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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/35477/2
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/02/2013: 07:14:07
Thank you for the reply. I guess my main beef is that I don't believe all Modal tunes can be pigeon holed as simply a single key Mixolydian tune. I think the well runs a little deeper than that. That said, I'll bone up on music theory.
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/02/2013: 07:26:16
P.S. Your reference said the tune "Wild Bill Jones" is Hexatonic, mode 2, b.. Is that right?
DougD - Posted - 12/02/2013: 07:38:07
BTW, I think Miles Krassen's description of the tuning of the bagpipes is misleading. I'm no piper, and the tuning issues are complicated, but its tuned to a Mixolydian scale with not all notes tuned according to equal temperament. More here if you want: publish.uwo.ca/~emacphe3/pipes...cale.html
DougD - Posted - 12/02/2013: 09:18:10
Tim - "P.S. Your reference said the tune "Wild Bill Jones" is Hexatonic, mode 2, b.. Is that right?"
According to their system, yes. They considered the scale to begin on E, the last note of the song. Its hexatonic (six notes, with no second). The scale is E,G,A,B.C,D. That's all that's used in the melody. As I said, the system in that book is not what we might think of today. It mostly tries to describe and classify "gapped" scales with missing notes, like pentatonic and hexatonic melodies.
I'm a little surprised even to find "Will Bill Jones" in that book, since I thought it was an American song, not English. I've played it many times, in A major, but this is a different version - for one thing its in 3/4 time!
Edited by - DougD on 12/02/2013 09:21:38
DougD - Posted - 12/02/2013: 09:45:42
Since you mentioned it, here's the version of "Wild Bill Jones" I'm used to: amazon.com/Wild-Bill-Jones/dp/...tringband Its an example of a common way of dealing with these tunes - the fiddles play a G natural, but the guitar plays an E major chord. I'm playing guitar, and a lot of times I'm not playing a full chord, just an E note as part of some kind of blues bass run.
Edited by - DougD on 12/02/2013 09:50:17
DougD - Posted - 12/02/2013: 15:36:38
I've been pondering this "double tonic" idea and have a few thoughts:
The example at the wireharp site ("Drunken Sailor") involves the keys of Dmin (presumably) and C Major. She mentions the difference between the thirds - minor in the D part and Major in the C part . Looking at the examples of the white keys of the piano to illustrate modes you can see that using the Dorian mode starting on D and the Major mode starting on C would work using the same scale (set of tones) but moving the tonic down from D to C. This would also work from A to G, but only with A Dorian mode. The key signature, of one sharp would stay the same, but the tonic would move down one step, so the scale is different. In other words you'd have two scales in two keys but using the same set of notes, and the same key signature.
This doesn't work out so well with the Mixolydian mode but the pipes have a low "G" below the "A" scale, and if you shift the tonic down there I guess that results in a "double tonic" tune. The exact tuning of the pipes seems so idiosyncratic to me that I don't know exactly what is happening in that case. The scale, whatever it is, would stay the same, but the tonic would be one note lower.
Edited by - DougD on 12/02/2013 15:44:58
boxbow - Posted - 12/02/2013: 17:47:56
For my purposes, music theory accomplishes one thing. It gives me a common language with another player because it doesn't always work to say, "Listen, it goes like this." Sometimes it's useful to ask, "What did I just hear?" and get an explanation, perhaps accompanied by a demonstration. It is descriptive, not predictive, like Boyle's Law or something.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/02/2013: 20:53:24
That version of Wild Bill Jones (if same as my book) is melodically very close to what Dock Boggs sings. It's in G Ionian. The trick is that, like Dock, ends phrases with that sixth note. (other Appalachian songs do that as well) - Dock's version is pentatonic, does not use a C note.
There other versions are in A Dorian; as well as (and one I usually play) in solid A Mixolydian and uses a G note but not G chord.
I can't recall exactly what he meant by mode 2 b, but it wasn't anything to do with some Modal 2 as having 2 keys (there is no F maj to it); or any universal music theory. Rather it was just his unique ethnologic way to describe and categorize the different tune types; to which you have to look at the beginning reference which explains it.
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/03/2013: 17:51:00
Doug, Thanks for the vindication. Don't go to deep down the Modal well, you might see old Scratch.
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/03/2013: 17:52:38
Doug, Thanks for the vindication. Don't go to deep down the Modal well, you might see old Scratch.
DougD - Posted - 12/04/2013: 04:27:17
BTW, Tim, I now see that by "Modal 2 chord tunes" you just meant modal tunes with two chords. I read that as "Mode 2" and thought it was some system of classification for guitar players or something.
Anyway, I don't have any problem with modes but I've noticed that people seem to come up with their own ways of understanding them. As the Wireharp article says "The debate is really one of semantics."
My old band recorded several modal tunes, some of which have been notated in books, but I don't think we ever talked about "modes". We were just interested in what chords would give the sound we wanted. It doesn't really matter if you think of a G chord as a flat 7 or a double tonic, or appropriate for Mixolydian mode. Its still a G chord.
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/06/2013: 06:46:16
OK, I've read David Harp's "Music Theory Made Easy", and here is my Modal Theory. Here is a two Octave C major (Ionian) scale for reference.
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
Dorian D E F G A B C D
Myxolydian G A B C D E F G
Aeloian A B C D E F G A
Modal B C D E F G A B
Please tell me if I'm crazy.Thanks.
DougD - Posted - 12/06/2013: 06:58:00
Well your spelling's not too good, but you might not be crazy. Why do you call the scale beginning on B "Modal?" That's the Locrian mode which is almost never used because it doesn't have a perfect fifth. From Wikipedia: "The Locrian mode is traditionally considered theoretical rather than practical because the triad built on the seventh scale degree is diminished."
If you like this approach you'd be better off using the chart mad baloney posted in this thread: fiddlehangout.com/topic/35751
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/06/2013: 07:00:15
Oh wait, that's Mad Baloney's Locrian Mode. Is it a Modal mode too? It is demonstrably weird.
DougD - Posted - 12/06/2013: 07:15:11
No, there's no "Modal mode." They're all modes, and this one is Locrian. There's no need to even think about it though.
Practically speaking, all you need to learn are major, minor, Mixolydian and Dorian in a few keys. The subject can be a lot more complicated than that though, if you want. Here's the Wikipedia article for starters: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28music%29
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/06/2013: 07:15:31
Transposing Miles Krassen's A to G Harmonics does yield either a key change from A major to G major or a Locrian mode. For example, the tune "Give the Fiddler a Dram"
A major for first refrain- "Fiddler a Dram": G major for second refrain- "Fiddler a Dram, Come on Give.."; A major-"..the Fiddler a dram." This is only for the A part of the song. The B part reverts to a normal, non-modal chord progression.
Sorry about the spelling, it is early. Is the Modal tune a simple transition from the tonic I chord to the VII chord? That is my interpretation.
ChickenMan - Posted - 12/06/2013: 08:34:41
Modal seems to be a term used by scholars to begin long winded discussions as to why the only old time fiddlers don't follow the rules of standard major and minor keys.
Less talk MORE FIDDLE.
DougD - Posted - 12/06/2013: 09:38:19
I heartily agree with ChickenMan and your last post. I've just spent a few enjoyable minutes playing "Give the Fiddler A Dram," and I'll give this one more try.
"Give the Fiddler a Dram" is in A Mixolydian. The scale is A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G. All the notes in the passages you mentioned are contained in that scale - there is no need to modulate or change key. Additionally, the triad formed on the seventh degree of that scale happens to be G-B-D, a G chord which is available for use if you want. Again, it does not need to change key or modulate to do so.
The term "modal" is often used loosely by "folk" musicians to describe tunes that don't sound quite major or minor without being any more specific. It doesn't refer to modulation. In musical terms a mode is "an arrangement of the eight diatonic notes or tones of an octave according to one of several fixed schemes of their intervals." However that's just a specialized use of the general meaning of "a way or manner in which something occurs or is experienced, expressed, or done," as "mode of travel" or "mode of thinking."
And speaking of modes of thinking, I'd suggest you take another look at your reference and see if it really describes the white key scale beginning on B as just "Modal." If it does throw it away.
That's all from me on this topic. Good luck with your theory studies.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/06/2013: 23:39:03
Modal seems to be a term used by scholars to begin long winded discussions as to why the only old time fiddlers don't follow the rules of standard major and minor keys.
Well I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Of course this is in the music theory, and some concepts are a bit complex (no requirement to read any of it, or comment if you find it uninteresting, too complex or of no use) - just to say that I am a big fan of older ideas of modal. Part of what makes it complex to discuss, and long winded it to explain while you could just use it as a version of major/minor and use enharmonic 12TET, and these things seems rather moot; IMO it creates a rather watered down version, and that theres a WHY the older is not major/minor - that there some other things going on, much more than that it has a flat seven, or a sharp sixth (not the most important aspect of Dorian IMO) and those things are significant to getting that deep powerful sound; to make it have the strong quality of the mode. Part of what makes the discussion long is folks stuck in a major/minor filter and don't see/hear the difference, ie "it's just major with a flat seventh". BTW, understanding these modes in many ways are even more central to Irish music. Ironically, some of my all time favorite tunes and least favorite tunes are not only modal, but the same tune, (basically the same melodic notes) just cast in a different idea of what modal is about.
Modal no doubt used a little loosely - Common in OT and BG is that some folks - especially banjo players - use it to refer to mean Dorian - whereas Mixolydian as above they think of as just part of major, but with a flat seventh. The terminology might be due to the tuning of the banjo - where they might play Mixolydian tunes just out of regular A, aEAC#E (or it's G equivalent), only use what they call modal tuning aEADE (or it's G equivalent) for Dorian tunes. OT fiddlers as well, Mixolydian tunes can/and are often played with the same tuning as regular A tunes, AEAE, but then would switch to standard GDAE for Dorian. Miles Krassen's OT books versions of tunes are almost entirely Dorian, except for Money Musk in the banjo book, and June Apple in the fiddle book; and French Carpenter's Yew Piney Mountain (which he put the key signature as A Dorian (2 sharps) but then proceeded to change all the C naturals to C#. The original recording can be heard at slippery-hill.)
There is an aspect of modal is less focused on the major/minor aspect; that is it's less about major/minor triads sounds. Many Dorian tunes don't put much emphasis on the minor third in really defining way (some have no third at all) - pentatonically putting emphasis on the 1 2 4 5 7 notes.
Mixolydian can be less major/minor oriented - the M3 and m7, very little focus on the M6 (as compared to major tunes) and the often strong interplay of the fifth and fourth; combine to sort of creates this ambiguity. One aspect is allows for using neutral third and sevenths. It also then allows for using the V idea - an E chord/dyad in those A Mixolydian tunes, that is not Em.
In both cases the tonic chord is often better served as a neutral dyad stack.
Then there is an aspect about modal that tends overall be less chordy, less about chord progressions - more focus on the melodic weaving linear harmonic structure - sometimes extended to the concept of - staying on a chord for longer set of beats, like on the ONE chord, even when the weight is on a flat seventh or fourth (in Mix/Dor), or a sixth in Ionian (Ionian is a mode). Staying on the ONE is apparently an incredibly complex music theory concept. (especially for guitarist equipped with a full arsenal of chords and formulas, math calculations to use) As is the concept of no 7 in the V. These are tough to explain in a concise way, to someone who has the other rules.
That slippery-hill site is full of great examples.
timfiskwa - Posted - 12/07/2013: 19:12:58
Change Keys ( modulate) within the song, tonic to VII (not Locrian). Simpler, accounts for Mixolydian tunes. Just change two sharps, or a sharp and flat, inside the tune. Same thing accounts for Dorian tunes using minor tonic keys.
C to Bb C D E F G A B C Key of C Modal, (Ionian C and Ionian Bb)
Bb C D D# F G A Bb
A to G A B C# D E F# G# A Key of A Modal, (Ionian A and Ionian G)
G A B C D E F# G ....
Same pattern D to C= D Modal and G to F = G Modal
Sorry Doug and Chickenman, I had to do it, stubborn, pigheaded fiddler that I am. Please let me know why it's wrong if it is. Now I'm gone. think I'll have a gin and Double tonic....
mad baloney - Posted - 12/08/2013: 13:09:11
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
Modal seems to be a term used by scholars to begin long winded discussions as to why the only old time fiddlers don't follow the rules of standard major and minor keys.
I completely disagree.
There's nothing fancy pants about it, when I call a tune and say it's in D it's assumed it's D major, but if I played a D dorian tune after I simply shouted "D" the person playing chords would stumble at the change and probably tsk tsk me and say "you got to tell me it's D dorian! I can't read your mind, man." after the tune was done.
Standard, basic jam ettiquette... like not starting every tune or being out of tune or something.
Also FWIW There's no such thing as "D modal" either. it's either major, minor or one of the modes. like C major, C minor, C dorian or C mixolydian. Just saying it's 'modal' means it's in a mode, but doesn't tell you which of the 5 possible modes it could be in.
ChickenMan - Posted - 12/08/2013: 14:48:10
Let me say, Humbled isn't the only one with a streak of comedic irreverence.
And I know what modes are. The, OP asked for some modal tunes and I gave several examples. Then got argument that my suggestions weren't modal according to someone other than OP. Then this thread very quickly drifted.
Forgive my irreverence. I am off to play a few modal tunes in A Mixolydian and E Dorian. :‹)
alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/08/2013: 18:13:48
It just dawned on me another way folks think about music construction; besides the jazz thing. There are devices folks use in some modern music (like pop and rock); In those there are plenty of songs that use the conventional major/minor harmonic structure of I-IV-V and I-V-vi-IV and also might incorporate standard ii and even iii and 7dim. Then they hear songs that break out of that, away from that sensibility of major/minor - and one example is a bit more whole chord movement, often all represented as major chords. An example is maybe Lynrd Skynrd's "Free Bird" The initial chord progression is G D E; F C D - and then the jam out part comes with a G Bb C chords. These are all major chords, (with possibly an exception of the E being minor). Might also hear chord progression like A major, G major, Fmajor. (and back to Gmajor or down to Emajor). Then there's devices like in Penny Lane (and lot's of Beatles songs) - which like Free Bird does have a sense of modulation out of it's initial Major key. Even songs like Tennessee Stud uses a little of this (with that F chord). Since these obviously don't conform to strict textbook major/minor framework I can see where folks might think of "modal" tunes as being just like those. and perhaps that modal means modulating and playing different scales in one tune. Might even make the whole concept of major/minor fuzzy, think of any chord change, even of basic I-IV-V as different keys/scales; and rare is a tune not in different keys.
What I believe most folks in the fiddle tune and old traditional song world speak of 'modal" is quite different than that; in many ways much simpler to grasp (as long as you don't bring the other music baggage with you, and start fresh). Again, it's not just the math of what notes are used (and that can or can't be used) nor exactly in the chords used; but how they work together in a unique and generally recognizable way (and might not be entirely strict about some notes) - it just has that sound quality. Just like most folks can readily distinguish overall quality difference between a song if in C major or A minor; once familiar can also notice D Dorian and G Mixolydian.
@ Tim - it is hard to explain to someone what they can't hear or recognize; especially when they are fixated on listening for something else. Listening to lots of trad Irish music (especially with no chords) and/or listening to OT modal playing like on that slippery-hill site, (again mostly sans chords) can give a sense of what that modal is about. But in response to your previous question, when folks are talking about the latter modal, and what to notice in listening; the A mixolydian tunes and how they use the G note; and how it is incorporated right into the tonic of A - often hearing melodic phrases that weave the high e/g/a notes in it's primary space (and not g#, nor really much emphasis on f#) and how on phrases that weave around the b and d notes, it is a c# that harmonically fits in between. Similarly in Irish Dorian tunes like A part of Road to Lisdoonvarna, and the A part of Drowsy Maggie notice how they incorporate the seventh (d note in E dorian) and how the tune doesn't really sound "minor" (and that they lack emphasis on on a minor defining g note)
mad baloney - Posted - 12/08/2013: 18:33:46
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
Let me say, Humbled isn't the only one with a streak of comedic irreverence.
And I know what modes are. The, OP asked for some modal tunes and I gave several examples. Then got argument that my suggestions weren't modal according to someone other than OP. Then this thread very quickly drifted.
Forgive my irreverence. I am off to play a few modal tunes in A Mixolydian and E Dorian. :‹)
Ahhh, 
I know what you mean, I have a dry sense of humor which throws people for a loop sometimes.
texasadam - Posted - 12/09/2013: 11:46:06
A tune that I don't see mentioned here is Old Joe Clark. It's mixolydian and always the first one I think of when I hear the term "mixolydian", probably because it was the 3rd song I learned.
The versions I know of it are in A Mixolydian. The key signature looks like A (3 sharps), but all of the Gs are natural-ed (is that even the right term?), so it might as well be D. But the chords start on an A, and end on an A, and since A is the 5th of D, it's A Mixolydian.
Dave S - Posted - 12/09/2013: 14:46:34
Not sure it's modal, but Miss Ann MacCormack has hijacked my brain over the last 2 weeks. It's the 1st tune in this medley:
youtube.com/watch?v=HINAWX4H-WI
"Scotty" Fitzgerald was one stupendous fiddler.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 12/09/2013: 20:35:30
I seem to remember Jimmy Rogers singing some modal stuff, "Blue Modal #7" or something.
Lee M - Posted - 12/10/2013: 14:45:43
Here is a photo that my wife took of me trying to figure out what I did wrong .. I managed to play my fiddle for 38 years without knowing what the heck a mixolydianlsy tune was.. I just called them modal.. Boy, was I wrong..as for those other types of tunes, well, I can't even spell them on my computer...
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Swing - Posted - 12/10/2013: 15:20:24
You guys are talking about modes, the only mode I know is a 'panic mode' does that count
Play Happy
Swing
Lee M - Posted - 12/10/2013: 16:14:52
quote:
Originally posted by Swing
You guys are talking about modes, the only mode I know is a 'panic mode' does that count
Play Happy
Swing
Yes.. I can relate to panic mode. Then, there is the two Two Hearted Ale mode and the Pie Ala Mode, and the Get The Lawn Mode... Seriously, I am just little envious of those smart Hangout members who know all of that stuff.. They are smart people and they demonstrate it often..Not a bad thing. I'm just having a little fun with them (with, hopefully) .I think that the OP just wanted some tune names...????
fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/10/2013: 18:48:54
Its ok I got a bunch of tunes and a lot of interesting discussion, what more can I ask for?
boxbow - Posted - 12/10/2013: 19:13:24
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
quote:
Originally posted by Swing
You guys are talking about modes, the only mode I know is a 'panic mode' does that count
Play Happy
Swing
Yes.. I can relate to panic mode. Then, there is the two Two Hearted Ale mode and the Pie Ala Mode, and the Get The Lawn Mode... Seriously, I am just little envious of those smart Hangout members who know all of that stuff.. They are smart people and they demonstrate it often..Not a bad thing. I'm just having a little fun with them (with, hopefully) .I think that the OP just wanted some tune names...????
Oh, stop being a stick-in-the-mode!
Lee M - Posted - 12/11/2013: 14:11:36
fiddlestuedel, now look at what you have started.. I posted your original question and some of the astute answers onto my Facebook page and basically, received the same kind of answers that you didl... It seems that here in Bloomington, Indiana we have a school of music and many of my friends have attended that school...I won't bother to post their comments about the Hangout comments, but it was very interesting.. I didn't understand a word that my friends said about 'modal' but the crux of it all was, "If you can play the tune, forget about the theory, and if you can't play the tune, the theory won't help"...I kinda' like that thought.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/11/2013: 15:10:55
I agree - listening and playing by ear trumps. And if you can play using that you probably need not bother with any music written music theory..
So in other words there's no such thing as Modal tunes; not really any such thing as a mode, including major or minor; and no such thing as "key" - It's just a bunch of notes combined together in some way to sound pretty. Different tunes use different notes. Just match the note for note what another player did; and when playing with others, just play what they play, or something that sounds pretty with it; no need to bother with names or any organization to it.
Of course this was listed under "music theory" - and think some folks get a little confused about what that means; and actually use music theory all the time.
Lee M - Posted - 12/11/2013: 15:42:28
I THINK you are saying that theory is about music, but the music is the trump card? It is possible to have theory without music but music can survive without theory.. That sounds good to me.. ( I'm speaking Very generally here.)... This reminds me of some people who I, from time to time, encounter who seem to know all about a tune, its origin, its author and history,, but after a while I realize that they themselves are not musicians.. Knowing about music academically is wonderful, but there are a lot of very accomplished musicians who are not academically inclined. Given the choice I'd like to play with people who both know the theory and can play the music, but if they know one or the other, give me the musician every time..
andrewjamesjunior - Posted - 12/14/2013: 08:44:26
Edwin Gordon talks a lot about modes (he calls them tonalities) in his Music Learning Theory. He posits that each tonality/mode has a resting tone using movable solfege with a "la" based minor. Specifically, there always remains a half step between me and fa, and ti and do.
Translating that to modes, if we are in major (=Ionian), the resting tone = DO.
If we are in Dorian, the resting tone = RE. If you keep the major scale in your head (that is, the half steps between me/fa, ti/do), then Dorian naturally falls out. A song like Shady Grove pops into my head.
re re me re re do
Shady Grove, my little love
re me fa so la
Shady grove, I know
do ti la so me do
Shady Grove, my little love
do do re me do re
I'm bound for Shady Grove.
If we are in Mixolydian, the resting tone = SO
If we are in minor, the resting tone = LA
etc...
He calls this symbolic association.
mad baloney - Posted - 12/17/2013: 18:55:22
I feel kind of cheated actually, I wasted good time and energy explaining a lot of things for free here - things that people have paid me good money to teach them. What it all boils down to is that music theory is a language and a study of music. Many people have gotten by with out any of it, but a great many more people have been helped by it. I just can't wrap my head around the idea of someone not being interested in learning what makes music tick if they are interested in making it tick.
Lee M - Posted - 12/18/2013: 05:37:50
quote:
Originally posted by mad baloney
I feel kind of cheated actually, I wasted good time and energy explaining a lot of things for free here - things that people have paid me good money to teach them. What it all boils down to is that music theory is a language and a study of music. Many people have gotten by with out any of it, but a great many more people have been helped by it. I just can't wrap my head around the idea of someone not being interested in learning what makes music tick if they are interested in making it tick.
I sincerely hope that My comments haven't added to the feeling of being cheated..The friends of mine who are well versed in theory are Much better musicians that I am and as I've stated somewhere in this thread, I am a little envious of that knowledge. The fact that some of us play at a basic level without knowing theory does not mean that we don't appreciate it. In my circle of friends it seems that guitar players have much more knowledge about theory than do my fiddler friends..
. When you say you are surprised that people are not interested in learning what makes music tick while they are interested in making it tick, is just like how I am surprised that a lot of fiddlers are not interested in learning how to properly set up their fiddle while wondering why they don't sound better...Everybody has their own area of interest.
Fiddler - Posted - 12/18/2013: 07:23:04
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
quote:
Originally posted by mad baloney
I feel kind of cheated actually, I wasted good time and energy explaining a lot of things for free here - things that people have paid me good money to teach them. What it all boils down to is that music theory is a language and a study of music. Many people have gotten by with out any of it, but a great many more people have been helped by it. I just can't wrap my head around the idea of someone not being interested in learning what makes music tick if they are interested in making it tick.
I sincerely hope that My comments haven't added to the feeling of being cheated..The friends of mine who are well versed in theory are Much better musicians that I am and as I've stated somewhere in this thread, I am a little envious of that knowledge. The fact that some of us play at a basic level without knowing theory does not mean that we don't appreciate it. In my circle of friends it seems that guitar players have much more knowledge about theory than do my fiddler friends..
. When you say you are surprised that people are not interested in learning what makes music tick while they are interested in making it tick, is just like how I am surprised that a lot of fiddlers are not interested in learning how to properly set up their fiddle while wondering why they don't sound better...Everybody has their own area of interest.
From an "experienced" player who was forced to "study" piano for 11 years as a child (and became very accomplished at "Chop Sticks" and "Heart and Saw" and nothing else!), I can say that I greatly appreciate the discussions about music theory. I picked up some tidbits of music theory while playing the mtn dulcimer, but my understanding was limited by what I needed to know at the time to play the tunes on the MD. I feel that I am at a time in my life where the theory discussions are quite meaningful for me and have helped me tremendously in my playing.
So, thanks to all who have spent the time to really learn music theory and all who have taken the time to share their knowledge with us!
I feel this is one of the great benefits and joys of FHO!
hokelore - Posted - 12/18/2013: 10:04:13
One thing I've noticed is that many people with decent theory never learned the modal aspect. I had that happen many times in a couple of bands: I'd say a tune was A mix, the reply would end up as "It has two sharps, it's in D, 3 against 1, you're out-numbered, shut up about it."
Edited by - hokelore on 12/18/2013 10:07:39
fiddlechops - Posted - 12/18/2013: 13:03:09
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
no need to bother with names or any organization to it.
I agree, many musos can work out the notes of the key after the first run through, add to the melody unison, harmony and chordal accompaniments. However, musicians acquire various levels of musicianship, thus communicating the content of a piece of music allows for the majority to participate...........''this tune is in A mixolydian with this chord progression''...OR ...''this tune is in the key of D but begins with the A chord followed by these chords''........ They mean the same thing...!?
alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/20/2013: 15:40:08
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
I THINK you are saying that theory is about music, but the music is the trump card? It is possible to have theory without music but music can survive without theory.
The second part is not quite what I was trying to say - while this discussion does involve the concept of "modal tunes" I think it might be better to post a new topic discussion more generally addressing music theory..
alaskafiddler - Posted - 12/20/2013: 16:33:45
quote:
Originally posted by Henry George
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
no need to bother with names or any organization to it.
I agree, many musos can work out the notes of the key after the first run through, add to the melody unison, harmony and chordal accompaniments. However, musicians acquire various levels of musicianship, thus communicating the content of a piece of music allows for the majority to participate...........''this tune is in A mixolydian with this chord progression''...OR ...''this tune is in the key of D but begins with the A chord followed by these chords''........ They mean the same thing...!?
I think you altered my intent by taking a snippet out of context.
Communicating musical concepts is quite useful; but more than just telling them a set of instructions.
So in your example, just directly stating the chords you want someone to play is one thing. If they have no understanding of key and mode; I would just state the chords. To attach it to key and mode is another thing. And your example, they simply don't mean the same thing. I would NOT tell folks in playing "Old Joe Clark" that it is in the key of D major starting with the A (or V) chord; no more than I would to tell them that it is in B Minor starting with the VII chord; nor that it's in E Dorian, nor G Lydian - all of which have 2 sharps. Try telling any experienced CH banjo player any of those other keys. To me, that would just confuse folks more, as it doesn't really express much as to how the music is organized.
A Mixolydian has a tonal center built around an A note; D major has a tonal center built around a D note. Each uses a slightly different set of note relations to it's tonal center, which give meaning to it and set up the idea of consonance/dissonance for the whole tune; and a feel of cadence and then resolve. As D major tune that starts with an A chord (or ends with it; is noticeably different, that of unresolved). Then to explain the use of an E major chord, IMO, mislabeling it a really just gives a fuzzy notion what "key" means, and what "mode" means; rendering those as meaningless. Again, if not addressing any useful meaning to names; then why bother with names; including terms like major or minor.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 12/20/2013 16:35:23
fiddlechops - Posted - 12/21/2013: 16:55:21
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddle
I would NOT tell folks in playing "Old Joe Clark" that it is in the key of D major starting with the A (or V) chord;
I would. If they did not understand the concept of MODE.
The 'Major' label is the most common term used for scale/key, it's the beginning point of all modes, all modes are built from it. So for people with the lack of modal conception I would state which 'Major' key this tune is related to. ''This tune begins with the E minor chord and the chord changes to a D major chord, listen for these changes, this progression is called a 'double tonic', it is very common in many genre especially Irish music. The notes in this tune are the same notes found in the D Major scale/key, it has all natural notes except play F and C sharps, the melody is derived from this key but the tonal centre is on the second note of D major, it is the note E, the home note. Beginning on this note in the KEY of D Major gives this scale/mode it's particular character just as assigning any other note from the KEY of D Major to 'home note status' will give each and every one a different character according to which note used as home note.
Lee M - Posted - 12/22/2013: 05:39:09
So,,,, Fiddlinstudel.. How long of a list do you have of tunes that are modal?
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