rcc - Posted - 07/12/2012:  23:56:09

I'm not Dave but I'll put my 2 cents in.

You can get a good strong accent on an upbow. Plenty people do. But I think for most people, it's hard to keep that note strong for very long. I think most people find it easier to get a good strong *long* note on a downbow than an upbow. So downbow accenting is more common.

And as usual in fiddling, for every rules, there's exceptions.

Plus if you work at something, you get better at it. And you can certainly work at getting your upbow to be as good (or close enough) as your downbow.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/13/2012:  03:24:19

Pogo, seems to me you are a very good fidder who is compelled to both analyze and discuss...I've learned a lot from your discussions and all the back and forth...even though i get exhausted thinking about it. I do compare it with my fingerpicking guitar style for reference but then I get exhausted with that too....seems to me bowing patterns are right there with Schroedinger's Cat...they both exist and don't exist at the same time! Thanks for the discussion...you've enlightened me and given me stuff to wonder about for probably the rest of my life...my back burners are all full!

Fiddler - Posted - 07/13/2012:  06:47:03

Yes, this discussion is very interesting! This detailed analysis of bowing is great and some people have this strong analytical bent. I appreciate that.  It helps others (and me!) to understand what is happening and what defines a particular "style" or "sound."

I like to think of bowing in the same vein as how I think about dancing. Dancing is nothing more than walking - one foot in front of the other in time with the beat of the music and the phrase of the music.  Yes, there is a basic pattern for each type - waltz, polka,  2-step, 1-step, gallop, schottishe, swing, etc. (fast-slow-fast-fast /  slow, slow, pause / etc.) Contra and square dances for the most part really don't require fancy foot work - just walking.  From there it is nothing more than a combination of patterns and figuring out how to negotiate a turn, swing, etc.   The tricky part is that the male (usually) must lead and discretely communicate the pattern to his partner such that they move as a unit.  For me, all of this was a huge revelation and has great aided my dancing enjoyment!

Ok - let's NOT get into all of the finer details of dancing and what constitutes "good form." Let's save that for the ball room dance contest discussion thread!

So, here's to the enjoyment of life, bowing and dancing!  <Lifts a filled champagne glass in a toast.>

dsreiner - Posted - 07/13/2012:  07:30:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

Good posts.

Let me pick your brain some more dave. Do you think bowing directions should be arranged so accented beats fall on the downbow? Or do you believe upbows and downbows can be both be accented with generally equal ease?  This is something FP and I keep going around about, and i just want your opinion.

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Hi IdleHands-

Interesting question, although rather focused on bow directions given the title of the thread :-)

Here's my two cents, thinking first in terms of accents:

1. Accents are important to just about all fiddle styles.  A good fiddler can produce accents with a downbow or an upbow or a pulse in the middle of a bow stroke.  A fiddler doesn't need to be consistent about which of these is used, although some fiddlers are.  A fiddler doesn't need to think about which of these is used, although some fiddlers do.

2. A fiddler may favor a particular direction (down or up) for accents, but I don't think there's anything intrinsically easier or better in general about either direction.

3. There are additional ways to accent a note that don't involve bow direction, such as adding a quick double stop (oldtime) or throwing in an ornament before an accented note (Irish).

4. Some patterns have accents in both directions (Nashville shuffle, middle shuffle [duDuUuDu], Tommy's shuffle).

5. Some patterns seem to limit accents to one direction (saw stroke, Georgia shuffle).  I personally favor downbow accents in Georgia shuffle, but a few fiddlers switch this around.

6. In a particular style, certain techniques do seem to favor a particular bow direction at certain points. For example, you can get a lilting touch in Irish jigs from upbows slurred into the beat.  And oldtime bow rocking from higher to lower strings seems to be easier with a dudu pattern than udud because the circles described by your right hand are more compact. And ghost notes (x) in a New England shuffle [duduxudu] seem more controllable with a downbow.  And a bluegrass fiddle kickoff is traditionally dudU-U- | D... , which is more difficult in reverse.

Best regards,

Dave

P.S. Sorry to take a little while to respond.  I'm in Beijing this week with not much free time.

IdleHands - Posted - 07/13/2012:  19:17:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsreiner

2. A fiddler may favor a particular direction (down or up) for accents, but I don't think there's anything intrinsically easier or better in general about either direction.

 

 

Here we have it everybody. The expert clearly agrees with me in all cases.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/14/2012:  08:26:18

Dave,

You said:

"2. A fiddler may favor a particular direction (down or up) for accents, but I don't think there's anything intrinsically easier or better in general about either direction."



"5. Some patterns seem to limit accents to one direction (saw stroke, Georgia shuffle). I personally favor downbow accents in Georgia shuffle, but a few fiddlers switch this around."



These two statements don't seem to be saying the same thing. Could you clarify???

If #2 were true, I think the spread of Georgia Shuffle users would be close to 50/50, but my observations agree with your statement in #5 that only "a few fiddlers" reverse this. And in my observation, the few fiddlers are MUCH more likely to be Old Time than Bluegrass.  Georgia Shuffle offers the potential for a backbeat accent that lines up with the Bluegrass chopping, which is usually pretty extreme. So it's NOT a trivial choice for Bluegrass fiddlers... could it possibly be a case of them "choosing the best tool for the job"?



Also, in my admittedly limited experience with Bluegrass and Double Shuffle, which is essentially just sawstroke with accents every third note, I have never seen ANYONE bow it

up-down, up-down, instead of down-up, down up.



As a fiddler with much more experience in Bluegrass and the Double Shuffle, maybe you can explain this, because it puzzles me. Inquiring minds want to KNOW!!!



Since Bluegrass players tend to want SPEED, clean tone, and an overall virtuosic performance, the fact that they in particular seem to be biased to one particular direction for Georgia Shuffle (downbow accent), and one particular direction for Double Shuffle (down-up, down up) makes me think that there must be SOME technical advantage to it. But maybe I'm wrong, and the bias in one direction I see is just because of tradition.



Again, you being more experienced in Bluegrass and Double Shuffle than I (I have only made a few feeble attempts at learning it), perhaps you could explain it.

 

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 07/14/2012 08:38:38

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/14/2012:  12:57:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsreiner

.... thinking first in terms of accents:

1. Accents are important to just about all fiddle styles. 

---

 This has been my view, the layout of accents is important to give the rhythmic feel. However, most folks just think of accent as a note mostly being louder, (sometimes in just a binary way).  But there are many different types of accents and they can be combined to in different ways to give each a certain weight and contrasts.

Accent - a feature that stands out from it's surrounding

So the one that comes to mind can be called a dynamic accent, and indeed it can come in a whole range of  from soft to loud. Accents can be created by differences in pitch, weight based on distance, but also on if in strong or weak harmonic space. Just using that, without making any notes louder, can create a rhythmic pattern. Accents are created by different time distance between notes; like quarter eighth eighth, long short short, for example. Again just using that can create a rhythmic pattern. The last one can also be about some other aspects, like making the distance between eighth notes not equal (like what some folks do in jigs); playing on the front of the beat; as well how much of the space between the notes is filled with sustained sound (that's part of the slur sound). There even more possible ways to accents that include timbre and noise (like the attack sound when a bow is changed. Again, like dynamic loudness, most of these aspects are not just binary, two dimentional, black or white.

I would not recommend though to micro analyze all of these. The reason I analyzed this had to do with trying to enter it all into a computer, it is quite complex.  Just pointing out there are lot's of different possibilities that musicians can use and combined to create a rhythmic texture/feel.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 07/14/2012:  20:29:06

I try and practice safe bowing so that my acc'ents are few and far between.  

IdleHands - Posted - 07/15/2012:  08:07:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

I try and practice safe bowing so that my acc'ents are few and far between.  

 

 

 

 

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Booo humbled,  booo.....   Now you're just trying too hard.  LOL.  ;^).   But that just shows you care.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 07/15/2012:  14:22:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peghead

Actually, I think "just do it" is very good advice, you can think about it and form opinions after the doing. Style and approach are extensions or our personalities and we're all going to do it our way. It's great to share and view the diversity.  I'm not selling or a advocating, just sharing my thoughts and opinions. 

---

I've taught a few people to fiddle and while they were learning they bowed like I suggested and sounded pretty much like me.  However after they were on their own they quickly started sounding like themselves...Each musician, especially good musicians, play from the heart.  They might even look like they are using a similar bowing style but how it is APPLIED makes a big difference. Any part of a bow stroke can receive more or less emphasis or any part of a rhythm can sound different from one musician to another.  . My advice... listen to others, learn from others, play like yourself and play from your HEART.   LEE

IdleHands - Posted - 07/15/2012:  14:59:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peghead

Actually, I think "just do it" is very good advice, you can think about it and form opinions after the doing. Style and approach are extensions or our personalities and we're all going to do it our way. It's great to share and view the diversity.  I'm not selling or a advocating, just sharing my thoughts and opinions. 

---

I've taught a few people to fiddle and while they were learning they bowed like I suggested and sounded pretty much like me.  However after they were on their own they quickly started sounding like themselves...Each musician, especially good musicians, play from the heart.  They might even look like they are using a similar bowing style but how it is APPLIED makes a big difference. Any part of a bow stroke can receive more or less emphasis or any part of a rhythm can sound different from one musician to another.  . My advice... listen to others, learn from others, play like yourself and play from your HEART.   LEE

---

Or, people can just learn on their own and play like themselves from the beginning.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 07/15/2012:  15:48:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peghead

Actually, I think "just do it" is very good advice, you can think about it and form opinions after the doing. Style and approach are extensions or our personalities and we're all going to do it our way. It's great to share and view the diversity.  I'm not selling or a advocating, just sharing my thoughts and opinions. 

---

I've taught a few people to fiddle and while they were learning they bowed like I suggested and sounded pretty much like me.  However after they were on their own they quickly started sounding like themselves...Each musician, especially good musicians, play from the heart.  They might even look like they are using a similar bowing style but how it is APPLIED makes a big difference. Any part of a bow stroke can receive more or less emphasis or any part of a rhythm can sound different from one musician to another.  . My advice... listen to others, learn from others, play like yourself and play from your HEART.   LEE

---

Or, people can just learn on their own and play like themselves from the beginning.

---

True, that is how I did it.  A lot of people want a little guidance and encouragement.  That is what an instructor is for.  

IdleHands - Posted - 07/15/2012:  16:59:31

Maybe an instructor should say "you can do it on your own!"!

IdleHands - Posted - 07/15/2012:  17:04:07

Im gonna start giving lessons. 1000$ an hour. And i tell my students to quit being babies and go read about it and then practice. And listen to some stuff online to know what in tune sounds like, and leave me alone.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 07/15/2012:  17:08:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

Maybe an instructor should say "you can do it on your own!"!

---

That would eliminate the need for most schools.  Lets just give each family a stack of books and have the kids teach themselves.   How did you learn to play?   I DID teach myself, and I don't recommend it for most people.  It was a rough way to go.

IdleHands - Posted - 07/15/2012:  18:32:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

Maybe an instructor should say "you can do it on your own!"!

---

That would eliminate the need for most schools.  Lets just give each family a stack of books and have the kids teach themselves.   How did you learn to play?   I DID teach myself, and I don't recommend it for most people.  It was a rough way to go.

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Self taught.  I think its the best way.  Nobody to tell you what you cant do, or whats impossible.  etc.  But i guess some people want more than that, and thats cool.  I realize my business plan would probably not work out well.

Carter - Posted - 07/16/2012:  01:49:11

Perhaps being self taught is the best way for you, but it certainly isn't for everyone. A good teacher can be both a motivator and an accelerator. One should certainly not be a hinderence (though bad ones can be hugely).

I feel like I can speak to this because I've learned one instrument (guitar) to what I think is a satisfactory level of proficiency, a few other instruments to not so satisfactory levels in the same manner, and fiddle under a teacher (a bad one first and a good one second). The rate at which I've learned the fiddle has most certainly trumped the rate at which I learned guitar. There are, admittedly, many variables to consider. However, the difference in the times it took me to get to a level I'm happy with is staggering. It's almost certainly entirely because of my teacher and the tools he provided me.

It almost sounds like you want absolutely no advice from anyone. I mean would you really not accept a lesson from Bruce Molsky or someone similar if they offered? If they started talking, in favor, about all these things you so aggressively argue against, would you really not listen?

Edited by - Carter on 07/16/2012 01:52:31

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/16/2012:  04:44:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

Yes, this discussion is very interesting! This detailed analysis of bowing is great and some people have this strong analytical bent. I appreciate that.  It helps others (and me!) to understand what is happening and what defines a particular "style" or "sound."

I like to think of bowing in the same vein as how I think about dancing. Dancing is nothing more than walking - one foot in front of the other in time with the beat of the music and the phrase of the music.  Yes, there is a basic pattern for each type - waltz, polka,  2-step, 1-step, gallop, schottishe, swing, etc. (fast-slow-fast-fast /  slow, slow, pause / etc.) Contra and square dances for the most part really don't require fancy foot work - just walking.  From there it is nothing more than a combination of patterns and figuring out how to negotiate a turn, swing, etc.   The tricky part is that the male (usually) must lead and discretely communicate the pattern to his partner such that they move as a unit.  For me, all of this was a huge revelation and has great aided my dancing enjoyment!

Ok - let's NOT get into all of the finer details of dancing and what constitutes "good form." Let's save that for the ball room dance contest discussion thread!

So, here's to the enjoyment of life, bowing and dancing! 

---

I think the bowing patterns analogy to dance foot steps (or patterns) is a bit tenuous; as it's comparing different levels and aspects of rhythm.

Then again, I do notice sometimes concept and approach to dance is much like how they approach music. So some folks take an incredibly analytical approach and think dancing is just what the feet are doing (with perhaps the hands and arms), in the time of the music. From that perspective, contras and square dance is mostly just walking, in time.

For other folks dancing is just more about the rhythmic feel, the sensation of the whole body's weight and balance as it shifts and flows through space and time. It engages more than the feet and arms, but the whole (often noticeable in how the knees, hips and core moves). The music isn't just serving as a metronome to know when to step, but guides the whole body in motion. They respond to what feel the musicians play, including any slight twist and variation.  Dancing with another is not just about syncronized timing, but giving and feeling "weight' , balance and counterbalance, so that you really "feel" like moving as one unit. IMO, musicians who understand that feel (generally direct experience) play the music I like better than those who "dance" is a bit more of an abstract, intellectual or analytical concept.