blgrssr - Posted - 07/30/2013:  08:16:07

my local jam used to only play in g,a,c, or d. That was great. If i was the King and Emperor of All Bluegrass i would decree that the law of the land. But lately they have started to throw the key of B at me. Personally , i think it should be illegal. Any tricks to playing in b??? Is it similiar to a normal key??? I want to learn to improvise there without spending hours and hours practicing inthat key.

Swing - Posted - 07/30/2013:  08:22:46

Use your first finger as a bar across the A and E strings at the B on the A string and play from there. You will use your little finger quite a bit but it works well... in that position you can start Kenny Baker's version of Dry and Dusty in the Key of E.    

Play Happy

Swing

FireandAir - Posted - 07/30/2013:  08:55:28

Can you get another fiddle and tune it a half-step flat?

boxbow - Posted - 07/30/2013:  09:01:13

Use a piano.  Those black keys are handy.  Tough to fit in a fiddle case, though.

The G# on the G string and the D# on the D string are perfectly manageable, but that shift from A# to Bnat on the A string just kills me.  It requires practice time that I'm unwilling to spend.  I have the equivalent problem in E when I shift from D# to E on the D string.

Bb isn't such a bad key to play in standard and actually sees some use in rags and hornpipes.  Tune your fiddle up a half-step and you're in B.  Or tune down a half-step and play out of C, which I continue to struggle with.  Don't know why, it just messes with me.

Or give your bandmates capos.  There, that oughta do it.

SamY - Posted - 07/30/2013:  09:40:44

Other than lots of practice, I'm afraid another fiddle tuned up or down is the only solution (unless you can successfully decree key of B illegal).  Or quickly re-tune your main fiddle.  I haven't tried to see how quickly that can be done.  We need a fiddle capo of some sort, but I've never seen one.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/30/2013:  09:59:31

My sympathies.

I feel about the same way.

However, if you rotate around the circle of fifths to learn keys, and learn to play in A really well, then bump it over a string, then learn to play in E really well, then if you learn to play in E really well, then you bump it over a string, and you learn to play in B.  Every successive key learned that way only requires one string's worth of new fingerings, and that's DOABLE.  That's my theory anyway.... it's worked for a lot of keys, but I'm still working on A (not my favorite key, believe it or not) and I don't know any fiddle tunes in E.  I think Limerock is in E, but that one's HARD.... we need some easy fiddle tunes in EVERY key!

I have also been known to bring a second fiddle to a jam tuned down a half-step , and play in C for B, and F for E.

One trick that's helped me with some keys- is to play a lot in the relative minor key- I only know one fiddle tune in Bb, but there are loads of Eastern European and klezmer tunes that are MEANT for G minor!  Somehow it's easier for me to hear the right intonation in a minor key, get the intonation somewhat honed in, THEN try to use the same scale as a major scale by resolving on the different appropriate note.

Some years back someone suggested noodling against drones in a new key- there are CD recordings with such, but you can also tape down the white keys to a cheap keyboard synth for a drone.... well, for the difficult keys you'd need to use the transpose function, then tape the keys down.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 07/30/2013:  10:09:05

Swing is right . Plant your index finger and hold on for dear life. In the key of B , or any other really, as long as you aare covering the I and V notes and have a string "underneath" . The four / IV chord can be reached with your ring finger while holding down the B note and adding a G note on the D string. THe five / V chord can be reached keeping your index finger on the F# and adding the C# on the A string . If you get adventurous ,since a violin is tuned in fifths, the IV chord and closed scale is a shift of one string onto the A and D strings on the E and B notes and the V chord and closed scale are only a whole step sharp from the E and B notes To the F# and C# notes. THe relative minor and two chord are close as well. This probably feels like TMI but it is what I do when a song is introduced with a " I play this in E with the capo on third fret, whatever that is...lol. Again like Swing said it makes you work your Pinkie but all in all it's good for those keys what ails ya.........R/

Mobob - Posted - 07/30/2013:  10:21:57

As suggested, use your index finger to note the root B note on the A string and the F# on the E string. Your index finger is now replacing the nut in the scale. If you really want to figure this out and train your left hand, work on playing the same tunes in A without using your index finger, then slide up a step and use your index finger to replace the nut, Its hard, but it will have you playing all you wish in B natural.

FireandAir - Posted - 07/30/2013:  11:54:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

One trick that's helped me with some keys- is to play a lot in the relative minor key- I only know one fiddle tune in Bb, but there are loads of Eastern European and klezmer tunes that are MEANT for G minor!  Somehow it's easier for me to hear the right intonation in a minor key, get the intonation somewhat honed in, THEN try to use the same scale as a major scale by resolving on the different appropriate note.

---

+1,000,000

wooliver - Posted - 07/30/2013:  12:02:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

 

Swing is right . Plant your index finger and hold on for dear life.

---

Yep. With my index finger "capo" i don't care if they play in the key of H, i'm ready.

irfiddler - Posted - 07/30/2013:  12:42:09

When they reach a certain level, Bluegrass fiddlers are expected to be able to play in the key that suits the vocalist's voice. B, B flat, and C show up frequently. In some jams, the seasoned players are understanding for beginners though and will try to help you out. and change to an easier key for you if they can without straining their voices. I was surprised when I first started playing with singers years ago and discovered how hard it can sometimes be for them to change keys just to accomodate us because we can only play in certain keys.



When I very first started in bluegrass I thought it was all about the fiddler LOL After all, in Oldtime, isn't the fiddler KIng? HA!!! Not in Bluegrass - unless it's a bluegrass instrumental. Then we shine.



So if you go to a jam year after year and say - I can only play in G,D,A,, you'll limit yourself and the number of people who will want to play with you. And that might be OK with you. But If you want to run with the big dogs that's just the way it is.



The tricks mentioned in the posts above by Swing and others are very helpful. Megan Lynch (Fiddlestar) also has some great tips on transferring breaks from one key to any key. It's a matter of learning to play in closed positions. No open strings.



I've never seen a bluegrass fiddler retune - perhaps they do - but it's done very surreptitiously if they do. I would be interested to hear about it if it's commonly done these days. It would sure make it a lot easier - but all that retuning would be hard on the fiddle I would think. That's one of the big differences between bliegrass fiddling and oldtime fiddling where we usually stay in one key for a number of tunes to accomodate the banjo.player, and mostly play in D, A, G, Am,  Em. and in first position.



Bluegrass instrumentals though are most often played in a certain key though I've seen bluegrass banjo players want to switch keys from time to time. Usually we try to stick to our guns and tell them - that's not the key we play it in. It seems to work most of the time:-) For example, in our area, Bill Cheatham is commonly played in A, Gold Rush is played in A and so on....



Always a very interesting subject Blgrssr, and we never stop learning from each other - thanks for posting

 

Edited by - irfiddler on 07/30/2013 12:44:56

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/30/2013:  13:33:30

The first finger capo works like swing mentions pretty well for improvising breaks. One way of thinking about it, or an initial approach is playing like playing A tunes on the lower octave (G and D strings in standard tuning); the same fingering moved up to the A and E strings is playing in B. You can use that as the basis as one of the moveable closed fingering, (that is not using any open strings), and you can move it any where up the fingerboard. The advantage of the upper strings is it can easily extend down. It helps to not worry about the full string range over two and half octaves, rather just focus on a range of one and a half. (going lower gets a bit trickier) It is much like playing tunes in the key of A, that have a range of lower E (on D string) to higher A; just shifting the fingers so the first finger becomes the nut (open string) and the second third and fourth do the work of the first, second, third respectively. The fingering over that range is not difficult. A good practice is to start with just the pentatonic space, and play A tunes that only cover that octave and a half; like Liza Jane, Waterbound, Sally Goodin. That closed octave and a half fingering is very moveable. There are some other moveable closed fingerings that work pretty well too, but I think that one is the easiest to get.

Good point was made about bluegrass and keys; generally playing in these other keys is playing breaks for songs (for the singers convenience); and songs usually have a simpler melodic line that fiddle tunes. Knowing the pentatonic fingering can cover quite a bit of breaks; but you probably want to eventually expand that to full scale, if not all the chromatic fingering. Fiddle tunes are generally designed to play in a specific key, take advantage of the strengths of fingering and string crossing layout, and often incorporate open strings, and bowing of such; so not easy to transfer any odd key. Even some tunes in keys of F, Bb and E are designed to take advantage, create a unique quality of the fingering/strings/bowing. IMO, there is no reason to try to actually master any fiddle tunes in just any key, or closed fingering.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 07/30/2013 13:50:43

wooliver - Posted - 07/30/2013:  14:16:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

  there is no reason to try to actually master any fiddle tunes in just any key, or closed fingering.

---

Well, there is a little reason, to play something like Redhaired Boy in Bb, because you're familiar with the tune as it relates to itself. It would be jambuster, but it's good practice. There's no reason the just shuffle the I, IV, and V chords (double stops) if you can get the melody too. BTW lots of Country and Johnny Cash tunes are in E too. If you can play both C&W and Bluegrass, you can double your income!

irfiddler - Posted - 07/30/2013:  15:42:21

Yes, a Bluegrass instrumental is commonly played in a certain key and you are safe to learn it in that one key. The majority are in easy keys for the fiddle.

(Some bluegrass instrumentals are fiddle tunes - some are specifically written for bluegrass banjo)

blgrssr - Posted - 07/30/2013:  20:23:09

i just dont like b. (or e) tx for all the tips. I will try. I guess just not playing out of principle is an option. I'm not doing this for money. Its supposed to b fun, right??? But tx for the tips.

irfiddler - Posted - 07/30/2013:  23:35:03

Blgrsser, As you say, you can just play what you're comfortable with and have fun. When the jam leader looks your way - you can decline if you're not ready. No big deal - people do it all the time at jams. .There's plenty of tunes and songs in the easier keys that you can play. The exciting part is that as you go along, you 'll have major breakthroughs every so often.

Until recently, It took fiddlers much longer to piece together the information you've been given just in this thread. We had to go to a lot of workshops and fiddle camps to learn these shortcuts. I learned one of the last pieces of the puzzle at an adult bluegrass bootcamp taught by Megan Lynch maybe 5 years ago.

Sue B. - Posted - 08/01/2013:  06:20:13

It's helpful in key of B to know that the third step (low D#) can be played with 4th finger extended on G or 1st finger back on D. Same two-locations idea available for the low C#, G# on the D, D# on the A, A# on the E.

JHDuncan - Posted - 08/01/2013:  12:15:24

If you want to play grass, you are going to have to learn how to play in B. Play the B major scale, ALOT, to get familiar with all the fingerings. Learn common double stops in B, E and F#.

It's a big part of the genre.

Swamplunker - Posted - 08/25/2013:  08:17:53

Fire and Air nailed it on the first shot. Tune every string down just one half step and play as if you are in the key of C. Not only will you have better intonation than those folks trying to hold their first finger down while everything else creeps upward, you'll be all over the place with the additional advantage of open strings while they're desperately trying to hold the fort in the root position.I played with a singer who had a lot of stuff in the key of B that's how I found out. Rise to meet a challenge, but do it in a smart way.

irfiddler - Posted - 08/25/2013:  11:10:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swamplunker

 

Fire and Air nailed it on the first shot. Tune every string down just one half step and play as if you are in the key of C. Not only will you have better intonation than those folks trying to hold their first finger down while everything else creeps upward, you'll be all over the place with the additional advantage of open strings while they're desperately trying to hold the fort in the root position.I played with a singer who had a lot of stuff in the key of B that's how I found out. Rise to meet a challenge, but do it in a smart way.

---

Swamplunker - that's an interesting idea that's been floated before and I'm sure  more than a few fiddlers use that method. 

You probably already know that not everyone will agree with you - for various reasons.    But......would you mind sharing any other shortcuts you use when you are asked to play in " more difficult"  keys? I have often thought that a chart would be very helpful.  - similar to the chart guitarists use to help them capo.

This could get very interesting

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/25/2013:  14:40:53

The problem with tuning everything down a half step  - at least in the context of playing in a situation where the vocalist gets unilateral decision making as to the key; you theoretically have to play in ALL keys; as the singer lacks the musical command of their instrument (voice) to sing that particular song in any other key than one. Say one song is in B, another is in G another in F, another in D, another in C; so the tuned down fiddle would have to then either play in the fingered Ab, Gb Eb and Db respectively; or  re-tune between each song; or use at least 3 fiddles and swap around (not particularly a great way IMO) - Really in this context of playing with those singers, it's all about the singer, (not the group of musicians), you pretty much have to have higher skill than the singer and ability play in every key.

Of course the other option to just not play in that context, instead play with singers who can account for what works for the group of musicians (the fiddler is not demanded to have higher skills than the singer). Group negotiates key. A lot of good bluegrass can be done in just just g, c, a, and d.

OTJunky - Posted - 08/25/2013:  14:52:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

 A lot of good bluegrass can be done in just just g, c, a, and d.

---

Most of it actually...

--OTJ

oldtimestrings - Posted - 08/25/2013:  15:53:49

Tips and techniques are great. Shortcuts are not, IMO. I disagree with the "tune down a half step" advice. A lot of bluegrass is played in B and B-flat, and a bluegrass fiddler should know how to play in those keys. Tuning a fiddle down will get you into the target key, but it still won't sound "right," in the sense that you still won't sound like an accomplished bluegrass fiddler playing in B or B-flat.

Use the advice above with respect to the first finger acting as a kind of capo, planted on the B and F-sharp of the upper two strings. That's the right approach--not a shortcut, but an approach to a technical challenge. Use that approach and then practice, practice, practice. There's no substitute for it.

GeeDubya - Posted - 08/25/2013:  16:42:42

Change name from blgssr to oldtymmr. Won't have to worry about those situations.

FireandAir - Posted - 08/25/2013:  17:30:59

I'd still tune down -- but I'd reserve a separate fiddle for it.  Lots of people have one for "typical" classical stuff, and another tuned flat for Baroque anyhow.

Nevertheless, I'd still approach it as fiddlepogo recommended: play a lot in Gm, and just readjust to the new tonic.

irfiddler - Posted - 08/25/2013:  17:43:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

The problem with tuning everything down a half step  - at least in the context of playing in a situation where the vocalist gets unilateral decision making as to the key; you theoretically have to play in ALL keys; as the singer lacks the musical command of their instrument (voice) to sing that particular song in any other key than one. Say one song is in B, another is in G another in F, another in D, another in C; so the tuned down fiddle would have to then either play in the fingered Ab, Gb Eb and Db respectively; or  re-tune between each song; or use at least 3 fiddles and swap around (not particularly a great way IMO) - Really in this context of playing with those singers, it's all about the singer, (not the group of musicians), you pretty much have to have higher skill than the singer and ability play in every key.

Of course the other option to just not play in that context, instead play with singers who can account for what works for the group of musicians (the fiddler is not demanded to have higher skills than the singer). Group negotiates key. A lot of good bluegrass can be done in just just g, c, a, and d.

---

It depends what your goal is  as a bluegrass fiddler. No one said it was easy.

Many  fiddlers would be perfectly ok with playing with a laid back group who plays everything in G,C,D and A  forever - if  they have been invited into one that is.   In fact, I've run into  fiddlers  who want to play everything in D,G or A,  Forget about C!  I've also run into singers who sing every song in A. After the 10th song that gets old too.

But, it's been my experience that  If a fiddler wants to run with the big dogs, they have to play by their rules. And the rules in everything but slo jam groups that I have ever heard of are that the singer chooses the key.  I have been told this at countless fiddle camps and workshops. Now, some kind hearted guitarist/singers will try hard to accommodate us,   or maybe they actually do like to sing in G,D, C or A. I've run across a lot of those kindly old gents with guitars in the past and have been very grateful that they would help me along.

Reluctantly, I came to the conclusion years ago that I would just have to learn to play in  a range of keys, or forget about being a bluegrass fiddler. Not that playing in these keys is hard, just improvising on the fly is more difficult in these keys.

I think now though  that there could be a place for tuning up or down  on occasion.  Needs some thought.

Edited by - irfiddler on 08/25/2013 17:47:54

FireandAir - Posted - 08/25/2013:  18:48:00

There's also the issue of why you're doing it, how much preparation time you have, and whether you are being paid.  Honestly, if you are working as a band member or a session player, you need to be able to produce the right noises as quickly as possible, period -- time is money in that environment.  The band or the producer won't care HOW you hit the right note, only that you DO hit it, and quickly enough that they don't have to pay anyone overtime.  Session players are brilliant musicians, and part of that brilliance is the ability to play ANYTHING quickly, no matter how they have to do it.  I remember learning about the legendary session guitarist Tommy Tedesco, who would tune EVERYTHING HE TOUCHED like a guitar so that he could get up to speed on it in about sixteen seconds, and enable a producer to record an entire album in a day.  He used tape, he used whiteout dots, he tuned sitars in fourths ... and he also played magnificently, in any style required.

If you are playing for yourself, if you have the time, or if you seek mastery of the device for its own sake (which to some extent we all do), you can learn to do things the "right" way.  But sometimes you will be forced to do things the quick and dirty way.  On your own time, privately, you can spend time in the woodshed on scales in B, practicing exercises in B, etc.  But if your band calls and says you have a gig that night, and they are going to play something in B, and you need the money ... guess what, you're tuning down, at least until you get enough time in the shed to where you won't have to.

Henry - Posted - 08/25/2013:  22:53:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by JHDuncan

 

If you want to play grass, you are going to have to learn how to play in B. Play the B major scale, ALOT, to get familiar with all the fingerings. Learn common double stops in B, E and F#.



It's a big part of the genre.

---

You can play in the key of C, right?

Well just slide your second finger from the B note on the G string up to the C note a half step away. I reckon you could work out the notes to a song you know well with your hand in this new position, and the next time the jammers play in B you have got the finger pattern down pat.......

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/26/2013:  11:12:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

The problem with tuning everything down a half step  - at least in the context of playing in a situation where the vocalist gets unilateral decision making as to the key; you theoretically have to play in ALL keys; as the singer lacks the musical command of their instrument (voice) to sing that particular song in any other key than one. Say one song is in B, another is in G another in F, another in D, another in C; so the tuned down fiddle would have to then either play in the fingered Ab, Gb Eb and Db respectively; or  re-tune between each song; or use at least 3 fiddles and swap around (not particularly a great way IMO) - Really in this context of playing with those singers, it's all about the singer, (not the group of musicians), you pretty much have to have higher skill than the singer and ability play in every key.

Of course the other option to just not play in that context, instead play with singers who can account for what works for the group of musicians (the fiddler is not demanded to have higher skills than the singer). Group negotiates key. A lot of good bluegrass can be done in just just g, c, a, and d.

---

You gotta remember that it's not just about the LEAD singer- if they were the only singer on a song, they probably WOULD have the range to be a bit flexible.  But much of the charm of Bluegrass is those 3 and 4 part harmonies.... and that means including all or nearly all the instrumentalists as singers for backup parts when that's not their forte.  THEY may not have the range... so the key is dependent on what ALL the singers in a group can handle for a part, and THAT can remove the flexibility in using different keys REALLY quickly.

FireandAir - Posted - 08/26/2013:  12:12:55

Singers are also in the unenviable position of playing an instrument that bleeds and ages, and whose strings can't be swapped out when they wear out.  It's ... well, ignorant in both senses of the word to expect them to handle their instruments the way we handle ours.  They simply can't, and it's unreasonable to expect them to.  They sing in restricted keys for a good reason, especially if they want to have a career that lasts more than ten years.  If we wear out a string, we buy new ones.  If they "wear out a string," they are finished, permanently.

irfiddler - Posted - 08/26/2013:  18:30:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

You gotta remember that it's not just about the LEAD singer- if they were the only singer on a song, they probably WOULD have the range to be a bit flexible.  But much of the charm of Bluegrass is those 3 and 4 part harmonies.... and that means including all or nearly all the instrumentalists as singers for backup parts when that's not their forte.  THEY may not have the range... so the key is dependent on what ALL the singers in a group can handle for a part, and THAT can remove the flexibility in using different keys REALLY quickly.

---

Very good point.   It's easy to forget that  In  Bluegrass the vocals are king,  unlike oldtime which is mostly instrumental.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia about Bill Monroe - the father of Bluegrass music.  Bill had a high tenor voice and played mandolin.    While the fast tempos and instrumental virtuosity characteristic of bluegrass music are apparent even on these early tracks, Monroe was still experimenting with the sound of his group. He seldom sang lead vocals on his Victor recordings, often preferring to contribute high tenor harmonies as he had in the Monroe Brothers.

I went to some  bluegrass harmony singing workshops a few years ago and learned a lot.  I'd recommend that anyone who wants to play bluegrass music  become familiar with the other instruments and what their limitations are, and particularly with what is required of the singers when they sing those tight 3 and 4 part harmonies.   Bluegrass is a team effort.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/28/2013:  16:40:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by FireandAir

 

Singers are also in the unenviable position of playing an instrument that bleeds and ages, and whose strings can't be swapped out when they wear out.  It's ... well, ignorant in both senses of the word to expect them to handle their instruments the way we handle ours.  They simply can't, and it's unreasonable to expect them to.  They sing in restricted keys for a good reason, especially if they want to have a career that lasts more than ten years.  If we wear out a string, we buy new ones.  If they "wear out a string," they are finished, permanently.

---

Not sure what both senses of ignorant is - but I am willing to admit to being ignorant about what some folks are talking about. I have read or heard people make these similar statements, portrayal about most singers limitations, as well as statements, portrayal similar to what pogo and irfiddler wrote about vocals and harmony and singers work, in jams and bands; as well as other statements about theoretical "rules" and big dogs.  

I am ignorant of how folks can make these statements, ignorant of what the heck kind of actual experience they have to base those statements. They sound like sounds like a good theory - but these just doesn't much match most of MY real life experiences, 38 years of being around singers and how they work, my own experience of singing lead and harmony; including doing straight up bluegrass with standard trio stacks as well as brother duets, going back to lot's of 70's SPBGMA festivals, jamming, performing with bands, working out vocals and instrumentation, keys and blend with bands; some even included playing in Bb/B and E/F keys.

Few observations.

1. The range of most just average untrained singers is quite a bit wider than the ambitus, (compass of the melody), of the vast majority of the songs. There are 2 main melodic prototypes; root centric (RC) and fifth centric (FC); so each ambitus represents 2 keys. Because of this they are not locked to one key for either prototype, can move most songs, often easily by around two whole steps, giving 5 keys for either RC or FC. I actually have never experienced a singer limited to one key, unable to move at least a whole step. Good singers can move it even more. Many singers have learned, trained to widen expand their range, some just by singing will expand, others more deliberate working on. Because of this extra range than needed for a song, they have flexibility to choose. So the key is about making a choice. Some have some rather odd reasons, or illusions. Others though are making the choice for a valid reason.

2. Back in the day (and still exists) many songs are labeled as "commonly playing in G",  or D; and G, D, A, C were  considered "popular" keys, and why others are labeled unpopular. Much had to do with those keys are not only easy to play in, but generally easy to sing in (at least for the average male lead voice), in a fairly relaxed voice; G (or A) for Root Center songs; C/D for Fifthe centered. (Female vocal lead often need to reverse those)

3. So why has Bb/B and it's counter E/F become so widespread? One of the reasons, when you hear folks sing those same songs in Bb/B and E/F, it's related to the 2. above; and not so much about their limitation/inability to sing in G or D (nor the harmonies), or that G or D would be uncomfortable or do damage (in many ways the opposite) - one priamary reason is quite often (esp with top dog pros) about singing higher, some that higher is more exciting,  but more than that, it's in putting it at the edge of highest part of range. It is not just being able to hit notes, achieved by going lower, or that the voice is naturally higher (like a female) - it's to go up, make The G song up to Bb/B, to create a tenseness, high tight throat belted sound (not falsetto). Especially in the high tenor. AFAIK, almost all of the time, these singers can easily drop it down and get all the notes, but too low and it is too relaxed throat sound, less piercing and tense, and less cut. Most singers do not come at this easy, indeed have to work on getting that high quality (as Bill Monroe did for his high tenor). And the highest for some (like Bill) might change from day to day. That High singing is great, love it, but that said, not all BG singing is about that, or IMO needs to, and can sound fine in a relaxed voice. Certainly playing with others, instrument voicing as part  team effort, high might not be the better choice.

As far as the comments about 3 and 4 part harmony, and how that works, nice theory; but again that portrayal just doesn't quite match my actual experience of how it works, for many reasons. 

FireandAir, fiddlepogo, irfiddler - didn't mean to insult you're musical and singing abilities - if you can only sing in one key range, then you that's what you can do; and you will need others to be have the skill and ability to adjust to you. If in your singing experience that works for you then it does. But I don't see why that limited is any more important than the fiddlers, or banjo's limitation. IMO working as a team, each person (including singers) has to have enough skills and ability to have some flexibility. IMO working as a team is most important, but that each person (including singers) should work to have enough skills and ability to have some flexibility; and not just expect (or demand) others do more work, have more ability. And, again with perhaps my both senses of ignorance, the mention of "big dogs" it would seem to me if you want to be a singer with the big dogs, you probably need to have broader skills and ability then portrayed.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/28/2013:  18:20:46

quote:

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Originally posted by irfiddler

It's easy to forget that  In  Bluegrass the vocals are king,  unlike oldtime which is mostly instrumental.

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At least from my real life experience, I'm sure the books and workshops, list of "rules" will indicate my ignorance - a lot of BG is not all about 3 and esp 4 part harmonies (4 part is rare or used in way different context, instrumentation interaction is different). While the trio stack(s) is quite common, you can make BG with just duet, like classic brother sound (some folks prefer it, three is not always better) and it is possible to be BG with just the single lead; and in some BG the instrumentation is seen not taking a back seat to the singing; that is the vocals are sometimes just okay, passable, but what makes that group is the overall groove and breaks. Despite what is written somewhere, about vocals being king; some bands, and jams, are highly instrument oriented; the singing is not bad, but not grand, seems just there to give a little context and framing. Some jam pickers (esp banjo) love this, less words, more breaks. Of course there is also the (probably against someone's written rules) that playing BG is about getting together with folks, make reasonable decent good average Joe music, being inclusive and having fun. (these are often in common popular keys)

As well, despite what is often written about OT music being instrumentals; I have, in real life, experienced lot's of OT music that wasn't just about tunes; indeed some has highly vocal component. Not only do they sing a lot, high vocal mix, they like to sing with quality; some even includes strong harmony, like Carter Family, and classic brother duet (ala Delmore's) The ambitus of the materiel is essentially the same as BG songs; but since oriented with more fiddle, open mando and specific tuned CH banjo, and to include them as vital to the team sound, they stick to mostly more common keys; and manage just fine. 

quote:

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Originally posted by irfiddler

I'd recommend that anyone who wants to play bluegrass music  become familiar with the other instruments and what their limitations are, and particularly with what is required of the singers when they sing those tight 3 and 4 part harmonies.   Bluegrass is a team effort.

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Agree with your statement about understanding  instruments, esp. it's voicing and blend. And what happens when changing keys. Banjo's and guitars, capoing up up a shape a fret or two is not a problem; going down from open requires a different shape, different low end and sometimes different triad stack, HO available, rolls; which can greatly change the sound.

A great way to understand the requirements of singing is to participate in singing, IMO everybody can and should sing, it has many extra benefits, many beneficial to fiddle, intonation, phrasing, articulation, expression, blending; and possibly the ability to question some theoretical myths and "rules" that folks state or were written somewhere.

That awareness of instruments, voice and as well as the team effort, is not exclusive of BG. For example, some folks actually think OT music doesn't have to be a ragged cacophony of folks just individually playing the same tune at the same time; fiddle, banjo, guitar, and voice symbiotically working together as one. Crazy huh?

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 08/28/2013 18:25:16

irfiddler - Posted - 08/28/2013:  23:46:48

You make some valid points alaskafiddler, and I enjoyed reading your posts It's clear that we have all come from different backgrounds, had different experiences, and everyone will find their own way. There's no one right way - I apologize if I came across as dogmatic.



But, I do think as the years have gone by, the bar in bluegrass has been set higher - at least for those who are interested in that - I know that many prefer more laidback styles and it's not to say one is better than the other.



We are lucky enough to have a lot of bluegrass in this area - 3 festivals annually now , 2 active clubs, at least several open jams a week, plus classes for beginners and intermediates where everyone is encouraged to play and improvise ( and sing)  in B, B flat, E etc, as well as in  the easier keys, ...and so on. Consequently, there's been a leap in what is expected of singers and instrumentalists just in the last few years around here. I don't know if others have noticed the same thing in their areas.



Also, because of all the access to Youtube and teaching videos etc, this forum, and the fact that we all openly share fiddling secrets and shortcuts that we really had to search for in the past, fiddlers are even able to teach themselves to play these days - and to play more technically difficult versions - if that is their goal.

Edited by - irfiddler on 08/28/2013 23:52:36

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/29/2013:  09:07:15

FireandAir - Posted - 08/29/2013:  09:31:11

Dude, I don't sing.  Get over yourself.

FireandAir - Posted - 08/29/2013:  09:43:09

I shouldn't go deeper on this but ... sorry, I have to. I have never once encountered an instrumentalist with your attitude toward singers who didn't at bottom resent the hell out of the fact that even while you're up there on stage being fabulous, the singer always is (and always will be) the central public face of the music.

You know what?

That's too damn bad.  It's been like that since the dawn of time.  You share a stage with a singer, and your are less important to the majority of the unwashed audience.  Period.  That is how humans are wired; the audience is and always will be paying more attention to the person who uses their body to make the music than they will to any of us.  I play three instruments, none of which are my larynx, and that's just how it is. You can either stop complaining and acknowledge it (and stop hiding behind a bunch of poorly used technical BS), you can refuse to play with singers, or you can back them up and continue to stew in the resentment that comes from being The Most Important Person On Stage And Yet I'm Being Ignored For That Damn Singer.

Unless you're talking about other musicians, audience members will pay mind to a voice uber alles.  And here is where I must repeat myself: get over it or get off the stage.

JHDuncan - Posted - 08/29/2013:  11:22:20

Hey blgrsr,

It has been about a month. How is the key of B treating you?

John

Henry - Posted - 08/29/2013:  16:19:37

Learn to play in ALL keys....

What you gonna say to the singer.......''Aw, please take the capo off, I can't play in E flat''..( or B or F sharp or A flat or )

S'pose you could sit that one out..

boxbow - Posted - 08/29/2013:  17:30:39

I've applied for a patent for my new invention.  It's The Throat Capo.  Place it around the singer's neck, and.....problem solved.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/29/2013:  19:52:22

quote:

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Originally posted by boxbow

 

I've applied for a patent for my new invention.  It's The Throat Capo.  Place it around the singer's neck, and.....problem solved.

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Brilliant!!!!!!

irfiddler - Posted - 08/31/2013:  12:50:21

quote:

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Originally posted by FireandAir

 

I shouldn't go deeper on this but ... sorry, I have to. I have never once encountered an instrumentalist with your attitude toward singers who didn't at bottom resent the hell out of the fact that even while you're up there on stage being fabulous, the singer always is (and always will be) the central public face of the music.

You know what?

That's too damn bad.  It's been like that since the dawn of time.  You share a stage with a singer, and your are less important to the majority of the unwashed audience.  Period.  That is how humans are wired; the audience is and always will be paying more attention to the person who uses their body to make the music than they will to any of us.  I play three instruments, none of which are my larynx, and that's just how it is. You can either stop complaining and acknowledge it (and stop hiding behind a bunch of poorly used technical BS), you can refuse to play with singers, or you can back them up and continue to stew in the resentment that comes from being The Most Important Person On Stage And Yet I'm Being Ignored For That Damn Singer.

Unless you're talking about other musicians, audience members will pay mind to a voice uber alles.  And here is where I must repeat myself: get over it or get off the stage.

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Feel better?

blgrssr - Posted - 09/01/2013:  15:28:35

i actually got sidetracked with st annes reel, but am off this and plan on B ing the heck out of things!

blgrssr - Posted - 09/02/2013:  07:12:51

i actually got sidetracked with st annes reel, but am off this and plan on B ing the heck out of things!

lrhamp - Posted - 09/05/2013:  09:58:28

Hee Hee Hee------I've really enjoyed this topic. My comments: 1. Let the session musicians handle "B". 2. Learn to shake your head "NO" in a jam session. 3. Practice to always get better and remember what Kenny Baker reportedly said when he was asked " Do you miss being with Monroe's band?"----answer "After 30 years of being in the key of B ??????" Nuff said.

JHDuncan - Posted - 09/05/2013:  11:30:21

quote:

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Originally posted by lrhamp

 

 Kenny Baker reportedly said when he was asked " Do you miss being with Monroe's band?"----answer "After 30 years of being in the key of B ??????" Nuff said.

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Baker flat crushed it in the key of B. He sure didn't try to avoid playing in it. 

He didn't tune a fiddle up or down to get around it. He created some of the best bluegrass solos and fills in the key of B. And Bb. And F. Among other weird keys. 

He plays some great, great stuff here on Train 45....in B

blgrssr - Posted - 09/05/2013:  15:53:39

irhamp hit it right on the head. Sometimes you gotta say "no".

DougD - Posted - 09/05/2013:  21:47:26

Not if you want to really play Bluegrass. Its not the most common key, but not uncommon either. As JHDuncan said, good Bluegrass fiddlers don't retune or look for "tricks"  - they just learn the scales, chords, arpeggios in whatever way works for them. Really on a fiddle one note is pretty much like any other - its either sweet and in tune or not. I'm currently playing a show eight times a week where one song is in B (I'm on mandolin - same fingerings) It's a slow tune and I play fairly simply, but I've gradually gotten more comfortable with finding the right notes in the scales. Always good to learn new things. Not too long ago I did one which included "Sioux City Sue" (on fiddle) that started in E and modulated to F#. Again I kept it simple and explored the scales as we played.

Lee Mysliwiec - Posted - 09/09/2013:  13:05:47

quote:

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Originally posted by JHDuncan

 

quote:

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Originally posted by lrhamp

 

 Kenny Baker reportedly said when he was asked " Do you miss being with Monroe's band?"----answer "After 30 years of being in the key of B ??????" Nuff said.

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Baker flat crushed it in the key of B. He sure didn't try to avoid playing in it. 

He didn't tune a fiddle up or down to get around it. He created some of the best bluegrass solos and fills in the key of B. And Bb. And F. Among other weird keys. 

He plays some great, great stuff here on Train 45....in B

 

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This is EXACTLY why I don't do any Bluegrass fiddling... I don't have That talent...