fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 11/08/2013:  16:35:25

After playing Squirrel hunters, I really dug the modal sound of the tune. I was wondering what other tunes out there are really modal? A bluegrass tune I really like that's modal is Old Dangerfield.

Edited by - Mandogryl on 11/08/2013 18:49:45

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/08/2013:  17:12:12

I too am a fan of Old Daingerfield. On my music page is a tune called Frosty Morn that is a fun one. Salt Creek, June Apple ( also on my page ). Cattle in the Cane is a favorite of mine. Red Haired Boy... those are all A mixolylian tunes except Cattle which has a mix of Aeolian (minor) and mixolydian

abinigia - Posted - 11/08/2013:  17:23:48

I like to play Old Dangerfield too, as well as Ebeneezer Scrooge, and a couple others from that album - Come Hither To Go Yonder is both a good tune and a great title. Lots of modal sounding bluegrass tunes are in the key of A. Kenny Baker's verision of Ducks On a Millpond is good. Also, a tune mentioned in a recent thread, Quail Is A Pretty Bird, is nice. Shove That Hogsfoot (Further In The Bed) is great too.

I recently transcribed those tunes and others and put them on my site: briankwood.net

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/08/2013:  17:32:19

Bluegrass tunes - Big Mon, Wheel Hoss. I'm not sure I would call Pigs foot modal as the version I know in G doesn't have any of the modal notes

Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 11/08/2013:  18:30:30

+1 for Cold Frosty Morning, it makes a nice set when followed by The Kitchen Girl.  Lonesome John is one I have been learning recently and I really like it but am finding the unison E with the open and the little finger on the third string a little difficult.  

Zach

abinigia - Posted - 11/08/2013:  21:41:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan



Bluegrass tunes - Big Mon, Wheel Hoss. I'm not sure I would call Pigs foot modal as the version I know in G doesn't have any of the modal notes

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Hmm... The version I know of Wheel Hoss doesn't seem modal to me, it's all in G major. Maybe it's not clear what modal means. The version of Pigs Foot I play comes from the movie Down From The Mountain anyway. Mostly what I mean by the term is that there's either an ambiguity about the key being major or minor, or the key slips back and forth between the two.

Is that what you mean by modal notes?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/09/2013:  06:37:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

 

After playing Squirrel hunters, I really dug the modal sound of the tune. I was wondering what other tunes out there are really modal? A bluegrass tune I really like that's modal is Old Dangerfield.

---

Depends on what you define as really "modal"

One is that it's neither major nor minor. Dorian and Mixolydian are 2 most common. Aeolian tunes often get labeled as "modal" and it is apt as it is not really the same as Minor. 

One way defined is a little more expanded  in that it is different (and predates) the major/minor key tonality, functional harmony (chord progression, focus on thirds and triads) concepts, . Modal sticks closer to a fluidity. Like Aeolian is not same as Minor, Ionian is not same as Major, despite they look alike. I wouldn't consider tunes that just switch between major and minor as modal.

Many of my favorite tunes are "modal"

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 11/09/2013 06:43:59

Phyddlyr - Posted - 11/09/2013:  07:05:18

Is the King of all modal tunes Cluck Ol 'Hen? Or is it something else?

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/09/2013:  08:37:27

In Wheel Hoss, don't you play both G and F cord notes? In the key of G? If so, modal. And yes, I think what most people think of as modal is ambiguity of key, but as Alaska points out, usually Dorian and Mixolydian are the scales. Cluck Old Hen is probably in there. Mixolydian is THE rock and roll mode. Dorian is common in minor-ish Irish tunes. O. D. starts minor-y goes major then throws that G cord in on the third part which is where it gets Mixolydian. Twisted really.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/09/2013:  12:30:45

In Old Time, by far the most modal tunes have been preserved in the key of A. Bluegrass has tended to draw in the better known Old Time standards, and modal tunes are some of the favorites.

If it starts and ends using A major, and uses the same scale notes as the key of D, it's A mixolydian.

If it starts and ends using A minor, and uses the same scale notes as the key of G, it's A dorian.

The difference in the two on fiddle is whether you play C or C#.   C# is the third of the A major chord, and playing C forces the main chord to be A minor in the guitar backup.

So you can get cues from the guitar player's chording if you know guitar, and even if you don't, it's a REALLY GOOD IDEA to be able to visually "read" the difference between an A minor and an A major chord... and actually, ALL the common first position "cowboy chords".

Aside from that, both kinds of modal tunes have a lot of changes to G, (the VII chord) where one would normally have a V chord, like the very last chord change of a tune part.

A Mixolydian (with the A major chord) also has IV chord changes (D major chord in A) about where you would expect them in a major tune... Red Haired Boy would be a good example.

abinigia - Posted - 11/09/2013:  17:01:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

In Old Time, by far the most modal tunes have been preserved in the key of A. Bluegrass has tended to draw in the better known Old Time standards, and modal tunes are some of the favorites.

If it starts and ends using A major, and uses the same scale notes as the key of D, it's A mixolydian.

If it starts and ends using A minor, and uses the same scale notes as the key of G, it's A dorian.

The difference in the two on fiddle is whether you play C or C#.   C# is the third of the A major chord, and playing C forces the main chord to be A minor in the guitar backup.

So you can get cues from the guitar player's chording if you know guitar, and even if you don't, it's a REALLY GOOD IDEA to be able to visually "read" the difference between an A minor and an A major chord... and actually, ALL the common first position "cowboy chords".

Aside from that, both kinds of modal tunes have a lot of changes to G, (the VII chord) where one would normally have a V chord, like the very last chord change of a tune part.

A Mixolydian (with the A major chord) also has IV chord changes (D major chord in A) about where you would expect them in a major tune... Red Haired Boy would be a good example.

---

Yeah, what Fiddlepogo said. Personally, I don't usually consider a chord change to the sub-tonic (A to G) in itself be be modal, bluesy maybe, but I reallize it's a non-specific term. It's remarkable how many major/minor fiddle tunes are in the key of A, and how many of those use a G chord. I'd still say Wheel Hoss isn't modal by my definition.

Going back to the virtual fiddle thread I discovered that there must be 2 Hog's Foots (at least). The one I referenced is not what's been mentioned here, I don't think. It's called "Shove That Hogsfoot Further In The Bed", played by John Hartford in the movie concert Down From The Mountain. It's a pretty cool tune. It starts like Red Haired Boy and then goes all wonky. It sounds modal to me by going from the A chord to an Em chord, instead of E. Then it goes to G and back to A. I won't claim it's modal anymore since the Key of A is unambiguous, but it has a weird sound which I like.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 11/09/2013:  21:33:30

Cool I'll have to check that tune out, I like weird stuff.

DougD - Posted - 11/10/2013:  05:18:45

abinigia - Yes, the tune John Hartford plays in "Down From the Mountain" is from Ed Haley. I don't know if it was on his CDs or not. John also plays a haunting version of "Man of Constant Sorrow" in the film, also from Ed Haley.

abinigia - Posted - 11/10/2013:  08:26:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

abinigia - Yes, the tune John Hartford plays in "Down From the Mountain" is from Ed Haley. I don't know if it was on his CDs or not. John also plays a haunting version of "Man of Constant Sorrow" in the film, also from Ed Haley.

---

Here's a transcription. (I haven't put attachments on post before, hope it works).

Hogsfoot

alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/10/2013:  14:22:44

Hogsfoot is a pretty standard A mixolydian tune.

Choosing to overlay an Em chord does make it sound very unusual (if not wonky) I think it's the chord choice that is creating that, not the melody.

For many folks hearing that melody would opt for a default G chord there. Perhaps end the phrase with an E major. (where you have G)

But it is quite common to hear those mixolydian tunes of old just use an E major or better yet E dyad. It makes sense as it keeps focus of  the V as secondary space. This works especially well if the melodic player breaks out of enharmonic 12TET, like using more neutral tones, less focus on the major/minor.

For many of those Mixolydian tunes, like Henry Reed's Kitchen Girl, I much prefer the latter choices - (and both parts in A mixolydian; no G chord, no A minor).

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 11/10/2013:  14:26:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

 

abinigia - Yes, the tune John Hartford plays in "Down From the Mountain" is from Ed Haley. I don't know if it was on his CDs or not. John also plays a haunting version of "Man of Constant Sorrow" in the film, also from Ed Haley.

---

Here's a transcription. (I haven't put attachments on post before, hope it works).

 

 

---

Thanks Brian, I played that tune a bit, definetly a little wonky there. I'll see if I can work up a version and post it.

abinigia - Posted - 11/10/2013:  15:03:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

Hogsfoot is a pretty standard A mixolydian tune.

Choosing to overlay an Em chord does make it sound very unusual (if not wonky) I think it's the chord choice that is creating that, not the melody.

For many folks hearing that melody would opt for a default G chord there. Perhaps end the phrase with an E major. (where you have G)

But it is quite common to hear those mixolydian tunes of old just use an E major or better yet E dyad. It makes sense as it keeps focus of  the V as secondary space. This works especially well if the melodic player breaks out of enharmonic 12TET, like using more neutral tones, less focus on the major/minor.

For many of those Mixolydian tunes, like Henry Reed's Kitchen Girl, I much prefer the latter choices - (and both parts in A mixolydian; no G chord, no A minor).

---

Yeah, I wouldn't vouch for how the band chords this tune behind Hartford, but I hear the Em to G in my head and like that effect. For the most part I prefer chord arrangements that move the melody along. For myself I prefer Kitchen Girl with the G chord, and the 2nd part in Am. It's a little more modern, less old timey, which suits me. I respect your tastes as well. Very interesting. Thanks.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 11/10/2013:  17:10:12

Not sure of the accuracy, but here's a bushel of them...

Modal - (Fiddles tuned AEAE.

Banjo mtn modal = gDGCD / capo 

2 = aEADE)

============================

Abe's Retreat

Betsy Likens (A mix)

Boating Up Sandy(A Dorian)

Bunch of Keys (A Mix)

Camp Chase

Chilly Winds

Christmas Morning 

Cluck Old Hen (A Dorian)

Cold Frosty Morning

Elzick's Farewell

Falls of Richmond

Greasy Coat

Jeff Sturgeon?

June Apple (A mix)

Mike in the Wilderness

Natchez

Pretty Polly

Santa Anna's Retreat (A Mix)

Shelvin' Rock 

Ways of the World

Yew Piney Mountain

Sail Away Ladies 

Sandy Boys

Tater Patch (A Mix)

Trouble on the Mind

Modal - fiddles tuned GDAE

All Young

Ducks in the Pond

Fine Times at Our House

Frosty Morning

Hannah at the Springhouse

Hickory Jack

Jenny on the Railroad

Johnny Cope

Kitchen Girl

Little Rose (A min - C)

Little Sadie

Loch Laven Castle

Paddy on the Turnpike

Pretty Little Dog (A Aeol)

Rainy Days

Sally in the Garden (A Aeolian)

Same Old Man

Shady Grove 

Shaking Down the Acorns

Texas

Twenty-eighth of January

Twin Sisters

West Virginia Girls

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 11/10/2013:  17:16:11

You rock! Now I have to go find audio clips of them.

DougD - Posted - 11/10/2013:  17:35:04

I'll bet you'll find lots of them, and probably more, here: slippery-hill.com/M-K/  There are several sections of modal tunes in A, D, E and G in various tunings.

Edited by - DougD on 11/10/2013 17:41:11

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/11/2013:  07:05:56

Kitchen girl us the bomb!  

Fiddler - Posted - 11/11/2013:  08:05:09

I don't think there is a "king of modal" tunes. "Cluck Old Hen" is just overplayed IMO. Take a look at FiddleJammers list above. They are ALL royalty!   And there are a pile of other modal tunes she didn't list. 

fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/11/2013:  12:53:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Kitchen girl us the bomb!  

---

Yeah, I really like it.  And it has something different going on.... it changes modes....  usually mixolydian in the A part, dorian in the B part.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/11/2013:  13:01:43

One thing about modal tunes I don't think anyone has mentioned yet.

SOME work REALLY well in Standard GDAE tuning... usually if they have something in them that rocks around a G double stop on the D and A strings, or the open G and D.   I like those tunes a lot.  Also tunes like Red Haired Boy or Texas (Newcastle) that suggest a D major change work better in Standard, IMO.

Some are very droney, and like AEAE better... they don't linger on the G's and D's, so they don't suggest strong G chord changes as much.

Some sound cool either way.

The way they start on the low part makes me think that  Ducks on the Pond and George Booker were written by a fiddler whose fiddle was tuned AEAE (or GDGD, or AbEbAbEb.... or somewhere in that vicinity), but I learned them both in Standard tuning, and they work fine.  In fact, I think Henry Reed played Ducks on the Pond in Standard.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 11/15/2013:  20:02:48

Lot of A modal tunes work well in high bass tuning... ADAE.

Don't ask me which ones. I usually wait until the tune's gone by a few times, then remember that it works well in high bass.

timfiskwa - Posted - 11/30/2013:  20:37:10

I always thought modal tunes involved shifting keys back and forth, not chords. A to G, D to C, G to F and back again. Thats what makes it unique.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 11/30/2013:  20:47:11

Hmm I always thought modal meant a different mode in the same key, not changing keys, which would be modulating.

amwildman - Posted - 11/30/2013:  22:14:19

Modal tunes are tunes that retain the same number of sharps or flats, but center around a different root note.  For example a 'D' tune has 2 sharps.  Another tune might have 2 sharps but center around E.  This would be an E dorian tune, rather than D major.  These other modes give the tune a very Gregarian chant/middle ages/dark feel.  Or however you want to describe the feel.

Personally, my favorite mode to play in is E dorian.  It is the perfect blend.  Certain parts of the tune can feel downright major, and yet turn around and feel completely minor.  Good contrast.

Lots of these types of tunes in Irish music. 

boxbow - Posted - 12/01/2013:  07:14:12

I've been getting the hang of an F Dorian tune (think C minorish, kinda sorta, but resolves to an F) just lately.  It's been on my music stand for several years, but it just wouldn't settle under my fingers.  Now it is, and it's a pretty cool tune, as well.  That comes as a surprise, because I originally picked it out because it was such a struggle to get under the fingers, not because it was likely to sound any good.  It's called "The Foot That Faltered" in 3/4 time and I lifted it from thesession.org/tunes/10074.  My point is that playing modal tunes can be a great skill builder.  The Eb's and the B naturals require a little accommodation.

mad baloney - Posted - 12/01/2013:  07:39:09

like Am said... a modal tune usually refers to tunes in either the dorian or mixolydian mode. Dorian gives a minor feeling, but is a little brighter - the Edorian mode has a C# where a true Eminor scale would have a C natural, which allows for it's fminor/major lip-flop-ability that AM was talking about. 

The common ones for fiddle music are A dorian & E dorian but there are a sprinkling of E dorian and D dorian tunes.

Mixolydian tunes are much more major sounding but have that flat 7th which most people associate with scottish bagpipe music. Like 'Scotland the Brave' 

The common mixolydian modes for fiddle tunes are Amix, Dmix, Gmix and a smattering of others, but those are the most popular, pretty much in that order.

I attached a quick cheatsheet for scales and modes in zero to 4 sharps this covers 90%+ of most fiddle tunes.

FWIW in theory speak, the major scale is called the Ionian mode and the minor scale is called the aeolian mode.

Scales and Modes for Common Keys

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/01/2013:  12:38:18

I disagree. For example, take the Doc Watson modal tune "Tennessee Stud". In the first verse, "Along about 1825", all the notes are in the key of D. The next line, "I left Tennessee very much alive" all the notes are in the key of C. It's not fancy theory, just modulating between keys.

amwildman - Posted - 12/01/2013:  13:41:35

"fancy theory".  Because having a more complete understanding of music structure is bad?

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/01/2013:  13:50:26

I apologize. I think the "modal" tune theory doesn't quite fit in with western classical music, and as such is hard to classify. There is a folk tradition beyond and predating Bach and Western Classical Music. It is a folk tradition not readily or easily described in traditional western music theory. I had a hard time with modal tunes until I talked with some fiddlers in Weiser back in the 80's who proved to me it is based on key changes, not chord changes. Please prove me wrong if you know more.

mad baloney - Posted - 12/01/2013:  15:42:50

Based on key changes more than chord changes? 

Look I ain't blowing my horn, but I'll blow my horn - I went to school for theory/harmony/composition and I don't think you grasped what they where telling you. Modes don't have anything to do with chord or key changes, modes and scales are a simply a series of tones.

if a song or melody line modulates in key or even to another mode, that's a modulation.

modes are 100% part of western music, where do you think they got their names?

ChickenMan - Posted - 12/01/2013:  16:15:24

And if I may add, much if what is referred to as modal in collected American folk music was often (as in most to all of it) unaccompanied voice or fiddle. Chord instruments were rare and melodies weren't bound by what might be called popular music's rules until the onset of banjo and later guitar. Even the proto banjo was likely played in modal fashion. African melodies are often modal. I often refer to modal tunes as having a mountain sound. I have no idea what I mean by that other than they sound old.

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/01/2013:  16:35:25

Dear Mad Baloney and AmWildman,
Thanks for the reply. OK, I admit my lack of formal music education, but, try to play "Tennessee Stud" in Dmix, I can't. I don't think modal tunes fit your theory using only a single mode (90+%). I think it works better using two modes, a D to C key change within the tune. Hence the term "Modal". I did not get a degree in music theory, but lots of people play modal tunes without knowing the theory behind it. Occam's razor means the simplest explanation is most often correct, and I learned modal tunes as (mostly) major key changes, A to G, D to C, G to F and so on within the tune to make them sound correct. They are simple. For example, play the dominant key, (A), then move down to the next key below (G) and back again. Perhaps a Music PhD thesis could be put forth and defended using Alan Lomax's modal tune recordings and parsing the precise mode or modes. Do you know of such studies? Are modulations within tunes unheard of? And, modes got their names from the Italians, of course, via the Greeks. I keep a open mind and value your response. I'm even learning a thing or two :<)

amwildman - Posted - 12/01/2013:  17:09:22

Tim, are you approaching this from a guitar standpoint?  Because otherwise I can't understand why you are locked into "key changes" for a fiddle tune.  I don't know any modal tunes that randomly drop two sharps or add two sharps, like A to G.  There are plenty of tunes in the Irish tradition that have the occasional sharp or flat.  There are several tunes that switch from C to C# during the tune to give a different feel, like King of the Fairies.  There are even tunes that switch from major in the A part to modal in the B part, like Maudabawn Chapel. 

And modes are named simply to give them a label.  Modes are not determined by the number of sharps or the key, they are determined by the pattern of half steps and whole steps in the scale.  I know it sounds hokey, but I learned most of my theory from amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Gui...592574378.  That or similar really makes a good bathroom reader. 

mad baloney - Posted - 12/01/2013:  17:59:00

Your talking about  tunes in the Mixolydian mode, Yes a tune like "Paddy on the Turnpike" goes between G and F and is in G Mixolydian.  Tennessee Stud is in Dmix, Scotland the Brave is in A mix. Which brings up a point, The mixolydian mode is the scale of a highland bagpipe, that's why Mix tunes can have a Scottish feel, the natural 7th (C in the Tennessee Stud) sounds more consonant (nicer) against a D drone than a C# would, that's why bagpipes use that mode.

There are other modes, the dorian mode is another common mode, "Shady Grove" is in that mode, The predominant chords are Emin and Dmaj there are a slew of Irish tunes in E and A dorian, more than are in pure E and A minor. 

The other modes are less common, usually because they have an augmented or diminished 5th or 4th or have some other quirk.

Look at it this way If you are in the key of C here's your modes

C to C is the major scale aka Ionian mode - we all know and love it.

D to D is Dorian - a darker sounding mode, but not as dark as true minor

E to E is Phrygian - A dark sounding mode, funky because it starts off with a half step, but very musical

F to F is Lydian - Bright, but not often used because it has an augmented fourth - very dissonant.

G to G is Mixolydian Bright, sounds great with a drone - common with fiddle tunes

A to A is Natural Minor aka Aeolian mode, the classic minor scale in western music. When the G in an A minor scale is sharpened to G# you get a Harmonic Minor scale which has a distinct 'gypsy' feel to it. If you play it with a F# and G# on the way up and Fnat and Gnat on the way down you have a Melodic Minor, very useful in improvising leads. 

B to B is called the Locrian mode and is weird, it has a diminished 5th and wants to resolve to it's second or seventh degrees. It's mostly used to construct a passing phrase to get back to major or minor.

So modal as a term is as useless as scalar., it's a colloquialism.

When it comes to 90%+ of tunes, if they aren't major or minor they are dorian or mixolydian most are in a key signature having zero to 4 sharps,  Yes there are tunes in with more sharps (E and B etc) and there are some that are in flat keys but 90%+ fall into those key signatures in major, minor, dorian, mixolydian. 

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/01/2013:  18:48:41

Thanks! But, can't you twist it to do it my way? For instance, "Little Beggarman", or "Red Haired Boy" is in A Ionian mode or Key, the G chord change makes it G Ionian mode or Key, then back to A Ionian. Switching modulation as you play. I'm a fair fiddler and mediocre guitarist with over 30 years playing. All I know is Ionian and Aeolian modes in G,D,A,C,E,F,and Bflat. I can read music but slowly. As I play by ear with no great comprehension of theory, I learn any way I can. Thanks for the theory lesson.

fiddlinsteudel, play the tune until it sounds right and learn those mixolydian modes. I encourage you to try it my way on the side.

mad baloney - Posted - 12/01/2013:  19:16:36

You can call green yellowish-blue if you want. Kind of the same thing, not really incorrect, yet incorrect and fuzzy in meaning.

The little beggarman is a mix tune from one end to the other, if it was truly going from Amaj to G major for one note it would be reflected by changing the entire key signature for one note, why not just call it as it is?

What about dulcimers, bagpipes and other fixed diatonic instruments which can only play a G natural? With them It seems even more absurd to play Chinese fire drills with the key signature when you can just say the tune is in Mix. 

Why is it B major instead of Cb major? 5 sharps vs 7 flats on the page, some things are just easier.

Edited by - mad baloney on 12/01/2013 19:19:11

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/01/2013:  19:41:39

quote:

Originally posted by timfiskwa

Thanks! But, can't you twist it to do it my way? For instance, "Little Beggarman", or "Red Haired Boy" is in A Ionian mode or Key, the G chord change makes it G Ionian mode or Key, then back to A Ionian. Switching modulation as you play. I'm a fair fiddler and mediocre guitarist with over 30 years playing. All I know is Ionian and Aeolian modes in G,D,A,C,E,F,and Bflat. I can read music but slowly. As I play by ear with no great comprehension of theory, I learn any way I can. Thanks for the theory lesson.



fiddlinsteudel, play the tune until it sounds right and learn those mixolydian modes. I encourage you to try it my way on the side.

Tim, so how do you apply the way you think about modes to your playing? Are you using them for improvising?

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/01/2013:  20:05:32

fiddlinsteudel, 

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/01/2013:  20:25:43

sorry, lost the thread. I don't think about modes, I just match notes to the recording I'm learning from (and, with apologies to the scholars, change keys when the chord changes, but only two Ionian keys are used mixolydianly! A to G = Dmix, is that right?). If you are learning from sheet music, it will not sound right if done with the wrong notes, the flats and sharps can seem random and weird at first. After the tune is memorized, then I can improvise.
Learn all the modal tunes you can. They will make you a better player. Modal 2 chord tunes replace the 5th chord with the 7th. So Red Haired boy would be A-G instead of A-E in an A major scale. Hope that helps.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/01/2013:  20:41:14

I don't have a problem learning tunes either by ear or by sheet music, but I guess I'm not clear on why it's really important other than edification or improv.

Also I didn't really follow this statement: "Modal 2 chord tunes replace the 5th chord with the 7th. So Red Haired boy would be A-G instead of A-E in an A major scale. Hope that helps."

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/01/2013:  20:49:38

quote:

Originally posted by timfiskwa

Thanks! But, can't you twist it to do it my way? For instance, "Little Beggarman", or "Red Haired Boy" is in A Ionian mode or Key, the G chord change makes it G Ionian mode or Key, then back to A Ionian. Switching modulation as you play. I'm a fair fiddler and mediocre guitarist with over 30 years playing. All I know is Ionian and Aeolian modes in G,D,A,C,E,F,and Bflat. I can read music but slowly. As I play by ear with no great comprehension of theory, I learn any way I can. Thanks for the theory lesson.



fiddlinsteudel, play the tune until it sounds right and learn those mixolydian modes. I encourage you to try it my way on the side.

Not sure why you would use Tennessee Stud as any paradigm, or model to explain modes. How do you account for the F and Am chords or keys?

But as far as just trying it - Just try and use the OP Squirrel Hunters (and tunes like that) your way.

So using you methodology the B (high) part using the key of A major (or Ionian) - well the melody immediately goes e/g/a/b/a/g/e/d/e/g/a - hmmmm g note is not part of A major/ionian and one would expect it to use more f#, g# and drop down to a c# note? Now those mid phrases using the "rule/formula" that is the key of G major - well the tune goes g/a/b/c#/d b/c#/d/c#/b/c#/d - c# is not part of G major.

The explanation IMO would be quite complex, far from simple, require some fancy explanation. Compare that the mad baloney's and amwildman's - their's seem far more simple.

I think you are conflating "chord" and it's root - with "key" and mode. A few things your changing keys explanation, are you also stating regular tunes going A major to D major to E major chords as the same - just modulating major keys? And doesn't your expiation lack some basic things like answering the simple "what key is this in?" and any explanation of how the modulating keys relate to each other (is it just random?) and any sense of "home" pitch?

This other explanation answer's quite simple IMO "what key?" Key=the pitch to which all other pitches relate, the home pitch; and mode as what note set (and how those notes) relate to the home. And that is identified through the melody, not the chords used.

I learned modal tunes as (mostly) major key changes, A to G, D to C, G to F and so on within the tune to make them sound correct. They are simple.

To make them sound correct? Are you sure that rule/formula achieves that? No doubt if you play A to G and back chords it will complete the circular logic and create that sound. FiddleJammer listed a bunch of OT modal tunes that include A Mixolydian tunes that  a G chord would not be the best choice, some not at all. But again, it's not the chords that define the mode, it's the melody, and those tunes pretty well conform to mad baloney's and amwildman's understanding and explanation of modes.

...lots of people play modal tunes without knowing the theory behind it.

...I think the "modal" tune theory doesn't quite fit in with western classical music, and as such is hard to classify. There is a folk tradition beyond and predating Bach and Western Classical Music. It is a folk tradition not readily or easily described in traditional western music theory.

Exactly.  Doesn't take a phd, It does take a bit of a realization, open mind, that you have to abandon a bit of what you were taught about western major/minor tonal theory, rules/formulas; and listen outside of that filter. Trad Irish musicians have a pretty fair grasp on modes; as do many traditional Appalachian players. Most can state quite simply what THE KEY a tune is in. And one can often tell the difference between ones who really grasp it and ones just applying what someone told them or they read in a book.

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/01/2013:  21:40:14

Ouch! Mine ego lies in tatters.. I guess written communication continues to be a huge barrier to understanding. As to key identification, Red Haired boy is in A modal, Tennessee Stud in D modal, June Apple in A modal, etc.... When you reduce music to words, notes, and numbers you limit and constrict it. Just do what most of us men suck at, LISTEN.

amwildman - Posted - 12/01/2013:  22:03:18

I don't see how the music is limited by studying it in-depth. Wouldn't that give you a better understanding of how to communicate the ideas with others, or to know what the rules are, and when to bend/break those rules?  Don't get me wrong, I don't see any of this as such being necessary to playing traditional music.  it does help immensely with improvising, adding harmonies, and varying the tune.   

Music theory is the study of how music fits together, how everything is related.  You seem to have the impression that it is a big burden.  It is not.  Learning it does require effort, but knowing this theory does not limit or restrict your playing ability in any way.  Does me knowing that a tune is in D mixylodian prevent me from playing the tune?  Does your viewing modes as key changes prevent you from playing the tune? 

And Tim, don't worry about it.  50 years ago this much thought would never have gone into folk music.  It is a sign of the times that there is so much information available to the common person.  In a lot of ways, it's a good thing.  I mean, where did somebody learn to play folk music 50 years ago?  Unless music ran in your family or you had folk musicians who were family friends, you would be playing band music in high school if you picked up an instrument at all.  Now, lots of folks are like me.  I saw Riverdance on OPB one time, and back in 2006 found Kevin Burke on the internet.  One thing led to another, and here I am playing Irish music.  I've made some musical connections both online and in person.  If this were 50 years ago, or even 20 I would never have had the opportunity to play traditional music.  When your music attracts different types of people than it used to, you are going to have more diverse opinions and approaches than ever before.  Now I'll stop down off the soapbox.

p.s.  lol @ the listening thing. 

alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/01/2013:  22:15:05

change keys when the chord changes,

Why do you need to change keys when you change chords? In the key of A major, most folks would say playing a D major cord is a IV chord, in the KEY of A MAJOR.

but only two Ionian keys are used mixolydianly! A to G = Dmix, is that right?).

No and probably no. Mixolydian tunes can and do use both  IV chord and a V chord. A to G chord progressions more likely called the key of A, the mode is mixolydian so Amix.

If you are learning from sheet music, it will not sound right if done with the wrong notes, the flats and sharps can seem random and weird at first.

If you are learning from sheet music it simply tells you the notes to use; you read it wrong and play wrong notes, it won't sound right.

sorry, lost the thread. I don't think about modes, I just match notes to the recording I'm learning from (and, with apologies to the scholars....

I don't have a problem learning tunes either by ear or by sheet music, but I guess I'm not clear on why it's really important other than edification or improv.

I suppose nothing wrong with just matching note by note sequence off of a recording (or reading the notes) and not be aware of any organization rhyme or reason to it, just notes - but I think recognizing and a bit of understanding that the notes are organized, as a useful thing - as opposed to just a bunch seemingly random notes with no logic to it. Doesn't have anything to do with being a scholar, nor necessarily mean reading music or studying formal music theory. As abstract as it seems, it's about how that structure sounds, and IMO important to hear it. I highly advocate that type of  "by ear". Like understanding the major scale. Like how most every Irish player (even the pure by ear ones) has a fundamental recognition and understanding of E Dorian.

One way it's helpful is when learning a new tune, to quickly recognize the sound of it's familiar harmonic structure; I find helps quickly guide my fingers to the right notes. Can aide to pick up tunes on the fly, by ear. Think structure also helps the memorization; as I don't have to rote memorize note by note sequence.  For myself I find a benefit in understanding the weight each pitch has, in relation to the key and other note relationships; giving meaning to the notes, useful for expression and articulation, and of course useful for improv. Another way I use understanding of structure is useful for finer intonation (non 12TET). Of course it is useful for backing up melodies as well, not only in choices of chords, voicing of chord, but as well choices of when to change chords. While I can just listen to the chord progression of another, (or read it written down) understanding structure makes it possible to hear intent on a tune I'm hearing just the melody. Oh, yeah, it does come in useful when having conversation, discussion with other musicians if we understand terminology and concepts.

But not saying anyone has to, certainly have the option to avoid any of that understanding.

timfiskwa - Posted - 12/02/2013:  06:01:14

Here is a quote from Miles Krassen's 1973 book, "Appalachian Fiddle" beginning the chapter on modal tunes.
"Modal Tunes are a type of melody common in the Southern Appalachians which uses a scale that is neither major nor minor. I like to call them A to G tunes since they are usually based on a harmonic progression which moves from A (either major or minor) to G and back to A. This progression, so deceptively simple, has nevertheless proved vital enough to provide a basis for many of the oldest and most distinctive Southern Appalachian fiddle tunes.

Although played in all parts of the mountains, modal tunes are most plentiful in the areas of West Virginia and eastern Kentucky. In these states it is still possible to meet an old fiddler who can play modal tunes for hours on end without repeating himself. Modal tunes ore for the white mountaineer what the blues are for the rural Southern Black. These tunes seem to naturally express the temperament of the mountaineer in his rugged and isolated environment. Perhaps this is why they still remain most common in those parts of the mountains which have been least affected by the synthetic culture of our time.

Basically, modal tunes hark back to the old Highland Scottish bagpipe music. The Scottish bagpipe chanter sounds a pitch just slightly sharper than G# in the key of A. The pipes cannot play a G# which ordinarily helps to establish both the major and minor tonalities of the key of A. Consequently, highland pipe music contains a great variety of A to G tunes in a mode which is called double tonic.

Probably, settlers of Scotch-Irish descent brought this modality with them to the Southern Appalachians where it nutured the beautiful modal fiddle tunes which are by now distinctly American."

Diatonic instruments can't play modal tunes. That is why it is a fiddler's issue.