

These folks I know generally acquire two types of knowledge - one is built intuitive from direct experience - listening to lot's of that type of music; lot's; as well as then playing it. They know what sounds right; what will sound right. Many of them also have picked up on some of the more "on paper" concepts that explain some of what is going on, directly relative to experience; as well as the conventional terminology to discuss concepts. Most have at least all what they need relevant to play the type of music they do, and can do things like determine and call out basic chords. Might surprise you that some of these folkie lowly fiddlers (and even CH banjo players) even have more, and actually studied, read books and such; more than what you might think. (and some have a better understanding than your average orchestra player)

Of, course,  you might be surprised but the vast majority of fiddlers I know also play a chorded instrument, like guitar, piano, banjo, mandolin. In OT and BG I can't hardly think of any that don't.

Pianists and guitarists for example can plays both harmony and melody and I do not think many of them consider complete tunes as being either Mixolydian or Dorian etc. etc. These musicians have a key signature , they know their harmonized scales and modes. If they stay within the key, as the chords change so the modes will change ( a Dminor chord in the key of C will automatically take a Dorian mode but you do not have to "start on D and end onD" you are simply playing in Cmajor ) When the harmony goes "outside" the key so modes really come into their own. For example non diatonic Dominant harmony/chords can take Mixolydian or non diatonic Major harmony/chords can take Lydian etc. etc.

Again, this has not been my experience. All the guitar, piano and other chord oriented players I know; many of which have a great knowledge of working out chords, variations and such - consider complete tunes in one key mode (unless it specifically modulates) and do not think in terms of varying modes as you describe.They generally regard that piece of information as one of the most important - as in it's in C major; or it's in A minor. With that piece of information, it guides them to likely candidates from a family of other chords within that key and mode. They do not communicate in terms of a Lydian chord; evidence is that I doubt that but a few would be able to snap off a Lydian scale let alone a Phrygian or Locrian; or why anyone would be telling them to.

Just because these folks don't think in terms like you, of the chord change makes a mode changes; doesn't mean they don't understand the relevant harmonic structures. They do seem have a pretty good knowledge of conventional textbook diatonic harmony, (and even things like the ascending V7 cycle) - evident in that's the way they discuss and communicate. Not sure if I ever heard any of these folks express anything in the way you do. But if that works for you - as opposed to the conventional, probably no reason to change.

Larry Rutledge - Posted - 12/07/2013:  00:31:52

Thanks to everyone, This thread has been a real help to me.

boxbow - Posted - 12/07/2013:  07:06:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

boxbow, if you've slogged through this far, maybe this will help.  (Using the key of A as an example)

To play in a mode, relative to the major key:

1. For Mixolydian, lower the seventh note of the scale by a half step. (use G natural instead of G#). This gives the basic "modal" sound.

2. For Dorian, additionally lower the third of the scale a half step. (C natural instead of C#) This gives the "minor" modal sound.

3. For Aeolian additionally lower the sixth scale degree a half step. (F natural instead of F#) This creates the natural minor scale.

Of course these rules can also be used to look at the notes in a tune you're already playing to determine what mode its in.

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I'm thinking that there are two approaches to this, at least.  One is an intellectual approach that includes building a model in your head or on paper.  The other is imposing some continuity on where the half vs. whole step intervals lie by ear while actually playing the tune.  When discussing modes with other players, the first is the thing, and I'm actually OK there for most such discussions I've had.  Since I'm always looking for a better model, I'm slogging through all these posts and finding that many of them approach the issue from an angle for which I lack referents, like the guitar chords and the circle of fifths. You never know what will stick, so I keep reading. That circle of fifths stuff makes sense on paper because I can count, but I don't hear it.  I'm still working on that.  When actually playing the tune, I'm better off just going with the ear approach, sticking to the notes and intervals that fit subjectively as judged by my ear.  In the practice room I swap back and forth between the two.

DougD - Posted - 12/07/2013:  08:14:16

I just play tunes the way I've learned them. I don't really think about it, but if I have to I can describe the scales and modes. I don't think I'm usually even thinking about what notes I'm playing (unless I'm reading), but again, I know what they are if I think about it. I don't know why I get sucked into these discussions! In this case I've been at the computer a lot lately figuring out a way to get a bunch of recordings to the Library of Congress, and sometimes I needed a break.

Edited by - DougD on 12/07/2013 08:15:13

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/24/2013:  06:32:08

The modes in a nutshell

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/24/2013:  12:41:02

modes in a nut shell

Modes

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 12/24/2013:  13:52:47

I found this nice website about modes... Check it out:
brebru.com/musicroom/theory/in...odes.html

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/24/2013:  16:31:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 

The modes in a nutshell

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  Yes...this is presicely what I was getting at..a little more ''ah-ha proof''...concise and too the point, not beating around the bush with long wordy posts that need to be re-read, and re-read, and still the point does'nt come across.

mad baloney - Posted - 12/24/2013:  21:55:18

Hey I just started the whole thing off with a nutshell post. No need to know Bb locrian... you need that like a blue sky hook 

here's a fiddle and here's the Major Minor Dorian & Mix modes in 0 - 4 sharps

Ever feel like you're going in circles?

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/25/2013:  05:25:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

Ever feel like you're going in circles?

 

Around and around we go....

I know the theory..backwards!

I am just trying to decipher those long winded posts which seem to have NO point to them. It says in them that there is another way of looking at ''it''.....But what 'that is' is never made clear. I mean you dont have to write a thesis about it, it can be said in a ''NUTSHELL''.............

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 12/25/2013:  05:39:15

The erudite posts that have shown up in the past week about Modes and Theory have my head spinning.. The posters appear to truly know what they are talking about and each seems to say it is 'simple'... Well, it may be to them, but to someone like me to whom this is all new it is very confusing...When the basics of theory and modes are explained and then chord theory is thrown in the complexities of the conversation go beyond what a beginner like me can handle.. I'm determined to make a "Theory for Dummies'" study, but I will definitely focus on something that is in a NUTSHELL.. I have been INSPIRED by all of your posts. Thank you and Happy Holidays.. LEE

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/25/2013:  05:39:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by mad baloney

 

Hey I just started the whole thing off with a nutshell post. No need to know Bb locrian... you need that like a blue sky hook 

here's a fiddle and here's the Major Minor Dorian & Mix modes in 0 - 4 sharps

 

Ever feel like you're going in circles?

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mad baloney from your homepage I see you focus on Irish music, your point is well taken.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/25/2013:  06:08:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

The erudite posts that have shown up in the past week about Modes and Theory have my head spinning.. The posters appear to truly know what they are talking about and each seems to say it is 'simple'... Well, it may be to them, but to someone like me to whom this is all new it is very confusing...When the basics of theory and modes are explained and then chord theory is thrown in the complexities of the conversation go beyond what a beginner like me can handle.. I'm determined to make a "Theory for Dummies'" study, but I will definitely focus on something that is in a NUTSHELL.. I have been INSPIRED by all of your posts. Thank you and Happy Holidays.. LEE

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In the modes pdf  just start in the green column in any key and start playing the notes left to right and your ears should tell you what's going on.

I had to use flats for pitch names be cause their is no such key as D# G# etc. in modern music.

p.s. always an exception F#

regards

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 12/25/2013 06:14:15

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 12/25/2013:  06:47:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

The erudite posts that have shown up in the past week about Modes and Theory have my head spinning.. The posters appear to truly know what they are talking about and each seems to say it is 'simple'... Well, it may be to them, but to someone like me to whom this is all new it is very confusing...When the basics of theory and modes are explained and then chord theory is thrown in the complexities of the conversation go beyond what a beginner like me can handle.. I'm determined to make a "Theory for Dummies'" study, but I will definitely focus on something that is in a NUTSHELL.. I have been INSPIRED by all of your posts. Thank you and Happy Holidays.. LEE

---

In the modes pdf  just start in the green column in any key and start playing the notes left to right and your ears should tell you what's going on.

I had to use flats for pitch names be cause their is no such key as D# G# etc. in modern music.

p.s. always an exception F#

regards

---

Thank you.. Yours and Mad Baloneys charts both make sense.. Now, I want this to sink in.... It is the comments thrown in about chords that are throwing me off at this time... I play the fiddle and not the guitar, so chords are not things that generally  I think about when I'm playing fiddle tunes.( although I play many)... Music instruction IMO should be student specific and in this Thread discussion a lot of the info given is  instructor to instructor...As a beginner I finding myself having to weed out what is relevant to me at my skill level..I'm getting there slowly and have decided that a simple book would keep the focus on a progressive method of presenting the information..

My morning coffee has kicked in and it seems that I can't shut up........Ok.. Thanks again.. talk later.  LEE

DougD - Posted - 12/25/2013:  08:09:50

mmuussiiccaall - I understood what you were trying to say with your chart, but I thought without an explanation like you've given above it would be virtually useless for someone who didn't already understand the subject. Still, it really butchers many of the keys. Just as one example, the D major scale is D,E,F#,G,A,B,C# - there is no Gb or Db. Those are enharmonic equivalents, but it just confuses the issue. Strictly speaking, a scale can include only one of each letter name - it can't have both a G and a Gb, a D and a Db, or an E and an Eb. Also, although G# is usually written as Ab, there definitely is such a key:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-sharp_major

Lee, I think some contributors to this thread are coming from a quite different style of music than you and I, and have a different way of thinking about it and language to describe it. For our purposes, Brad's chart is fine, and actually maybe includes too much. For traditional American fiddle tunes, in addition to the major and relative minors in the common keys, if you know A, G and D Mixolydian, and A and E (and maybe D) Dorian you'll be fine. All you really need to remember is that compared to the major scale the Mixolydian mode flats the seventh degree, and the Dorian additionally flats the third.

Edited by - DougD on 12/25/2013 08:20:39

cody presley - Posted - 12/25/2013:  10:41:43

A lot of this music language i am still learning. And the scales i am just getting started in.  Am I understanding this right, the piano scale is the same. If I remember right the  chord on the piano strings let's say A would be A,C,E. Or do I got both instruments messed up??