Dave S - Posted - 09/11/2013:  08:53:56

quote:

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Originally posted by JHDuncan 

Baker flat crushed it in the key of B. He sure didn't try to avoid playing in it. 

He didn't tune a fiddle up or down to get around it. He created some of the best bluegrass solos and fills in the key of B. And Bb. And F. Among other weird keys. 

He plays some great, great stuff here on Train 45....in B

Thanks for posting that! It made me realize what an easy key B is for playing bluesy stuff using open strings.

The scale, descending:

  E string: [anchor index at F#] high B, A, F#, then open E 

  A string: [anchor index at B] D, B, then open A

  D string ; F#, E, then open D

  G string: B, A

For all the above, the index finger just moves across the strings. Noodle with it and you'll see how easy it is...

Lots of easy and bluesy double-stops in there as well.

'B' is for blues! 

DougD - Posted - 09/11/2013:  09:09:33

I realize that the third of the scale is often flatted some for blues, but if you play a D natural (especially an open string) it is a B minor scale. B Major has a D#.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/11/2013:  10:06:24

I agree that B is great for getting the bluesier sound like Train 45 - As is the key of E.

Doug is correct that B would use a D#; but along with the A note making it a  mixolydian,  common way to play bluesier; using a major third and a minor seventh. But sometimes the third (and seventh) bluesy sound is a neutral, or bent - in between note (between D and D#) - Equal tempered instruments often play minor (especially minor pentatonic) over a major key to achieve that. Or slide between. But on a fiddle you can use the actual neutral third (and seventh) - a bit closer to D# than D; and can easily give it that slide into the note.

The key of E (mixolydian) is also great for that bluesy feel. And one way to approach it is that is familiar as almost the same notes as the E minor (dorian actually so the notes of D major) but then bend the G notes up closer to a G#.

What I like about the key of B and E is how the open string fourth and sevenths work into the playing.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 09/11/2013 10:11:02

Dave S - Posted - 09/11/2013:  11:00:10

>What I like about the key of B and E is how the open string fourth and sevenths work into the playing.

Yes indeed. 

Doug, I'd say the third is often flatted entirely for blues (on piano, inevitably, and on guitar often not bent up), especially for short-duration notes, but as alaskafiddler says, there's plenty of bending/sliding between D and D#. The so-called "blues" scale (pretty much what I described above) does share notes, including the flatted 3rd, with the B-minor scale, but I don't think that makes it a B-minor scale. 

DougD - Posted - 09/11/2013:  11:18:06

Dave, looking at it again, what you've described is a B minor pentatonic scale (B,D,E,F#,A), which is fine and useful for lots of things. I think its usually considered a "blues" scale. When I first looked I thought you were trying for a full B scale. I think my real point was that with an open string D you can't "bend" it or alter the pitch to be somewhere between D and D#, as you can with the D on the second string.

Dave S - Posted - 09/11/2013:  11:29:16

OK, and thanks for putting a name to it.

Re that open D-string note, the index finger can be employed to slide up from the nut to sharpen the D as desired. Fretlessness is good.

fiddler59 - Posted - 09/25/2013:  01:17:19

quote:

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Originally posted by JHDuncan

 

quote:

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Originally posted by lrhamp

 

 Kenny Baker reportedly said when he was asked " Do you miss being with Monroe's band?"----answer "After 30 years of being in the key of B ??????" Nuff said.

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Baker flat crushed it in the key of B. He sure didn't try to avoid playing in it. 

He didn't tune a fiddle up or down to get around it. He created some of the best bluegrass solos and fills in the key of B. And Bb. And F. Among other weird keys. 

He plays some great, great stuff here on Train 45....in B

 

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That looks like a young Buddy Spicher playing twin fiddles with Kenny Baker......lethal combination.....!!!!!

David Blackmon

JHDuncan - Posted - 09/25/2013:  10:46:54

Yessir! Young Buddy! 

tarheel - Posted - 10/30/2013:  18:27:26

Swamplunker - Posted - 11/09/2013:  17:15:22

Sorry I've been gone so long, I spend most of my time on the Banjo Hangout since that's what I'm trying to learn. Irfiddler, you asked me what other "tricks" I had, and I was going to say none, but then I thought of one. But let me start at the beginning. Any fiddler could be asked to play in any of the 24 major/minor keys, and I want to do it with a minimum of fiddles, in my case(s) two, and with zero retuning, as well as zero regard for how Vernal Equinox used to do it when he played with Red Suspenders and the Cranky Creek band. I want it to be really good. I think we've established that the lead singer, not the fiddler, will determine the key- you can negotiate, but it's not a democracy. You don't have to stay in the band either. When I practice scales, I start at C, go to the relative minor, Am, then go counter-clockwise around the circle of fifths to F, one flat, then D minor, then B flat, and so on. The advantage of going that way is you're dropping down two notes each time with the root (alternating 3&4 half step drops but basically two letters),easy to keep track of if you're practicing in the alley of a bar--oops, meant to say backstage at Carnegie Hall, also you're adding one flat at a time, not like swallowing five whole and cold. As long as I warm up like this, I'm good for twenty keys, four still hamstring me: B,and its' relative minor, G#m, and F# its' relative minor, D#m, five and six sharps respectively, for some reason I'm OK with that many flats. When I played with a lady who had half her songs in B, I had to figure out something, and that was tuning down a half step and acting like I was in C. Worked like a charm. All people want to hear is really good notes, played in tune, they don't care if you capo or use sugar for rosin if it sounds good. Now, the other part: I've been blessed that no one ever asked me to play in F#, or, if they did, I quickly negotiated for G and forgot all about it, entirely possible in 46 years of playing, but if elected, all I'd have to do is use the same fiddle I used for C, and without retuning, act like I was in G. So that's my other trick, the one I never had to use yet, and now all 24 are covered. I love Kenny Baker, by the way, and that stuff in B is far from his best stuff. He's essentially holding down the fort with a B scale on the top two strings only. Why so conservative? He's forced to concentrate on playing in tune, but like a pro, he can convince some people he's burning down the town.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 11/09/2013:  21:39:57

I thought I heard Darol anger talk about playing a closed E scale (no open strings) you could then play pretty much any other key, by just starting on that note with your first finger, would that work for B?

Swamplunker - Posted - 11/10/2013:  15:26:44

Yes, that goes for any major scale, the intervals between the notes will be whole step, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half. Now try it,you'll also be in second position, with intervals closer together, same if you do F#, except that'll be on the D string. It's not that it can't be done, for me it's that I have to focus so much on playing in tune, all my freedom to zip all over the place and hit any note I want is gone. I end up playing a lot of adjacent notes, up and down a scale, as does Kenny Baker in the example above, and as mentioned already, he stays on the top two strings exclusively, using only half the violin. I call it holding down the fort.

Joel Glassman - Posted - 01/10/2014:  20:08:38

Play a C chord: C [on the G string] E [on the D string] and C [on the A string]

Move this shape 1/2 step down toward the nut and you are playing in B.

There are a lot of gymnastics you can do in this form... :^)

Its called "half position".

Edited by - Joel Glassman on 01/10/2014 20:10:56

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 01/10/2014:  20:59:39

Are you saying play the C scale just down a half step?

Bradford - Posted - 01/10/2014:  23:42:04

Yep, be careful using the term 'half position' I got my butt handed to me for using that on another forum once... gets certain peoples heckles in an uproar. They basically told me 'anyone who uses that term is a hack and doesn't know anything'  Just goes to show you what people on 'mr interwebz' know - I've heard the same term from some really famous people and the people who scolded me are still a bunch of 'never has beens'

I know what you mean and still think of it that way when playing in Bb, Eb Ab etc...

Edited by - Bradford on 01/10/2014 23:43:35

clawhammerer - Posted - 01/13/2014:  06:49:31

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

 

Are you saying play the C scale just down a half step?

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Another variation to this is working out the "B half bar" in the key of C (slide up a half-step on E-A strings)...specifically on the high part of Ashland Breakdown. For me, I like to play tunes in a key to really start getting it...although I wouldn't say I'm that great at it yet. I mentioned Ashland Breakdown for the "half bar", then there's Herschel Sizemore's "Rebecca" which is a real B tune, I'd also suggest picking up some Missouri tunes in Bb for getting a close approximation to B...it's close to B but a little easier: Blue Water Hornpipe/Pres Garfield's HP, Casey's Hornpipe, etc.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 01/17/2014:  22:00:51

I'm working on a tune called You can't handle the truth, that the Infamous String Dusters do, and it's in B. So I have been working out a solo for it. I found that it's not that hard to "hold down the fort" in B as I thought it was going to be. For me it's mostly working out some licks and runs down through the D string. Here's the Jeremy Garrett solo in B, it's mostly on A and E and a little on the D string. It never leaves first position either, sounds great. Lots of fifth double stops.

You can't handle the

BeKay - Posted - 04/15/2014:  08:54:33

Play 2 octaves of the B scale starting with the 2'nd finger on the G string and ending with the 4'th finger on the E string. Practice this scale every day. 

Edited by - BeKay on 04/15/2014 08:58:11

fujers - Posted - 04/20/2014:  18:55:47

I agree with JH. Learn to play in B or Bb, Shoot learn to play in any key. Stay away form C# that key is no mans land. C# is hard to play in they are all closed notes. Besides, no body plays in that key

Henry - Posted - 04/20/2014:  23:31:40

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

 C# is hard to play in they are all closed notes. Besides, no body plays in that key

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What if the singer puts thier capo on the wrong fret !? What you gonna do then, tell them you can not play in that key !?

Happen to me a few times, but I did'nt say anything, just kept playin'...

Well, tis the same a B or Bb, or C for that matter...You just put your 2nd finger down on the G string, in each case, and call that the tonic note.....and away you go...... easy.