bwright - Posted - 07/28/2013:  08:02:18

Ran across this video and found it interested and just had to share it.

youtube.com/watch?v=9taIwi2SoDA

withnall - Posted - 07/28/2013:  13:06:32

Awesome! Thanks for helping me not get anything done this afternoon :-)

bwright - Posted - 07/28/2013:  13:33:42

You're welcome... lol

vibratingstring - Posted - 07/29/2013:  03:10:11

It's interesting to watch the hand/wrist/arm motions of each player.   Very different articulations.

Thanks for pointing out the video.

Larry

mad baloney - Posted - 07/29/2013:  20:54:50

Jabour makes playing the fiddle look like the 12 labors of Hercules, but he sounds good.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/29/2013:  22:18:49

At 5:16  where Alan Jabbour says "Now this is pure Henry Reed..."  he's talking about a pattern which I call "Sawshuffle" and Dave Reiner calls the Middle Shuffle:

1-1-1-3-1-1.  He doesn't give it a name, but actually counts it out.  In so many words he's talking about the hemiola effect when he says "broken up into threes".

elf1654 - Posted - 08/05/2013:  04:03:54

Finally had time yesterday to sit down and watch this. Thanks for posting the link. Mr. Jabbour plays a tune called "The Old Church Yard Tune" around the 59 minute mark that now I need to try and learn. One of the most soul wrenching tunes I can think of.

A second video is available here youtube.com/watch?v=XTfZvpKoV0o
but I think the sound is better on the first.
Rusty

JackL - Posted - 09/01/2013:  17:38:26

This is great; thank you for posting it!

cunparis - Posted - 09/07/2013:  00:14:01

I haven't watched it all yet, but I really enjoyed how the 2nd player made the violin sound like a bagpipe.  I play Irish (and Scottish) music on whistle & flute and it was really interesting to see him playing with long bows yet the sound was very stacato and crisp.  I'm still learning to do this on the whistle & flute.  I can do it but it doesn't sound good.  On fiddle it must be much more difficult.

nodog - Posted - 11/15/2013:  09:49:44

I agree with cunparis, it is amazing how the second fiddler made the fiddle sound like a bagpipe droning. The influence of bagpipe music on scots fiddle music was clear to hear. There are other influences musically which direct a person into some music genres and some instruments which almost demand a person to play it a certain way. I was playing an accordion sound on my synthesizer recently and just fell into gallic sounding french style music which is not something i would consciously do. I have only recently picked up a fiddle to learn and am enjoying it immensely. I have always played fretted instruments and have several mandolins but a bowed instrument is a different beast entirely. The nice thing about the fiddle it accommodates so many different ways, styles , and cultures, there is a rich history steeped in the fiddle.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 11/15/2013:  14:01:21

I've only watched part of it (and am enjoying it), yet I like the way Alan says something about how the open string E and  fingered E on the D string are supposed to be slightly off.  This arrangement certainly makes the tune old timey and adds a delicious flavour when used sparingly IMHO.   

carlb - Posted - 11/16/2013:  04:35:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

 I've only watched part of it (and am enjoying it), yet I like the way Alan says something about how the open string E and  fingered E on the D string are supposed to be slightly off.  This arrangement certainly makes the tune old timey and adds a delicious flavour when used sparingly IMHO.   

---

In the setting up of an Irish button accordion, there are two ways to tune the double reeds in the instrument. One is known as the "wet sound" and the other is known as the "dry sound". In the "dry sound", the reeds are tuned perfectly to the same pitch. In the "wet sound", the reeds are tuned a few cents (100 cents in a half step; also 1 cent = 1 beat/second when two notes are not quite in tune with each other) apart. I was told that the "wet sound" has more presence then the "dry sound". This is equivalent to Alan described as being "slightly off".

fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/16/2013:  09:55:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

 I've only watched part of it (and am enjoying it), yet I like the way Alan says something about how the open string E and  fingered E on the D string are supposed to be slightly off.  This arrangement certainly makes the tune old timey and adds a delicious flavour when used sparingly IMHO.   

---

In the setting up of an Irish button accordion, there are two ways to tune the double reeds in the instrument. One is known as the "wet sound" and the other is known as the "dry sound". In the "dry sound", the reeds are tuned perfectly to the same pitch. In the "wet sound", the reeds are tuned a few cents (100 cents in a half step; also 1 cent = 1 beat/second when two notes are not quite in tune with each other) apart. I was told that the "wet sound" has more presence then the "dry sound". This is equivalent to Alan described as being "slightly off".

---

Hmmm.... that explains something.

After I recorded the second fiddle on my two fiddles recording of "Over the Waterfall", I noticed that the two fiddles were just a little out of tune with each other... and I was thinking of tossing out the recording, but then I realized it sounded great.... more alive.... more... yeah, presence is the right word!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 11/17/2013:  13:18:30

I like Alan Jabbour...I gotta agree with Mad Baloney-- watching him play is a feat in itself, lol, but he does play good and I believe has done a lot to share and save a lot of old fiddling for the world to enjoy.  The other guys were good too, interesting to hear them talk...I always think of one of my favorite ky authors and historians, Harriette Arnow, and how she bemoaned the building of Lake Cumberland, which displaced herself and family, community, wiped out a town and rural area including its local culture, even including, as she says, drowning the fiddle tunes, never to be played, heard, danced to again in this world.  So, these guys, especially Jabbour I believe, are preserving a part of our history and culture that is fragile and could easily be lost forever.

Addie - Posted - 11/19/2013:  09:14:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by nodog

it is amazing how the second fiddler made the fiddle sound like a bagpipe droning. The influence of bagpipe music on scots fiddle music was clear to hear.

---

The second fiddler...  I've never heard anything like it.  And I grew up in a Scottish-music environment.  So, I would say this is not representative of ANY Scottish fiddling tradition.

The guy's sense of history is not too good either.  The Battle of Culloden didn't end the bagpipe tradition, nor did it start the fiddle tradition.  I think Martin Martin says there were 18 fiddlers on the Isle of Lewis c. 1700.  Probably more than the number of Highland pipers on Lewis.

As for Highland music in general, it's all based on Gaelic song.  Recent research indicates that the Strathspey style originated in West Highland singing (in an article entitled "academia.edu%2F4007917%...3336,d.b2I">Reeling in the Strathspey," by Lamb).  The Highland bagpipe, and it's musical predecessor the harp, were elite traditions.  Full time musicians and "wandering minstrels" (a lot of these were Irish harpers in Scotland) are supported by the elite, not starving dirt grubbers and fisher folk.  The music of the people was song, and in the Highlands, the Jew's harp, joined early on by the fiddle.  So to say that Highland fiddle music evolved from bagpipe music is ridiculous.  They evolved side-by-side.

Effing academics!  

Addie=couldn't watch the rest of the video.  Was the Irish guy any good?

Addie - Posted - 11/19/2013:  09:20:49

Bill, what make of drones do you play?  Looks like a nice set.

No need to ask about the chanter... you can spot a Naill a mile away!  

DeamhanFola - Posted - 12/05/2013:  15:42:18

quote:

Originally posted by Addie



quote:

Originally posted by nodog

it is amazing how the second fiddler made the fiddle sound like a bagpipe droning. The influence of bagpipe music on scots fiddle music was clear to hear.

The second fiddler...  I've never heard anything like it.  And I grew up in a Scottish-music environment.  So, I would say this is not representative of ANY Scottish fiddling tradition.

The guy's sense of history is not too good either.  The Battle of Culloden didn't end the bagpipe tradition, nor did it start the fiddle tradition.  I think Martin Martin says there were 18 fiddlers on the Isle of Lewis c. 1700.  Probably more than the number of Highland pipers on Lewis.

As for Highland music in general, it's all based on Gaelic song.  Recent research indicates that the Strathspey style originated in West Highland singing (in an article entitled "academia.edu%2F4007917%...3336,d.b2I">Reeling in the Strathspey," by Lamb).  The Highland bagpipe, and it's musical predecessor the harp, were elite traditions.  Full time musicians and "wandering minstrels" (a lot of these were Irish harpers in Scotland) are supported by the elite, not starving dirt grubbers and fisher folk.  The music of the people was song, and in the Highlands, the Jew's harp, joined early on by the fiddle.  So to say that Highland fiddle music evolved from bagpipe music is ridiculous.  They evolved side-by-side.

Effing academics!  

Addie=couldn't watch the rest of the video.  Was the Irish guy any good?

I have no real experience with Scottish music (except as the background score to a few lost weekends having taken the Belfast-Stranraer ferry), but some of what he played sounded similar to what you might hear in the repertoire of some Donegal fiddlers (Donegal highlands), with a conscious attempt to emulate highland pipes. Those tunes obviously came to Ireland from time spent by Donegal folk working in Scotland, but  it's beyond my pay grade to comment on what resemblance (if any) these tunes might bear to the original Scottish tunes.

Regarding the history I didn't take it that he was saying that the Battle of Culloden either ended the Highland pipe tradition or began the fiddle tradition, but rather that (as a result of additional English presence) a more insistently 'classical / Baroque' influence began to find its way into some manifestations of the Scottish fiddle tradition after that point. 

bwright - Posted - 12/05/2013:  17:08:17

Addie those would be Naill drone, McCallum poly chanter ( I was playing with the band that day), I usually play a Naill chanter but lately I have been playing a Warmac 2 chanter, pitches past 482, freaked me out when I looked at the tuner and was showing b flat at 476

DougD - Posted - 12/05/2013:  17:24:07

I haven't watched the whole video, so I should really just keep still, but why should ignorance discourage participation at the FHO? The second fiddler is Jamie Laval, and although he's highly regarded as a musician he's not exactly "Scottish." A quick look at his website, especially the biography page, and you'll get the drift:   jamielaval.com/bio.html

I must admit I get a little queasy when I see someone described as a "Scottish National Champion" fiddler. Of what nation? Why do we even have such a thing - we've been independent of Scotland for well over two hundred years.

Its interesting that the question of who should get the credit (or blame) for Appalachian music has changed over time and with different sociopolitical agendas. I got to participate for a week at the 2003 Smithsonian Folklife Festival, which featured Appalachia, Scotland, and Mali. In our area someone was collecting comments from visitors for a graduate thesis. I remember one person said "I used to think Appalachian music came from England, but know I know it came from Scotland." Guess it depends on whether you're reading Cecil Sharp or watching the Battlefield Band!

Edited by - DougD on 12/05/2013 17:24:56

ChickenMan - Posted - 12/05/2013:  19:44:39

FWIW, I saw another video of Mr. Jabbour where he mentions in a talk that he now has tremors (like he noticed Henry Reed had) and that it seems to leave his hands when he starts fiddling (like he noticed in Henry Reed).

Addie - Posted - 12/06/2013:  10:36:06

"Baroque" started slipping in sometime between the Union of the crowns (1603) and the Act of Union (1707).  The Act of Union wasn't universally popular, and Scots started thinking about preserving their culture... music included.  The "Baroque" influence created some legendary Scots fiddlers, like Niel and Nathaniel Gow, and William Marshall.  All three, BTW, had aristocratic Scottish patrons, who were into Scottish music.  So the fiddle was there, and Scottish fiddle music being promoted in reaction to English influence.

You could say that the bagpipe and the fiddle replaced the harp, at about the same time (more or less), but then went their separate ways.  The bagpipe, always a martial instrument, had become a British military instrument by 1743.  That's before Culloden.

As for the fiddle, people didn't worry about folk vs Baroque until long after Culloden.  But now we still have that attitude as baggage, so Culloden and the English are to blame, always, and forevermore. Period.

Imitating the bagpipe on the fiddle isn't new, but it's not that old, either.  As far as I know, it was most common in the Northeast style, where the play a lot of pipe marches.  That's also the style most influenced by the "Baroque."  Ironic?

And for the record, Lawrie drones, c. 1965, and a Harry McNulty Sinclair chanter.  Sweet setup.

[/rant]

Addie - Posted - 12/06/2013:  11:15:08

Right, erm, well anyway, I guess my point is, imitating Great Highland Bagpipes is well known (Skinner frowned on the practice), but I've never heard of anyone imitation smallpipes.  And the guy seemed to be reciting historical baggage, not history.

Bill, I used to have a c.1900 Henderson chanter (ivory sole AND boll!) that was low pitch, with huge finger holes.  I found it hard to play (not to mention set up with the drones!), until I played piobaireachd.  Wow!  My fingers seemed to go by themselves, and it sounded great!  Try one if you ever get the chance.  Cool experience.  I can't imagine 482.  Well, actually, I can, but don't want to. 

DeamhanFola - Posted - 12/06/2013:  13:50:49

quote:

Originally posted by Addie

"Baroque" started slipping in sometime between the Union of the crowns (1603) and the Act of Union (1707).  The Act of Union wasn't universally popular, and Scots started thinking about preserving their culture... music included.  The "Baroque" influence created some legendary Scots fiddlers, like Niel and Nathaniel Gow, and William Marshall.  All three, BTW, had aristocratic Scottish patrons, who were into Scottish music.  So the fiddle was there, and Scottish fiddle music being promoted in reaction to English influence.

One can probably make similar statements regarding what was happening on the Irish side of things during the same general time period. For example, there are certainly O'Carolan tunes that sound more Baroque/continental than Gaelic (though there are also other O'Carolan tunes that clearly come out of the older, indigenous tradition). O'Carolan had similarly noble patrons with similarly vexed relations with the English.

Fidleir - Posted - 12/06/2013:  15:03:07

DeamhanFola,

Can't stop from commenting since I really love Turlough Carolan's music.  I am especially fond of "Blind Mary" and enjoy his Concerto but my absolute favorite is "Blind Mary."  I understand that he wrote it for another blind harper named Mary - forgot her last name - alas.

Maire Dhall - apparently it was written as a tribute to harper Maire Dhall.

Edited by - Fidleir on 12/06/2013 15:13:41

DeamhanFola - Posted - 12/07/2013:  08:35:53

quote:

Originally posted by Fidleir

DeamhanFola,

Can't stop from commenting since I really love Turlough Carolan's music.  I am especially fond of "Blind Mary" and enjoy his Concerto but my absolute favorite is "Blind Mary."  I understand that he wrote it for another blind harper named Mary - forgot her last name - alas.

Maire Dhall - apparently it was written as a tribute to harper Maire Dhall.

I confess I don't know a great deal about O'Carolan--while I have an appreciation for his music, my tastes run more towards the wild & wooly.

Regarding the tune title though, yes, it's just the original Gaeilge (O'Carolan, if memory serves, didn't speak English very well). The word 'dall' just means 'blind' in Irish. It's subject to séimhiú (lenition) because it's modifying a female's name. 'Blind Mary' is just the literal English translation of 'Máire Dhall'.

So, if nothing else, there's a wee lesson in Gaeilge, even if I don't know much about O'Carolan & less about Scottish music!

Addie - Posted - 12/07/2013:  11:10:14

But you can work the term lenition into casual conversation.  Impressive!  

My favorite "dall" harper is Rory Dall O'Cahan, who is very much in the Gaelic camp.  "Port Rory Dall" ("Blind Rory's Tune," composed before 1629) makes a fabulous fiddle tune.  I like to play it a bit stormy.