dsreiner - Posted - 07/11/2012:  00:23:29

Hello fiddling friends-

I thought I'd make the quick point that bowing "patterns" are about much more than bow direction.



As part of the description of a bowing workshop, I once wrote: "The rhythmic drive, flow of notes, and liveliness of a fiddle tune owe much to the often intricate patterns woven by the fiddler's bow. Bowing patterns include not just sequences of downbows and upbows, but also rhythmic groupings and slurs, accents and pulses, chops and anticipations, bow rocking and string crossings, crunches and ghost notes, and variations (intended or not) from one time to the next through a phrase or tune."



Many fiddlers want to achieve a certain sound or style on the fiddle - perhaps the traditional style of a region, or an ethnic group, or a particular fiddler they like. Some fiddlers approach this process by focusing directly on rhythm and sound quality; others think in terms of patterns that lead to these same goals. Some do both.



And all are interested in playing better and more effortlessly - "in the moment."

Dave

P.S. We've had some long threads on bowing on the Hangout.  Just remember that describing bowing is not the same as divining intentions of the fiddler, nor should describing be equated with prescribing.

 

justme - Posted - 07/11/2012:  02:06:46

sounds like what we all wish to achieve, otherwise we would all be on a classical violin website instead of hanging out in the best fiddle site.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/11/2012:  04:55:44

Well said.

Having observed some folks who try and follow the "direction/pattern" and are completely frustrated because it doesn't automatically create the rhythmic flow and groove. I try point out some concepts of flow, using the sawstroke. Literally, as an example, sawing a piece of wood. You push forward, zip; you pull back, zap. But instead of just direction, if you pay attention to the ends of the stroke, how it changes direction, taking the momentum and rounding, the action gets flow and you find you can do it faster and less effort. (if you listen to the sound it is a bit different).

I missed much of the long discussions.

I did want to comment about "pattern" and "anywhichway" - 1. "Anywhichway" seems like it's meant as a derogatory label, and I can't help but picture someone flailing about in a complete random chaotic way (and their rhythm sounds like it). 2. just because someone doesn't work in terms of bowing patterns doesn't mean they don't work on bowing. They are working directly on sound as it pertains to rhythm, and flow, and also how the bowing kinesthetic feel, what feels right and effortless; finding what works for them. Perhaps a few different possibilities. 3. part of the discussion is in how you define "pattern" in pattern bowing.

I also wanted to add that the most significant difference I notice between fiddlers doesn't START with the bow directions, patterns, bow hold, but STARTS with what's inside the fiddler. Was at a festival a few years ago, asked various fiddlers when they were away from their fiddles - "I'm trying to remember how this tune goes?" One went "deedededeededeteedeet...." indeed it sounded like they fiddle, didn't sound bad, in tune and in time,but  not overly exciting, kind of just the sequence of notes. Went over and asked a really good fiddler and he went something like "DOP-a-Dupe-a-diddle-abopa-DOpa -dupe di-DAH...." (don't know if that quite captured it) but though the same essential notes, both IIRC were essentially just sawstroke; it was significantly different and exciting, something that made you feel like dancing - and much like he plays the tune. Something to think about.

IdleHands - Posted - 07/11/2012:  06:20:38

Good posts.

Let me pick your brain some more dave. Do you think bowing directions should be arranged so accented beats fall on the downbow? Or do you believe upbows and downbows can be both be accented with generally equal ease?  This is something FP and I keep going around about, and i just want your opinion.

Edited by - IdleHands on 07/11/2012 06:26:20

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  06:23:59

Good points.



Perhaps a way of illustrating it is this:



In the early 70's when I started, a lot of younger fiddlers were using Nashville Shuffle, and I got tired of hearing it.



I thought I was tired of the PATTERN.... but over the years, especially recently, I noticed how DIFFERENTLY fiddlers play Nashville Shuffle... and, noticing the differences, I find the Nashville pattern doesn't bother me anymore, at least when OTHER fiddlers use it.

I'm thinking (although I can't go back to the 70's and listen) that the problem I was having with Nashville was that young fiddlers of about the same age, who jammed together and with the same rock background and not much listening experience in Old Time were tending to play that same pattern with very nearly identical phrasing to each other.

One of the problems of on-line bowing discussion is that while patterns are difficult enought to discuss (since they cause headaches if your brain just doesn't want to GO there!) the other things Dave mentions tend to be EVEN HARDER to discuss, except to mention that they exist.

In that respect, patterns are a lot like music notation-  notation is just a basic skeletal representation of a tune, and a pattern is only a basic starting place to describe what a fiddler is doing with the bow.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 07/11/2012 06:31:43

IdleHands - Posted - 07/11/2012:  06:45:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

Well said.

Having observed some folks who try and follow the "direction/pattern" and are completely frustrated because it doesn't automatically create the rhythmic flow and groove.

---

Right, because the flow comes from practice (playing) , and any pattern can flow, hence naming them isnt really necessary.

Edited by - IdleHands on 07/11/2012 06:53:16

DeamhanFola - Posted - 07/11/2012:  07:53:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

Good posts.

 

Let me pick your brain some more dave. Do you think bowing directions should be arranged so accented beats fall on the downbow? Or do you believe upbows and downbows can be both be accented with generally equal ease?  This is something FP and I keep going around about, and i just want your opinion.

---

I'm of the opinion that a fiddler should be capable of accenting with both up AND downbows. Back in the 80s neo-classical electric guitar days I read an interview with one of the players (Paul Gilbert?) who said that a guitarist should be able to play a note with equal power whether picking up or down, contradicting the theory that downstrokes are inherently more powerful. This may be so without practice and deliberate intent, but it needn't always be the case.

Accents can be provided from increases/ decreases in bow speed, bow pressure, etc, not merely up or down direction. I practice to have the potential to accent whatever direction my bow is headed. There are perhaps some limitations to this depending on personal style and the demands of the tune (Kevin Burke, for example, says that 99% of the time he begins triplets on a downbow), but I don't want laziness / lack of proficiency to limit my options.

Gary Lee Moore - Posted - 07/11/2012:  08:25:27

I don't have a pattern.
Dynamics are way more important to me than any bowing pattern.

caterwauler - Posted - 07/11/2012:  08:32:26

I don't focus on learning specific patterns for a couple reasons: I tried it, and was so focused on keeping to a pattern, the sound/groove suffered. Also, if I made a mistake, I felt more compelled to get back to a pattern than to just play through it (improvise).

I accent on either down or up bows, because I don't don't think I play it exactly the same way twice. ;)

What Alaskafiddler said (mainly point 2) is how I approach it. I'm fairly certain as I'm learning a tune I'm picking up and playing the patterns, but it's not my focus. Making it sound 'right' to me is. I couldn't tell someone what pattern I play or if I start on a down bow to save my life... :/ :)

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  08:58:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

Good posts.

 

Let me pick your brain some more dave. Do you think bowing directions should be arranged so accented beats fall on the downbow? Or do you believe upbows and downbows can be both be accented with generally equal ease?  This is something FP and I keep going around about, and i just want your opinion.

---

Dave IS a busy man (he's writin' a BOOK about bowing!) and in case he takes a while answering, you could read this thread he started only weeks after the Fiddle Hangout opened:

fiddlehangout.com/topic/233

IdleHands - Posted - 07/11/2012:  09:00:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

Good posts.

 

Let me pick your brain some more dave. Do you think bowing directions should be arranged so accented beats fall on the downbow? Or do you believe upbows and downbows can be both be accented with generally equal ease?  This is something FP and I keep going around about, and i just want your opinion.

---

Dave IS a busy man (he's writin' a BOOK about bowing!) and in case he takes a while answering, you could read this thread he started only weeks after the Fiddle Hangout opened:

fiddlehangout.com/topic/233

 

---

I'm still waiting for his personal anwer to this direct question, if you don't mind.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  09:21:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by caterwauler

I don't focus on learning specific patterns for a couple reasons: I tried it, and was so focused on keeping to a pattern, the sound/groove suffered. Also, if I made a mistake, I felt more compelled to get back to a pattern than to just play through it (improvise).



 

---

One of the problems is that while a particular pattern may have a LOT of rhythmic potential, there may be a technical trick to doing it that needs to be practiced in order to unlock the potential.

There were two patterns that I LEARNED in the 1970's, but had not actually learned to apply in my playing by the time I quit playing for 15 years in 1990.

AFTER the hiatus, I kept on working on them, and first one, then the other "clicked".  They are both so useful that I can hardly imagine fiddling without them, and yet I did for a long time.  And I can hardly imagine that I almost gave up on them.  One allows me to syncopate in a way I never could before, and another allows me to get a bouncier rhythm than I ever could before.  And I REALLY like syncopation.  And I REALLY like bounce!

(BTW, aside to Alaskafiddler, these two patterns TOTALLY express my mental conception of how I want my fiddling to sound like)

I came up with idea of putting a pattern on the back burner to describe what seems to work for me.

The chances of integrating a newly learned pattern into a tune you know and have it NOT cause the groove to suffer are slim to none... it's not the pattern's fault, it's the fault of it not being FAMILIAR enough yet.

It's sort of like when a car tries to merge onto the freeway that isn't GOING FAST ENOUGH.... tends to mess up the flow of traffic, slow things down, sometimes to a SCREECHING halt.

You have to practice the pattern separately from your main stuff until it feels as COMFORTABLE as your main stuff.

THEN you stand a good chance of integrating it with the rest of your playing without problems.

My solution is to use certain parts of certain tunes as a "test bed" for patterns.

First I practice them on a double stop or a unison until I'm moderately comfortable with them.  Then I put them in the "test bed" section.  When they are comfortable there, I play the whole tune including that pattern at a tempo that seems comfortable for the pattern.  Then, I bring the tune with the new pattern up to it's normal speed.

Once I do that, I usually don't even have to THINK about using the pattern... it just spreads into other tunes where it feels right by itself.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 07/11/2012 09:22:29

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  09:41:08

Something that should be observed.

One of the main proponents for patterns is an Old Time player, Brad Leftwich.
Bluegrass players use certain patterns specific to hearken back to a particular Old Time fiddle sound.
I find patterns very useful to get this characteristic Old Time sound.
In fact the vast majority of the fiddlers who use Nashville Shuffle most of the time are interested in Old Time.

The essential difference is what Bruce Molsky once called "bowing percussively" and I call "playing drums with the bow".

Now, not ALL Old Time fiddlers did this, but with those that did, it produced a very distinctive percussive effect that is very Old Time, and really only fits in Old Time. Part of bowing percussively is that if a phrase is repeated in a tune (and many Old Time tunes have repetive phrases) finding a rhythmic pattern that fits the melodic phrase and repeating the pattern along with the phrase heightens the sense of groove and danceability.

While I find having practiced patterns helps my phrasing over all, when I try and play tunes from another genre,
I back off on the patterns since I'm not trying to get an Old Time hoedown groove.... it would be totally out of place.
Occasionally a pattern slips into place as an easy way of phrasing such a tune, but it's in such a not rhythmic way that I doubt anyone would be able to pick it out.

Anyway, if you are playing another style, one that goes for a much smoother feel, it does not surprise me if patterns don't seem important to you... since they are not nearly as important to me when I try and play other, smoother styles.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  09:54:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by DeamhanFola

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

Good posts.

 

Let me pick your brain some more dave. Do you think bowing directions should be arranged so accented beats fall on the downbow? Or do you believe upbows and downbows can be both be accented with generally equal ease?  This is something FP and I keep going around about, and i just want your opinion.

---

I'm of the opinion that a fiddler should be capable of accenting with both up AND downbows. Back in the 80s neo-classical electric guitar days I read an interview with one of the players (Paul Gilbert?) who said that a guitarist should be able to play a note with equal power whether picking up or down, contradicting the theory that downstrokes are inherently more powerful. This may be so without practice and deliberate intent, but it needn't always be the case.

 

Accents can be provided from increases/ decreases in bow speed, bow pressure, etc, not merely up or down direction. I practice to have the potential to accent whatever direction my bow is headed. There are perhaps some limitations to this depending on personal style and the demands of the tune (Kevin Burke, for example, says that 99% of the time he begins triplets on a downbow), but I don't want laziness / lack of proficiency to limit my options.

---

I'm a LITTLE leery of applying guitar stuff to fiddle... it's pretty different (I play electric guitar with a flatpick myself).

And also, '80s rock guitar was rife with "neoclassical" players who were into havinf the ability to play scales at top speed, so fast you wouldn't be able to make out individual notes, and THEN playing with a level of distortion that would guarantee you couldn't actually HEAR the results of their virtuosity- the whole thing seems quite insane!

Things like the difference between upstrokes and downstrokes often CAN be at least partially remedied with more and more practice.... BUT:

1. If you're playing a tradtional music genre, you're playing a style formed at least partially by players who didn't have unlimited time.

2. There is your own life, your own available time, and your own goals to consider.

If you have unlimited time, and your goal is to be the best fiddler in the world, have at it.

If your time is limited, and you have more modest goals, then picking a more limited subset of all the technical possibilities and focusing on techniques that give you high "bang for the buck" seems appropriate.

SamY - Posted - 07/11/2012:  10:01:22

Seems to me that to those who already have the ability to get the sound they want, thoughts of patterns don't matter.

Those that are looking to develop a certain sound, and have been unable to get it naturally or intuitively, patterns might be a way to get there.

That's my 2 cents. Now the argument can continue.....

boxbow - Posted - 07/11/2012:  10:04:05

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.  The postscript of the original post, together with the title of the post, coupled with my own proclivities, suggest that the point of this thread is that "bow directions" may refer to "bow dogma."  Fact is, we're all just trying to make the tune come out right, which is a very subjective condition.  I have read far,far,far,far,far too many words posted on the subject.  I blame myself, I really do.  I could have ignored them, but I'm glad I read Dave's OP and alaskafiddller's post.  It's clear that nobody advocates the slavish adherence to some kind of Arthur Murray approach to bowing.  You may recall the Arthur Murray school of dance instruction where footprints were painted on the floor and you simply stepped on them, hopefully in time to some music, but probably not.  That's not how dance works.  Playing music is a synergistic affair.  Nobody, and I mean NOBODY here denies that patterns alone do not good playing make, or if they do, they've kept quiet.  Insofar as analysis or the deconstruction of a tune goes, there may be some utility.  Sadly, I have the attention span of a gnat.  Despite the good intentions of the pattern bower's attempts to clarify matters, matters remain muddy.  I still have to make the dang tune sound right, and it's almost exclusively a non-verbal affair.  And you know what?  Those inclined to spot patterns will probably find them in my bowing.  I hope so, it only makes sense that they be there.

If we're not careful, bowing patterns may wind up on the restricted topics list, which I admire for it's current brevity.

p.s.  Anybody remember the movie "Strictly Ballroom?"  Among the very many great attributes of this flick is the way it highlights the difference between dance as expression of feeling and dance as a reiteration of dogma.  Does your bowing communicate to the listener?  There isn't a wrong answer here, but I sure like it when the tune comes out good. 

Edited by - boxbow on 07/11/2012 10:20:14

Swing - Posted - 07/11/2012:  10:06:08

I feel that the pattern here is that the whole thing is going to get beaten to death again!

Play Happy

NCarolinaFiddler - Posted - 07/11/2012:  10:20:30

So in other words I'm never gonna figure it all out.

forestabri - Posted - 07/11/2012:  10:59:28

I copy other people in order to attempt to get the sound and feel of difficult tunes. In watching and listening, I take note of certain phrases and how they flow from one to the next. Usually I do this when a tune just boggles my mind, which at the moment happens to be "Wolves A Howling".  Patterns come into play when I am learning a tune, and I don't try to analyze them by name but by what effect they have on the bounce, drive and feel of the tune as it was played by the person I'm learning from. There is a youtube video of Rayna Gellert and John Hermann playing "Wolves a Howling" at a campsite at Swannanoa. Notice how the banjo and fiddle dovetail togeteher perfectly, seamlessly! I've found that slowing it down allows me to pick up the notes and phrases that repeat, BUT,  then I have to play it at normal speed to get the feel of it, because as Dave points out, it's much more than just notes and bow direction to get a tune to sound right. Brad Leftwich and other peoples descriptions and explanations of "patterns" has made the process much easier than it would be if I were to just "wing it" in any blissful manner that I choose! So there is a very good reason to learn from seasoned pros, especially if we want this music to survive with integrity.

KCFiddles - Posted - 07/11/2012:  11:54:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

I did want to comment about "pattern" and "anywhichway" - 1. "Anywhichway" seems like it's meant as a derogatory label, and I can't help but picture someone flailing about in a complete random chaotic way (and their rhythm sounds like it). 2. just because someone doesn't work in terms of bowing patterns doesn't mean they don't work on bowing. They are working directly on sound as it pertains to rhythm, and flow, and also how the bowing kinesthetic feel, what feels right and effortless; finding what works for them. Perhaps a few different possibilities. 3. part of the discussion is in how you define "pattern" in pattern bowing.

I also wanted to add that the most significant difference I notice between fiddlers doesn't START with the bow directions, patterns, bow hold, but STARTS with what's inside the fiddler. Was at a festival a few years ago, asked various fiddlers when they were away from their fiddles - "I'm trying to remember how this tune goes?" One went "deedededeededeteedeet...." indeed it sounded like they fiddle, didn't sound bad, in tune and in time,but  not overly exciting, kind of just the sequence of notes. Went over and asked a really good fiddler and he went something like "DOP-a-Dupe-a-diddle-abopa-DOpa -dupe di-DAH...." (don't know if that quite captured it) but though the same essential notes, both IIRC were essentially just sawstroke; it was significantly different and exciting, something that made you feel like dancing - and much like he plays the tune. Something to think about.

---

I think you and Dave R and GLM have pretty well summed up this issue. Maybe we can put it to rest, now.

I too find the term "anywhichway bowing" derogatory and highly misleading, a tawdry rhetorical device. In the all too likely case another of these annoying and near-pointless threads arises again, I vote that bowing based on the tune first, rather than a preconceived pattern, be called "tune first" or "tune-driven" bowing, since you decide how to bow a tune based on how you want it to sound, and on how you have to bow to get the articulation you want.

Gary Lee Moore - Posted - 07/11/2012:  12:40:27

Ugh

tonyelder - Posted - 07/11/2012:  12:45:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by NCarolinaFiddler

So in other words I'm never gonna figure it all out.

---

"...never give up, never surrender!"  Jason Nesmith

tonyelder - Posted - 07/11/2012:  13:31:39

Originally posted by boxbow



It's clear that nobody advocates the slavish adherence to some kind of Arthur Murray approach to bowing.  You may recall the Arthur Murray school of dance instruction where footprints were painted on the floor and you simply stepped on them, hopefully in time to some music, but probably not.  That's not how dance works.  Playing music is a synergistic affair.  Nobody, and I mean NOBODY here denies that patterns alone do not good playing make, or if they do, they've kept quiet.   

Well, I believe a case could be made that would go a long way to disprove your assertion. Judge for yourself.

This can be read from a post in this very thread: 

You have to practice the pattern separately from your main stuff until it feels as COMFORTABLE as your main stuff.

THEN you stand a good chance of integrating it with the rest of your playing without problems.

I'm not going to accuse the author of doing anything but revealing what he feels is absolutely necessary for him to do - in order to reach the goals he has set for himself as a fiddler. His approach is valid for him, his approach has produced results for him. Based on those results, I would say that his approach is worth serious consideration. And I would suggest - we should expect him to be sharing his methods and approach - if he is satisfied with the way it is working for him. His methods will likely be a great way for some folks to learn. I'm sure Arthur Murray made good money selling his method, and I can imagine there were some folks who did learn some things from following his methods. But it certainly was not / is not for everyone.

No single approach is going to be best for everyone. For that reason, no method should be promoted as the only approach that will produce results. And when anyone promotes a single method as the only way / or even the BEST method - they should expect that their words are going to rub other folks the wrong way.  

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/11/2012 13:44:11

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  14:32:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swing

I feel that the pattern here is that the whole thing is going to get beaten to death again!

Play Happy

---

Not by me.

I'm DONE.

fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/bl...ogid=7225

IdleHands - Posted - 07/11/2012:  17:12:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swing

I feel that the pattern here is that the whole thing is going to get beaten to death again!

Play Happy

---

Not by me.

I'm DONE.

fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/bl...ogid=7225

---

Somehow I don't believe you.  LOL.

Carter - Posted - 07/11/2012:  18:37:58

Are there any prior forum posts where people have simply discussed their own unique paths to their current state of fiddling ability/knowledge?

I saw a few posts like that interspersed in the heated pattern discussions and they stood out to me more than anything else in those threads.  

I think sharing that information would be far more useful than simply volleying back and forth over who has the best method.

Perhaps it's not possible for something like that to run it's course without it turning into an argument.

Also... well said dsreiner. Particularly the postscript.

Edited by - Carter on 07/11/2012 18:43:00

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  19:08:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carter

Are there any prior forum posts where people have simply discussed their own unique paths to their current state of fiddling ability/knowledge?

I saw a few posts like that interspersed in the heated pattern discussions and they stood out to me more than anything else in those threads.  

I think sharing that information would be far more useful than simply volleying back and forth over who has the best method.

Perhaps it's not possible for something like that to run it's course without it turning into an argument.

Also... well said dsreiner. Particularly the postscript.

---

Been there, done that, nobody paid it any mind.  I kind of did it in this thread... the "back burner thing".

I'm sure the whole story is somewhere in one of those threads.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2012:  19:28:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swing

I feel that the pattern here is that the whole thing is going to get beaten to death again!

Play Happy

---

Not by me.

I'm DONE.

fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/bl...ogid=7225

---

Somehow I don't believe you.  LOL.

---

I figgered you'd say something like that, but you don't have a CLUE how done I am.

tonyelder - Posted - 07/11/2012:  19:43:32

I offered this in another recent thread about bowing, and I feel that it might be appropriate to repost and explanation:

I took some liberty. I copied something I thought was good. But I "x" out names and direct references to a person, and I added my edits in parathesis and red text - to show how I might say the same thing a little differently without changing the intent (imo) of the original author.

I agree with what this guy said:

Different people are wired differently- xxx xxxx xx xx (some are) wired for analysis of these kinds of things. Some aren't.

One valid approach is just to listen to a lot of the music (and watch a lot, if possible) and wing it. SOMETIMES you can actually accidentally learn one of the licks xx xxxx’s xxx that way.

I learned a couple of shuffles (bowing) that way- I was imitating the motions (listening to the sounds) more than analyzing the ups and downs of it.

SOMETIMES you can come up with your own good shuffles (bowing) or even a whole style that way.

And sometimes it helps to have it broken down and explained. But definitely try winging it sometimes, the results can be good.

And at some point, to make the music sound <alive>, you have to forget about analyzing direction and just play.

When I do that, I can watch myself, and it's like watching another person.

My conscious mind can <see> the different shuffles (bowing) happening, but it's

not calling the shots- my subconscious is.



In my opinion, it's the melody that determines the suitable shuffle (bowing) used.

I tend to use different shuffle (bowing) for different tunes.

Some tunes want to be slow and bouncy,

and some want to drive more intensely.

Each will get a different kind of shuffle (bowing).

That pretty much sums up my opinion and my approach. 

The guy who wrote that (if you couldn't guess) is Michael (fiddlepogo). He wrote it a few years back. And I think this lines up very well with what Dave and George has said - as well as what I've been trying to say.

I'm not saying that learning patterns is "bad", and I wouldn't suggest that it is a waste of time. It is one method of learning to play OT. And I will say that for some it is a method that has worked very well. But there are some (like me) that haven't really benefited from that method as much as I have benefited from the other methods that I been using and describing. I would like to think it is the same thing George described, as well as what Dave and even Michael have alluded to.

I have heard Carter play. I know patterns are a big part of his learning tools - thanks to David. And believe me, Carter plays well. Much better than I do.  But then he's been playing a few months longer than me - no wonder he's better.    And I'm pleased that he is doing so well. But I enjoy learning and playing the way I do - and we aren't competing. Besides, I've have received a few compliments from folks that I never expected to hear anything from - so, I'm not discouraged. (thank you)

Nevertheless, I admit - there may come a time when I have to suck it up and realize that I will have to do as Michael said "practice the pattern(s) separately from your main stuff until it feels as COMFORTABLE as your main stuff."  if I want to move any further forward with my learning. But from here and right now, I'm not seeing the need for it. And here is where I am now.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 07/11/2012:  20:37:36

A few facts folks.  

1) The total amount of bowing patterns in any setting remains constant over time.

​2) Bowing patterns may change ​location​ within the setting (or jam or session), but they can neither be created nor destroyed.  They simply are.

​3) To deny their existence it to deny reality.

​4) Bowing patterns consist of upstrokes, downstrokes--and rests or ornamentations or "ghost notes"--therein allowing "creation" of ponderable and imponderable stylistic differences within the patterns themselves, yet even in this transformative process the patterns retain the same mass and energy and as such do not change.

​You're welcome,

​Humbled

Carter - Posted - 07/11/2012:  22:56:45

Well, thanks for the kind words Tony. I sincerely hope I've not come across as dogmatic and intense as some of the other bowing posts read (to me anyway). Above all I'd advocate a person going about learning this instrument (or anything for that matter) in a manner that gives them the most enjoyment. 

For what it's worth even though I consider myself a pattern fiddler, I've very rarely practiced patterns separate from a tune. The only time that I can think of that I've done that was at the very beginning with what everyone calls the Nashville shuffle and with the so-called Tommy's lick. And really I only did that because my bowing ability was so poor in general it just helped me focus on using the bow instead of trying to keep track of playing a melody properly at the same time.

Finally, Humbled, energy is most certainly NOT conserved between patterns. Also, the physical properties of patterns are very similar to those of light, so the question of them having any mass at all is even a complicated one. I think you are just trolling us. I'm not that stupid.

Edited by - Carter on 07/11/2012 22:58:41

p1cklef1sh - Posted - 07/12/2012:  02:05:26

How to become a great fiddle player. 1. Listen to the recordings, 2. practice regularly. 3 Practice smart. 4. Jam with other musicians. One of the many aspects of fiddle music that makes it so much fun to play is the almost endless variations of bowing. There are as many ways to bow a tune as there are fiddlers. However, before you are set free to explore your own bowing, you should master what I call "down driven bowing". Gravity naturally gives your down bows a slight accent and makes up bows slightly weaker. When playing passages of a series of eighth or sixteenth notes as saw strokes, the rhythm sounds best when down bows are in the beat notes.
Keep in mind that down driven bowing is not an end all bow pattern. Students who master Down driven bowing have a great foundation from which to explore a world of creative bowing. -Brian Wicklund, American Fiddle Method volume 1.

Nuff said?

mudbug - Posted - 07/12/2012:  03:00:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

I'm gonna go out on a limb here.  The postscript of the original post, together with the title of the post, coupled with my own proclivities, suggest that the point of this thread is that "bow directions" may refer to "bow dogma."  Fact is, we're all just trying to make the tune come out right, which is a very subjective condition.  I have read far,far,far,far,far too many words posted on the subject.  I blame myself, I really do.  I could have ignored them, but I'm glad I read Dave's OP and alaskafiddller's post.  It's clear that nobody advocates the slavish adherence to some kind of Arthur Murray approach to bowing.  You may recall the Arthur Murray school of dance instruction where footprints were painted on the floor and you simply stepped on them, hopefully in time to some music, but probably not.  That's not how dance works.  Playing music is a synergistic affair.  Nobody, and I mean NOBODY here denies that patterns alone do not good playing make, or if they do, they've kept quiet.  Insofar as analysis or the deconstruction of a tune goes, there may be some utility.  Sadly, I have the attention span of a gnat.  Despite the good intentions of the pattern bower's attempts to clarify matters, matters remain muddy.  I still have to make the dang tune sound right, and it's almost exclusively a non-verbal affair.  And you know what?  Those inclined to spot patterns will probably find them in my bowing.  I hope so, it only makes sense that they be there.

If we're not careful, bowing patterns may wind up on the restricted topics list, which I admire for it's current brevity.

p.s.  Anybody remember the movie "Strictly Ballroom?"  Among the very many great attributes of this flick is the way it highlights the difference between dance as expression of feeling and dance as a reiteration of dogma.  Does your bowing communicate to the listener?  There isn't a wrong answer here, but I sure like it when the tune comes out good. 

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 Boxbow,  that might be the most astute analogy on this topic to date.  The  "Arthur Murray"  footprints were to teach non-dancers/beginning dancers how to move.  They did not make someone a dancer.  A real dancer would have just watched and done it.  Someone learning to bow a style might need those  "footprints"  to work things out,  but an advanced fiddler probably doesn't need or give much thought to them.  They just play.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 07/12/2012:  05:58:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carter

Well, thanks for the kind words Tony. I sincerely hope I've not come across as dogmatic and intense as some of the other bowing posts read (to me anyway). Above all I'd advocate a person going about learning this instrument (or anything for that matter) in a manner that gives them the most enjoyment. 

For what it's worth even though I consider myself a pattern fiddler, I've very rarely practiced patterns separate from a tune. The only time that I can think of that I've done that was at the very beginning with what everyone calls the Nashville shuffle and with the so-called Tommy's lick. And really I only did that because my bowing ability was so poor in general it just helped me focus on using the bow instead of trying to keep track of playing a melody properly at the same time.

Finally, Humbled, energy is most certainly NOT conserved between patterns. Also, the physical properties of patterns are very similar to those of light, so the question of them having any mass at all is even a complicated one. I think you are just trolling us. I'm not that stupid.

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Respectfully, Mr. Carter, if you look at the "space" betwixt these bowing patterns AND the mass associated within, my aforementioned precepts prove prodigiously plausible.

straightupstyle.blogspot.com/2...bows.html

Peghead - Posted - 07/12/2012:  08:13:43

If we can't talk about bowing what's left!

IdleHands - Posted - 07/12/2012:  08:19:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by p1cklef1sh

How to become a great fiddle player. 1. Listen to the recordings, 2. practice regularly. 3 Practice smart. 4. Jam with other musicians. One of the many aspects of fiddle music that makes it so much fun to play is the almost endless variations of bowing. There are as many ways to bow a tune as there are fiddlers. However, before you are set free to explore your own bowing, you should master what I call "down driven bowing". Gravity naturally gives your down bows a slight accent and makes up bows slightly weaker. When playing passages of a series of eighth or sixteenth notes as saw strokes, the rhythm sounds best when down bows are in the beat notes.

Keep in mind that down driven bowing is not an end all bow pattern. Students who master Down driven bowing have a great foundation from which to explore a world of creative bowing. -Brian Wicklund, American Fiddle Method volume 1.



Nuff said?

---

I completely disagree.  Practice negates whatever meager push gravity gives a downbow.  We all have been fighting gravity since the birth.  Theres no reason to stop now.  One should not limit oneself to the patterns implied  by "down driven bowing".  One should work to be able to accent notes regardless of what bow direction one is on.

martynspeck - Posted - 07/12/2012:  09:11:03

quote:

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Originally posted by Peghead

If we can't talk about bowing what's left!

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Politics

Seriously though, I've actually benefited from both sides of this argument. I think I would benefit from a vocabulary of patterns. And also would benefit from being able to break the patterns and improvise with the bowing.

There's a piece of wisdom I've picked up from the Software Development profession. "There's more than one way to do it."

DeamhanFola - Posted - 07/12/2012:  10:06:04

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by DeamhanFola

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

Good posts.

 

Let me pick your brain some more dave. Do you think bowing directions should be arranged so accented beats fall on the downbow? Or do you believe upbows and downbows can be both be accented with generally equal ease?  This is something FP and I keep going around about, and i just want your opinion.

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I'm of the opinion that a fiddler should be capable of accenting with both up AND downbows. Back in the 80s neo-classical electric guitar days I read an interview with one of the players (Paul Gilbert?) who said that a guitarist should be able to play a note with equal power whether picking up or down, contradicting the theory that downstrokes are inherently more powerful. This may be so without practice and deliberate intent, but it needn't always be the case.

 

Accents can be provided from increases/ decreases in bow speed, bow pressure, etc, not merely up or down direction. I practice to have the potential to accent whatever direction my bow is headed. There are perhaps some limitations to this depending on personal style and the demands of the tune (Kevin Burke, for example, says that 99% of the time he begins triplets on a downbow), but I don't want laziness / lack of proficiency to limit my options.

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I'm a LITTLE leery of applying guitar stuff to fiddle... it's pretty different (I play electric guitar with a flatpick myself).

And also, '80s rock guitar was rife with "neoclassical" players who were into havinf the ability to play scales at top speed, so fast you wouldn't be able to make out individual notes, and THEN playing with a level of distortion that would guarantee you couldn't actually HEAR the results of their virtuosity- the whole thing seems quite insane!

 

Things like the difference between upstrokes and downstrokes often CAN be at least partially remedied with more and more practice.... BUT:

1. If you're playing a tradtional music genre, you're playing a style formed at least partially by players who didn't have unlimited time.

2. There is your own life, your own available time, and your own goals to consider.

If you have unlimited time, and your goal is to be the best fiddler in the world, have at it.

If your time is limited, and you have more modest goals, then picking a more limited subset of all the technical possibilities and focusing on techniques that give you high "bang for the buck" seems appropriate.

---

Of course, my point here was not to uncritically apply guitar technique to fiddle, but rather to explore the theory behind the practise. In other words, if you identify a weakness in your technique (whether it be the inability to bow strongly on the upbow, or whatever) you work on that weakness. Sometimes this involves re-evaluating what works for you as a technique and exploring other iterations of style. Whereas Charlie Lennon says he tends to use upbows for triplets on particular tunes, others (perhaps the majority of Irish trad players) favour beginning the triplet on a down-bow. I want to have the option to do both, and as ornamentation like triplets are essential to my particular genre, this is far from a waste of my time.

As for time constraints, certainly I know I would be better served by practising my fiddle than composing messages on FH, so back to the woodshed now for me...

Edited by - DeamhanFola on 07/12/2012 10:13:20

tonyelder - Posted - 07/12/2012:  10:11:09

I think a person should employ whatever method they think seems to suit their learning style the best, seems to get them down the road in a way that pleases them the most. If the method doesn't seem to be working well - then be willing to change or adopt other methods.

What I have in my head as a goal for my fiddling is not going to be the same as what other fiddlers have in mind. It might be similar in a lot of ways - but I'd be surprised if they were the same. So, what is this idea of "perfection" anyway? Perfect - according to who? And why is it necessary for me to tell someone else what they need to be doing - to be perfect? Can I tell them what is perfect for them?    I can't even tell what is perfect for me. Is "perfection" suppose to be an imaginary finish line (fame & fortune) - or perhaps is it the journey along the way, or is it suppose to be a state of being?  What?

The best I can do is - share what I have done, my perception of what it has produced for me, and what my hopes and expectations are for the future. Any more than that, and should expect controversy.

IdleHands - Posted - 07/12/2012:  10:14:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

I think a person should employ whatever method they think seems to suit their learning style the best, seems to get them down the road in a way that pleases them the most. If the method doesn't seem to be working well - then be willing to change or adopt other methods.

What I have in my head as a goal for my fiddling is not going to be the same as what other fiddlers have in mind. It might be similar in a lot of ways - but I'd be surprised if they were the same. So, what is this idea of "perfection" anyway? Perfect - according to who? And why is it necessary for me to tell someone else what they need to be doing - to be perfect? Can I tell them what is perfect for them?    I can't even tell what is perfect for me. Is "perfection" suppose to be an imaginary finish line (fame & fortune) - or perhaps is it the journey along the way, or is it suppose to be a state of being?  What?

The best I can do is - share what I have done, my perception of what it has produced for me, and what my hopes and expectations are for the future. Any more than that, and should expect controversy.

 

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I am perfect.  I am the embodiment of perfection.  All should strive to be like me.  Thanks for askin. :^)

tonyelder - Posted - 07/12/2012:  11:12:34

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

I think a person should employ whatever method they think seems to suit their learning style the best, seems to get them down the road in a way that pleases them the most. If the method doesn't seem to be working well - then be willing to change or adopt other methods.

What I have in my head as a goal for my fiddling is not going to be the same as what other fiddlers have in mind. It might be similar in a lot of ways - but I'd be surprised if they were the same. So, what is this idea of "perfection" anyway? Perfect - according to who? And why is it necessary for me to tell someone else what they need to be doing - to be perfect? Can I tell them what is perfect for them?    I can't even tell what is perfect for me. Is "perfection" suppose to be an imaginary finish line (fame & fortune) - or perhaps is it the journey along the way, or is it suppose to be a state of being?  What?

The best I can do is - share what I have done, my perception of what it has produced for me, and what my hopes and expectations are for the future. Any more than that, and should expect controversy.

 

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I am perfect.  I am the embodiment of perfection.  All should strive to be like me.  Thanks for askin. :^)

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Yeap. When it comes to some things - you're perfect.   

mudbug - Posted - 07/12/2012:  12:12:39

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

I think a person should employ whatever method they think seems to suit their learning style the best, seems to get them down the road in a way that pleases them the most. If the method doesn't seem to be working well - then be willing to change or adopt other methods.

What I have in my head as a goal for my fiddling is not going to be the same as what other fiddlers have in mind. It might be similar in a lot of ways - but I'd be surprised if they were the same. So, what is this idea of "perfection" anyway? Perfect - according to who? And why is it necessary for me to tell someone else what they need to be doing - to be perfect? Can I tell them what is perfect for them?    I can't even tell what is perfect for me. Is "perfection" suppose to be an imaginary finish line (fame & fortune) - or perhaps is it the journey along the way, or is it suppose to be a state of being?  What?

The best I can do is - share what I have done, my perception of what it has produced for me, and what my hopes and expectations are for the future. Any more than that, and should expect controversy.

 

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I am perfect.  I am the embodiment of perfection.  All should strive to be like me.  Thanks for askin. :^)

---

 Uh-oh.  I'm getting bad visions of deja-vu all over again.   Um,  you wouldn't have any alias' by any chance?

Fiddler - Posted - 07/12/2012:  12:45:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

A few facts folks.  

1) The total amount of bowing patterns in any setting remains constant over time.

​2) Bowing patterns may change ​location​ within the setting (or jam or session), but they can neither be created nor destroyed.  They simply are.

​3) To deny their existence it to deny reality.

​4) Bowing patterns consist of upstrokes, downstrokes--and rests or ornamentations or "ghost notes"--therein allowing "creation" of ponderable and imponderable stylistic differences within the patterns themselves, yet even in this transformative process the patterns retain the same mass and energy and as such do not change.

 

​You're welcome,

​Humbled

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This sounds suspiciously like the Laws of Bowing the Fiddle as rendered by the famous fiddler Sir Isaac "Downbow" Newton in the 18th Century.

Law 1: Conservation of bowing patterns. Bowing patterns may not be created nor destroyed, they may only be changed from one to another.

There exists a finite set of bowing patterns consisting primarily of up and down in perpendicularity to the strings. On occasion, a sideways motion along one or more of the strings may be employed should one intend a special sound.  A bowing pattern consists of either Up and/or Down and/or none, in any combination, as is suitable to the music and at the discretion of the operator. The duration of the Up, Down or None may be varied as is considered suitable by the operator.

Law 2: Duality. Bowing is at once percussive and smooth.

A paradox of unquantifiable mystery and beauty.   Note: Much later in the 20th Century, Schrodinger better described this phenomena in that now famous thought experiment using his poor cat.

Law 3: Universality. Bowing is at the pleasure of the operator unless it is strictly defined by a composer or recognized authority.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/12/2012:  12:47:54

I need a bowl of popcorn with this: it's both exhausting and fascinating!

Shawn Craver - Posted - 07/12/2012:  13:29:10

After listening to some fiddlers recently, I think that analyzing patterns is interesting, but patterns are just a small part of fiddling. I can pluck out the eye of a dog and hold it before a person and say "this is what makes a dog," but it would just be a dog's bloody eye. I think this is probably all I'll say about bowing patterns for a while.

Peghead - Posted - 07/12/2012:  15:41:35

My take so far:

Regarding bow direction - If we're talking about OT tunes, it's simple music. You just don't see more than 3 or 4 note slurs that often, and seldom slurring across all 4 strings using the whole bow except for special effects. If you play reasonably close to the middle of the bow with saw strokes and 2 nor 3 not slurs, you don't have to plan that carefully and "save the bow" like you would in a classical piece. If you start on either an up or down, in the middle of the bow, you can play a tune comfortably either way and never run out of hair. If you play near the balance point where the tone is naturally neutral, with a little practice you can become fluent in both directions. I think it's worth while to get comfortable with both so you can play freely and not crash. That being said however, I do believe in gravity, and not all parts of the bow are created equal by virtue of the weight they carry. The bow has 2 natural personalities as you approach either end. The frog is masculine, heavier and so has a natural louder intense sound and the tip softer. Yes, with practice (and a lot of it)  you can approach a degree of both effects at either end, but why. I'm of the opinion that it's to ones advantage to use gravity (not fight it) to exploit the bows natural tendencies.  There is a reason why the drums have evolved to be played from the top down!  It just seems intuitive (to me ) if you need a heavy accent and it's within reach go for a down bow. When you want soft, use the other end (when possible)

Regarding patterns: Are there patterns or is it all a continuum and any grouping of notes just a random snapshot in time. I believe there are a lot of patterns in life and in OT and they serve a purpose. Boxbow, geese don't fly AWW, the V shape has evolved as an efficient means to an end. If you want to learn the Cha- Cha your feet have to follow a specific pattern (weather you start with the left or Rt.) Following the pattern has nothing to do with weather or not you become a good dancer but you have to start there. The shuffle clearly is a pattern and imparts a very distinct character to the notes. Keep in mind there are many styles of playing where the players try to hide the bowing. Old time fiddle often uses the bowing as poly rhythm.  Patterns have there own  natural and unique feel. If you break down the bowing of several great players, I believe you will find many repeating combinations of bowing  if you are looking for them. Which comes first the tune or the pattern. It's too easy to say the tune. Like I mentioned it's simple music with a finite and simple palette. Given that there are reoccurring patterns to be found,  it's curious to consider if these groupings of slurs and saw strokes themselves are somehow the DNA and the carriers of the brand. In other words, can you back into the process apply them and come out with something that sounds in the genre. Probably, but that leaves me with a very sad feeling. The question then is at what point in the creative process of developing a tune does one consider the mechanics of bowing (if at all) Like I said before any discussion of bowing without the notes being bowed is an abstract exercise. I can't imagine the beginning of Blackberry Blossom played without a bowing pattern of some kind. There has to be a marriage between the feel of the notes and the rhythm that propels it. If you ask your friend "how was the drive to the country" do they say "it was great, I made 354 lefts, 450 Rts. and 2 u turns. Of course that's a true and underlying reality, but  but it doesn't really speak to the experience. A careful consideration of and thoughtful application of bowing (patterns or otherwise) by someone who is reaching for the sound and not trying to synthesize it will yield a good sounding tune (IMO) even with a patterned vocabulary. Cutting and pasting a grouping of notes that fills the hole nicely, will not necessarily be true. Call it a pattern or whatever  it's really about "tune/bow consciousness"  and I think that it's good for newbies and lurkers to see what a huge subject it is. I hope it continues.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/12/2012:  16:19:32

quote:

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Originally posted by Peghead

If we can't talk about bowing what's left!

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Precisely.

The most interesting part of the fiddle, and they just want bowing advice to amount to

"Just do it!" and be done with it.  And anyone who has anything more to say about it is treated like some kind of heretic.

And they ASSUME that all of the people who come to the Fiddle Hangout feel or SHOULD feel the same way.

Skip over a bowing thread they aren't interested in... oh NO, not THEM!!!

Selfish, willfully ignorant Sons of StrawTurkeys!!!!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/12/2012:  16:23:09

If it continues, it will be people like you that will carry it on.

As you can see, I'm WAY too ticked off by the ATTITUDE on the other (RATHER LARGE) side to be able to discuss the matter civilly.
Maybe you can do better.

Peghead - Posted - 07/12/2012:  16:45:11

Actually, I think "just do it" is very good advice, you can think about it and form opinions after the doing. Style and approach are extensions or our personalities and we're all going to do it our way. It's great to share and view the diversity.  I'm not selling or a advocating, just sharing my thoughts and opinions.