mudbug - Posted - 03/28/2012:  10:57:36

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

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Originally posted by mswlogo

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

LOL! If I had software that caused me that much grief, it would be uninstalled in a second, and if it came on a disk, that would make good target practice.  I have taken higher math that didn't cause me that much trouble. 

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It appears folks like Alaskafiddler, DougD and TomGlos do understand what I was running into. But someone like you that apperently doesn't, has to make a joke of it to participate, because they don't understand it.

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Don't worry.  With your attitude, I won't waste time commenting on any of your subjects.

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mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012:  11:11:00

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Originally posted by DougD

No, its not a typo. Check out Henry Reed's playing and the transcription for yourself. There is no metronome indication on the transcription, but that's about how fast he's playing. From previous threads I know that you learn tunes by methods that seem very roundabout to me - abc to MIDI to notation, etc. So I thought I'd direct you to the source on this tune, and it just happens that there is a transcription correctly written in 4/4 time that works the way it should with a metronome. Your notion that there are always two beats to a measure in 4/4 is incorrect.

Also, I wouldn't say that "you'll often see a Half Note = 120 just above the music." Any note duration could be indicated there, but the convention is to use the bottom number from the time signature: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo#Be...er_minute

Here's a little online gizmo you might find useful:  all8.com/tools/bpm.htm

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No Doug, I thought your were on the same page. The signature beat (most notably on 4/4) it is often not used when folks state BPM. Read Alaskas first post in this thread VERY carefully. I almost fell off my chair when it clicked and understood what he meant.

There are many ways of saying it. You can think of these tunes are really 2/2. You can think of emphasized beats per minute (not ALL beats in 4/4). Or like Doug had said you can think of 4/4 as a Compound Measure (2 sets of 2) and each set gets one beat (just like 6/8 does). 6/8 is not 6 beats per measure, is it? No, it's two beats per measure. And you end up around 120 BPM Dance tempo on JIGs too.

If I set my software (which is correct) to 120 Quarter Beats Per Minute on a 4/4 tune that is HALF dance tempo. 120 Quarter Notes Per Minute is SLOW (not dancable).

Think in Dance Steps Per Minute. Dancers take 2 Steps per measure when it's 4/4. Not 4.

My Summary above is correct.

By the way I could not find the specific tune you linked to. It just took me to the main page for the Musician.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/28/2012:  11:44:10

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Originally posted by mswlogo

If I set my software (which is correct) to 120 Quarter Beats Per Minute on a 4/4 tune that is HALF dance tempo. 120 Quarter Notes Per Minute is SLOW (not dancable).

Think in Dance Steps Per Minute. Dancers take 2 Steps per measure when it's 4/4. Not 4.

My Summary above is correct.

By the way I could not find the specific tune you linked to. It just took me to the main page for the Musician.

 

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 You and Doug are on the same page in regard to identifying the same "beat" - and it's the same "beats per minute"  what is different in his example from Jabbour's transcription is what constitutes one measure.

memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?...em_qxIW::

If you compare that then to the Portland Collection (which I don't have in front of me so I am assuming) or the typical way Ducks, or a tune like Ducks would be notated; notice the amount of notes, and measures, where the bar lines are. Both are correct in that regard. Since most tunes are notated half as long measures, then yes, the "beat" is two per measure. It does not actually change how you play it or how it feels. And dancers step to the same beat. It is still conveying 4 smallest note equivalent per beat.

BTW you could have also fixed your midi issue by doing the same thing, essentially making two measures (in the Portland) as one measure (erase every other bar line). But then you would have had to also convert all the note values into half the value, all 1/8s become 1/16 notes, as Jabbour did. The reason you more typically see the shorter measure, has to do with a few things folks prefer to read (something Doug mentioned) They don't like sixteenth notes, and prefer reading quarter's and eighth's. As well they prefer 8 notes in a measure, 16 notes in a measure is just too long for them, as a preference. As well 16 runs into some problems with about any amount of crookedness. As well some folks do have a slight mis-perception of what happens or is supposed to happen at a bar line. Again, doubling the meter length does not affect the playing or feel.

Edit: if you take Jabbours notation and split each measure into 2 measures, adding bars, you end up with 2 beats (as you defined them) per measure, and without changing the note values, would write it as 2/4. Simple math 2/4 plus 2/4 is 4/4. What confuses these matters is when the tunes get notated with the shorter (8 per measure) and then still want to use 4/4. I will think about a post regarding that.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/28/2012 11:51:56

mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012:  11:47:12

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Originally posted by mudbug

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

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Originally posted by mswlogo

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

LOL! If I had software that caused me that much grief, it would be uninstalled in a second, and if it came on a disk, that would make good target practice.  I have taken higher math that didn't cause me that much trouble. 

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It appears folks like Alaskafiddler, DougD and TomGlos do understand what I was running into. But someone like you that apperently doesn't, has to make a joke of it to participate, because they don't understand it.

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Don't worry.  With your attitude, I won't waste time commenting on any of your subjects.

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I wish you would not think that way. I was insulted when you said to shoot my software. Your insulting my choice of software. There is nothing wrong with software.

It's the confusion this topic is trying to sort out. I've seen similar threads on Banjohangout, but they didn't have Alaska  :) I know some folks say, I don't have any issue. I thought exactly the same thing until read Alaska's first reply and my chin fell to the floor.

mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012:  12:07:49

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

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Originally posted by mswlogo

If I set my software (which is correct) to 120 Quarter Beats Per Minute on a 4/4 tune that is HALF dance tempo. 120 Quarter Notes Per Minute is SLOW (not dancable).

Think in Dance Steps Per Minute. Dancers take 2 Steps per measure when it's 4/4. Not 4.

My Summary above is correct.

By the way I could not find the specific tune you linked to. It just took me to the main page for the Musician.

 

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 You and Doug are on the same page in regard to identifying the same "beat" - and it's the same "beats per minute"  what is different in his example from Jabbour's transcription is what constitutes one measure.

memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?...em_qxIW::

If you compare that then to the Portland Collection (which I don't have in front of me so I am assuming) or the typical way Ducks, or a tune like Ducks would be notated; notice the amount of notes, and measures, where the bar lines are. Both are correct in that regard. Since most tunes are notated half as long measures, then yes, the "beat" is two per measure. It does not actually change how you play it or how it feels. And dancers step to the same beat. It is still conveying 4 smallest note equivalent per beat.

BTW you could have also fixed your midi issue by doing the same thing, essentially making two measures (in the Portland) as one measure (erase every other bar line). But then you would have had to also convert all the note values into half the value, all 1/8s become 1/16 notes, as Jabbour did. The reason you more typically see the shorter measure, has to do with a few things folks prefer to read (something Doug mentioned) They don't like sixteenth notes, and prefer reading quarter's and eighth's. As well they prefer 8 notes in a measure, 16 notes in a measure is just too long for them, as a preference. As well 16 runs into some problems with about any amount of crookedness. As well some folks do have a slight mis-perception of what happens or is supposed to happen at a bar line. Again, doubling the meter length does not affect the playing or feel.

Edit: if you take Jabbours notation and split each measure into 2 measures, adding bars, you end up with 2 beats (as you defined them) per measure, and without changing the note values, would write it as 2/4. Simple math 2/4 plus 2/4 is 4/4. What confuses these matters is when the tunes get notated with the shorter (8 per measure) and then still want to use 4/4. I will think about a post regarding that.

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I'm gonna have to take your word for it on this one. You're always right on the mark and I apoligize to Doug if interpreted his example wrong.

Thanks also for digging out the the link to the reference.

That one sure is tricky. I need some help how to map Dougs comment (which you said is correct) onto it.

I see 16 measures in 4/4 (up to the comment that says "Played thru 3 times"). I think a barline is missing in the last measure.

I assume (you know what that means) that two times through is 32 measures (1 time through a dance 35 second tempo - 120 BPM)? If it is, why isn't again a Half note gets a beat? Unless it's not Dance Tempo.

Or is it 3 times through the first 16 measures and 1 time through the bottom part for (1 time through a dance)? If it's this, I'm confused why it's notated as 4/4, and roughly 64 measures for one time through.

I'm also lost why the bottom part is 13 measures or so.

This tune probably deserves a seperate thread. There might be some repeated sections I'm not seeing.

I know there are many way to address the MIDI player. None would help unless I knew what was going on.

Most tunes from ABCNotation actually imported as 240 Quarter Note Per minute. But because so many folks said 4 Beats to a 4/4 Measure and Dance Tempo is 120 BPM (often in teh same sentence) I stupidly changed it to 120, all I had to do what change it back to 240 and know that is double what musicians think in. Jig's, 2/2, 2/4 were always fine.

Edited by - mswlogo on 03/28/2012 12:12:05

OldNSlow - Posted - 03/28/2012:  12:58:13

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Originally posted by mswlogo

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Originally posted by mudbug

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

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Originally posted by mswlogo

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

LOL! If I had software that caused me that much grief, it would be uninstalled in a second, and if it came on a disk, that would make good target practice.  I have taken higher math that didn't cause me that much trouble. 

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It appears folks like Alaskafiddler, DougD and TomGlos do understand what I was running into. But someone like you that apperently doesn't, has to make a joke of it to participate, because they don't understand it.

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Don't worry.  With your attitude, I won't waste time commenting on any of your subjects.

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I wish you would not think that way. I was insulted when you said to shoot my software. Your insulting my choice of software. There is nothing wrong with software.

It's the confusion this topic is trying to sort out. I've seen similar threads on Banjohangout, but they didn't have Alaska  :) I know some folks say, I don't have any issue. I thought exactly the same thing until read Alaska's first reply and my chin fell to the floor.

 

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I guess you missed the two big grin emoticons which indicated that it was all in fun.  But, what the hell do I know?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/28/2012:  13:24:00

Yes, a bar line is missing in the last measure, it is 16 measures. But it's 16 measures through the whole tune. Notice he did not put in repeat signs. While it still conforms to an AABB structure, he wrote each part fully out. The first 4 measures are A1, the next 4 A2, the next 4 B1, the last 4 B2. He was after transcribing an actual performance, so it made sense to do it that way, specifically the second time through, and the second A was played slightly different than the first A; as were the B parts. It's not exactly for the same purpose the tune would be in a tune collection, to indicate how to play the tune, rather just how Henry played it, from a ethnomusic view.

The bottom part after is I believe showing variations Henry employed in the other 2 times through the tune. Note the little a, b , c, d, e, f.. footnotes. And rather than writing out the full measure, just the little snippet.

It doesn't deserve a separate thread IMO, because it still remains a standard straight AABB tune, exactly as any contra tune (and it works well for that). Listen to Henry play it. Dance your favorite contra along to it (via it's beat). It has 64 beats (foot steps) one time through the tune, each part is 16 beats (footsteps), and there are 4 even parts. At 128 beats (steps) per minute, it takes 30 seconds. Again the only difference is in the notation. In one measure the dance would be stepping right, left, right, left (4); whereas in the Portland notation where one measure would just be right left. but the steps come at the same rate. 

Nothing really tricky about the tune in that regard, you just have to perhaps reconsider your definition of what a measure is; wrap your head around the notion that a measure (meter) can be conveyed in a longer (double) framework. Should point out that it is about the perceptual, and can be perceived either way; Henry was probably not "playing" from notation, the concepts of 4/4, 2/2, 2/4 and how long a measure is, are notational, merely symbolic representations. And at the perception and discretion of the notator, what they think will best convey. Again listen to it. 

It does bring up the point (I'm still working on a post) on how folks get certain ideas about what the "rules" are; generally based on they've only come across certain examples. For example there is no "rule" that Jabbour violated, nor bent, nor reinterpreted to make math work, but folks might think so because they are used to seeing measures half as long and think "that's the rule". Same applies to some other aspects of notation, dealing with quarter notes, and meter signatures, and "beat" - which IMO forming these strict artificial rules is what confuses folks.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/28/2012 13:34:08

mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012:  13:43:47

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

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Originally posted by mswlogo

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Originally posted by mudbug

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

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Originally posted by mswlogo

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

LOL! If I had software that caused me that much grief, it would be uninstalled in a second, and if it came on a disk, that would make good target practice.  I have taken higher math that didn't cause me that much trouble. 

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It appears folks like Alaskafiddler, DougD and TomGlos do understand what I was running into. But someone like you that apperently doesn't, has to make a joke of it to participate, because they don't understand it.

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Don't worry.  With your attitude, I won't waste time commenting on any of your subjects.

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I wish you would not think that way. I was insulted when you said to shoot my software. Your insulting my choice of software. There is nothing wrong with software.

It's the confusion this topic is trying to sort out. I've seen similar threads on Banjohangout, but they didn't have Alaska  :) I know some folks say, I don't have any issue. I thought exactly the same thing until read Alaska's first reply and my chin fell to the floor.

 

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I guess you missed the two big grin emoticons which indicated that it was all in fun.  But, what the hell do I know?

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You put the same grin with the "with your attitude" comment. I don't know how to interpret that. You sounded upset. Really, I don't want to piss you or any one off.

This issue caught me off guard. It's only 4/4 tunes that really have this little snag.

OldNSlow - Posted - 03/28/2012:  14:28:29

Don't know how that one got there.  I  am not to the point where I am even trying to work on timing and such, except to stay with the tunes.  I am still just learning bowing, fingering, intonation, and trying to get a good tone.  I work 100 percent from ear.  Can't read a lick of music and am not ready to at this point.   Too much information at once, I guess.  I just try not to read too much into anything like that.  If it plays well, and sounds like it is in the correct time, I'm good with that.  Contra dances and that stuff is beyond me at this time.  Tough to do.  Tough on the players, no matter who they are. 

So I stick to the simple things for now.  Later on I might want to mess my mind up with the complicated things.  I stuck my "humorous" comment in there to try and lighten the angst that you were having with the problem.  I could tell that it was working on you.  But I guess I failed.  One serious comment, though, and take it for what it's worth:  Don't try to overthink this stuff.  It's easy to do, especially if you have done intellectual things all your life.  And when you get into that mode, it isn't really helping you.  I was always told "drop it for a while" when I got tangled up in something tough and was beating on it as hard as I could.  Rarely listened to that advice.  I wish I had listened more.  It's even more important to let things drop and lie a while with music, because it does not give in to a pure intellectual approach or brute force, either.   If I get tangled up, I am quick to let it lie a while and come back to it later.  Works better for me in my old age that way.

Old

One last comment:  I have no idea where that last smiley came from.  Maybe me or maybe from a cut and paste thing I did.  Sometimes I hit keys that I don't really want to and it shows up later to my embarassment.

Edited by - OldNSlow on 03/28/2012 14:31:50

DougD - Posted - 03/28/2012:  14:49:31

I think Mudbug added the emoticon when he cut and pasted the quote.

Don't know what else I have to add right now. I'm trying to find the crevice tool for the vacuum cleaner. I would say that you wouldn't have this problem if you weren't trying to use the metronome. You go to contra dances, listen to contra dance musicians, and I think maybe play for some. The caller should know how fast they want the tune. Most do not have metronome markings, and a few beats one way or another are not going to reveal any hidden secrets. All reels are about "moderato" in tempo, maybe "allegro." Beyond that its up to you, the caller and the dancers. I was surprised how quickly Henry Reed played "Duck in the Pond." I like to play it slower than that - it reminds me of a chilly fall morning when the ducks are heading south, not a dance tune at all (although it is).

Sorry I didn't link you directly to that tune - I thought you'd know to browse the titles list. Lots of good stuff to read and listen to on that site.

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 03/28/2012:  15:53:19

KCFiddles - Posted - 03/28/2012:  16:31:15

One of my favorite quotes: "Beyond the grasp of our intellect, there is a mysteriously effective intelligence." As a recovering "intellectual", I try to pay a LOT of attention to that "intelligence beyond intellect". Most of the things that really count are pretty much beyond intellect (love, social grace, leadership, loyalty, humor, music, creativeness, intuition, fear, anger...........)

I believe wholeheartedly that music, while it yields somewhat to analysis, is anything but an intellectual endeavor.  Ya just have to feel it. Feel the beat, feel the way a tune flows, feel the way it makes you feel when you listen, and then try to make it happen the way you want it to.

Just the other day, learning tunes off a CD, I realized that I had started learning the tunes as a whole "gestalt", not so much phrase by phrase any more.  Sure took a while.

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 03/28/2012:  17:14:14

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Originally posted by fiddlerjoebob

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Hey Fiddlerjoebob, that was my favorite comment on this thread...except for last post from Woodwiz.  

mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012:  19:18:36

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Originally posted by OldNSlow

Don't know how that one got there.  I  am not to the point where I am even trying to work on timing and such, except to stay with the tunes.  I am still just learning bowing, fingering, intonation, and trying to get a good tone.  I work 100 percent from ear.  Can't read a lick of music and am not ready to at this point.   Too much information at once, I guess.  I just try not to read too much into anything like that.  If it plays well, and sounds like it is in the correct time, I'm good with that.  Contra dances and that stuff is beyond me at this time.  Tough to do.  Tough on the players, no matter who they are. 

So I stick to the simple things for now.  Later on I might want to mess my mind up with the complicated things.  I stuck my "humorous" comment in there to try and lighten the angst that you were having with the problem.  I could tell that it was working on you.  But I guess I failed.  One serious comment, though, and take it for what it's worth:  Don't try to overthink this stuff.  It's easy to do, especially if you have done intellectual things all your life.  And when you get into that mode, it isn't really helping you.  I was always told "drop it for a while" when I got tangled up in something tough and was beating on it as hard as I could.  Rarely listened to that advice.  I wish I had listened more.  It's even more important to let things drop and lie a while with music, because it does not give in to a pure intellectual approach or brute force, either.   If I get tangled up, I am quick to let it lie a while and come back to it later.  Works better for me in my old age that way.

Old

One last comment:  I have no idea where that last smiley came from.  Maybe me or maybe from a cut and paste thing I did.  Sometimes I hit keys that I don't really want to and it shows up later to my embarassment.

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I mentioned this issue to my teacher. She understood the confusion immediately and her answer was. "Fiddle Tunes are really 2/4". Just like Alaska said 30 posts ago that I immediately understood. Wish I learned it sooner.

I use all the above. I play by ear, I play in a contra band (barely, struggling keeping up, I'm great at skipping notes), constantly listening to and playing along the portland collection, rodney miller, HotViolinist etc. But I had to slow them down quite a bit (60%).

I thought I was keeping up fine with the MIDI player because they are not as complex (mostly from ABCNotation). I use this tool because it's helped me a ton to learn, to transcribe, change keys, learn to play in multiple keys, chords etc. Sometimes I figure out the chords myself if I don't have them. It's been great tool during lessons. I mark up all the comments from the teacher right on the score. Hold Finger Down here. Watch your intonation here. Slur this, Slur that. DON'T GET THIS NOTE WRONG, it's the most important note of the whole tune (I love when she says that). I'd never be able to keep track of all the information she gives me.

I've written some awesome exercises to help learn to accent the back beat. I had to start REALLY REALLY slow. Like 20 BPM to get my brain to do it. I can almost do a new tune by ear now, but not quite.

I thought the Albums I was playing along with were faster than Dance Tempo or more complex (wishful thinking). So I just lived with it that those were up to 70% and the MIDI I set to 140 BPM (quarters) and thinking I was doing way past Dance Tempo and Portland and Rodney play way faster. I was completely wrong. I realized when I wall clocked time a Portland tune. Portland and Rodney are at Dance tempo (My goal is to play that speed, PERIOD, some day).

My goal is to play my reel at contests this year at "Dance Tempo", even if my tone and intonation suffer a bit. I'll pull a few notes out if I have to. I have to get used to this tempo. I think it will force some corrections in my playing. I don't mind playing a little under dance tempo. 100 BPM is my goal.

The MIDI (since it was in Quarters) was really 70 BPM (by how Dance Tempo is Measured).

Jigs were fine and I play those at 100 BPM. Waltz are fine 120 BPM. Polkas etc. anything in 2/4 were fine 120 BPM. If it was a dumbed down Reel (like those in Book 1 of Wicklund) I can play those at 200 BPM (quarter notes) (I thought wow, I can play double dance tempo, I'm good :) ).

If it's a tune loaded with measure after measure of all 1/8 notes and string crossings, I poop out at 75 Beats per minute (but I thought it was 150, because it's 1/4 note per beat).

I work on intonation, tone, lift, bowings, vibrato [which is doing fantastic], and music theory etc. But I'm also working on getting speed up to snuff. I need to raise it's priority (relative to like Vibrato) because I didn't know how far I have to go.

I was stupid. I DIDN'T Think hard enough. I should have known better. It took a good while to get to HALF dance tempo. I just have a little more work than I thought.

Folks are correct, if you just do everything by ear, it's not an issue. All you need to know is 120 is faster than 110. That's not how I want to do it. I want to read music at tempo. Or play by ear. Or learn by ear. Or sing a tune in my head just by looking at piece of Paper. I may even dable in trying to write something.

I see players that can't touch sheet music and I (as a beginner) see the disadvantage. I'll have the lead fiddler ask me to play the first few notes of the sheet of paper to get the tune in his head. I also see folks that can only read music and are dead in the water if they can't find the music. I want BOTH. And tools like I've been using, it does not matter which, take your pick are great.

I got some awesome tips tonight on speed from my teacher, which I already knew and forgot, dam it. Sometimes you need to be reminded a few 100 times.

Again. I GOT IT. I got it 30 posts ago by Alaska. Some folks that only play by ear and don't read music, or use the computer may have no idea what were talking about. And that's fine. But please don't tell me I'm over thinking. I was an idiot and didn't think.

Like Alaska said, if it feels wrong, double it or half it. When your starting out, "half it", can seem pretty fast too.

Edited by - mswlogo on 03/28/2012 19:26:27

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/28/2012:  20:04:09

I don't disagree with advice of just listening and feeling the beat; and dancing. In context of just experiencing, I don't think folks should be at all concerned or refer to quantitative symbols of notation; Especially don't use the terms, quarter note, eight note, and probably avoid concern if it's 2/2, 2/4, 4/4 common time or cut time; those things are really just in reference to notation.  I don't even put much stock in counting, I prefer just focusing on the rhythm of the beat (and subbeats) and using mnemonics (as I've seen folks get to focused on quantitative counting rather than listening). The original post was however about notation how to interpret these things (both in reading and writing). And as happens a lot there is much conflicting definitions and terminology, mostly around 4/4, and what they think things mean, what they read, or thought they read in a book, or heard.

Central to this conflict is based most of the time is the concept of "the beat" - which you need to know to understand bpm. And is where things should start. "The beat" concept is different than what folks might call "beats". The concept of "the beat" is IMO, important whether notation is involved or not, and should not change simply because of notation. When writing notation it should be based on, start with "the beat" - not the other way around (to conform to other beliefs). Identifying the beat should happen before you concern yourself with how many beats in a measure, how long a measure is, or metric signature, and whether they are half, quarter or eighth notes.

So how do we define "THE BEAT"? First off, the most common usage is it's based on the strong perceptual feel. To which then have subdivisions to help reinforce that feel. So what is the felt, perceived "beat" of most of these fiddle tunes? It is exactly as mswlogo thinks of it, and described with the contra dancer analogy.

So there were some comments I think should be addressed. One is that contra dancers (who are not reading music) and the folks musicians are NOT bending any "rules" (including of any music theory) for convenience, nor "Deciding to deviate from standard terms and definitions is something you may do to help you understand" - as a matter of fact, they are using the standard term regarding "the beat" that most musicians use. Including classical, if you look at that wiki, and the reference to Italian terms like "Moderato — moderately (108–120 bpm); Allegro — fast, quickly and bright (120–168 bpm)"  

Simple test - have the fiddler play the old NS potatoes intro (which is designed to establish "beat" -

Dum-daba-Dum-daba-Dum-daba-Dum (then into the tune) What is "the Beat" - how many beats is that? For almost every musician I know they would say only the Dum is "the beat" and there are four beats to that. As well would tap there foot to that for "the beat"

Seems pretty straight forward. So why the confusion?

quote:

---

...I teach someone time signatures and how to count a measure its the same tried and true method every time. each beat of the quarter note is one beat of the metronome. there are twice as many eigth notes as quarters and 4 times as many 16th etc... eigth notes are counted 1 and 2 and...etc. 16th notes get a ....1 e and a, 2 e and a, 3...etc. So it doesnt matter how many Beats per minute you are playing the notes get counted the same way. 2/4 is two beats per measure, 4/4 is 4 beats etc. These are basic theory rules that cant change because they are standard. Deciding to deviate from standard terms and definitions is something you may do to help you understand but I think you can see most people wont follow because its not standard.   

...( 6/8 time is 6 beats per measure with the 8th note getting the beat) 

---

That's why, many statements like this. This is actually NOT the basic standard rules or definition. And in the 6/8 not at all. This starts with a rather fixed concept of quarter note, and generally is tied in with, quarter note always gets the beat; and is generally tied to mis-informed concepts folks have in that the music should be 4/4. Using all of those aspects first. So fiddle tunes sometimes get written in 4/4 in the short 8 note measure. Which using these carved in stone ideas, not wanting to deviate, redefine, gives them the double tapped identity to "THE BEAT" (high bpm)- unfortunately it is in contrast and essentially it is deviating (redefining) from what folks refer to as "THE BEAT" - certainly causing some confusion, but as well, IMO diminishes the strong concept of "THE BEAT" - Some folks using these definitions realize this and then need to add another qualifier stating the 1 and 3 get emphasized. Essentially going back to identifying "THE BEAT" as the single tap concept (1 and 3) two beats per measure. Which is making the the 4/4 more like a compound meter idea - two beats per measure, and then subdivided into smaller beats. What is referred to "THE BEAT" in jigs (compound duple) in music theory is the two, not the 6 1/8 notes.  To which you would then express it as the lower bpm. In a jig you would never tap your foot 360 times a minute, and it would tend to lose the feel of the Two. Which is why I don't like the double tap idea, as I see many folks do that (along with counting to keep there place)and their playing sounds like it (evenly timed but lacking any strong beat layout) - BTW those potatoes mentioned above, if preeceding a tune in short 4/4, at 210 bpm would be 8 beats. Never ran across anyone who thought that way. But how confusing would it be to sate the potato beat at 105 but when you start playing the tune you have to switch?

quote:

---

Originally posted by p1cklef1sh

I think the time signature is for the purpose of writing the music so all peoples can understand what is written. 

---

 

Absolutely. And part of that is understanding intent, and especially intent of "the beat". IMO the best way to do that is to start with the common concept of  "THE BEAT". Using that as a guide, almost all of these fiddle tunes would probably be better written as 2/2, 2/4 or as Alan Jabbour did by making the measure twice as long. If you are reading these fiddle tunes, focus on the intended beat, and if written in the short 4/4, think of it like compound two strong beats (with beat subdivision) as that is most likely what is intended. Focus on the beat first and it's not as complicated as it seems.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 03/28/2012 20:22:56

mswlogo - Posted - 03/28/2012:  21:08:03

Thanks for another great explaination Alaska and sticking with this, I learned a lot in this thread, I hope some others have too. I also appreciate the correction that no rules are really being "bent". I had wondered which "Beat" was being referenced when I saw Moderato — moderately (108–120 bpm); Allegro — fast, quickly and bright (120–168 bpm)" etc. When I found that jogging website using BPM on Pop tunes, I was pretty sure it was universal across all music (not just contra dance fiddle).

myshkin - Posted - 04/16/2012:  12:42:29

Okay, this is the post that stops my lurking and prompts an actual comment.

So, here's the deal: the problem is confusion about the difference between METER and TIME SIGNATURE.

A time signature is basically the "decoder ring" for the written rhythm of a tune. So, 4/4 tells you that each bar of written music is going to contain 4 quarter notes. It doesn't tell you anything about how fast or slow a song is. The same song could be written in 4/2 or 4/8 or any other time signature divisible by four beats per measure-- it basically depends on how "busy" the measure is and how much ink you want to waste scribbling sixteenth notes rather than eighth notes.

Meter, on the other hand, describes how a tune FEELS. Ideally, the written time signature should reflect the meter. The meter of a tune describes where the pulse of the music falls. I should point out that what is meant by the Pulse is exactly what Alaska is calling "The Beat" in his most recent post. What can be confusing is that most musicians (and computer programs) use the same terminology to describe time signature and meter.

So, what are the common meters?
4/4 is the most common in classical and pop music. One measure has 4 pulses and a measure of 8 eighth notes should feel the same as saying "rosin, rosin, rosin, rosin" Think of the pulse of a Hornpipe and you got it.

2/2 meter is usually referred to as cut time and this is the most common meter in fiddle music as it is the basic meter for Reels. It's also super confusing because most WRITTEN fiddle music incorrectly has a 4/4 time signature at the beginning of it. A written measure of 4/4 is indistinguishable from a written measure of cut time: both have 8 eighth notes. In cut time, however, there are only 2 pulses per measure so 8 eighth notes should sound like saying "Generator, Generator."

3/4 (waltz) meter and 6/8 (jig) meter have a similar relationship. Both have 6 eighth notes in every measure, but the waltz has 3 pulses (cherry, cherry, cherry) and the jig has two pulses per measure (strawberry, strawberry.)

I can't tell you how big a pain in the rear it is that reels are so often notated in 4/4 time instead of the correct cut time when I have to play with non-fiddlers, especially folks who are GOOD at sight reading, since they automatically play all their reels like hornpipes simply because of the incorrectly notated meter.

mswlogo - Posted - 04/16/2012:  13:22:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by myshkin

Okay, this is the post that stops my lurking and prompts an actual comment.



So, here's the deal: the problem is confusion about the difference between METER and TIME SIGNATURE.



A time signature is basically the "decoder ring" for the written rhythm of a tune. So, 4/4 tells you that each bar of written music is going to contain 4 quarter notes. It doesn't tell you anything about how fast or slow a song is. The same song could be written in 4/2 or 4/8 or any other time signature divisible by four beats per measure-- it basically depends on how "busy" the measure is and how much ink you want to waste scribbling sixteenth notes rather than eighth notes.



Meter, on the other hand, describes how a tune FEELS. Ideally, the written time signature should reflect the meter. The meter of a tune describes where the pulse of the music falls. I should point out that what is meant by the Pulse is exactly what Alaska is calling "The Beat" in his most recent post. What can be confusing is that most musicians (and computer programs) use the same terminology to describe time signature and meter.



So, what are the common meters?

4/4 is the most common in classical and pop music. One measure has 4 pulses and a measure of 8 eighth notes should feel the same as saying "rosin, rosin, rosin, rosin" Think of the pulse of a Hornpipe and you got it.



2/2 meter is usually referred to as cut time and this is the most common meter in fiddle music as it is the basic meter for Reels. It's also super confusing because most WRITTEN fiddle music incorrectly has a 4/4 time signature at the beginning of it. A written measure of 4/4 is indistinguishable from a written measure of cut time: both have 8 eighth notes. In cut time, however, there are only 2 pulses per measure so 8 eighth notes should sound like saying "Generator, Generator."



3/4 (waltz) meter and 6/8 (jig) meter have a similar relationship. Both have 6 eighth notes in every measure, but the waltz has 3 pulses (cherry, cherry, cherry) and the jig has two pulses per measure (strawberry, strawberry.)



I can't tell you how big a pain in the rear it is that reels are so often notated in 4/4 time instead of the correct cut time when I have to play with non-fiddlers, especially folks who are GOOD at sight reading, since they automatically play all their reels like hornpipes simply because of the incorrectly notated meter.

---

Good post, thanks !!! One othe thing that might clarify things is some tunes include a "Metronome" marking (or Tempo Marking) on the sheet music.

Notice in this example it is (HALF note = 120 ) even though the tune is written in 4/4, It it was written in Cut Time the Metronome marking would remain the same.

abcnotation.com/tunePage?a=lee...eels/0007

Here is a good description of it.

piano.about.com/od/basicmusica...L_BPM.htm

Sometimes you'll see the same tempo written in the Metronome marking as (Quarter = 240), but that's not how musicians "Speak the lingo".

Edited by - mswlogo on 04/16/2012 13:23:10

KCFiddles - Posted - 04/16/2012:  13:52:44

quote:

---

I can't tell you how big a pain in the rear it is that reels are so often notated in 4/4 time instead of the correct cut time when I have to play with non-fiddlers, especially folks who are GOOD at sight reading, since they automatically play all their reels like hornpipes simply because of the incorrectly notated meter.

---

Amen to that!  I transcribe all my fiddle music into 2/4 time.  When you are learning a tune from dots and using a metronome, it is SOOOOO much easier to keep the beat and make it sound like a fiddle tune should.  My biggest gripe with Band in a Box, and the main reason I don't use it much any more, is the fact that, at least up to the version that  I have, they just don't have any 2/4 or 2/2  backing styles.

Good explanation, BTW!

DougD - Posted - 04/16/2012:  18:40:41

myshkin - Hear hear! If you look at the great 19th century collections, like Ryan's (later Cole's 1000 fiddle tunes) and O'Neill's Music of Ireland, as well as earlier American and Scottish collections, reels are notated (correctly) in cut time or 2/4. I don't know where the idea of notating reels in 4/4 comes from, but no amount of jiggering the definition of a time signature or metronome markings makes it right.

Now that I think about it I already said this in the second page of this thread!

Edited by - DougD on 04/16/2012 18:51:32

mswlogo - Posted - 04/16/2012:  18:57:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

myshkin - Hear hear! If you look at the great 19th century collections, like Ryan's (later Cole's 1000 fiddle tunes) and O'Neill's Music of Ireland, as well as earlier American and Scottish collections, reels are notated (correctly) in cut time or 2/4. I don't know where the idea of notating reels in 4/4 comes from, but no amount of jiggering the definition of a time signature or metronome markings makes it right.

---

The reason 4/4 is used (instead of 2/4) is to reduce all the barred notes.

4/4 with 1/4's and 1/8's is less busy than 2/4 with 1/8's and 1/16's

The size of the notes is relative to the Tempo anyway.

There might be other reasons too.

This probably is where folks are confused.

If folks are used to reading 2/4 then Dance Tempo *IS* 1/4 = 120 BPM.

If folks are used to reading 4/4 then Dance Tempo *IS* 1/2 = 120 BPM

DougD - Posted - 04/16/2012:  19:11:46

mswlogo - This seems to be a concept that is still puzzling to you. Here's a link to "Ryans' Mammoth Collection," published BTW in your neck of the woods: violinsheetmusic.org/collectio...ction.pdf  Lots of great tunes, but look at the time signatures. Cut time does not have "barred notes" - the main melody notes are eighths. 2/4 does have 16th notes, but they're not really difficult to read. 4/4 time is appropriate for lots of music, but not for reels.

The "size of the note" is not really relative to the tempo either.

Edited by - DougD on 04/16/2012 19:14:23

mswlogo - Posted - 04/16/2012:  21:04:04

To me, 2/2, Cut Time, Common Time, and 4/4 have the same total amount of notes per measure (2 halfs or 4 Quarters worth of time). Now software will handle the "Beat" (Metronome) different with those, but they will all look pretty much the same on paper, except for the time signature.

2/4 is different, which is what you and Woodwiz were reffering to. You only get 2 Quarters per measure. So for a reel, you can double the number of measures to 16 for A part and 16 for B part or half the note values to keep it 8 measures for A 8 Measures for B.

I always think of Reels as typically 32 bars AA-BB, 8 Measures for each "Part" one time through.

Here is over the waterfall in 4/4 followed by Over the waterfall in 2/4. I find the 4/4 easier to read, just easier on the eyes. Cut, Common, 2/2 would look just like the 4/4.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

I have seen some Reels in 2/4, I always convert them to 4/4. Most of the Music books I have, if not all, use 4/4 or Cut or Common for Reels and rarely 2/4. When I see 2/4 I see Polkas.

Ah, I did find one book with Reels in 2/4 by  Dudley Laufman - Barn Dances. And they look just like the Over the water fall in 2/4 Below. Leave it to Dudley to stick with Tradition.

Edited by - mswlogo on 04/16/2012 21:17:48

mswlogo - Posted - 04/16/2012:  21:26:40

By the way doug I never said Cut Time in my earlier post. And for the record Cut Time is not 2/4, it's 2/2.

When I said size of notes are relative to tempo. I meant how long you actually play the note is relative to tempo.

Edited by - mswlogo on 04/16/2012 21:38:11

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/17/2012:  01:18:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

myshkin - Hear hear! If you look at the great 19th century collections, like Ryan's (later Cole's 1000 fiddle tunes) and O'Neill's Music of Ireland, as well as earlier American and Scottish collections, reels are notated (correctly) in cut time or 2/4. I don't know where the idea of notating reels in 4/4 comes from, but no amount of jiggering the definition of a time signature or metronome markings makes it right.

---

The reason 4/4 is used (instead of 2/4) is to reduce all the barred notes.

4/4 with 1/4's and 1/8's is less busy than 2/4 with 1/8's and 1/16's

The size of the notes is relative to the Tempo anyway.

There might be other reasons too.

This probably is where folks are confused.

If folks are used to reading 2/4 then Dance Tempo *IS* 1/4 = 120 BPM.

If folks are used to reading 4/4 then Dance Tempo *IS* 1/2 = 120 BPM

 

---

When you say barring notes together, usually I've seen it as beam, there is no rule that states you have to beam eighth notes (nor sixteenth) together, they can sit separated. 

Beaming notes together is a useful tool though for indicating phrasing, that two or more consecutive notes feel connected to or separated from each other. Using primarily half and quarter notes, it's difficult to express that.

Should note that Alan's transcription of Henry Reed's Ducks example in 4/4, is using 4 beat groups of sixteenth notes per measure, and would be correctly stated as 1/4=120. It is not going rosin, rosin, rosin, rosin.

The intent here is that the metric group feel is twice as long. Hornpipes are often notated this way in 4/4, especially one with the actual syncopated hornpipe feel. It is probably the more accurate idea of simple quadruple.

It points to the other reason you see 4/4 a lot in other music, which is in defining the length of one metric feel (one meter); and with other styles, and songs it makes more sense, and easier to read as 4/4.

mswlogo - Posted - 04/17/2012:  06:30:42

Thanks again Alaska. I appreciate the correction on Beamed vs Barred term.  Looking around on the net, they are sometimes reffered to as barred notes as well.

I've never seen a Reel that was not beamed (it groups 2's or 4's).

Since this thread is about beats and we are now talking about beamed notes it should be worth mentioning they are related.

One thing I have also always done when importing a Reel in 4/4 is set the Beaming to 2 groups of 4 1/8-notes. First group is one Beat and the 2nd Group is the next Beat.

Scroll down to Question #4 Here

ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/theory.html

mad baloney - Posted - 04/18/2012:  19:39:11

Reels (at least Irish, Scots, French & every other kind I've heard) have 4 beats per measure played wth a 1and2and 3and 4and feel. even though they are usually written with two sets of 4 beamed eighth notes or less commonly 16ths.

Again, it's best to throw all the sheetmusic on the shelf & use your ears to learn fiddle music - there's too much nuance to put into the 'dots' & when it's all there it makes it a bear to read.

mswlogo - Posted - 04/18/2012:  22:50:00

You can think of it that way. But the 1 and 3 are the strong beats and is what most people, tap their foot to, set metronome by and refer to when they say BPM. I think of 2 & 4 as the back beat. You can accent 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 but you wouldn't accent all 4.

Not being able to read music I find to be a handicap. It's a great communication tool. Great learning tool to help understand chords, structure etc. And with software I can create my own backijg instruments to play along with. And learn a lot in the process.

Not being able learn and play by ear is a handicap too. Nothing wrong with wanting both.

mad baloney - Posted - 04/19/2012:  14:33:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by mswlogo



You can think of it that way. But the 1 and 3 are the strong beats and is what most people, tap their foot to, set metronome by and refer to when they say BPM. I think of 2 & 4 as the back beat. You can accent 1 & 3 or 2 & 4 but you wouldn't accent all 4.

---

I don't mean to seem like a troll but you just don't have it right...

I accent all four & when I've heard people that don't - the results ain't very pretty.

BTW I can read music quite well been to school for theory & composition - I don't mean to offend but I kinda know what I'm talking about on this one.

Edited by - mad baloney on 04/19/2012 14:36:03

Fidleir - Posted - 04/19/2012:  14:41:32

Mad Baloney - exactly so.  All four.  It's what my teacher has beat into my head and it finally took.  Irish reels I am speaking of - played in the traditional Irish style.  Can't speak to anything else since Irish is all I know.  Very straight forward - boom - boom - boom - boom to quote my teacher. He knows this stuff, too.  I have a tendency to turn reels into swung hornpipes!

mswlogo - Posted - 04/19/2012:  22:06:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

This is why you often see fiddle tunes represented in 2/4, 2/2 or cut time. That is rather than a measure being 1&2&3&4&; it's 1e&a2e&a. They are both the same thing, just use different mnemomics. With the latter the 1 and the 2 are the identified "beat" and would be marked in your 120 range. Contra dancers (and callers) like that identification as that also indicates the "beat" one places their feet to. They are not technically moving at 240.

The top number doesn't actually mean how many "beats" in a measure, as such the bottom doesn't reflect what unit gets the beat. You can have it written in 4/4. It means 4 quarter notes in a measure. Often for fiddle music you are identifying the "beat" however with just the 1 and the 3, so half note gets the beat. However, the default for much of the software is 1/4 note gets the beat, (even though there is no such actual rule). If possible you would change that notation to just state 1/2 gets the beat (1/2 note symbol=120)

Another way to think about it is there are many different levels of beats (they are binary in nature). The binary levels doesn't change based on how you assign numbers.

Tick-a-tock-a-Tack-a-tock-a-Tuck-a-tock-Tack-a-tock-a-Toke-a-tock-a-Tack-a-tock-a-Tuck-a-tock-Tack-a-tock-a- is a pretty common representation of one time through one part. Binary, the beats starting with Tick-a,  come as 2x2x2x2x2. "Beat" in bpm is assigned to one level. Notating it, writing it out in measures, and assigning quarter/eighth is a separate function. Above could be written as 8 measures of 4; 4 measures of 8, 2 measures of 16; represented by 1/8 notes, 1/16, or possibly 1/32, even 1/4 (not usually practical). None of that would change the beat levels.

---

I don't think I could explain it better than Alaska's first post in this thread so I quoted it again. And it agrees 100% with what I'm being taught.

His last paragraph explains it. There are different levels of beats.

The biggest beat is on quarters 1 & 3 in 4/4. That's the groove of the music. That's what people jog to, dance to, stomp their foot to. It's what you set your metronome to.

If you have say, a measure of 8 1/8 notes (very common in a reel written in 4/4), you might think that the first 1/8 note of each pair is a downbow and therefore a "beat".

It's a lower level (less significant beat). And if you accent those all the same it won't have a strong dance beat.

If it's just boom boom boom boom. You'd stomp your foot at 240 BPM or set metronome at 240. To get to dance tempo. That beat is there but there is more course beat there.

It's BOOM boom BOOM boom.

That's what my teacher has been beating into my head.

What do you think someone means by "4 Potatoes" (2 measures of 2 Beats) to set the tempo (the BEAT).

books.google.com/books?id=7HUf...p;f=false

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/22/2012:  16:29:42

All of those reels follow the same metric structure. The organization of accents. Here's a way to visualize METRIC accents and structure.

Simple Duple (2/8, 2/4, 2/2) and Simple Quadruple (4/8, 4/4, 4/2) - 2 measures shown

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ... = A. Indicates how long measure is, where ONE is, the start of the metric group

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ... = B. In Simple Duple (2/x) counts 1 2, in Simple Quadruple (4/x) counts 1 3

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ... = C. In SD 2/x count [1&] [2&], in SQ 4/x count [1 2] [3 4]

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ... = D. SD 2/x [1e&e] [2e&e] in SQ 4/x count [1&2&] [3&4&]

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ... = E. Further subdivision if applicable (in SQ 4/x [(1e&e)(2e&e)] [(3e&e)(4e&e)]

It goes from strongest to weakest, that Metric accent is there in reels. Realize that there are 4 different basic types of accent; 

Dynamic - created by performer(s) making one stand out from adjacent others, generally by loudness.

Melodic - created by pitch leaps, and harmonic (consonance/dissonance) structure.

Agogic - created by contrasting longer and shorter note durations, for example long short short.

Metric - It is perceptual, and actually silent and imaginary. We don't hear metric accents, but rather think or feel them.

The metric accent signifies organization of different levels into groups and division. The beaming (and use of ties and rests) reinforce the metric grouping, beaming 4 eighth notes shows the meter in 2 groups. So reels in 4/4 (as all simple quadruple) follow a metric accent on the START(1)(strong) and HALF(3)(not as strong); as well they almost always have (or perhaps due to) a melodic accent in sync with that. The dynamic accent does not have to conform with the metric accent. In other words, the meter does not specifically tell the performer how much dynamic accent. If you play in a way that level C is all even and only contrasts with level D (strong-weak-strong-weak-strong-weak-strong-weak...as a continuum) the perception of metric level B and A are generally still there; reels don't go from A to C skipping B. 

As far as this relates to bpm - the "beat" is usually assigned to the most salient level, and tempo can have a certain affect on that (generally the one that occurs between 80 and 160 for reels and jigs).

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 04/22/2012 16:37:59

mike jarboe - Posted - 05/23/2012:  06:32:15

Are we talking about Henry Reed's Ducks on the Pond? (I don't own Portland, or any other books) If so, how much of this discussion would Reed understand or care about? Whatever works for everyone is of course always cool, but I can't imagine approaching a simple, beautful tune as if it were trigonometry. I guess it's my own right-brained fault for stumbling into the theory forum. :)