lrhamp - Posted - 04/01/2008:  06:24:09

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When playing alone can anyone tell the difference?

lrhamp

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Edited by - OTJunky on 05/30/2008 17:31:20

TomGlos - Posted - 04/01/2008:  08:23:37

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Here's a test to show that the difference is real.
Get your fiddle really nicely in tune (preferably by ear,) then play the two-string sixth, open D plus B on the A string. Play that "chord" good and strong, get it sounding nice, then without moving your left hand at all, change to bowing that B on the A, plus the open E. If you've tried it, what do you reckon?
Okay that's an "extreme" test, but the difference is there in whatever you play.
(On the other hand, I wouldn't actually suggest worrying about it!)
Tom

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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you're a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you've got their moccasins....

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Edited by - TomGlos on 04/01/2008 08:24:40

ApK - Posted - 04/23/2008:  11:21:44

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I'd like to understand this question.
Can you define those terms in this context?

In my current understanding, all scales are tempered one way or another.

The common temperament we think of is equal temperament but any way you chose to define your intervals is a temperament. Just Intonation or Pythagorean are both temperments, too, no?
So is 'tempered' merely shorthand for 'equally tempered?'

And then, Diatonic refers to that common 7 or 8 note do-re-mi scale. It's still a diatonic scale no matter what temperament your scale is tuned to. You can play a diatonic scale in equal temperament or you can play a diatonic scale in just intonation or what have you, no?

Thx,
ApK

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Edited by - ApK on 04/23/2008 11:22:30

Coupedefleur - Posted - 04/24/2008:  07:31:03

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Technically, a temperament uses pure intervals to produce the notes in an octave, and a temperament mis-tunes them for one reason or another.

So Pythagorean ( all pure 5ths, used for a lot of medieval music ) is a tuning. The 3rds are really wide and energetic, and the 3rd was classified as a dissonant interval back then.

Meantone temperaments narrow the 5ths a lot in order to get nice sounding 3rds. Very harmonious chords.

"Well" or irregular temperaments usually make the chords around F, C, and G like meantone and the distant keys like Pythagorean. That's where the idea of different keys having different emotional qualities came from.

Equal temperament mis-tunes everything so it all sounds alike. You can modulate anywhere. But it sounds just the same when you get there. With modern pianos even the octaves aren't pure- they're tuned sharper the higher you go to sound more brilliant.

A lot of the above is over-simplified, but it's a subject that rather large books can be written on.

It's my guess that most traditional fiddlers with good ears tended to go in the direction of "just", with pure 5ths and 3rds. They didn't modulate into different keys, and if they were not playing with a piano they could play all the intervals so they sound in tune. Commercially-produced guitars would have been in equal temperament, but the sound dies out quickly enough that you don't notice it as much. Banjo would have been even less noticeable, and fretless banjo could have tuned any way the player liked.

So this theoretical traditional fiddler would probably play pure 3rds and 6ths in double stops. In a single line melody you wouldn't notice the tuning so much.

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Edited by - Coupedefleur on 04/24/2008 07:35:39

carlb - Posted - 04/30/2008:  10:19:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by lrhamp

When playing alone can anyone tell the difference?

lrhamp

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After reading "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care", I understood why, when I played the following double stops, while playing in the key of C, the C note on the 2nd string was in slightly different position for playing E-C on the 3rd and 2nd strings as compared to playing C-E on the 2nd and 1st stings. At least, that's what my ear told me.

Carl

"Just around the corner is someone who plays better than you....." "There will always be someone who likes your music and someone who dislikes your music. Get over it......." [Dan Haerle, former music prof at University of North Texas]

Klondike Waldo - Posted - 07/08/2008:  12:37:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by Coupedefleur

Technically, a temperament uses pure intervals to produce the notes in an octave, and a temperament mis-tunes them for one reason or another.

snip

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the rest of the post makes sense, but is there something missing in this first sentence?

deligo ergo renideo

Teetotaller - Posted - 07/17/2008:  15:25:16

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A diatonic scale just means "the white notes" on a piano. The alternative is a chromatic scale that has all the semitones.
For instance you get diatonic button accordions and chromatic accordions. When you buy a diatonic one you have to buy it in a specified key and it will not have all the 12 semitones available.

A tempered scale is one that is altered from resonant ratios. A guitar or piano is normally Equal Tempered - with every semitone being exactly the same size - making every note other than the octave "out of tune".

A scale created by "ear" would be in Just Intonation - that is it would put each note on a resonant frequency from the starting note - which happens when the frequency is multiplied by integer ratios. Pythagorean scales are a subset of Just Intonation. All such notes are "in tune" and sound correct when played in a melody - but might sound awful when played in harmony. Basically, due to the mathematical properties of integer ratios there is a fundamental incompatibility between 5ths and 3rds generated in this type of scale - so a compromise is made - tempering (altering) the scale so that nothing sounds really bad - but also so that nothing sounds really good.

All of those things are very very audible.

I recently moved from tuning in Just fifths (702) cents (in Equal Temperament a 5th is 700 cents) to narrow fifths of 698 - as used apparently by Bach. It took a bit of getting used to but the double stops sound a lot sweeter and I'm happier with this.

Yes I can tell the difference in many ways - but that would take quite a lot more writing to explain...

Coupedefleur - Posted - 07/21/2008:  05:52:27

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Oops- I meant to say ".. a tuning uses pure intervals"

quote:

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Originally posted by Klondike Waldo

[quote]Originally posted by Coupedefleur

Technically, a temperament uses pure intervals to produce the notes in an octave, and a temperament mis-tunes them for one reason or another.

snip

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the rest of the post makes sense, but is there something missing in this first sentence?

deligo ergo renideo

Sue B. - Posted - 08/31/2008:  13:54:09

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I really like violin played in tune, which the tempered scale ain't. It can be interesting to play with piano accompaniment, though if you like your 3rds and 7ths up a little. The further from key of C you go, the worser it gets. I have read that the harpsichordists in Baroque times sometimes tuned in the key the orchestra, etc., was going to be using. Sue

scrubber - Posted - 08/31/2008:  14:14:14

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sue B.

II have read that the harpsichordists in Baroque times sometimes tuned in the key the orchestra, etc., was going to be using. Sue

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This still happens! Many guitar players fall into this category. How many times have you heard them retuning when the key of the next tune changes? This is due to them trying to get the tonic key of the next song 'dead in tune'....

abinigia - Posted - 08/31/2008:  17:10:36

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I think the issue is mostly important in discussing how to TUNE the instrument. If you tune a fiddle to perfect fifths your open strings will not be the same as if you tuned to a piano or guitar or any other modern chord playing instrument. Same thing if you tune to a standard electronic tuner. I think the G string on a fiddle would be noticeably flatter using perfect 5ths tuned from the A string than tuning in equal temperament. I asked a classical player friend of mine about tuning with the orchestra and he was pretty sure they tuned to perfect 5ths. But since I play fiddle tunes with other instruments - guitars and banjos and such, I use a tuner and play with tempered open strings.

Brian Wood

mikey - Posted - 09/01/2008:  07:26:39

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A piano is a good example of how equal tempered tuning doesn't work. If we used perfect mathematical equal tempered tuning, the piano would be ringing with harmonics and beat frequencies. Since a piano can't be instantly adjusted, we simply tune to it when playing. Other instruments such as guitar, mandolin, banjo, ect have a much smaller range of notes that won't give us the same problem.

MIKEY


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