mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/25/2013:  20:08:54

I like your chart except your use of the 5 Major in the Mixolydian columns. As an example the G chord in the key of C Mixolydian has a B natural in it which is outside of that mode C D E F G A Bb C.

regards

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/25/2013:  21:05:31

I'll have to think on that. I'm not near my circle chart or piano at the moment. Seems those chords worked when I was drafting it up. Any suggestions?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/25/2013:  21:33:01

quote:

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Originally posted by Henry George

 

I am just trying to decipher those long winded posts which seem to have NO point to them. It says in them that there is another way of looking at ''it''.....But what 'that is' is never made clear. I mean you dont have to write a thesis about it, it can be said in a ''NUTSHELL''.............

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The other way of looking at it - well starts with the simplest of two concepts.

What "key" is it in? This is the identifying which pitch to best describes what the tune is based on; revolves around and resolves to. By stating it's in E (what ever mode), is reflecting that E is the most important pitch. Has nothing to do with how many sharps of flats involved (no need to count or add for this part).

Then the mode - what simply describes the other notes relationship used in the tune to that key pitch (no matter what key). That describes what flavor. Can be thought of, or described in two ways;

1. As a linear sequential scale of whole and half steps - like in staring and ending on the key pitch. Dorian always being whwwwhw.


2. As harmonic relationships and weight to the key pitch; like how each mode differs in it's use/mix of third/sixths/sevenths (or others). For example, Mixolydian, is much like major, but differs in how shifts and utilizes the flat/minor seventh as what's giving it that mode flavor.

Brad's cheatsheet IMO is pretty useful as it simply reflects that tune description.

I think that is a fairly simple and clear concept. IMO, this is the simplest, easiest way to look at it; and understand; and the most common way folks directly describe a tune; and the essence of what they need to know. It's rather irrelevant that it mathematically shares the same number of sharps/flats, same notes with another key/scale; as well as what chords are opted.

To which I would explain "Drunken Sailor" as in E Dorian; or that "Old Joe Clark" as in A Mixolydian - period.

My apologies for not clarifying that from the get go, I guess I assumed a fiddler, with tune experience and a little study of theory would have come across before.

DougD - Posted - 12/25/2013:  21:39:47

Terri's chart is correct for the styles of music she's indicated. The 5 chord is often used in a final cadence in a Mixolydian tune, just as in a major mode. For example, in the key of A an E chord might be used against either a G natural or G# in the melody, even if a G major chord is used other places in the tune. An example would be "Kitchen Girl." In old time and Bluegrass music major chords are sometimes used where you might expect a minor chord (an E minor chord would be in the mode in this case). "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" is one famous example: youtube.com/watch?v=z_Y3mnj-8lA

Edited by - DougD on 12/25/2013 21:43:11

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/25/2013:  22:02:40

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

 

I like your chart except your use of the 5 Major in the Mixolydian columns. As an example the G chord in the key of C Mixolydian has a B natural in it which is outside of that mode C D E F G A Bb C.

regards

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The use of a V is quite common in traditional Mixolydian tunes. Works quite fine. There are some logical explanations, but as it's a little more complex,  don't want to get accused of something; so just say - make the theory/rules match the music, not the other way around.

BTW - I noticed the Dorian - what I would give as the most common chords are different - for example in E Dorian - Em - D - A - G - hardly ever see a Vm (Bm); but sometimes like Mix a V.

Similarly  Aeolian often use similar 7 and 3 chords - and might include the 6 major - a C major in E Aeolian.

edit - didn't see Doug's post when I posted mine - but those are good examples.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 12/25/2013 22:10:20

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/26/2013:  02:55:59

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

My apologies for not clarifying that from the get go, I guess I assumed a fiddler, with tune experience and a little study of theory would have come across before.

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Apology accepted. I know my theory very well. Just trying to understand your concept. And I deduce that it is the ear process of the mode you are trying to explain. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/26/2013:  05:48:54

You can talk all day about which chords are the most commonly used besides the key chord but the theory of it is this.

The modal chords are derived from every other note of the mode you’re in.

For simplicity’s sake let’s take the G mixolydian mode which uses only naturals G A B C D E F which gives:

 GBD=G ACE=Am BDF=Bmb5 CEG=C DFA=Dm EGB=Em FAC= F 

So that’s: 

G Am Bmb5 C Dm Em F (notice the 5m Dm I mentioned in earlier thread) 

For those who want to take it to the extreme here are the 29 chords that don’t go higher than the 9th degree of the scale that fit G Mixolydian. These could be double checked on a piano because they all use white keys only.

C F G CM7 FM7 G7 Dm Em Am Csus Dsus Esus Gsus Dm6 C+9 F+9 G+9 G9 CM9 FM9 C6/9 F6/9 C6 F6 G6 Dm7 Em7 Am7 Dm+9

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 12/26/2013 05:49:47

DougD - Posted - 12/26/2013:  06:04:51

mmuussiiccaall - I was just thinking earlier this morning that I forgot to mention that Terri's chart is meant to be a practical guide for players encountering tunes in jams, not a treatise on theory, which I realized was how you were interpreting it. This is  perfect example of the difference between music theory and actual music and why theory may or may not be helpful. In the situation Terri's chart is designed for it will get you a lot farther than your list.

The title of this thread is "Cheatsheet for common scales and modes," not "A Treatise on Music theory as it applies to modes." Terri's chart (which I actually find a little confusing, and wouldn't use) fits in with that theme.

Edited by - DougD on 12/26/2013 06:18:44

DougD - Posted - 12/26/2013:  09:16:40

BTW, the triad built on the third degree of the G Mixolydian scale (or the seventh degree of the C major scale) is B diminished. Why not just call it that?

Edited by - DougD on 12/26/2013 09:17:02

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/26/2013:  09:46:10

Hey DougD I would agree with the term diminished triad 1 b3 b5 but not just calling it a diminished chord because that usually implies a diminished seventh chord 1 b3 b5 bb7. Anyway I used that mb5 name for ease of understanding for those new to chords (no one in my 50 years of playing music ever said to play a diminished triad but rarely yes to a mb5). regards

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/26/2013:  14:51:55

quote:

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Originally posted by Henry George

 

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

My apologies for not clarifying that from the get go, I guess I assumed a fiddler, with tune experience and a little study of theory would have come across before.

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Apology accepted. I know my theory very well. Just trying to understand your concept. And I deduce that it is the ear process of the mode you are trying to explain. 

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No problem - I forget sometimes that people get taught music theory, without fully grasping some fundamental concepts.

Yes - I believe that the description and explanation of what the mode is about, should, in the simplest direct way, match with the sound.

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/26/2013:  15:58:23

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

Yes - I believe that the description and explanation of what the mode is about, should, in the simplest direct way, match with the sound.

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Music theory can not be taught with out grasping ALL the fundamental concepts. And of course scales and intervals are matched with the sounds.

And so the sounds can not be described here with the text, one must go to the instrument and taste the flavor of each mode....by playing them.

This is the point of this thread, to dircect people on what the mode is and how it is played so they can hear them for themselfs.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/26/2013:  21:19:05

Gosh, while I was at the movies, Doug D did a great job of explaining my chart.  :-)   Thanks!

Yes, indeedy, it's meant to be a quick reference for figuring out chords on the fly. Just as an exercise, though, you could have a look at tunes in the Fiddler's Fakebook and check them against my chart and see some practical connections. The Fakebook is good in that it labels tunes as Dorian or Mix and such. Studying an A mix tune at one point, it dawned on me that A mix is an A tune with only 2 sharps instead of the usual 3 that I associated with an A tune.

I'm still learning and understanding more about this stuff. It's fascinating and confusing at the same time.

Edited by - FiddleJammer on 12/26/2013 21:19:48

DougD - Posted - 12/26/2013:  23:37:31

mmuussiiccaall - Yes, I think we could agree on diminished triad - the naming convention for this doesn't seem to be standardized. This is the approach I'm used to, where "dim" means just the triad, unless "7" is specified:  piano-lessons-for-life.com/Diatonic.html  However, I played piano for years out of a fake book where "dim" meant the seventh chord - I didn't even know the simple triad existed. The "mb5" term comes from jazz I think.

Funny thing - "Classical" theory works well to describe most traditional fiddle music,, but when it comes to "modes" they're not so well covered because they haven't really been part of western "classical" music for centuries, and things can get confusing. So we get contributions from people more familiar with jazz or rock theory  (usually on guitar) who have quite a different way of thinking about some of this, and different terminology.

Edited by - DougD on 12/26/2013 23:40:46

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/27/2013:  01:21:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

when it comes to "modes" they're not so well covered because they haven't really been part of western "classical" music for centuries,

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Really..From my studies in classical music the mode is used to develop a piece of music. And there are many pieces written in modes, I could not remember exactly which so I did a little research...

Quotes I found from various sources........

Dorian...Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.

Phrygian......John Coolidge Adams, Phrygian Gates.

Lydian...... the third movement of Ludwig van Beethoven's String Quartet No. 15 in A minor, Op. 132 (1825)

composers of the 19th and 20th centuries, such as Debussy, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Rimsky Korsakoff and others sometimes revived them to take advantage of their distinctive flavours in their compositions. Debussy's composition, "The Sunken Cathedral" features the Mixolydian mode

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 12/27/2013:  08:03:33

quote:

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Originally posted by Henry George

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

when it comes to "modes" they're not so well covered because they haven't really been part of western "classical" music for centuries,

---

Really..From my studies in classical music the mode is used to develop a piece of music. And there are many pieces written in modes, I could not remember exactly which so I did a little research...

Quotes I found from various sources........

Dorian...Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.

Phrygian......John Coolidge Adams, Phrygian Gates.

Lydian...... the third movement of Ludwig van Beethoven's String Quartet No. 15 in A minor, Op. 132 (1825)

composers of the 19th and 20th centuries, such as Debussy, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Rimsky Korsakoff and others sometimes revived them to take advantage of their distinctive flavours in their compositions. Debussy's composition, "The Sunken Cathedral" features the Mixolydian mode

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I think that you are mixing specifics with generalities...That usually doesn't work well in debates (that is a generality).

fiddlebutcher - Posted - 12/28/2013:  02:46:08

quote:

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

  

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I think that you are mixing specifics with generalities...That usually doesn't work well in debates (that is a generality).

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I am sorry, I was not aware of that, I did not even realize I was in a debate. I thought I was just stating a fact.....? 

DougD - Posted - 12/28/2013:  05:11:15

Henry, thanks for those examples. Guess I should have said "rarely used." I looked around some too, and the examples seem uncommon enough to attract attention. I didn't think of this as a debate either - I thought it was an exchange of ideas for mutual "edimification."

Thinking about this has made me wonder about something else. Despite the borrowed Greek names. the modern modes have very little in common with the Greek usage, and not much in common with the Gregorian Church modes either. I haven't seen anything about when and how they came about.- its just "here they are." Anybody know?

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/28/2013:  20:01:43

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)#Greek  

From the ancient Greek with some relation to geography.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 12/30/2013:  20:28:20

Oooh. Hope that didn't kill the thread.   

DougD - Posted - 12/31/2013:  00:43:39

Well, it probably deserved to die. I'd certainly said all I needed to.

However, the Wikipedia article you linked to illustrates just what I meant in he post above. Never mind exploring the meaning of Tonoi, Harmoniai, and Melos, here are a few quotes:

From the section "Modes and scales:"  "The concept of "mode" in Western music theory has three successive stages: in Gregorian chant theory, in Renaissance polyphonic theory, and in tonal harmonic music of the common practice period."   and   "By the early 19th century, the word "mode" had taken on an additional meaning, in reference to the difference between major and minor keys, specified as "major mode" and "minor mode". At the same time, composers were beginning to conceive of "modality" as something outside of the major/minor system that could be used to evoke religious feelings or to suggest folk-music idioms (Porter 2001)."

And later:  "Although many of the names of modes in modern music theory are the same as names used by the ancient Greeks for their harmoniai, they do not represent the same sequences of intervals found even in the diatonic genus of the Greek octave species."

And lastly: "Use and conception of modes or modality today is different from that in early music....Indeed, when 19th-century composers revived the modes, they rendered them more strictly than Renaissance composers had, to make their qualities distinct from the prevailing major-minor system."

The modern concept of modes does not have an unbroken history going back to the ancient Greeks, who in fact did not actually use the term "Modern musicological practice has extended the concept of mode to earlier musical systems, such as those of Ancient Greek music, Jewish cantillation, and the Byzantine system of octoechos, as well as to non-Western musics (Powers 2001, §I, 3; Winnington-Ingram 1936, 2–3)."

My question was whether anyone here knows how and by whom the modern concept was developed and introduced. Use by composers like Kodaly, Debussy and Bartok seems the result of a 19th century revival, and in some cases the study of non-classical folk music.

Edited by - DougD on 12/31/2013 00:46:34