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fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/26/2013: 09:16:53
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quote
:
Originally posted by Tobias
She sure has talent and it's probably just a matter of taste that I don't really like her playing. I don't mean to criticize music that is is praised by so many by raining on parades.
I am just put of by comment like: "While she is widely recognized as one of the greats of old-time fiddle world."
Oldtime fiddle is many different things and really many types of esthetics. But I hear more and more of these classical players turned oldtime by way of Bruce Molsky. And while it's beautiful and expertly played music, to my ear It just doesn't have the bite that I prefer in oldtime fiddle. It seems millions of miles away from the great old field recordings.
This is fine and a matter of taste, but the problem is when it gets praised as "the best ever", and sets new standards as to what oldtime fiddle should be. Walt Koken wrote in The Oldtime Herald a few years back about this tendency at the Clifftop fiddle contest, where the older styles were being downplayed.
As explained in this article, it kind of happened to Texas fiddle when contest fiddling became a major player:
I think some of your concerns are valid. There IS a lot of variety in Old Time, and there is a danger that if any one player gets too imitated, some of that variety will be lost. Not just contest fiddling, for instance, Arthur Smith probably got too imitated (late 30's, early 40's, IIRC).
At the same time, some of it can't be helped. Ever since Suzuki violin got big, there have been a lot of people running around with SOME violin chops, and some of those people DO get turned on to Old Time through people like Bruce Molsky.
Still.... Bruce is my age, more or less, and Brittany is young. Bruce has some good things going on in his playing, and I'm glad he's passed them on to someone who can in turn pass them on.
Oh yeah.... one reason I'm fond of patterns- they give you building blocks for constructing a bowing style, and modifying it and personalizing it over time as you find other cool patterns.
Also... I think we revival fiddlers may have a somewhat artificial concept of what Old Time was actually like back in the day.
1. Ed Haley, who was a pretty good fiddler himself said something to the effect in an interview that there was a golden era of fiddling a while back and the standards were very high. Much of the source material revival fiddlers work from was recorded from older fiddlers whose playing had decayed. Some had physical conditions like Parkinson's, some were arthritic and playing in pain, others were just weak, some hadn't played in years until the collector got a fiddle they could play. The rough rustic quality has a charm to it, but it's not really representative of what they were like in their prime. I myself stopped playing for 15 years, and I can testify that your playing level can drop a LOT when you neglect it that long. I can also testify that as you get older, you just don't have the energy for nearly as long practice sessions! Also, there were 3 fiddlers I got to hear in the 1970's when they were in their fifties. I've come across recent recordings of them, and... time has not been kind. The thing about such older fiddlers is that in a way, they make less intimidating role models than a 50-year old fiddler in his prime.
Tommy Jarrell was an influential fiddler for a number of reasons. One reason is that he managed to retain his bowing energy well into his 70's. But even with him.... maybe he was even a much better fiddler when he was 25! Maybe he even had SWEET TONE!!!II know, I know.... it boggles the mind just to think about it! But I heard him in the 70's when he was in his 70's, and to my ear, his tone was noticeably better then, than some of the recordings I've heard since made when he was in his eighties!
2. I know a fellow from West Virginia who played some Old Time fiddle when he was younger. I asked him if my playing was getting too smooth to be Old Time, and he laughed and said that one thing he remembers from the fiddlers he grew up around was that they ALWAYS played their best. In other words, they weren't TRYING to sound rustic!!! And, BTW, this fellow from West Virginia... he REALLY LIKES Bruce Molsky's fiddling!! (BTW... if you listen to my recordings you may laugh at my question.... but I really don't record well! I DO get recording jitters!
)
3. Bruce Molsky sometimes uses what I call "intentional roughness" with the bow. From some recordings it's obvious that he can't get as smooth as butter when he wants to, but that most Old Time tunes call for a slightly rough, vigorous, bowing approach. When a player is using "intentional roughness" it has a different quality than when a lesser fiddler gets the roughness as a by-product of a lack of skill. The intentional roughness tends to come out on the accented notes, and the unaccented notes still often have a sweet quality.... and I like that contrast- sort of "sweet and sour" bowing tone! And actually, if you listen to some of the violin greats, and some great players from other genres... you sometimes encounter "intentional roughness". Yitzhak Perlman, for one. Jean Carignan, the great Quebecois fiddler. Some Sligo fiddlers can be pretty agressive... like the fiddlers in Altan!
However, bowing is an expression of who we are.... our personality, and perhaps even our gender to some degree. Lots of lady Old Time fiddlers sound... well... feminine! Intentional roughness doesn't occur AS MUCH.... however, Heidi Clare can DEFINITELY do it!!!
I do think people coming into Old Time fiddling should be aware that in Old Time, it's not like classical where you always want to sound like the great violinists.... it's more like blues, where you steal a lick here, steal a lick there until you come up with your own sound.
(See the analogy with the bowing licks.... learn a pattern here, learn a lick there, until you come up with your own individual take on Old Time)
Stevie Ray Vaughan, was a great blues guitarist, and I love to listen to his stuff.... but I don't necessarily want to SOUND like him when I play electric guitar.... I want to sound like ME! One time at a blues jam, this kid showed up with his Stevie Ray Vaughan hat, and his Stevie Ray Vaughan Stratocaster guitar, and his Stevie Ray Vaughan vest (I can't remember if he could muster the Stevie Ray Vaughan "soul patch", but I'm pretty sure he was TRYING!), and I think all of us old guys were chuckling inwardly about the phase the kid was going through!
I don't necessarily think that kind of imitation phase is all bad... it can inspire you to learn some things REALLY well.
But in this age of recordings, you are also competing with the recordings of the person you're imitating... even if they are gone, like Stevie Ray Vaughan! If you sound exactly like them, why shouldn't someone just buy the "real thing"?
However.... sometimes in the tradition, you got quite a bit of imitation going on.
From the YouTube video, it sounds like John Summers must have played a LOT like his dad, since his dad instructed him VERY carefully.
If you watch the Earl Collins film by Bess Lomax Hawes, in the interviews, it's obvious that the man DEARLY loved his father, and his musical ambition was to play JUST LIKE HIS DAD. My guess (since we don't have recordings of his father) is that he succeeded.
Genevieve Harrison can match her dad's bowing stroke for stroke.... you can see it in one video. I'm glad she's carrying on her dad's playing!
So.... maybe we can just think of Brittany Haas (and Matt Brown) as Bruce Molsky's adoptive fiddling kids!
Another aspect is whether you are playing more to please other Old Time musicians, or outsiders. I think it's good to do both.
Clearly, Bruce Molsky plays in a way that gets Old Time fiddling respect from good musicians outside the tradition, and yet, he's also making outsiders aware of Old Time fiddling greats like Uncle Bunt Stephens (see the recent video someone posted of Bruce playing Candy Girl).
Out here in my part of California.... there's not much Old Time around.... if I didn't play for outsiders, I wouldn't play for ANYBODY! And when I play in public, I know I have to meet a certain acceptable minimum of tone and intonation, even for non-musicians.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/26/2013 09:37:17
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/26/2013: 18:29:01
quote:
Originally posted by DeamhanFola
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
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oughness". Yitzhak Perlman, for one. Jean Carignan, the great Quebecois fiddler. Some Sligo fiddlers can be pretty agressive... like the fiddlers in Altan!
Irish traditional music police here. License and registration please. Do you know why I pulled you over today, sir?
Altan's fiddler's are Donegal born & bred, and their music definitely shows it. While certainly Sligo style is indeed generally quick, it's very different than stereotypical Donegal fiddling. Whereas stereotypical Sligo-style in the past has been described as more 'rounded' (mixture of rolls & trebling, lots of slurs), stereotypical Donegal pure-drop favours bowed triplets, uses much less slurring, and definitely is played fast. In fact, early/mid 20th-century Irish music organisations sadly had very real prejudices against Donegal music as being 'not Irish' enough for their purposes due to its rough approach (and borrowings from Scottish music). These days, regional boundaries are perhaps more permeable than they once were, but fiddlers like Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh are very self-consciously Donegal in their approach and proud of it.
I'm letting you off with a warning: listen to Michael Colemen, James Morrison, and Andy McGann (Sligo) and contrast them with the likes of James Byrne, Vincent Campbell and John Doherty.
Have a nice day, sir.
LOL!!!!
Yessir! I'll be more careful sir!
Thanks for the warning!
(I have to say.... when you to the Irish Trad Police thing, you do it with class- the Garda would be proud!)
However.... er.... um....
You mispelled Michael Coleman's last name....
Spelling Police here, you see!
DeamhanFola - Posted - 08/27/2013: 07:16:50
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
(I have to say.... when you to the Irish Trad Police thing, you do it with class- the Garda would be proud!)
However.... er.... um....
You mispelled Michael Coleman's last name....
Spelling Police here, you see!
Ha! Fair enough--that's what I get for posting without reading it first. I see now that I also put in an unneeded apostrophe too, so as usual, take what I have to say with a grain of salt. But it is the Internet, and I thought we decommissioned all of the grammar rules as part of the peace process. At least my Gaeilge lecturer would be proud I didn't forget the accents in the Irish stuff. Hammered in a bit harder, maybe.
Having only lived in the North of Ireland, I haven't had a great deal of contact with the Gardaí (a couple ill-fated pub lock-ins aside) but the (then) RUC and Army were another matter! 
But, my Irish trad pickiness aside, I always enjoy your posts Pogo and take away a lot from them.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/29/2013: 21:08:08
quote:
Originally posted by DeamhanFola
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I looked up Sligo and Donegal on Google Maps yesterday. (or was it the day before?)
Donegal = to the west of Northern Ireland = home of Altan and Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh
Sligo = to the south of Donegal = home of the late Michael Coleman.
I THINK I've got that imprinted into my brain... but with 61 year old brains you never know!
Hmmm... ill-fated pub lock-ins??? That sounds pretty drastic! Do you dare share about THAT???
Can't be TOO ill-fated if you're around to write about it.
I'll start a new thread on the lock-ins--I've sidetracked this one enough!
But I'll definitely say that all genres do have their police: ask some sectors of the bluegrass community what they think of Nickel Creek (or the cello in Crooked Still) only if you have an unobstructed point of egress in your line of sight!
As for me, I think Brittany Hass is amazing, and I love her use of her 5-string Silakowski fiddle (again, another thing that is/was sometimes banned in fiddle competitions, etc).
Tsk, tsk.... you DO have a thing about misspelling fiddlers' last names- that's Brittany Haas, not Hass.
Let me guess.... you did that DELIBERATELY to bait my inner spelling cop!!!
Of course, I WOULD notice that, because I majored in German (not a very useful degree in California, let me tell you...) and "Hass" is German for hatred!!! And also the name of a popular variety of avocado we grow a lot of here in California.
Yes, Nickel Creek, Crooked Still, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about.... city-pickers generally get tolerated pretty well if they're conservative, but when they go to innovating like that.... WELL!!!!!!
Of course, that kind of innovating is exactly the kind of thing that seems to attract the attention of younger people.... urban young people anyway.
Cellos.... INDEED!!! What will they think of blending with Bluegrass next- BASSOONS????
DeamhanFola - Posted - 08/30/2013: 07:37:10
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by DeamhanFola
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I looked up Sligo and Donegal on Google Maps yesterday. (or was it the day before?)
Donegal = to the west of Northern Ireland = home of Altan and Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh
Sligo = to the south of Donegal = home of the late Michael Coleman.
I THINK I've got that imprinted into my brain... but with 61 year old brains you never know!
Hmmm... ill-fated pub lock-ins??? That sounds pretty drastic! Do you dare share about THAT???
Can't be TOO ill-fated if you're around to write about it.
I'll start a new thread on the lock-ins--I've sidetracked this one enough!
But I'll definitely say that all genres do have their police: ask some sectors of the bluegrass community what they think of Nickel Creek (or the cello in Crooked Still) only if you have an unobstructed point of egress in your line of sight!
As for me, I think Brittany Hass is amazing, and I love her use of her 5-string Silakowski fiddle (again, another thing that is/was sometimes banned in fiddle competitions, etc).
Tsk, tsk.... you DO have a thing about misspelling fiddlers' last names
Let me guess.... you did that DELIBERATELY to bait my inner spelling cop!!!
Of course, I WOULD notice that, because I majored in German (not a very useful degree in California, let me tell you...) and "Hass" is German for hatred!!! And also the name of a popular variety of avocado we grow a lot of here in California.
Yes, Nickel Creek, Crooked Still, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about.... city-pickers generally get tolerated pretty well if they're conservative, but when they go to innovating like that.... WELL!!!!!!
Of course, that kind of innovating is exactly the kind of thing that seems to attract the attention of younger people.... urban young people anyway.
Cellos.... INDEED!!! What will they think of blending with Bluegrass next- BASSOONS????
No partial credit for spelling 'Silakowski' correctly? Sheesh, what are you, a lecturer in Gaeilge?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/31/2013: 12:44:06
quote:
Originally posted by DeamhanFola
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by DeamhanFola
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I looked up Sligo and Donegal on Google Maps yesterday. (or was it the day before?)
Donegal = to the west of Northern Ireland = home of Altan and Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh
Sligo = to the south of Donegal = home of the late Michael Coleman.
I THINK I've got that imprinted into my brain... but with 61 year old brains you never know!
Hmmm... ill-fated pub lock-ins??? That sounds pretty drastic! Do you dare share about THAT???
Can't be TOO ill-fated if you're around to write about it.
I'll start a new thread on the lock-ins--I've sidetracked this one enough!
But I'll definitely say that all genres do have their police: ask some sectors of the bluegrass community what they think of Nickel Creek (or the cello in Crooked Still) only if you have an unobstructed point of egress in your line of sight!
As for me, I think Brittany Hass is amazing, and I love her use of her 5-string Silakowski fiddle (again, another thing that is/was sometimes banned in fiddle competitions, etc).
Tsk, tsk.... you DO have a thing about misspelling fiddlers' last names
Let me guess.... you did that DELIBERATELY to bait my inner spelling cop!!!
Of course, I WOULD notice that, because I majored in German (not a very useful degree in California, let me tell you...) and "Hass" is German for hatred!!! And also the name of a popular variety of avocado we grow a lot of here in California.
Yes, Nickel Creek, Crooked Still, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about.... city-pickers generally get tolerated pretty well if they're conservative, but when they go to innovating like that.... WELL!!!!!!
Of course, that kind of innovating is exactly the kind of thing that seems to attract the attention of younger people.... urban young people anyway.
Cellos.... INDEED!!! What will they think of blending with Bluegrass next- BASSOONS????
No partial credit for spelling 'Silakowski' correctly? Sheesh, what are you, a lecturer in Gaeilge?
Actually, I'm only playing at being ENGLISH grammar police with you, as a "turn about is fair play" kind of humor.
Getting picky with people's spelling.... well, there IS the 15 minute editing limit, and we ALL get caught by it.... I know I do!
So... we all live in "glass houses" here... and shouldn't throw stones about spelling errors. Actually though, the spelling of names IS one place where I do correct, because it could lead to confusion if people were to go do a search on the mispelled name. (There is an auto correct, but I'm not sure I'd want to trust it completely)
Actually.... I'm surprised you didn't catch them.... but there were a couple of errors in the post where I "busted" you!
(Shouldn't I have said "The Gardai would be proud?")
Gaelic is a bit daunting, to say the least. I've studied German (major) French (one class short of a minor- the instructor for the required class drove me batty!) and can communicate on a level in Spanish (live in California) and Swedish (wife is a Swedish citizen).
The thing is, all of those are far more phonetic than English, which is messily unphonetic. (French does have a lot of silent letters, but there actually ARE predictable rules about that, unlike with English!)
But with Gaelic.... the spelling and the spoken language diverge EVEN MORE than in English- so much that it seems that neither would help much with the other.... it would be like learning two distinct but related languages at once (say, Norwegian and Swedish)... or like learning Shakespearian English and Modern English at the same time.
When I'm faced with a written Gaelic name.... the cut and paste function SURE is HANDY!!!!
That being said, I LOVE the sound of spoken Gaelic- I actually enjoy those IRT videos that are at least partly in Gaelic with English subtitles!
Not that I can understand anything except when they get to a proper name!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/31/2013 12:48:15
DeamhanFola - Posted - 08/31/2013: 14:12:30
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Actually, I'm only playing at being ENGLISH grammar police with you, as a "turn about is fair play" kind of humor.
Getting picky with people's spelling.... well, there IS the 15 minute editing limit, and we ALL get caught by it.... I know I do!
So... we all live in "glass houses" here... and shouldn't throw stones about spelling errors. Actually though, the spelling of names IS one place where I do correct, because it could lead to confusion if people were to go do a search on the mispelled name. (There is an auto correct, but I'm not sure I'd want to trust it completely)
Actually.... I'm surprised you didn't catch them.... but there were a couple of errors in the post where I "busted" you!
(Shouldn't I have said "The Gardai would be proud?")
Gaelic is a bit daunting, to say the least. I've studied German (major) French (one class short of a minor- the instructor for the required class drove me batty!) and can communicate on a level in Spanish (live in California) and Swedish (wife is a Swedish citizen).
The thing is, all of those are far more phonetic than English, which is messily unphonetic. (French does have a lot of silent letters, but there actually ARE predictable rules about that, unlike with English!)
But with Gaelic.... the spelling and the spoken language diverge EVEN MORE than in English- so much that it seems that neither would help much with the other.... it would be like learning two distinct but related languages at once (say, Norwegian and Swedish)... or like learning Shakespearian English and Modern English at the same time.
When I'm faced with a written Gaelic name.... the cut and paste function SURE is HANDY!!!!
That being said, I LOVE the sound of spoken Gaelic- I actually enjoy those IRT videos that are at least partly in Gaelic with English subtitles!
Not that I can understand anything except when they get to a proper name!
There was a joke that circulated among the Irish Studies students at my university about one of the (very precise and particular) lecturers and his brother (who was not a lecturer, but who is / was a pretty big name in the Irish trad music community & had similarly particular views):
Seán and Gearóid [names changed to protect the picky] were on holiday in Australia, paddling a canoe down a river. Seán is lazily dangling his fingers in the water, when suddenly, something grabs hold of him and pulls him under. The water boils and foams, and goes red with blood, but after a few seconds a badly-wounded Seán claws his way back into the canoe.
Seán: 'Gearóid, an alligator just bit off me arm! Get me a tourniquet'!
Gearóid: 'No,Seán, that was a crocodile that bit your arm off.'
Edited by - DeamhanFola on 08/31/2013 14:18:43
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/31/2013: 15:06:16
quote:
Originally posted by blgrssr
I remember hearing that Bill Monroe despised the dobro. To his dying day he would not play with one. When flatt and scruggs broke away, their first new band member ? A dobro!
one more observation, I just never could listen to one nickel creek song in its entirety, not one. I really try, I do. I have tried so hard to not hit the fast forward button, I just can't stop myself. It's like Homer Simpson at the donut table.So i guess there is a little police action in bluegrass.
Can you imagine Benny Martin showing up at an irish jam and showing off his chops?? That would be worth the price of admission!
You got me curious. I just went to YouTube and clicked on a Nickel Creek video. I don't understand how ANYONE could call them Bluegrass!!!!
Yes, the instrumentation is similar, but that's all. Pop music for people who are tired of synthesizers!
That being said, I didn't get the click-off reaction that you did, maybe because after the first couple of notes, all I expected was fairly pleasant (but rather bland) acoustic pop with a mandolin and a violin. There are FAR more unpleasant things on YouTube!
Having experienced big city traffic jams, I think such soothing innocuous music has a place. Probably prevents road rage in some people!
But if you're looking for excitement, I'd look elsewhere!
You could easily add a flute to the Nickel Creek sound (and I don't mean Irish flute... just plain ol' orchestral style) and it would fit perfectly with the soothing vibe.
I just listened to a Punch Brothers video.... Chris Thiles' successor band to Nickel Creek.
youtube.com/watch?v=SxaPbOEm070
I've got bad news, for Bluegrass fans at least:
People have discovered that the basic Bluegrass instrumentation is SO versatile.... that you can use if for a LOT of other genres of music besides Bluegrass.
When you see a bass, two electric guitars, and drums, what kind of music do you expect? At one time, say about 1960, you would have expected rhythm and blues or early rock and roll. NOW, you expect almost anything- as people experimented, the musical range expanded in an astonishing way.
And this is what is happening with the bluegrass instrumentation. The thing is, people need to STOP calling it bluegrass, just because the instruments are the same.... there may not be a speck of actual Bluegrass music in it.
Like in the above Punch Brothers video.... I don't hear a SPECK of anything that could be remotely construed as any kind of country music AT ALL.
To me, it's not the music that is objectionable.... it's just the confusion... it really needs another name so no false expectations are created...
Since the "Newgrass" term is already taken.... it could be called NeoGrass. Same idea, but a different generation giving it a very different flavor.
Or Popgrass.
Or:
TryingVeryHardNotToBeGrassy!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/31/2013: 15:24:14
quote:
Originally posted by DeamhanFola
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Actually, I'm only playing at being ENGLISH grammar police with you, as a "turn about is fair play" kind of humor.
Getting picky with people's spelling.... well, there IS the 15 minute editing limit, and we ALL get caught by it.... I know I do!
So... we all live in "glass houses" here... and shouldn't throw stones about spelling errors. Actually though, the spelling of names IS one place where I do correct, because it could lead to confusion if people were to go do a search on the mispelled name. (There is an auto correct, but I'm not sure I'd want to trust it completely)
Actually.... I'm surprised you didn't catch them.... but there were a couple of errors in the post where I "busted" you!
(Shouldn't I have said "The Gardai would be proud?")
Gaelic is a bit daunting, to say the least. I've studied German (major) French (one class short of a minor- the instructor for the required class drove me batty!) and can communicate on a level in Spanish (live in California) and Swedish (wife is a Swedish citizen).
The thing is, all of those are far more phonetic than English, which is messily unphonetic. (French does have a lot of silent letters, but there actually ARE predictable rules about that, unlike with English!)
But with Gaelic.... the spelling and the spoken language diverge EVEN MORE than in English- so much that it seems that neither would help much with the other.... it would be like learning two distinct but related languages at once (say, Norwegian and Swedish)... or like learning Shakespearian English and Modern English at the same time.
When I'm faced with a written Gaelic name.... the cut and paste function SURE is HANDY!!!!
That being said, I LOVE the sound of spoken Gaelic- I actually enjoy those IRT videos that are at least partly in Gaelic with English subtitles!
Not that I can understand anything except when they get to a proper name!
There was a joke that circulated among the Irish Studies students at my university about one of the (very precise and particular) lecturers and his brother (who was not a lecturer, but who is / was a pretty big name in the Irish trad music community & had similarly particular views):
Seán and Gearóid [names changed to protect the picky] were on holiday in Australia, paddling a canoe down a river. Seán is lazily dangling his fingers in the water, when suddenly, something grabs hold of him and pulls him under. The water boils and foams, and goes red with blood, but after a few seconds a badly-wounded Seán claws his way back into the canoe.
Seán: 'Gearóid, an alligator just bit off me arm! Get me a tourniquet'!
Gearóid: 'No,Seán, that was a crocodile that bit your arm off.'
That's either very funny in a grim sort of way, or very grim in a funny sort of way!
I guess that's another way of saying those brothers are TERMINALLY PICKY!
Which, now that I think of it, seems to be a common affliction whenever people are trying to revive or preserve something, be it a language or a genre of music.
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