OldTimeFreak - Posted - 10/14/2011:  08:23:59

I've had several fiddlers tell me to learn every tune and not play in cross tunings. I play old time fiddle. What is the advantage to this?

M-D - Posted - 10/14/2011:  08:44:33

Mostly it has to do with the way the fiddle sounds, which you'll not reproduce out of standard tuning. Cross-tuning gives the tunes character. But, very often it is that the tunes are easier to play out of a cross-tuning. That is not always true, though.

cornfed - Posted - 10/14/2011:  08:53:09

I personally do not crosstune...largely because very few people I knew when I started to play fiddle did. However, the  dominant old time styles in this country, mostly from the southeast, use crosstuning to achieve a distinct full bodied sound, using adjacent strings as drones within a chord, and often just the sympathetic vibration of the retuned string ads to the particular flavor. It really depends on what you define as "oldtime". If your definition includes these specific traditions, or more narrowly excludes all others, then you probably owe it to yourself to learn to use crosstunings. The crosstunings are not dangerous to "healthy" fiddles. If you begin to use them, you will probably want to aquire at least one, and maybe more fiddles to keep in crosstunings to minimize retuning time. depending on the individual instrument, type of strings, pegs, tuners etc, this can be a slow and somewhat painful process until you get adept.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/14/2011:  09:02:14

I started out crosstunng...now I don't. For one thing, it feel strenuous on the fiddle, even though people say it's ok. When I did, it seemed the sawmill AEAE felt better from the fiddles point of view as GDGD, to me...of course I could be wrong...I'm no luthier or anything, but tuning that low string up to an a didnt feel right to me. at the present moment I stay in gdae, as Henry Reed did and John Morris does, who sounds very old time to me...and a few other very old timey fiddlers ( cant think of who else now but I have heard of more). This could just be a personal preference thing...I've tried open tunings on guitar before and not happy with those either...or it could be some temporary fiddling state I'm in...but for me, fr now, I'm with the standard tuning old time crowd.

Alan Friend - Posted - 10/14/2011:  09:17:10

I use standard for some tunes and cross tuning for others.  Not only does the fiddle sound better when you have 2 strings vibrating together on the same note, but it is much easier to finger the same phrase in either a low or high octave to give additional character to the tune.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/14/2011:  11:04:55

I play everything in standard tuning.  But, I think open tunings can add a lot to some tunes.  After I have planetary tuners installed on one of my fiddles, I will learn a few "open tuning" numbers that I especially like.  I used to play a half dozen or so tunes using open tunings, but stopped doing it.  I had worked my way through Brad Leftwich 2 instructionals.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/14/2011:  11:41:49

Keep in mind that cross tuning is not new and is not limited to OT music. It is called scordatura and is very common in Baroque era music. Composers such a Biber even had the strings middle two strings crossed for a religious work. Even great violinist Paganini cross tuned in order to throw off his competitors. Even classical composers have pieces in which the strings cross tune for a movement.



The argument that the cross tuning places additional stress on the instrument has some validity. However, there have been many, many threads and comments on this forum, some from outstanding builders and repair people,a indicating that this does not damage the instrument. I don't think that there is any consensus on this issue. So, if you feel it stresses your instrument, don't cross tune.



Personally, I have an instrument that keep in cross tune - most of the time in AEae - and it has been in this tuning for nearly 20 years. I have seen no apparent damage.



So, why cross tune in the first place?

1. You can take advantage of the resonance and sympathetic vibrations of the other strings. This provides a fuller sound and, in some cases, the other strings can be used as drones which also compliment the sound.

2. Many tunes lay out quite nicely in cross tuning. Also, some tunes can be played an octave lower with the same fingering, thus making a variation that is easy to play.

3. Cross tuning is historical. It has always been around. For those of us who are deeply into OT music and preserving this tradition, we feel it is vital. Additionally, nearly every old timer, including Eck Robertson, Tommy Jarrell and scores of others of past generations and from nearly every region, have played tunes in cross tuning. Cross tuning was prevalent in Texas, too. Oh, and cross tuning isn't just limited to OT music. You'll find it in almost all other folk traditions - Scottish, French Canadian, Cajun, Scandinavian, etc.



So, why NOT cross tune?

1. Takes time, especially if you only have one instrument. This the number one excuse to buy another!! .. or install Planetery tuners.

2. Some tunes are in flatted keys: F,Bb,etc. Cross tuning is not that conducive to playing in these closed positions.

3. Some think that those who do not cross tune are lazy.

4. Some feel that it stresses the instrument too much and potentially damages it.

4. Some feel that it is poor technique and that standard Italian tuning is the only valid tuning. Every thing should be played in this tuning. This is a typical "classical" approach."



My advice -- if you are into OT music, cross tune! And don't look back. Have fun!

Edited by - Fiddler on 10/14/2011 11:43:29

echord - Posted - 10/14/2011:  13:33:23

You can get a certain sound from cross-tuning that you just can't get in standard, for the reasons stated above. A good example is "Black Mountain Rag" which, though I've heard it played in standard tuning, just isn't the same tune as when played in AEAC# (though other tunings, such as GDGD al la Lester McCumbers, and GDGB also work pretty well), or "Midnight On The Water," Bonaparte's Retreat" in DDAD, etc. Plus, as others have mentioned, it can make some tunes a lot easier.

I''ve been working on an old Missouri tune called "Rattlesnake" in AEAE and/or GDGD, which just couldn't be played at all in standard tuning.

As for harming the instrument, I don't believe it. The tension differences are pretty minor and the fiddle is a strong instrument. But if that's your fear, get a cheapie to use for cross-tuning. Personally, I hardly play in standard anymore (though I don't claim that as any recommendation -- I'm certainly not a polished fiddler, by any means).

ironworker - Posted - 10/14/2011:  15:03:45

kirk and peter have put fine,and final points on this.

don't be afraid to cross-tune.
don't be afraid to tune standard.

it's called "playing" for a reason.

(btw, peter, i love that MO. tune "Rattlesnake" - we're playing a fair number of Missouri tunes in VA these days)

Shawn Craver - Posted - 10/14/2011:  15:27:46

"Learn every tune"... now that's some solid advice.

Frosty - Posted - 10/14/2011:  16:11:37

quote:

---

I've had several fiddlers tell me to learn every tune and not play in cross tunings. I play old time fiddle. What is the advantage to this?

---

I can't see that there is any musical advantage to not cross tuning.  Speaking for myself, what draws me to learning a tune is most often the way I heard

it brought to life by some fiddler... or some recording of a fiddler.  So, yes, while you could quite possibly find all of the melody notes of

<insert-cross-tuned-tune-name-here> in GDAE tuning, you could not get all of the personality of the tune without the "proper" tuning.  I'm thinking of

unisons, drones, etc.. some of the things that make fiddle music so appealing!

In a pinch, or when I am lazy and find my fiddle in AEAE, I will play Drunken Hiccups.  But it sounds just that much better to me in AEAC# - that unison 

C# is part of what makes that tune!

My $.02

OTJunky - Posted - 10/14/2011:  16:15:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddler

The argument that the cross tuning places additional stress on the instrument has some validity. However, there have been many, many threads and comments on this forum, some from outstanding builders and repair people,a indicating that this does not damage the instrument. I don't think that there is any consensus on this issue. So, if you feel it stresses your instrument, don't cross tune.



 

---

I have to agree that there's no consensus on it - whether or not cross tuning can damage your instrument.

But I'll never understand why there's a lack of consensus about it.  By now we have a historical record covering nearly 150 years of U. S. old time fiddlers who cross tuned regularly or played exclusively in one or more tunings other than GDAE - and I've yet to find a single reference in that record to anybody's fiddle being somehow damaged by cross-tuning.

---OTJ

bj - Posted - 10/14/2011:  17:23:29

I've heard that a couple fiddle necks went cattywampus in very hot weather when first tuned up to AEAE, according to Betty Druckenmiller, who was teaching the class at Augusta and has never tuned to AEAE since. My opinion is that those necks were probably gonna need resetting anyway, but what do I know?

Anyway, most in this area do crosstune, but west of here people seldom do. I suggest you might get thee to the local jams before making any decisions. If you decide to crosstune and find out the local jam doesn't, you're gonna be hauling around a lotta fiddles.

I'm glad most people in this area crosstune. It sounds WAY cool!

ajisai - Posted - 10/14/2011:  19:10:04

Just jump in and try cross-tuning sometime. I thought it would be hard to adapt, but I haven't found it to be an issue at all and like bj says, it sounds "WAY cool." I love the way a fiddle rings when it's in GDGA or AEAE and it's great fun to play some tunes with a G tuned down to D.

I keep my good fiddle in standard tuning and once I was hooked I bought a second (inexpensive but well-set-up-thanks-to-woodwiz) fiddle to keep in GDGD. It makes it easy to go back and forth and it's kinder to the bridge on my good fiddle than retuning all the time.

I live west of bj and she's right -- if we're playing, oh, say Illinois tunes at a jam, they work great in standard tuning (maybe with the G raised to an A sometimes?) -- but a lot of people out here play the the kind of music that begs to be cross-tuned, too.

bsed - Posted - 10/14/2011:  21:12:25

Look at it this way. Cross tuning isn't a necessary skill, but it gives you more tools to use as a fiddler. It makes the sound you produce more diverse. You have more command over your fiddle. And going from standard tuning to any cross tuning becomes easier the more you do it. (I can get to AEAE in less than a minute now.)

It also enhances your enjoyment. And your sense of accomplishment.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/14/2011:  22:10:49

I used to cross tune a lot, now I seldom do. The learning to play everything in GDAE works up to a POINT.
It's good for a lot of the common war horse jam tunes.

My opinion is that if you tune a fiddle UP to AEAE, it should have light gauge strings on the low AE.
If you tune down to GDGD, you're going to have better performance if you put a heavier gauge string on the high strings.
Really, if you play in one tuning a lot, it makes sense to have a fiddle dedicated for it. Lots of fiddlers have a beater fiddle lying around,
and cross tuning is a great way to both put that fiddle to use and to not put the strain on your main fiddle or it's strings.

Not all strings handle retuning and tuning higher than standard well... one string manufacturer (Super Sensitive) puts a warning on the individual string package of at least one of their sets that you should NOT tune the string higher than the pitch it's labeled for.

I try to play everything in GDAE, but some tunes are just made for AEAE or GDGD. Camp Chase, Fine Times at Our House, stuff like that.
Those kind of tunes would be silly to try and play with GDAE.

Another thing that works well if you are playing alone, and have a chromatic tuner:
Tune to AbEbAbEb. You tune the low strings up a half step and the high strings down a half step, so the low strings aren't really tight feeling like in AEAE and the high strings aren't sloppy feeling like in GDGD. And I'm guessing that it's going to put about the same tension on the fiddle as GDAE does.

In the old days, since nobody tuned to standard pitches, I expect they were as likely to end up close to AbEbAbEb as anywhere else.
And actually, it's not impossible for a banjo player or guitar player to get to Ab- just capo on the first fret and play in G.
Not so good if your playing with mandolinists- they'd hate you!!!
Harmonica players would be okay with it if they had an Ab harp!!! (or Gb for Dorian mode)

One sense I have is that there are two kinds of A modal tunes. Some have long sections where they play notes off of a G double stop, and those tunes beg for a long strong G chord change in the backup. To my mind such tunes should be played in GDAE, since it highlights that G change.
But if a tune only dips down to the G notes for a second or two, then it doesn't suggest a G change, and if there's a G note that doesn't suggest a G change that strongly, then the tune is a good candidate for cross tuning.

One reason I think I'm not playing the cross tuning tunes so much is that my wife seems to already barely tolerate A modal tunes, and the cross tuning only makes them sound spookier. She's easily frightened, and more so since she's been sick.

rcc - Posted - 10/14/2011:  23:03:55

Really, whether you cross tune or not depends on the repetoire you want to play. There's a lot of OT repetoire out there that is better played out of standard tuning. And there's a lot of repetoire out there that really needs cross-tuning because the tune evolved that way. Yes, you can play a lot of those tunes in standard tuning but they don't sound the same. You miss too many drones and chords. Sometimes the bowing has to change and not in a good way. And then there's the sympathetic vibrations thjat you get cross-tuned that you don't get in standard.

Round Peak repetoire is intensely cross-tuned (unless you're playing Benton Flippen tunes ... but his versions tend to wander far from the standard RP versions). A reasonable chunk of Kentucky tunes are cross-tuned as well.

I like to play Round Peak so my fiddle spends most of its time in ADAE or AEAE. Maybe 10% of its time in standard tuning. If that. I confess I love cross-tuning. But again, I play tunes and specific versions of tunes that are impossible to play well (e.g. don't sound good) unless you're cross-tuned.

I've always used medium gauge strings although I've always used synthetic strings and those tend to have lower tension than steel strings. Lots of people I know cross-tune using Helicore Heavy's. It really depends on your fiddle. A well-made newish fiddle should hold up just fine.

And much as I like GDGD for some tunes, GDGD really does sound different from AEAE.

RGH - Posted - 10/14/2011:  23:30:52

Love tuning up a fiddle to cross A or G, Black Mountain, GDad, DDad, High Bass, standard, whatever...the tuning adds so much to particular tunes and it's not difficult to do.  Cross or alternate tunings??  I highly recommend them for OT fiddling, after all, that's why a fiddle has tuners right...?!?

Edited by - RGH on 10/14/2011 23:33:27

Frosty - Posted - 10/15/2011:  06:11:45

quote:

---

My opinion is that if you tune a fiddle UP to AEAE, it should have light gauge strings on the low AE.

 

---

That's a good suggestion, and I'd forgot about that.  I use Prim steel strings and as Pogo suggests "soft" tension for the

two low strings, "middle" for the two high strings.  The performance of that mixed set is fine, IMO, in GDAE as well.  Wish

I could buy a set packaged that way, but for now it's individual strings.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 10/15/2011:  06:25:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by rcc

And much as I like GDGD for some tunes, GDGD really does sound different from AEAE.

---

I love to play A tunes in GDGD. It's a little confusing at first for folks who are new to it. But, it's got a nice lower sound and it's ​NOT SOOOOO SHRILLLLLLL!!!!!!!!​ ​   as AEAE.   I like to say.   :-)

OTJunky - Posted - 10/15/2011:  06:30:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frosty

quote:

---

My opinion is that if you tune a fiddle UP to AEAE, it should have light gauge strings on the low AE.

 

---

That's a good suggestion, and I'd forgot about that.  I use Prim steel strings and as Pogo suggests "soft" tension for the

two low strings, "middle" for the two high strings.  The performance of that mixed set is fine, IMO, in GDAE as well.  Wish

I could buy a set packaged that way, but for now it's individual strings.

---

 I just use a standard set of medium Helicores and cross-tune them without encountering any problems so far.  And I know a lot of fiddlers that do that with a standard set of medium gauge Prims.

Again, there's nothing in the historical record (from 1920 to now) that suggests any old time fiddlers we know about used lighter gauge strings for the coarse pair - or that they damaged their fiddles by cross-tuning with a standard string set.

--OTJ

carlb - Posted - 10/15/2011:  07:28:22

I like cross tuning (i.e. tuning in octaves AEAE or GDGD or AbEbAbEb). I also like other special tuning that people seem to have mostly given up like DDAD for tunes like Midnight on Water, Coleman's March, Bonaparte's Retreat, Dry and Dusty and Washington's March. I also love GDAD for those special tunes.

Fiddler - Posted - 10/15/2011:  07:32:51

I frequently play with hammered dulcimer and mtn dulcimer folks whose instruments are not able to easily play in A. So, moving down to G is great. Retuning to GDgd solves many problems. And, yes, the sound is mellower, especially for small rooms. However, AEae sure cuts through the haze, though.

Carter - Posted - 10/16/2011:  02:05:51

Admittedly, I don't understand it either. Same thing as OTJunky... I typically use medium helicores. I retune both of my fiddles constantly... multiple times within an hour potentially, every day I play, basically since I started playing fiddle. I've never had any issues.

Edited by - Carter on 10/16/2011 02:10:13

Fiddler - Posted - 10/16/2011:  06:10:34

By the way, I have used Prim Mediums for over 30 years years and have been using Prim Orchestra (Heavy) gauge for the past 5 years. I have seen no issues with stress in my instruments and no problems with frequent retuning during jam sessions or performances.

I will admit, though, that istruments that are mistreated, suscepted to harsh environments or are poorly repaired or manufactured (especially any glue joints at stress points) may be damaged. I've seen fiddles with synthetic strings, which are supposedly low strees, come apart on a warm, humid day! But, if that should happen, what a better excuse to get a good repair!

I've also seen plethoras of fiddles with steel strings played for hours in AEae cross tuning on some of the hottest and humidist days here in Texas and Arkansas and sometimes in direct sun without any signs of a problem! The only incident that I have ever had related to temperature was where the top of my fiddle got some direct sun and expanded at a different rate than the bottom and the sound post fell over! The good news, I was able to get it quickly reset at a nearby shop, and it sounded better than betore!!

bj - Posted - 10/16/2011:  06:20:32

Different gauge strings? Having a dedicated crosstuner separate from your main fiddle? Michael, it's my belief that you have a huge tendency to WAY overthink things. I've been to events where there were hundreds of crosstuned fiddles being retuned multiple times and NO ONE had a problem with whatever strings or whatever fiddle they were using, and I never heard a single person suggest mixing up the gauges!

Diane G - Posted - 10/16/2011:  13:58:27

OTJ...I'm not so sure the 1920's or a bit later had different gauges of strings? I know the string industry really came into its own in the 1970's or so. Diane

OTJunky - Posted - 10/16/2011:  14:53:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Diane G

OTJ...I'm not so sure the 1920's or a bit later had different gauges of strings? I know the string industry really came into its own in the 1970's or so. Diane

---

Steel violin strings came into use shortly after the turn of the last century and steel strings were widely used after the first World War.

From:  ehow.com/about_5379592_history...ings.html



"Black Diamond Strings began manufacturing violin strings in 1890. Its hand-made strings became a popular choice, particularly among bluegrass musicians all throughout the 20th century."

Don't know about the string gauges back then.  Do you know of any reason string tension would've been bumped up over the years?

Anyhow, if you're worried about "modern" vs. "older" gauges, just consider the history from 1970 until now.  That's 41 years and covers most of the old time fiddling "revival".  Still can't find any mention of fiddlers breaking their fiddles by cross-tuning and the revivalists did plenty of cross-tuning.

--OTJ

Diane G - Posted - 10/16/2011:  18:54:45

Hi. If you look at old fiddlers and their fiddles you see alot of strings tied to the tailpiece! No busted up fiddles from cross-tuning...just cross-eyed old timers having to retie the strings either at the peg holes or down at the tailpiece!!! Bob and I buy alot of old fiddlers...some that haven't been played on for probably 30-40 years and we have to untie the old gut or steel strings (sometimes we have to cut them off at the pegs) in order to get the pegs out of the pegbox. Then WE become the crossed-eyed restorers...LOL!!!
Bob (my husband, the luthier in the family) thinks that string gauges came into being from gut strings that were also gauged for a player wanting different tensions and as the wound strings (overwindings) and perlon and rope core strings advanced you probably had demand for different gauges in the new strings that were being developed. Norman Pickering is one of the "modern men" to help develop strings would be a good bet...he'd be the one to look up. There is a book on Ebay about him and the bowed string that he helped to develop. Happy hunting OTJ....stay tuned.
I use "heavy" perlon strings on a wonderful 7/8's, 1871 American made violin by A.W. White to give the shorter string length more power and hence voice.
Diane.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/16/2011:  23:03:08

Each key sets up a relationship of fingering, which fingers are used for which interval of the scale,  and where the scale changes strings. This plays a role in each has different advantages on slurs, bow crossings, double stops, unisons, drones, bow rockings, ornaments, ease of left hand fingering. The ease itself has an effect on overall sound quality, especially fluidity and flow. Each fingering relationship has natural strength and weakness. Fiddling is about expoiting the strengths, minimizing the weakness; the reason many tunes are in a specific key. In cross tuning, it's the same principle of exploiting the natural strength of the string relationships.



If the playing of a tune doesn't utilize much of what cross tuning provides, it doesn't much make a difference.

As far as the instrument. If it's a decent fiddle it should have no problem. Never seen a fiddle top crack, or neck joint pop, in the process of tuning up, unless it already had problems. The tuning just brought the problem to light quicker. Folks break strings. Very long term effects however might be a different story. Certainly possible the added psi on the top will change the arch of the top over time. As well, it's possible that the added psi over time will affect the neck. The other effect for some fiddles is in the pegs and peg holes, more use comes more wear; but this is compounded by an already poor fit, and improper technique in tuning the pegs.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 10/19/2011:  06:41:39

For those who don't get why we change our tunings, try this experiment. Raise your G string up one tone to an A. It'll be a low A, ie. not the same as your regular A string. I usually tell folks to loosen the G string slightly before tuning it up. This is just a tad gentler on the string. Then, truth be told, that will lean the neck ever so slightly to that side, so you'll need to also check the tunings of all strings. I generally make 2 passes across all of the strings and then adjust after the first couple of tunes to get it juuuusssssst right.

If you don't have fine tuners on your fiddle, ignore this post and go to the next topic.

OK, all set? Now play some of your favorite D tunes, like Soldiers Joy, Angeline The Baker, Jay Bird, Liberty, or whatever tune where the melody is mostly on the top strings. I guarantee you, you will sound better. And, those tunes that I listed don't use that low A string at all, so there's not much of a learning curve as to where the fingers are supposed to go. Better sound, minimal effort. All you have to do is learn to tune quickly and accurately. And, I'll admit, that is a bit of a hurdle for beginners. It will get easier, but ferpetesake, stop whining "Do I have to re-tune????"   :-)  Just kidding. The whining is part of the evolution.

Good luck and have fun! And, if you're coming to Fiddle Hell in November, introduce yourself and I can show you in person.

Terri

fiddlejammer.com