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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/27217
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mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 11:33:31
Ok, I'm playing either reasonably good tempo or dreadfully slow.
I was practicing "Ducks on a Pond" from the Portland collection.
I have the Music in my MIDI software (Notation Composer) and have it set to 120 BPM and I keep up just fine.
Then I play the tune in Amazing Slow Downer and stuggle keeping up at 100%. No big deal, so I slow it down a bit. Still can't keep up. I had to slow it down a lot (70%).
So then I measured with my snark (little tap the beat gadget) and Portland at 100% came out to 110 BPM.
Then I did the same with MIDI and it came out 120 BPM (exactly what software was set too).
But then I realized I could clearly hear the back beat in the MIDI and was taping both down beat and back beat (1 & 3 and 2 & 4).
But on the recording it's going so fast and the down beat so strong I was only tapping down beat (1 & 3). Ut-oh.
So I slowed the recording down to 50% and tapped down beat and back beat and it came out to 110 BPM. TIMES TWO. Thats 220 BPM.
No wonder I can't keep up.
But if I slow the recording down to 50% it sounds way to slow.
So when folks say "Beats Per Minute" do they mean DOWN Beats Per Minute or are they referring to the signature which is 4/4 four beats per measure.
To confirm I timed one time through in the MIDI (32 measures) and it was 60 seconds.
On the recording one time through was 35 seconds. Contra dance is about 30 seconds each time through.
So it appears when folks say 120 BPM, it's a 120 DOWN beats per minute.
What's odd is, my teacher will comment on some songs to play it slower (not because I'm being sloppy) but because she said that it is the correct speed.
And there are plenty of tunes I don't slow down at all on Portland collection that I keep up with fine.
It could be some of my tunes are messed up inside the MIDI file itself and the BPM is not displaying correctly and I just have further to go on this tune than I thought to get it up to tempo. I hope !!
I'll have to wall time measure some other tunes.
One other thing I need to check is I'm not sure Amazing Slow Downer is linear (I recall something about him changing that on one of the recent releases). 50% might not be half the beats per minute. I'll have to time it at 50%. I just checked Amazing Slow Downer is linear. 50% took a little over a minute. But sounds way to slow. Really puzzled.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/25/2012 11:37:07
BanjoBrad - Posted - 03/25/2012: 12:50:07
Beats per minute are the number of "time" notes ( 4/4 time = 1/4 notes, etc.) per minute. On most sheet music you will usually see a note, like an 8th note or quarter note followed by a number, i.e. 1/4 (symbol) = 120. This is your beats per minute. Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note.
At least, that's the way I've always understood it, ever since I started piano back in the 3rd grade many, many years ago.
mudbug - Posted - 03/25/2012: 13:14:16
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoBrad
Beats per minute are the number of "time" notes ( 4/4 time = 1/4 notes, etc.) per minute. On most sheet music you will usually see a note, like an 8th note or quarter note followed by a number, i.e. 1/4 (symbol) = 120. This is your beats per minute. Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note.
At least, that's the way I've always understood it, ever since I started piano back in the 3rd grade many, many years ago.
Yup. If the time signature is 4/4, the top # means 4 beats per measure and the bottom # means the quarter note gets one beat. BPM tells you how what to set the tempo at on the metranome, with the click on the first beat of the measure. You could also use it to denote anouther beat in the measure, but only one per measure on that specific tune. While practicing with a metranome, of course, you could use the click to mean two or all four beats in the measure.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 14:03:11
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoBrad
Beats per minute are the number of "time" notes ( 4/4 time = 1/4 notes, etc.) per minute. On most sheet music you will usually see a note, like an 8th note or quarter note followed by a number, i.e. 1/4 (symbol) = 120. This is your beats per minute. Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note.
At least, that's the way I've always understood it, ever since I started piano back in the 3rd grade many, many years ago.
Yup. If the time signature is 4/4, the top # means 4 beats per measure and the bottom # means the quarter note gets one beat. BPM tells you how what to set the tempo at on the metranome, with the click on the first beat of the measure. You could also use it to denote anouther beat in the measure, but only one per measure on that specific tune. While practicing with a metranome, of course, you could use the click to mean two or all four beats in the measure.
That's what I thought !!
When folks say 110 - 120 BPM they mean DOWN BEATS PER MINUTE
If you use the rules you describe above (which is what I had been doing) dance tempo is 220 BPM !!!
Do the math.
32 measures for one time through. 32 * 4 1/4 notes = 120 quarter notes per minute.
One time through (32 measures) at contra dance tempo is 30 seconds (google "Contra dance 30 seconds" )
So they do 120 quarter notes in 30 seconds. That is 240 quarter notes per minute. You never hear Dances played at 240 BPM (you hear 120 BPM).
When they talk "dance tempo" they are refering to Down Beats per minute. Which comes out to 120-ish.
Believe me I'd love it, if I was wrong. I'd be lot less depressed.
I think part of the reason they use Down Beats Per Minute instead of Beats Per Minute is it works for Jigs and Reels and you can better relate the speeds.
Jigs are also done around 110 down beats per minute.
So yes, BPM is BPM. But when they use the term loosely at folk dances (and who knows what else) I think they really mean DOWN beats per minute. That's where I got messed up.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/25/2012 14:05:19
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 15:05:00
I went back to this old thread.
fiddlehangout.com/topic/16996/1
And noticed someone said "I'm assuming when folks say BPM they mean Down Beats per minute. 4/4 Time has 2 down beats per measure."
And more or less the thread said that was wrong. Yes and no depending on the context.
When folks are talking in the context of Dance tempo it is Down Beats per minute (foot taps per minute) and in 4/4 time (reel) it has 2 down beats per measure (quarter note 1 & 3).
When folks use a Metronome set to say 120 BPM
That is basically what folks tap their foot to on each click.
Most folks in 4/4 tap down on 1 & 3 (down beats) and lift their foot on 2 & 4 (back beat).
They are not taping down on notes 1, 2, 3 & 4 (that's too much taping). You might in very early stages. More experienced folks might just tap down on the 1.
So if you want to be technical as that thread was 4/4 has 4 "beats" then Contra dance tempos ARE 220-260 BPM (not 110 - 130).
If you use the "slang" of (where DOWN is implied) beats per measure (2 per measure in a Reel and 2 per measure in jigs) then Contra dance tempo is 110-130 (down) BPM. (half measures)
That thread consistently says 110 - 130 BPM and consistently says BPM is for each quarter note in 4/4 and that is completely conflicting !!! Apples and Oranges.
Both these measures equate to approx 30 seconds for 32 measures (for 1 time through a square tune AA-BB).
It was also stated that 4/4 has 1 down beat per measure (not in the context of Dance Tempo units that are used). Some call the first down beat a the major down beat and the second down beat the secondary beat. Both places you typically down bow.
Both usages use the term "BPM" and if you mix them up your screwed.
So yeah early on you tap every quarter note in 4/4 on every click of the Metronome. But in those units Dance tempo is (220 - 260 BPM).
As you advance and speed up you think in down beats and foot taps. And each click of metronome is a 1/2 measure in 4/4 (one foot tap down per half measure).
So now "120 BPM" doubles the speed (a double sized unit of measure), once you think in half measure or down beats. Which is the units "Dance Tempos" are measured in.
One other example. If a Metronome was a tic per quarter note beat and you wanted dance tempo. It would be 32 measures * 4 notes per measure (128 beats in 30 seconds) (30 seconds for 1 time through a 32 measure tune) so to convert that to minutes it's 256 beats in 60 seconds). Try setting your metronome to 256 BPM for dance tempo. It won't work. My Metronome won't even go that high. You setthe metronome on DOWN beats typically. Unless you are playing WAY below dance tempo.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/25/2012 15:25:02
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 15:41:36
I can't edit my post above.
I should also mention that the Software I use never uses the "slang" definition that folk musician use for dance tempo.
I set the software to 120 BPM which goes strictly by the signature beats which is HALF typical dance tempo.
I need to set the software to 240 BPM (quarter notes per minute for reel) for dance tempo. To get 1 time through (32 measures) to take about 30 seconds.
I was thinking a lot of my recordings (which I have always tried to catch up to) are playing much faster than Dance Tempo and more complex. Turns out they are typical dance tempo (techincally 240 Quart notes per minute) but in the dance world it's called 120 BPM (half measures per minute).
OldNSlow - Posted - 03/25/2012: 16:01:20
Seems like you are making it way too complicated. Unless you are playing for a contra dance, LOL. Most of the recorded fiddle music that I have tried to play I get from youtube. It is played at dance speed for the most part. Just don't even worry about the beats per minute, or downbeats per minute, or upbeats or sidebeats, or even deadbeats per minute. If it sounds like it is at dance speed it probably is. Then just use ASD and slow it down by percentages. Start at whatever speed you need to and work up. Periodically, just try to play it at full recorded speed. Slow back down if you need to.
Once you get to where you can play it at 100 percent on ASD or whatever program you use, you will be able to adapt to playing speed fairly easily. I think ASD can go above 100 percent on speed, so you can use that to work your speed up to whatever you think you might need. It doesn't need to be dead on. There is no conductor to frown at you or throw sheet music at you (happened to me in junior high band once, LOL). Just get yourself comfy with whatever speed you think you need.
I am not to the point where I can play much of anything at proper speed. So I don't even worry about that part of it. Not dropping the fiddle on the floor is still part of my study.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/25/2012: 16:56:57
This is why you often see fiddle tunes represented in 2/4, 2/2 or cut time. That is rather than a measure being 1&2&3&4&; it's 1e&a2e&a. They are both the same thing, just use different mnemomics. With the latter the 1 and the 2 are the identified "beat" and would be marked in your 120 range. Contra dancers (and callers) like that identification as that also indicates the "beat" one places their feet to. They are not technically moving at 240.
The top number doesn't actually mean how many "beats" in a measure, as such the bottom doesn't reflect what unit gets the beat. You can have it written in 4/4. It means 4 quarter notes in a measure. Often for fiddle music you are identifying the "beat" however with just the 1 and the 3, so half note gets the beat. However, the default for much of the software is 1/4 note gets the beat, (even though there is no such actual rule). If possible you would change that notation to just state 1/2 gets the beat (1/2 note symbol=120)
Another way to think about it is there are many different levels of beats (they are binary in nature). The binary levels doesn't change based on how you assign numbers.
Tick-a-tock-a-Tack-a-tock-a-Tuck-a-tock-Tack-a-tock-a-Toke-a-tock-a-Tack-a-tock-a-Tuck-a-tock-Tack-a-tock-a- is a pretty common representation of one time through one part. Binary, the beats starting with Tick-a, come as 2x2x2x2x2. "Beat" in bpm is assigned to one level. Notating it, writing it out in measures, and assigning quarter/eighth is a separate function. Above could be written as 8 measures of 4; 4 measures of 8, 2 measures of 16; represented by 1/8 notes, 1/16, or possibly 1/32, even 1/4 (not usually practical). None of that would change the beat levels.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 17:03:55
This is in reply to OldnSlow.
I asked for help in that old thread and got conflicting responses I think some folks are very confused and confused me in the process.
I asked again and still got, let's say improper answers, I won't say incorrect.
This is with no disrespect to Mudbug trying to help. For example this is the problem (and I think a lot of folks are thinking this way) he said.
"Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note."
No, you should NOT think of it that way. I suspect he thinks that is dance tempo as well, it is NOT (as given).
It's half dance tempo if you take that statement literally.
If you think of each tick as one quarter note (in 4/4) and you want to play dance tempo you'd have to set Metronome to 240 !!!
If you think of each tick as as one DOWN Beat (one tick per HALF measure) then 120 on the Metronome is dance tempo.
I learn some tunes by ear and some by sheet music or both.
You'd have to be pretty damn good (I'm not) to pick up an average tune at dance tempo and get every note even slowed down.
I often do that as first pass. Might spend a few days on it. Then I get the music for it (many different ways including transcribing myself or with help).
Then I get to work on getting every note in, plan out bowing and accenting. I always find I made many errors by ear.
Then I get it up to speed. Then go back to the recording.
I want to set the correct target speed in my software (and shoot for dance tempo). I was setting it WRONG because folks are mixing up BPM (from the "signature beats") and BPM (down beats per measure) terms used by folk musicians (mabe all muscians).
If you have even modest experience your not setting the Metronome to every quarter note. You setting it to your foot taping rate (down beats). Which is twice per measure (not 4).
Mudbug should have said (for 4/4 time)
"Set your metronome to 240 and equate each tick to one quarter note." (which nobody in their right mind does)
Or
"Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one HALF note (or one HALF Measure or one DOWN beat or ONE foot tap down)." <--- That's where people keep giving the wrong advice.
Again no disrepect to Mudbug, many folks keep saying the same thing and it's wrong.
Dance tempos are given in down beats per minute (not according how many beats are in the signature).
Like wise a beginner book might set the Metronome per signature beat when playing Old McDonald had a farm and Twinkle Twinkle (a tick for every quarter note).
But later you set the Metronome to down beats per minute (not according how many beats are in the signature). And that is the unit folks use when referencing dance tempos.
Another way of saying it, If I want to play Jig at 110 BPM vs a Reel at 110 BPM I set the Metronome the SAME a 110 ticks per minute, even though the signature is quite different.
How would I apply Mudbug's Metronome rule to a 6/8 Jig.
It's not 6 Ticks per measure, it's not 8 ticks per measure, it's not 3 ticks per measure, it stays 2 ticks per measure !!! You think in dotted quarter per minute on Jigs. Or simple down beats per measure again (or half measures again).
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/25/2012 17:05:34
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 17:18:06
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
This is why you often see fiddle tunes represented in 2/4, 2/2 or cut time. That is rather than a measure being 1&2&3&4&; it's 1e&a2e&a. They are both the same thing, just use different mnemomics. With the latter the 1 and the 2 are the identified "beat" and would be marked in your 120 range. Contra dancers (and callers) like that identification as that also indicates the "beat" one places their feet to. They are not technically moving at 240.
The top number doesn't actually mean how many "beats" in a measure, as such the bottom doesn't reflect what unit gets the beat. You can have it written in 4/4. It means 4 quarter notes in a measure. Often for fiddle music you are identifying the "beat" however with just the 1 and the 3, so half note gets the beat. However, the default for much of the software is 1/4 note gets the beat, (even though there is no such actual rule). If possible you would change that notation to just state 1/2 gets the beat (1/2 note symbol=120)
Another way to think about it is there are many different levels of beats (they are binary in nature). The binary levels doesn't change based on how you assign numbers.
Tick-a-tock-a-Tack-a-tock-a-Tuck-a-tock-Tack-a-tock-a-Toke-a-tock-a-Tack-a-tock-a-Tuck-a-tock-Tack-a-tock-a- is a pretty common representation of one time through one part. Binary, the beats starting with Tick-a, come as 2x2x2x2x2. "Beat" in bpm is assigned to one level. Notating it, writing it out in measures, and assigning quarter/eighth is a separate function. Above could be written as 8 measures of 4; 4 measures of 8, 2 measures of 16; represented by 1/8 notes, 1/16, or possibly 1/32, even 1/4 (not usually practical). None of that would change the beat levels.
I totally agree with this. But if I had not figured out what was going on, on my own I'm not sure I would have understood it. But I do now. Thanks.
I think I can actually set my software so that a 1/2 note gets a beat in 4/4. Or like you said you just set it to 2/2 and it automatically does that and everything else remains the same.
For some reason it automatically sets jigs so that dotted quarter is a beat.
People don't realize they are implicitly using the Metronome this way. A tick per quarter note would drive you crazy even at modest speeds.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 17:50:22
Sorry it was Banjobrad that said "Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note." not Mudbug. I'd correct that if could. Not being able to edit to make things correct really stinks.
But Mudbug, replied "Yup". It should have been Nope... :)
I don't mean to be pointing fingers. It's a messy topic and it's perfectly understandable why the somewhat confuses responses.
p1cklef1sh - Posted - 03/25/2012: 18:12:37
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
Sorry it was Banjobrad that said "Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note." not Mudbug. I'd correct that if could. Not being able to edit to make things correct really stinks.
But Mudbug, replied "Yup". It should have been Nope... :)
I don't mean to be pointing fingers. It's a messy topic and it's perfectly understandable why the somewhat confuses responses.
Ok, so Beats per minute indicates how many beats per minute. Not only upbeats but all beats. 4/4 time refers to 4 beats per measure and the quarter note gets the beat. so an eighth note gets half a beat etc. Beats per measure has nothing to do with beats per minute in the general sence of understanding BPM. BPM is a conductors decision based on how quickly the tempo should be for the song to sound right. To play something faster or slower affects BPM but not the time signature. Most 4/4 time is 80 to 120 beats per minute. Any faster than that and you need to change your time signature so that you dont end up with 64 16th notes per measure. So you can go to a 2/4 TS or a 6/8 TS for peppier tunes. Ultimately you will be deciding how fast a song should be played so that you are happy with how it sounds. You are your own conductor. As for slowing down a tune, if the BPM is less than your comfortable playing speed of 120 then you should have no problem keeping up IMO. However, if the song has a certain rythme ie shuffle etc, then slowing it down could throw off your syncopation making it more difficult to keep up rythmically. Rob. (Some of my comment was already mentioned, but I decided to repeat it to reinforce the music theory part of it. Darwins theory is his opinion, Music theory is fact.) Just sayin.
p1cklef1sh - Posted - 03/25/2012: 18:16:40
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoBrad
Beats per minute are the number of "time" notes ( 4/4 time = 1/4 notes, etc.) per minute. On most sheet music you will usually see a note, like an 8th note or quarter note followed by a number, i.e. 1/4 (symbol) = 120. This is your beats per minute. Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note.
At least, that's the way I've always understood it, ever since I started piano back in the 3rd grade many, many years ago.
Yup. If the time signature is 4/4, the top # means 4 beats per measure and the bottom # means the quarter note gets one beat. BPM tells you how what to set the tempo at on the metranome, with the click on the first beat of the measure. You could also use it to denote anouther beat in the measure, but only one per measure on that specific tune. While practicing with a metranome, of course, you could use the click to mean two or all four beats in the measure.
That's what I thought !!
When folks say 110 - 120 BPM they mean DOWN BEATS PER MINUTE
If you use the rules you describe above (which is what I had been doing) dance tempo is 220 BPM !!!
Do the math.
32 measures for one time through. 32 * 4 1/4 notes = 120 quarter notes per minute.
One time through (32 measures) at contra dance tempo is 30 seconds (google "Contra dance 30 seconds" )
So they do 120 quarter notes in 30 seconds. That is 240 quarter notes per minute. You never hear Dances played at 240 BPM (you hear 120 BPM).
When they talk "dance tempo" they are refering to Down Beats per minute. Which comes out to 120-ish.
Believe me I'd love it, if I was wrong. I'd be lot less depressed.
I think part of the reason they use Down Beats Per Minute instead of Beats Per Minute is it works for Jigs and Reels and you can better relate the speeds.
Jigs are also done around 110 down beats per minute.
So yes, BPM is BPM. But when they use the term loosely at folk dances (and who knows what else) I think they really mean DOWN beats per minute. That's where I got messed up.
So what happens in contra dance is that the time signature changes to 6/8 time and the quarter notes are played like eighth notes, the bpm stays the same there are just more notes and the song sounds faster. there is no other math involved, you cant go by your multiplication thingy above without going nuts. I previously posted 2/4 time was a faster TS, its not. I was just checking to see who was paying attention. Rob
BanjoBrad - Posted - 03/25/2012: 18:44:07
Excerpts from "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory":
"Written music uses something called a time signature to signify how many beats are in a measure and what kind of note is used for the basic beat . This organization is called 'meter', ..."
"The most common types of time signatures use a quarter note for the base beat."
"The most accurate way to indicate tempo is by specifying a certain number of beats per minute, or bpm."
"For example, if our measures have three beats instead of four, and still use a quarter note for the beat, we have a 3/4 time signature. If you have three beats per measure but the basic beat in an eighth note ... the time signature is "three eight," or 3/8."
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 18:49:55
quote:
Originally posted by p1cklef1sh
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
Sorry it was Banjobrad that said "Set your metronome to 120 and equate each tick to one quarter note." not Mudbug. I'd correct that if could. Not being able to edit to make things correct really stinks.
But Mudbug, replied "Yup". It should have been Nope... :)
I don't mean to be pointing fingers. It's a messy topic and it's perfectly understandable why the somewhat confuses responses.
Ok, so Beats per minute indicates how many beats per minute. Not only upbeats but all beats. 4/4 time refers to 4 beats per measure and the quarter note gets the beat. so an eighth note gets half a beat etc. Beats per measure has nothing to do with beats per minute in the general sence of understanding BPM. BPM is a conductors decision based on how quickly the tempo should be for the song to sound right. To play something faster or slower affects BPM but not the time signature. Most 4/4 time is 80 to 120 beats per minute. Any faster than that and you need to change your time signature so that you dont end up with 64 16th notes per measure. So you can go to a 2/4 TS or a 6/8 TS for peppier tunes. Ultimately you will be deciding how fast a song should be played so that you are happy with how it sounds. You are your own conductor. As for slowing down a tune, if the BPM is less than your comfortable playing speed of 120 then you should have no problem keeping up IMO. However, if the song has a certain rythme ie shuffle etc, then slowing it down could throw off your syncopation making it more difficult to keep up rythmically. Rob. (Some of my comment was already mentioned, but I decided to repeat it to reinforce the music theory part of it. Darwins theory is his opinion, Music theory is fact.) Just sayin.
No, sorry, no. The time signature does not change the faster you play.
What Alaska said was just because a "fiddle" tune is written in 4/4 does not mean it's played with 4 major beats. That's the confusion. It's played with 2 beats per measure. Or 2 beats per group of 4 quarter notes. And that is the rate folks are referring to for dance tempo. As Alaska said it's a step to the music (a brisk walk).
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 18:56:29
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoBrad
Excerpts from "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory":
"Written music uses something called a time signature to signify how many beats are in a measure and what kind of note is used for the basic beat . This organization is called 'meter', ..."
"The most common types of time signatures use a quarter note for the base beat."
"The most accurate way to indicate tempo is by specifying a certain number of beats per minute, or bpm."
"For example, if our measures have three beats instead of four, and still use a quarter note for the beat, we have a 3/4 time signature. If you have three beats per measure but the basic beat in an eighth note ... the time signature is "three eight," or 3/8."
That is technically correct, the problem is many fiddle tunes are written as 4/4 but they are really played as 2/4. 2 beats per measure.
And when written music changes from 2/2, 2/4, 4/4 or cut time they are all played at the same tempo (roughly 110 BPM)
Playing 4/4 at technically 240 BPM is the same tempo as 2/4 at at 120 BPM. But in fiddle music they just lazily say everything is 120 BPM and you interpret the music appropriately. The software was takening everything litterally (as was I) and you quote above.
Basically in practice all tempos are as if the music was written in 2/4. 2 beats per 4 quarters.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 19:07:16
quote:
Originally posted by p1cklef1sh
So what happens in contra dance is that the time signature changes to 6/8 time and the quarter notes are played like eighth notes, the bpm stays the same there are just more notes and the song sounds faster. there is no other math involved, you cant go by your multiplication thingy above without going nuts. I previously posted 2/4 time was a faster TS, its not. I was just checking to see who was paying attention. Rob
Good question. The way I think of it, is, it's still 2 (major) Beats per measure. out of the 6 1/8 notes the major beat are on 1 and 4 in a jig.
You measure the beat in Dotted Quarters (three 1/8 notes of time per beat). So if it's a Jig or Reel it stays 2 beats per measure and tempo is roughly the same as the 4/4 reel (110 BPM).
Metronome stays the same. Dancers finish 1 time through the tune (AA-BB) 32 measures in roughly 30 seconds, just like a reel.
Think of the rate you tap your foot (for most people), regardless if it's 2/2, 2/4, 4/4, cut or 6/8. That's the same rate dancers step or bounce and the unit that used for the tempo.
A lot of times at a dance the caller will say to the band, "Jigs or Reels, either is fine". Same tempo !! Same "Pulse" to the music.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/25/2012 19:17:49
p1cklef1sh - Posted - 03/25/2012: 19:29:36
No, sorry, no. The time signature does not change the faster you play.
What Alaska said was just because a "fiddle" tune is written in 4/4 does not mean it's played with 4 major beats. That's the confusion. It's played with 2 beats per measure. Or 2 beats per group of 4 quarter notes. And that is the rate folks are referring to for dance tempo. As Alaska said it's a step to the music (a brisk walk).
I think you are missing the point. The time signature refers to the composition, the bpm refers to the tempo. You can have 4/4 time at any bpm but there is still only 4 beats per measure and the quarter note gets the beat. So if the composition is all quarter notes you would only have 4 per measure. Then you would have the equivalent of 8 eigth notes etc or some combination of notes and rests that equal four beats. Assuming you want to play 220 beats per measure, then you would have to play 16th notes for example for the speed but would still only have the equivalent of 4 beats per measure. Not every note played is a beat note. Just because a fiddle tune is played faster than composed for example doesnt change the composition, just the beats per minute. I am just saying if you were to rewrite your composition to fit your speed you would either have to change the type of notes or the time signature to make it work on paper.
boxbow - Posted - 03/25/2012: 19:52:08
I knew all about this stuff until I read this thread. I think I'll cling to my ignorance for a while longer. Mostly, I'll just try to keep up.
OldNSlow - Posted - 03/25/2012: 20:03:00
Yeah, guys. This thing has gotten way to deep and sticky for me. I did not know much, but now the more I read this thread, what little I know is evaporating. When you all get this thing settled, gimme a call. I am not even sure I can look in on it without getting dizzy.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/25/2012: 20:17:53
quote:
Originally posted by p1cklef1sh
I think you are missing the point. The time signature refers to the composition, the bpm refers to the tempo. You can have 4/4 time at any bpm but there is still only 4 beats per measure and the quarter note gets the beat. So if the composition is all quarter notes you would only have 4 per measure. Then you would have the equivalent of 8 eigth notes etc or some combination of notes and rests that equal four beats. Assuming you want to play 220 beats per measure, then you would have to play 16th notes for example for the speed but would still only have the equivalent of 4 beats per measure. Not every note played is a beat note. Just because a fiddle tune is played faster than composed for example doesnt change the composition, just the beats per minute. I am just saying if you were to rewrite your composition to fit your speed you would either have to change the type of notes or the time signature to make it work on paper.
I bolded the error (or confusion). All 4 quarter notes do NOT get a beat, when talking about dance tempo. That's the confusion. When it comes "BPM" (in this folk dance music anyway) they are always refering to 1 beat per HALF note (or half measure). Even if it says 4/4.
I just think of all reels and jigs as having 2 down beats per measure. All the places you typically set up for down bow. That is BPM folks are using for the units. Regardless of the signature
What I think your partly getting at is you can have a tune at the same BPM with a lot less notes that a less experienced person can keep up with. Yes, but that is not what this topic is about. And the signature doesn't have to change. We do this on the fly in our heads learning a tune. You listen for the big notes and fill in as you learn.
It's basically don't mix the signature "BPM" with how the "Beat" is actually played (and used to measure tempo). It does not match.
All my fiddle tunes, all 120 or so written as 4/4 are really 2 beats per measure (not 4). It's not, in practice, 4 beats per measure even though it's very often written as such. When talking about BPM (as in what you'd set a Metronome to).
People just know the MAJOR beats happen on 1 & 3. Not 1,2,3 & 4. It's the Major beat people are referring to when talking BPM (metronome tick/foot tap down). Even though you can think of 2 & 4 as beats too (back beat) they are not included with the BPM rate (or Metronome setting). You set the Metronome to tick on the "Major" beats of a 4/4 tune to 1 & 3.
If you wanted it to tick on all 4 quarter notes (of 4/4), you can, but for "Dance Tempo" that is ~220 Ticks per minute. Have fun. Mine won't even go that high and tops out at 208. That's because you set it for the MAJOR beats. You skip back beats (2 & 4). And when folks talk tempo in BPM they skip the back beat too.
Think BPM as MAJOR beats per minute. In 2 / 4 both beats are Major, In 4/4 1 & 3 are Major, in 6/8 1 & 4 are Major.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/25/2012 20:22:06
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2012: 02:04:48
Most 4/4 time is 80 to 120 beats per minute. Any faster than that and you need to change your time signature so that you dont end up with 64 16th notes per measure. So you can go to a 2/4 TS or a 6/8 TS for peppier tunes.
1. Time signature does not change due to tempo.
2. Notes per measure, or where the measure lines are, do not change due to tempo. (64 16th notes in a measure?) There are 16 sixteenth notes in on measure 2/2 or 4/4. There are 8 sixteenth notes in a measure of 2/4
3. The note values (quarter, eighth, sixteenth) do not change due to tempo.
4. 2/4 are no more or less peppier than 4/4. Nor are 6/8 tunes any peppier, they can be quite slow and stately.
You don't need to rewrite anything about the composition due to tempo.
I think what was referred to rewriting is interchangablity, that the same tune can be written as 4/4, 2/4 or 2/2 with the same measures. (It is also possible to combine 2 measures into one.) Has nothing to do with tempo, (nor technically, the feel) They are all played the same.
For the most part, there is no need to complicate, it should be fairly obvious which level "beat" is referred to in the bpm. If the bpm reference seems ridiculously fast or slow, divide it in half (or multiply by two).
mudbug - Posted - 03/26/2012: 03:34:02
BPM (beats per minute) will ALWAYS refer to one beat counted per measure. If you want to tap your foot twice in a measure, double the number for the metranome and use a new term such as FTPM (foot taps per minute). This is just a way in your mind of designating what the click of the metranome means. You could also go the other way and have one beat to every other measure, in which case your metranome setting would be half. Some times at gatherings, musicians will throw out terms that they don't comprehend, which is probably what happened when someone told you 120 BPM when they meant 240 bpm.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/26/2012: 05:17:25
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
BPM (beats per minute) will ALWAYS refer to one beat counted per measure. If you want to tap your foot twice in a measure, double the number for the metranome and use a new term such as FTPM (foot taps per minute). This is just a way in your mind of designating what the click of the metranome means. You could also go the other way and have one beat to every other measure, in which case your metranome setting would be half. Some times at gatherings, musicians will throw out terms that they don't comprehend, which is probably what happened when someone told you 120 BPM when they meant 240 bpm.
No, it's not always one beat per measure. When folks refer to dance tempo around 110 BPM. They are talking about 2 beats per measure. 1 & 3 for reels written in 4/4 and 1 & 4 for jigs written as 6/8
Some people do tap their foot once per measure or might set the metronome once per measure. But that is not the defacto unit of measure tempos are spoken in, it's "double" that, it's 2 beats per measure.
Your statement above is conflicting with itself. Your first statement in bold would make dance tempo 55 BPM (one beat per measure). Your last statement says it should have been 240 BPM (4 beats per measure). They conflict and are both incorrect (when communicating with other musicians). It's more or less always 2 beats per measure for jigs and reels when discussing it with others about BPM tempo. You can certainly tap you foot half that or double it, if you wish. But the BPM does not change. You can do what ever you want in your head.
Google Contra Dance tempo, or even look at the old thread I linked at the beginning. Nobody says 240 BPM. Nobody says 60 BPM. They all say 120 BPM (give or take). They are always assuming 2 beats per measure. Two dance steps per measure.
We are not talking how one likes to tap their foot or set their Metronome. We are talking about the unit in which Musicians communicate tempo in BPM, it's "normalized" to 2 beats per measure. It so happens most folks do set their Metronome to that rate as well as tap their foot at that rate, on the "down beat" (or major beats of a measure).
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/26/2012 05:33:22
TomGlos - Posted - 03/26/2012: 05:18:44
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
BPM (beats per minute) will ALWAYS refer to one beat counted per measure.
What? State your sources please!
So a standard speed reel would be 55BPM. If you mean measures per minute why not say so?
There are no rules in all this and it's a waste of time trying to discover them or make them up and try to make the real world fit the rule.
It's easy to tell roughly the normal or "full" or "proper" speed for a "reel" or whatever your fastish four-time tunes may be called.
It'll be somewhere around 50-60 measures per minute, 100-120 half-measures "foot taps" per minute, or 200-240 quarter notes per minute.
Different people use different terms and it's easy to guess which range they're in.
No one is going to believe that an irish reel at 110 quarter notes per minute is "right," no one is going to believe they should be playing it at 220 half measures a minute!
If it's not obvious, you have to find out what range someone is using. But there are no fixed rules.
My own opinion is that a metronome and hence the BPM is best set to the number of emphases per measure. That's two for a reel or a jig (usually notated 4:4 and 6:8)
Trying to play a reel with a metronome set at 240 could hide the pulse completely.
How can anyone say BPM "is always" when people use different ranges?
TomGlos - Posted - 03/26/2012: 07:25:22
..... of course, all these issues largely go away if we just follow the oft-repeated advice and listen to "good" players, in person or recorded.....
DougD - Posted - 03/26/2012: 08:56:49
mswlogo - As I think you've figured out by now, your problem is with the way the music you're looking at is written. 4/4 for a reel (four beats to a measure and a quarter note gets one beat) is simply incorrect - there are not four beats to a measure, as you know (unless maybe you're playing for dancing horses or something). I'm looking at a page of reels from Ryan's Mammoth Collection and "Miss McCloud's" is written in 2/4, which results in the main melody notes being sixteenth notes, which is a little busy looking. The other three on the page are in cut time (2/2) which results in the main melody notes being eighths, which is a little easier to read. Any of them could reasonably be played at 100-110 BPM. In glancing through O'Neill's Music of Ireland all the reels I saw are written in cut time also.
I would think you've heard enough by now though to know how fast a reel should be played for dancing without bothering with metronome markings anyway.
Edited by - DougD on 03/26/2012 09:00:13
mswlogo - Posted - 03/26/2012: 09:32:07
In my experience most of this stuff (when written) is written as 4/4. For example I have the portland collection books, some irish books, Brian Wicklund books they all use 4/4 (some 2/4 mixed in).
4/4 makes sense to me. I do think of a 4/4 measure as having 4 beats, but two that are Major beats (or emphasized beats) and two are Minor beats (A.K.A. the back beat).
Lot's of stylistic work I do with my teacher might be for example how you tie the back beat of the first half of the measure into the second half of the measure.
Or if I want to emphasize the back beat, because those other 2 beats do exist, I find it easier to think in 4/4 and I think that's why 4/4 is often used.
I think it's also used because it's not as busy looking as some of the other signatures. A phrase is often a tidy, 2 measures. I see patterns better than in 2/2 (too many bar lines).
Repeats with alternate endings tend to work out nicely too. 4/4 seems flexible. It's what ever your used to. Sometimes I will convert 2/2 to 4/4. Less measures to learn :)
6/8 Has the same problem as 4/4. It also has 2 Major beats. But has 4 back beats. DAH-du-du, DAH-du-du. The BPM is on the rate of DAH's.
I rambled on here because, I don't think folks are thinking through the numbers and both this thread and the old one have clearly some confusing responses.
Mudbug's response is an example that we are not all on the same page yet.
If you exclusively play by ear and never go near a computer or sheet music or a Metronome, you'll be fine.
I use all the above.
The only adjustment that has to be done is when folks talk about BPM around 4/4 (or 6/8) is that they don't include the "back beats" in that rate (pretty universally).
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/26/2012 09:43:26
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2012: 10:25:54
A tune written in 2/2 normally LOOKs exactly the same as 4/4, and does not have different amount of measures. Both are written with typically 8 eighth notes equivalent in a measure. The most common way 2/4 is used looks almost exactly the same, but uses sixteenth notes instead of eighth, still with 8 unit equivalent in a measure, still the same number of measures in a tune. There are no more or less "beats" in any of those. Nor does it actually change the accent or emphasis of any of the beats.
They all come out as Tick-a-tock-a-Tack-a-tock-a. A 2 on top directs you to count ONE-e-and-a-TWO-e-and-a; the 4 on top directs you to count ONE-and-two-and-THREE-and-four-and. Both follow a STRONG-soft-weak-soft-MID-soft-weak-soft.
The only variations on these that affect how many measures is sometimes tunes are written with 16 sixteenth notes equivalent in a measure (usually in 4/4) ONE-e-and-a-Two-e-and-a-THREE-e-and-a-Four-e-and-a. Essentially combining 2 measures into one. As well occasionally written with just 4 small units in a measure (usually in 2/4), essentially cutting the normal 8 unit in half. Both come in handy sometimes for some other readability factors.
Edit: mslogo - some folks do like to consider 4/4 as being the same concept as a compound meter. Like 6/8 is 2 groups of 3; 4/4 is 2 groups of 2. That's an okay way to think about it. The only problem with it has to do with terminology, "compound" is reserved for meters that have a group division of 3.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/26/2012 10:41:03
p1cklef1sh - Posted - 03/26/2012: 12:36:46
Sorry, I thought you were trying to resolve why your sheet music didnt match the tempo you wanted to play. I am currently practicing 2 pieces. one in cut time at 80 bpmin, and one in 4/4 at 152 bpmin. They are both quite peppy. I can only assume they are in these time signatures because the authors wanted a certain phrasing. So why are they about the same speed when played even though they have different tempos listed? because in cut time there are fewer beats per measure but still alot of notes to get through so you have to play faster to keep up? Sure you could play it in 4/4 time since there are still the equivalent of 4 quarter notes in each measure. Just an example of tempo listed being slower then the music sounds. hope it helps. Bonaparts retreat is 4/4 and Golden Slippers is cut time.
mudbug - Posted - 03/26/2012: 13:01:00
quote:
Originally posted by TomGlos
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
BPM (beats per minute) will ALWAYS refer to one beat counted per measure.
What? State your sources please!
So a standard speed reel would be 55BPM. If you mean measures per minute why not say so?
There are no rules in all this and it's a waste of time trying to discover them or make them up and try to make the real world fit the rule.
It's easy to tell roughly the normal or "full" or "proper" speed for a "reel" or whatever your fastish four-time tunes may be called.
It'll be somewhere around 50-60 measures per minute, 100-120 half-measures "foot taps" per minute, or 200-240 quarter notes per minute.
Different people use different terms and it's easy to guess which range they're in.
No one is going to believe that an irish reel at 110 quarter notes per minute is "right," no one is going to believe they should be playing it at 220 half measures a minute!
If it's not obvious, you have to find out what range someone is using. But there are no fixed rules.
My own opinion is that a metronome and hence the BPM is best set to the number of emphases per measure. That's two for a reel or a jig (usually notated 4:4 and 6:8)
Trying to play a reel with a metronome set at 240 could hide the pulse completely.
How can anyone say BPM "is always" when people use different ranges?
Tom, I was referring to usage of the term on sheet music. When a piece of sheet music states that a piece is in 4/4 and and a guarter note is x BPM, that was my criteria for saying it is always one beat per measure, as that's what the person who wrote the notation means . How others interpret the speed of a tune and what they choose to call BPM is not what I was referring to. Play it at whatever speed you choose to and tap your foot however many times you want. If the folks you are playing with understand you, that's all that matters. Problems occur, obviously, when two people have different deffinitions for terms.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/26/2012: 13:06:44
quote:
Originally posted by p1cklef1sh
Sorry, I thought you were trying to resolve why your sheet music didnt match the tempo you wanted to play. I am currently practicing 2 pieces. one in cut time at 80 bpmin, and one in 4/4 at 152 bpmin. They are both quite peppy. I can only assume they are in these time signatures because the authors wanted a certain phrasing. So why are they about the same speed when played even though they have different tempos listed? because in cut time there are fewer beats per measure but still alot of notes to get through so you have to play faster to keep up? Sure you could play it in 4/4 time since there are still the equivalent of 4 quarter notes in each measure. Just an example of tempo listed being slower then the music sounds. hope it helps. Bonaparts retreat is 4/4 and Golden Slippers is cut time.
These numbers confuse me, because I don't know your level of playing. I currently max out at around 80 BPM (4/4 2 beats per measure) (that's "peppy" to me). But still not "Dance Tempo".
If your 4/4 at 152 BPM tune is (assuming 2 beats per measure in your number). That's pretty blazing fast (to me). If you are that fast, then I assume your 80 BPM cut time tune is really 160 BPM (again really blazing fast). But if your like me where 80 BPM is "peppy". Then your 80 BPM might be similar to my top speed and your 152 BPM 4/4 (is including 4 beats per measure) and it's really 75 BPM (2 beats per measure 4/4). It's ambiguous because I don't know your level and it makes it worse by your using two different measurements just because the signature is different. They are both 75-80 BPM (emphasized beats per minute) or both 152-160 BPM (emphasized beats per minute) regardless of one written as cut time and one written as 4/4. Since you've been playing for 10 years I'm assuming your in the 152-160 BPM (blazing fast speed to me). Generally, people can't contra dance to tunes played faster than about 130-135 BPM.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/26/2012 13:10:56
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2012: 13:28:28
quote:
Originally posted by p1cklef1sh
Sorry, I thought you were trying to resolve why your sheet music didnt match the tempo you wanted to play. I am currently practicing 2 pieces. one in cut time at 80 bpmin, and one in 4/4 at 152 bpmin. They are both quite peppy. I can only assume they are in these time signatures because the authors wanted a certain phrasing. So why are they about the same speed when played even though they have different tempos listed? because in cut time there are fewer beats per measure but still alot of notes to get through so you have to play faster to keep up? Sure you could play it in 4/4 time since there are still the equivalent of 4 quarter notes in each measure. Just an example of tempo listed being slower then the music sounds. hope it helps. Bonaparts retreat is 4/4 and Golden Slippers is cut time.
Again there are the same number of "beats". You don't have to play any faster to keep up. That's not what affects how fast it sounds.
The only difference is in which level you are identifying the "beat" - which then is used to assign bpm.
Change your 152 example to 160, it is the same tempo as the other at 80. In both you can notice a recurring really strong pulse that occurs at every 40 bpm; another strong pulse one that occurs at every 80 bpm; and another slightly weaker pulse that occurs at 160 bpm, and a much weaker pulse that occurs at 320 bpm. All factors of 2. The tempo marking is just selecting one of those, for the most part either the 80 or the 160 level. But by stating the 160 level, does not weaken to feel of the 80, nor the 40.
Golden Slippers written in 4/4 at 160 (counting each 1/4 note), will sound just the same, just as fast as it does in cut time at 80 (counting each 1/2 note). As well, Bonaparte written in cut time will sound just the same.
Not that you can't decide to play them, articulate them, different if you choose, but the metric signature, related to the notation, doesn't tell you to do so.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/26/2012: 13:34:33
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
Tom, I was referring to usage of the term on sheet music. When a piece of sheet music states that a piece is in 4/4 and and a guarter note is x BPM, that was my criteria for saying it is always one beat per measure, as that's what the person who wrote the notation means . How others interpret the speed of a tune and what they choose to call BPM is not what I was referring to. Play it at whatever speed you choose to and tap your foot however many times you want. If the folks you are playing with understand you, that's all that matters. Problems occur, obviously, when two people have different deffinitions for terms.
Your basically defining the problem (again :) ). If you Google around for "Contra Dance Tempo", folks use emphasized beats per minute when communicating with each other. NOT the number of beats in the signature. You won't ever see dance tempo written as 60 (60 Measures Per Minute) or (240 Quarter Notes Per Minute) no matter what the signature is. That way it does not matter if it's written as 2/4, 2/2, 4/4, Cut or 6/8, they all agree on what the pace is. There may be no written music at all. If leader says let's take it up to 120 and the set has a tune written in 4/4 and another tune in 2/4 it's the same "120" pace. They don't think that the 4/4 is 240 and the 2/4 is 120. It's same unit of measure if you always think in emphasized beats per minute. Same speed to the dancers regardless of signature. Same calorie burn rate.
I used your second sentence and screwed myself. Folks consistently said 110-120 BPM for dance tempo. Folks are very consistent with that range and units. Software said 4 beats per measure on 4/4. I set the software to 120 BPM and go. Bzzzt, wrong. That's HALF speed. Software didn't know I needed emphasized beats per measure because that's what people use when talking dance tempos. And most of the fiddle music is "Dance" music.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/26/2012: 13:54:08
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
Again there are the same number of "beats". You don't have to play any faster to keep up. That's not what affects how fast it sounds.
I think this is where folks are getting hung up. It's the same number of emphasized beats (or strong beats, or down beats).
One sure fire way of getting folks on the same units is to time themselves one time through a "square" tune.
A square tune is typically AA-BB 8 Measures for A part, 8 Measures for B part. A total of 32 Measures for "1 time through".
Example Little Liza Jane abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=bon.../Jam/0012
For a dance tempo of around 110 BPM it should take you about 35 seconds for 1 time through (32 measures).
That's pretty fast if you have not been playing long. This is a pretty easy tune.
It does not matter if this tune was written 4/4, 2/4, 2/2 or Cut. It's STAYS 110 BPM (or 35 seconds for 1 time through).
p1cklef1sh - Posted - 03/26/2012: 20:03:40
I think the time signature is for the purpose of writing the music so all peoples can understand what is written. I think the tempo speed is a suggested speed so the piece sounds as intended. what ever beat of each measure you are emphasizing is up to you and I dont think you can use the time signature in a math calculation and be accurate. After all, it really doesnt matter as long as it sounds good. I know that when I teach someone time signatures and how to count a measure its the same tried and true method every time. each beat of the quarter note is one beat of the metronome. there are twice as many eigth notes as quarters and 4 times as many 16th etc... eigth notes are counted 1 and 2 and...etc. 16th notes get a ....1 e and a, 2 e and a, 3...etc. So it doesnt matter how many Beats per minute you are playing the notes get counted the same way. 2/4 is two beats per measure, 4/4 is 4 beats etc. These are basic theory rules that cant change because they are standard. Deciding to deviate from standard terms and definitions is something you may do to help you understand but I think you can see most people wont follow because its not standard. Determining up beats from back beats etc is way to in depth for my style of playing and my brain doesnt want to know. just sayin. ( 6/8 time is 6 beats per measure with the 8th note getting the beat)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature and
Edited by - p1cklef1sh on 03/26/2012 20:08:44
mswlogo - Posted - 03/26/2012: 21:01:41
quote:
Originally posted by p1cklef1sh
I think the time signature is for the purpose of writing the music so all peoples can understand what is written. I think the tempo speed is a suggested speed so the piece sounds as intended. what ever beat of each measure you are emphasizing is up to you and I dont think you can use the time signature in a math calculation and be accurate. After all, it really doesnt matter as long as it sounds good. I know that when I teach someone time signatures and how to count a measure its the same tried and true method every time. each beat of the quarter note is one beat of the metronome. there are twice as many eigth notes as quarters and 4 times as many 16th etc... eigth notes are counted 1 and 2 and...etc. 16th notes get a ....1 e and a, 2 e and a, 3...etc. So it doesnt matter how many Beats per minute you are playing the notes get counted the same way. 2/4 is two beats per measure, 4/4 is 4 beats etc. These are basic theory rules that cant change because they are standard. Deciding to deviate from standard terms and definitions is something you may do to help you understand but I think you can see most people wont follow because its not standard. Determining up beats from back beats etc is way to in depth for my style of playing and my brain doesnt want to know. just sayin. ( 6/8 time is 6 beats per measure with the 8th note getting the beat)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature and
What you said is all true. It's also what I did and got burned. Because that's not what "Contra Dance Musicians" do. They bend the rules a bit for convenience.
I don't know if this ignoring the beats in the signature and basically always using emphasized beats per minute (when stating BPM) is strictly a Contra Dance thing, or a Folk Music thing or what.
Perhaps it's never done in classical training and they would say 240 BPM (quarter notes per minute) for Contra Dance Tempo.
For the tempos we are talking about (i.e. ~35 seconds for 1 time through a typical square tune) for "Contra Dance" if you set a Metronome to tick every quarter note you'd have to set it to 240 BPM. You'd drive yourself crazy. Folks just don't do that. And at dance tempos folks don't tap their foot 240 taps per minute either for dance tempo, your foot would cramp. They divide everything by 2 (regardless of the time signature on the sheet of paper). Many players don't even have a sheet of paper even though the tune might have been written in 4/4. It's irrelevant.
Folk musicians use BPM to mean the rate dancers take steps !! 110 BPM slowish 130 BPM fastish. And that's it. It applies to all the reels and jigs. It so happens to be what most people would set their metronome to and tap their foot by too. It does not matter how it's written or composed. It does not even have to be written down at all. It's still 110-130 BPM (dance steps per minute).
Part of the reason why we emphasize beats 1 & 3 in 4/4 music is we are signalling to the dancers when to take a step (that's the dancers clock) !! Or if you're sittin one out, when to tap your foot :)
For contra dance music all the Music is played in this range 110-130. There is no suggestion that this piece be played slow and this other piece be played fast by the composer. It's really up to how good the dancers are, how good the band is, how late it is and the actual dance that sets the pace for all the tunes in a set.
A lot of fiddle music is related to this barn dance culture. Which has inflences from Irish and Europe etc.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/26/2012 21:08:58
mswlogo - Posted - 03/26/2012: 21:21:48
Maybe this will click with some folks. Notice they don't say anything about time signatures. BPM is Jog Steps Per minute here. Pretty narrow range too. 128-132
jog.fm/rock-workout-songs?bpm=...ate_added
Another example. My Snark tuner has BPM Meter in it. I just tap it to the "Down Beat" and it returns BPM. How does it know if the tune is in 4/4 or 2/2. It doesn't matter !!
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/26/2012 21:36:27
mswlogo - Posted - 03/27/2012: 18:10:30
Ok. So now that we have BPM on tunes written in 4/4 (and 6/8) sorted out (each contributes 2 emphasized beats per measure to "BPM"), it's Waltz time.
Is Waltz time (i.e. 3/4) 1 emphasized beat per measure or 3 or 1.5 ?
And for dumb software that I can't set 4/4 to be 1 Half note Beats, what do I set the Software to for a Waltz to get 84 BPM (software is showing quarter note gets a beat in 3/4)?
I googled around and Waltz dances are around 84 BPM. But I have my software set to 120 (Quarter Notes Per Minute) for Waltz and that feels like roughly Waltz time. I would think it would be either 80 or 80 * 3. Why is it roughly 1.5 * 80?
Is it 80 * 4 / 3? that gets me to 106 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Or is it 80 * 3 / 2 that gets me to 120 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Please don't tell me Waltz "Beat" (in the BPM) is also a half measure (Dotted Quarter)? Because that's what it appears to be coming out to.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/27/2012 18:12:09
OldNSlow - Posted - 03/27/2012: 19:12:16
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
Ok. So now that we have BPM on tunes written in 4/4 (and 6/8) sorted out (each contributes 2 emphasized beats per measure to "BPM"), it's Waltz time.
Is Waltz time (i.e. 3/4) 1 emphasized beat per measure or 3 or 1.5 ?
And for dumb software that I can't set 4/4 to be 1 Half note Beats, what do I set the Software to for a Waltz to get 84 BPM (software is showing quarter note gets a beat in 3/4)?
I googled around and Waltz dances are around 84 BPM. But I have my software set to 120 (Quarter Notes Per Minute) for Waltz and that feels like roughly Waltz time. I would think it would be either 80 or 80 * 3. Why is it roughly 1.5 * 80?
Is it 80 * 4 / 3? that gets me to 106 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Or is it 80 * 3 / 2 that gets me to 120 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Please don't tell me Waltz "Beat" (in the BPM) is also a half measure (Dotted Quarter)? Because that's what it appears to be coming out to.
LOL! If I had software that caused me that much grief, it would be uninstalled in a second, and if it came on a disk, that would make good target practice. I have taken higher math that didn't cause me that much trouble.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/27/2012: 20:21:10
quote:
Originally posted by OldNSlow
LOL! If I had software that caused me that much grief, it would be uninstalled in a second, and if it came on a disk, that would make good target practice. I have taken higher math that didn't cause me that much trouble.
It appears folks like Alaskafiddler, DougD and TomGlos do understand what I was running into. But someone like you that apperently doesn't, has to make a joke of it to participate, because they don't understand it.
It all makes perfect sense to me now, thanks to mainly AlaskaFiddler who immediately knew what was going on and fantastic explaination of why the discrepency.
There is nothing wrong with the software. It only works based on the beats in the signature, as some folks in this thread can only do as well. With AlaskaFiddler's help I could just switch the signature on my 4/4 tunes to 2/2 or just understand the BPM it shows is double what Musicians think in. Some software allows you to override the Beat in the signature for tempo purposes. Mine does not. It would not have mattered either, until I understood why I'd want to change it.
The thread should have ended after AlaskaFiddlers first excellent response. But it was obvious based on responses that several folks were still not understanding the discrepency (as was I) and I was trying to help them, now that I understood.
Now I want to make sure I understand Waltz time and don't make a similar mistake. Because something is not adding up.
For the record, I have a fair amount of math skills. Try googling "mswlogo" if you're curious.
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/27/2012 20:26:26
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/28/2012: 01:43:51
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
Ok. So now that we have BPM on tunes written in 4/4 (and 6/8) sorted out (each contributes 2 emphasized beats per measure to "BPM"), it's Waltz time.
Is Waltz time (i.e. 3/4) 1 emphasized beat per measure or 3 or 1.5 ?
And for dumb software that I can't set 4/4 to be 1 Half note Beats, what do I set the Software to for a Waltz to get 84 BPM (software is showing quarter note gets a beat in 3/4)?
I googled around and Waltz dances are around 84 BPM. But I have my software set to 120 (Quarter Notes Per Minute) for Waltz and that feels like roughly Waltz time. I would think it would be either 80 or 80 * 3. Why is it roughly 1.5 * 80?
Is it 80 * 4 / 3? that gets me to 106 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Or is it 80 * 3 / 2 that gets me to 120 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Please don't tell me Waltz "Beat" (in the BPM) is also a half measure (Dotted Quarter)? Because that's what it appears to be coming out to.
3/4, as a simple meter, there are 3 beats per measure, each beat is represented by a quarter note. Set your tempo (bpm) to the rate of the quarter notes. It's pretty straightforward.
84bpm is a pretty slow waltz. - 120bpm is not overly fast. Different types of waltzes have different tempi. For example a many Cajun waltzes are very slow bluesy tempo, feet stay pretty flat to the floor and glide. French Canadian waltzes tend peppy, and steppy, on the toes.
You can also do a check like you did in your previous post. Listen to a waltz, count measures and do the math. Many waltzes are similar to other fiddle tunes in that they are 32 measure long, AABB each part is 8 measures. So that's 96 beats one time through. At 96bpm one time through would take one minute. But there are many variations in length, so make sure you count the right amount of measures per part.
I believe there is software that allows you to tap in the steady beat, and then it tells you what it is. Be careful to be very steady in tapping.
DougD - Posted - 03/28/2012: 06:03:54
Back to your original problem, you can hear Henry Reed play "Ducks in the Pond" at this LOC website: memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/reed/ There is also a handwritten transcription by Alan Jabbour. Its in 4/4, and Henry Reed plays the tune at about 115-120 BPM (four beats per measure, quarter gets one beat, just as notated). You might compare this to the source you've been using - AFAIK Henry Reed is the sole source for this tune.
Alaskafiddler beat me with his comments about the appearance of music written in cut time (2/2), but its worth repeating. There are not "too many bar lines." As I said I have a page from Ryan's in front of me, and the three tunes in cut time have eight bars per part, and many "phrases" are two bars long. Easy to read, in my opinion.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012: 06:55:45
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
Ok. So now that we have BPM on tunes written in 4/4 (and 6/8) sorted out (each contributes 2 emphasized beats per measure to "BPM"), it's Waltz time.
Is Waltz time (i.e. 3/4) 1 emphasized beat per measure or 3 or 1.5 ?
And for dumb software that I can't set 4/4 to be 1 Half note Beats, what do I set the Software to for a Waltz to get 84 BPM (software is showing quarter note gets a beat in 3/4)?
I googled around and Waltz dances are around 84 BPM. But I have my software set to 120 (Quarter Notes Per Minute) for Waltz and that feels like roughly Waltz time. I would think it would be either 80 or 80 * 3. Why is it roughly 1.5 * 80?
Is it 80 * 4 / 3? that gets me to 106 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Or is it 80 * 3 / 2 that gets me to 120 Quarter Notes Per Minute to set the software by.
Please don't tell me Waltz "Beat" (in the BPM) is also a half measure (Dotted Quarter)? Because that's what it appears to be coming out to.
3/4, as a simple meter, there are 3 beats per measure, each beat is represented by a quarter note. Set your tempo (bpm) to the rate of the quarter notes. It's pretty straightforward.
84bpm is a pretty slow waltz. - 120bpm is not overly fast. Different types of waltzes have different tempi. For example a many Cajun waltzes are very slow bluesy tempo, feet stay pretty flat to the floor and glide. French Canadian waltzes tend peppy, and steppy, on the toes.
You can also do a check like you did in your previous post. Listen to a waltz, count measures and do the math. Many waltzes are similar to other fiddle tunes in that they are 32 measure long, AABB each part is 8 measures. So that's 96 beats one time through. At 96bpm one time through would take one minute. But there are many variations in length, so make sure you count the right amount of measures per part.
I believe there is software that allows you to tap in the steady beat, and then it tells you what it is. Be careful to be very steady in tapping.
I was wondering if 84 might be the issue. I googled "waltz BPM dance" and the first 3 hits showed in the 84-90 BPM range. Yet when my why and tried dancing in the living room around 120 felt right.
mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012: 07:03:14
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Back to your original problem, you can hear Henry Reed play "Ducks in the Pond" at this LOC website: memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/reed/ There is also a handwritten transcription by Alan Jabbour. Its in 4/4, and Henry Reed plays the tune at about 115-120 BPM (four beats per measure, quarter gets one beat, just as notated). You might compare this to the source you've been using - AFAIK Henry Reed is the sole source for this tune.
Alaskafiddler beat me with his comments about the appearance of music written in cut time (2/2), but its worth repeating. There are not "too many bar lines." As I said I have a page from Ryan's in front of me, and the three tunes in cut time have eight bars per part, and many "phrases" are two bars long. Easy to read, in my opinion.
You mean half note gets one beat if that's dance tempo. Typo I hope.
As Alaska mentioned you'll often see a Half Note = 120 just above the music to indicate this.
Here is an example: Notice it's in 4/4 but it says Half Note = 120 at the top, to make it clear.
abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=lee...eels/0022
If it was Quarter Note gets a beat it would be 240 (for that calorie burn rate).
In summary:
Waltz 3/4: Quarter Note Gets a Beat - ~120 BPM
Reel 4/4,2/2,2/4: Half Note Gets a Beat - ~ 120 BPM
Jig 6/8: Dotted Quarter Gets a Beat - ~ 120 BPM
Edited by - mswlogo on 03/28/2012 07:17:18
OldNSlow - Posted - 03/28/2012: 08:14:03
quote:
Originally posted by mswlogo
quote:
Originally posted by OldNSlow
LOL! If I had software that caused me that much grief, it would be uninstalled in a second, and if it came on a disk, that would make good target practice. I have taken higher math that didn't cause me that much trouble.
It appears folks like Alaskafiddler, DougD and TomGlos do understand what I was running into. But someone like you that apperently doesn't, has to make a joke of it to participate, because they don't understand it.
Don't worry. With your attitude, I won't waste time commenting on any of your subjects.
DougD - Posted - 03/28/2012: 08:32:47
No, its not a typo. Check out Henry Reed's playing and the transcription for yourself. There is no metronome indication on the transcription, but that's about how fast he's playing. From previous threads I know that you learn tunes by methods that seem very roundabout to me - abc to MIDI to notation, etc. So I thought I'd direct you to the source on this tune, and it just happens that there is a transcription correctly written in 4/4 time that works the way it should with a metronome. Your notion that there are always two beats to a measure in 4/4 is incorrect.
Also, I wouldn't say that "you'll often see a Half Note = 120 just above the music." Any note duration could be indicated there, but the convention is to use the bottom number from the time signature: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo#Be...er_minute
Here's a little online gizmo you might find useful: all8.com/tools/bpm.htm
alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/28/2012: 09:06:02
Alan Jabbour's transcription is in 4/4, and each quarter note gets the beat, and it is played at around 120bpm. There are 4 beats per measure. The difference is that his measures are twice as long (16 sixteenth notes) as what fiddle tunes are typically written in. It's not wrong, and demonstrates the a way 4/4 tune perhaps should be written. Most fiddle tunes notations are half as long measures with 8 units in a measure, which yield 2 beats per measure. So he uses each part is 4 measures rather than 8. Over the whole tune it still has the same number of beats.
Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/28/2012 09:09:45
ironworker - Posted - 03/28/2012: 09:46:56
from DougD "Here's a little online gizmo you might find useful: all8.com/tools/bpm.htm"
thanks for this, doug- that little app is a nice tool if you ever have a need for it.
the main site is fairly comprehensive, and imo, it's not a bad idea for fiddlers and other musicianers who play for dances to study up a bit on how callers and dancers have organized their art.
lots of good info here, and i'll continue to share this one around.
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