localboy - Posted - 03/30/2008:  09:11:54

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I hope someone can set me straight on what position I'm playing. Ok, is first position considered anytime I'm playing open strings or playing my pinkie on the next lowest string? Is third position considered when I move my index finger down to C on the G, G on the D etc.? Now, what is considered second postion? Would it be like playing in F with my second finger on the F on D and first finger going to Bb on A, Or would it be playing index finger on Bb on G, F on D etc.?

Any help appreciated!

Gary

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Edited by - OTJunky on 05/30/2008 17:31:47

OTJunky - Posted - 03/30/2008:  09:49:22

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Well - I had this wrong initially because the position numbering on the fiddle is different than it is on the guitar.

On the fiddle it goes by finger number.

In "first position" the first finger plays the F on the E-string, the second finger plays the G on the E-string, the third finger plays the A on the E-string and the fourth finger (pinky) plays the B on the E-string.

In second position, the first finger plays the G on the E-string that was played by the second finger in first position.

In third position the first finger plays the A on the E-string that was played by the third finger in first position.

In fourth position the first finger plays the B on the E-string that was played by the fourth finger in first position.

Does this make sense?

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 03/30/2008 09:50:10

localboy - Posted - 03/30/2008:  10:17:54

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Much obliged, OTJ! I had it all wrong, but that makes more sense than what I was thinking.

Gary

bsed - Posted - 03/30/2008:  11:33:21

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Of course you can play III position on all strings. I think of it that you shift your entire hand up the neck so that the 1st finger plays the note that the 3rd finger would have played in 1st position.
e.g. On the D string, the first finger slides up the neck to play G.

Just call me Dwight.

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Edited by - bsed on 03/30/2008 11:34:02

FiddleJammer - Posted - 03/30/2008:  19:02:00

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/whinging

Waaahhhh. There's no easy open drones! Waaaahhh.

Unless I learn something new.

/end whinging

Er, um, could someone mention some drones that work?









Cheers,

Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

OTJunky - Posted - 03/30/2008:  19:29:32

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Well - I'm no expert on playing out of first position...

About the only time I try to do it is on A tunes like Sally Goodin', Grey Eagle, and Dance Around Molly - these use third position.

Or on some of Ed Haley's C tunes like Cherry River Rag, Dunbar and Catlettsburg - these mostly use second position - though the 3rd part of Catlettsburg goes way up on the E-string.

When playing in third position on the E-string in A tunes, you can use the open A-string below as a drone..

When playing in second position on the A-string in C tunes, Haley often used the open E-string as a drone..

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

magnuscanis - Posted - 03/31/2008:  06:14:17

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I don't often move much out of first position when I'm playing folk tunes, or at least not for extended periods. There are, however, a couple of tunes that I regularly play parts of higher up the neck.

One is an extended version of The Mason's Apron (inspired by the playing of the Dubliners), which has a couple of sections high up on the E string that work nicely with an A string drone (it also helps me to get my top A in tune)

The other is a tune called Horses Brawl, which is in G. Although I usually play the tune on the D and A strings, I sometimes like to play the first section in a mixture of first and third position on the D string so that I can keep the open G string droning throughout. As it's a piece I often play for dances, which entails playing it multiple times, I find that's a good way of introducing some variation into the sound.

- Magnus

coelhoe - Posted - 04/16/2008:  20:40:39

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I think the Dubliner's version of "Mason's Apron" has John Sheehan on fiddle and Barney McKenna on tenor banjo. Best version I know of. Probably recorded in the early '70's.

Dennis


"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

Bartolomeo - Posted - 04/17/2008:  13:10:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by OTJunky

In "first position" the first finger plays the F on the E-string, the second finger plays the G on the E-string, the third finger plays the A on the E-string and the fourth finger (pinky) plays the B on the E-string.

In second position, the first finger plays the G on the E-string that was played by the second finger in first position.

In third position the first finger plays the A on the E-string that was played by the third finger in first position.
...

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Mostly. Technically, it depends what key you're playing in. Third (III) position would have you playing A on the e-string with your first finger in the common keys for fidding, but Ab if you were playing in in the key of Ab major, Db major, or Gb major.

For common fiddle keys, the distinction is more important for the even-numbered positions. If you were to shift into second (II) position in the key of D, you would be playing F# on the d-string with your first finger, not F, and C# on the a-string, not C.

I mainly learned shifts by practicing three-octave scales.

OTJunky - Posted - 04/17/2008:  13:38:20

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quote:

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I mainly learned shifts by practicing three-octave scales.

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Now there's something that's not used in a lot of fiddle tunes..

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

scrubber - Posted - 04/17/2008:  14:18:35

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quote:

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Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

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I mainly learned shifts by practicing three-octave scales.

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Now there's something that's not used in a lot of fiddle tunes..

--OTJ

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Indeed!

There are TWO positions in fiddlin' -- open position (or, as the classical players would say, first position) and closed position, where all of the notes are fingered. Closed position can be used over the entire length of the fingerboard, so, if one wants to adapt classical terminology one could label it second, third, fourth position (etc., depending on where the first finger is placed), but the application is the same -- the first finger is planted (like a capo) and all the notes are 'stopped'. In contrast, in open position open strings (and 'primes') are utilized and the player stays in 'first' position....

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Edited by - scrubber on 04/17/2008 14:28:25

countrydude911 - Posted - 06/06/2008:  10:39:07

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i've never had any "formal" training on position shifts.....but is it correct to say that when playing the two octave D scale, when you shift up on the E string to where your first finger is on the A.....and your 4th finger hits the high D note......this is 3rd position then correct ??

Play that fiddle boy !!!!!!

magnuscanis - Posted - 06/06/2008:  12:56:05

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quote:

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Originally posted by countrydude911

i've never had any "formal" training on position shifts.....but is it correct to say that when playing the two octave D scale, when you shift up on the E string to where your first finger is on the A.....and your 4th finger hits the high D note......this is 3rd position then correct ??

Play that fiddle boy !!!!!!

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Yes, that's right.

Similarly 2nd position has G under the 1st finger and C under the 4th, while 4th position has the 1st finger on B and the 4th finger playing the E an octave above the open string.

You can work out the higher positions by following the same pattern, although you'd use those ones even more infrequently in most folk fiddling than 2nd, 3rd or 4th position. One of the few tunes I play which goes higher up the neck is the aforementioned Mason's Apron. I think that puts me into about 8th position at one point although, to be honest, I'm usually too busy concentrating on getting the notes up there vaguely in tune to worry too much about what the position is called!

- Magnus

countrydude911 - Posted - 06/06/2008:  13:09:55

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cool masqnuscanis. so, here is one question.......which position do you think would be best to learn next, besides 1st ? in other words....in fiddling, which would be the most frequently used ?

Play that fiddle boy !!!!!!

scrubber - Posted - 06/07/2008:  04:52:22

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One shouldn't be concerned about what position(s) to learn (and in what order) in fiddlin'. The important thing (position-wise) when playing 'up the neck' is to learn the relationships between the fingers in closed position (where all of the notes are 'stopped' and no open strings used). Since the relationships remain constant (with minor adjustments, depending on how close you are to the bridge) a tune learned in this fashion can be played over the entire length of the fingerboard.

Identifying your starting point in 'classical' terms (i.e. 2nd, 3rd, 4th position, etc.) is secondary and perhaps only necessary when 'enlightening' classically oriented players.

magnuscanis - Posted - 06/07/2008:  09:50:00

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I'd concur with what scrubber said. It's much more important to know the relationships between the notes and to know where the notes are on the fingerboard than to get too hung up on which position you're playing in. As I said, I'm not even sure what positions I get into when playing The Mason's Apron up the neck - I was able to work out that it would be 8th position because I know (or at least I'm fairly sure) that I have a high F# under my first finger at one point, but I certainly don't think "now I must shift up to 8th position" when I'm playing it.

A lot of folk fiddle traditions don't really make a lot of use of playing up the neck in any case. You occasionally reach or shift up to get notes higher than you can reach with your hand in its usual position (first position, if you will) but don't tend to play a lot of extended stuff higher up. Other styles do have a lot more up-the-neck stuff, so it depends largely what style of fiddling you're into. Personally I like to know my instruments as well as possible so I think it's good to be able to play up the neck.

Of course, I used to be a classically oriented player myself.

- Magnus

Monkey - Posted - 06/23/2008:  13:19:56

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There is also something called "1/2 position", where your middle finger is playing the notes your index finger would normally play in 1st position. You would do this if you need to cleanly play a figure with a share of Ab/A, Eb/E, Bb/B, or F/Gb transitions. I say "cleanly" because you would be avoiding sliding your index finger around.

magnuscanis - Posted - 06/24/2008:  07:32:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Monkey

There is also something called "1/2 position", where your middle finger is playing the notes your index finger would normally play in 1st position. You would do this if you need to cleanly play a figure with a share of Ab/A, Eb/E, Bb/B, or F/Gb transitions. I say "cleanly" because you would be avoiding sliding your index finger around.

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Very useful when playing Bach.

I can't think of many (actually, any) folk tunes that need 1/2 position, since those note combinations don't tend to crop up in common folk keys (although G# to A on the G string can appear in A tunes, and it can be handy to avoid a slide between them). Doubtless there are some tunes out there that would be facilitated by it though. In fact, I tend to use half position more for places where the notes are on different strings (e.g. G# on the A string and E on the D string) where you'd have to combine a slide (or at least a shift) with a string change, although these are again fairly uncommon in most folk tunes.

A similar idea, which as far as I know doesn't have a classical position name, is to use a different finger for playing notes that would usually lie under the second finger when you have to play consecutive notes such as F# (on the D string) and C natural (on the A string). In that case you can either bring the first finger up to play the C natural or bring the third finger down to play the F#, leaving the second finger to play the other notes. I know a couple of Welsh tunes where that technique is quite handy (one of them on those notes and the other a string higher, on C# and G natural).

- Magnus

scrubber - Posted - 06/24/2008:  11:18:03

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Here's an interesting situation re: position (as understood under classical terminology):

Suppose I am playing in F# major, with my 1st finger 'planted' on F# on the d string -- is this 2nd position?

Now suppose I'm playing in G-flat major. My finger is in the same place on the d string as it was for F# major. But now, since I am playing G-flat rather than F# this would be considered third position rather than 2nd...

In a tradition based on playing by ear the relationships between the fingers is far more important than the notation (in this case, F# major vs G-flat major). This is why I insist there is only an open and closed position. One (open) takes advantage of the open strings (in any tuning) of the instrument. The other utilizes 'stopped' finger patterns, allowing a tune (once learned) to be played in any key.