fiddlerjoe - Posted - 03/31/2011:  14:17:59

I'm an intermediate level fiddler. The problem is that I sing lead or harmony on many of my band's tunes and find it really difficult to sing while playing, i.e, trying to hold my fiddle correctly and still get some voice projection. In most cases, I end up just dropping the fiddle while singing and playing fills and chords on other folks' breaks or taking a break myself. Is this the standard approach or should I be able to do both?

Thanks for the feedback!

Joe

Sue B. - Posted - 03/31/2011:  14:27:09

If you work at it, eventually you could be able to do both. You may need to find a way to hold the fiddle w/o having it too close to your face. For some great examples of fiddlers singing along w/themselves (or singers accompanying themselves on fiddle), look to Bruce Molsky or his youthful protege Tatiana Hargreaves. It feels a lot like juggling while riding a bike at first... Sue

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 03/31/2011:  14:31:30

Joe... It ain't easy or everybody would do it. Me too it is constantly a trial...You will have to become adept at raising your chin but keeping the fiddle in place. Easier said than done. The straighter you stand while fiddling the easier it will be to go back and forth between singing and playing...... good posture will help I swear . . . . . . . Watch Union Station w/ Allison Krause....... she does really well at this.... but everybodies method suits themself..... Good Luck to us both.....R /

bj - Posted - 03/31/2011:  14:39:50

It's possible. How do I know? I do it, but not nearly as well as Rhiannon does! I can only play very simply while singing, and can only do it when I don't think about it.

VIDEO: Rhiannon Giddens performing Real Old Mountain Dew, traditional Publci Domain (click to view)

fiddlerjoe - Posted - 03/31/2011:  14:45:29

Thanks for the reference Sue, I'll look them up. Richard, I agree completely that posture is huge.

I've watched Allison K. do it effortlessly, but I'm already consigned to the reality that there are few things that Allison does that I'll EVER be able to do. Except for cursing. :)

Swing - Posted - 03/31/2011:  15:22:33

I once watched a bluegrass fiddler sing one harmony and play another at the same time. I decided that multitasking was just too much for me...

Play Happy

richdissmore - Posted - 03/31/2011:  17:50:32

will i play and sing at the same time i,v done this for years never tryed to play the fiddle and sing at the same time yet i have played bass and guitar and sang that well be interresting to try

WoodshopFiddler - Posted - 03/31/2011:  19:32:29

I've concluded that it just can't be done. Not by me, at least.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/31/2011:  22:57:10

Well, it can be done, but you'll probably have to drop down to a simpler level.

It's not too hard to sing while chopping or shuffling on low double stops.
It's also not too hard to sing with the melody, including a melody with drones.
But I'd forget about trying to do any complex harmonies or fills along with your singing for now.

In effect you have a choice between a simple Bluegrass approach (chopping on double stops)
or two Old Time approaches (singing with the melody or singing with shuffled low double stops (basically using the old fiddle "seconding"
techniques to accompany your voice instead of another fiddle.
Depending on the bluegrass band or jam, you might be able to get away with using those Old Time techniques, or perhaps not,
if they're all about sounding just like the Bluegrass Boys or the Stanley Bros.

Theoretically, it SHOULD be possible to
1. Record yourself singing the song in the key you're gonna do it in.
2. Play along with that recording and come up with a harmony
3. Memorize that harmony part.
4. Sing along with the memorized harmony part.

But I haven't been able to make myself do it yet!!!

srselby - Posted - 04/01/2011:  00:06:01

This is the way I learned with the banjo. Works with fiddle: play a phrase and just sing out the name of the chord behind it. Just sing a monotone on the chord root. So your song is going: ' G ma-jor, G ma-jor, C ma-jor, D-seventh, G ma-jor' or whatever. Get rid of the baggage of remembering words or details of the melody until you can do that, then you will quickly be able to sing along or against your fiddle tune.

jamieholmes - Posted - 04/01/2011:  00:24:22

I learned by using GDGD tuning and and making simple double stops very slowl. Here is a good tune to learn. youtube.com/watch?v=6DiHM8c37sk
The song melody is the same as played on your fiddle.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/01/2011:  02:12:06

Start with a slow nice vocal piece (something like Amazing Grace) and just do a straight bass fiddle drone to your voice. If you can do low chords that works too. The simpler the chord progression the better for starting. Another good one is the Am Shady Grove (done slow like Amazing Grace). It's just A note and G note - then a AE and GD.

Then you might work into moving the bow in a simple rhythm with the voice; I think a waltz rhythm tune is a bit easier. For 2/4 or 4/4, start with just matching the boom chuck; I tend to do more chuck (mando beat).

Then for actual matching the melody - Try more of a low version and make it really simple. Again starting with a slow simple melody like Amazing Grace.

wheelhoss - Posted - 04/01/2011:  05:17:17

Sing or play the fiddle. Let Allison do her thing.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/01/2011:  05:47:05

Wow that Rhiannon sure does some good sounding stuff... Her style is unique and very cool sounding.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 04/01/2011:  05:50:33

I really like the dying Californian too... I don't know anything about singing while playing, but these look like great examles.

coelhoe - Posted - 04/01/2011:  06:00:55

I'd love to see some good research on the cognitive issues involved when playing and singing at the same time. Rhythmic playing on guitar, bass, mandolin and similar instruments seems to promote better singing. But lead playing is a different story depending on the instrument. You see very few Scruggs style banjo players who play and sing at the same time (including Mr. Scruggs himself). Partially this is because in the band format the emphasis is on the song with instrumental interludes. However, it is also this way because it is really hard to play this style and sing (or even talk) at the same time. When I teach BG banjo I tell the students to practice on the basics until they can play the exercises and carry on a real conversation at the same time. Oddly, this is not true for OT style banjo playing which seems to have cognitive analogs to guitar. Also odd is that finger style guitar and bluegrass banjo are not similar in terms of brain function, though they would seem alike: thumb and two fingers. You can easily sing with the former but it is very difficult with the latter

Where fiddle fits into all this, I can't say. I've never tried to do both at the same time, and the professionals I admire do one or the other.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/01/2011:  06:19:19

In my days in a rock band, I found it really difficult to sing while playing bass, it was the structure of the bass line, and it wasn't just simple rocking back and fourth. Like the basic walking 12bar riff - E/G#//B/C#/D/C#/B/G# and variations, especially if syncopated, just seemed to be so different phrasing than the vocal line.
But with OT and Cajun fiddle I don't have near the problem, I am either playing chords to a pretty straight rhythm, or playing exactly what I am singing.
Now here is a curious thing - I sometimes play fiddle and harmonica at the same time. If I am playing the exact same thing it is not much of a problem; I can play the melody on the harp while seconding on the fiddle with little problem; but I find it really difficult to play the melody on the fiddle and second with the harmonica. All I need to do to play chords on the harp is blow(or draw) 3 holes, the chord is right there, just breathe in a rhythmic way. But my fiddling is stiff, bland and difficult when I do this. Not so much the notes, intonation or overall rhythm is bad, but the expression and articulation. Why should it be so much more difficult?

DougD - Posted - 04/01/2011:  06:54:15

Lots of fiddlers just hold the instrument or strum simple chords while they sing. Back in my playing day it was quite a novelty that Walt could sing and play at the same time, and people often commented on it. Here's a short video lesson about it by someone who does it well: youtube.com/watch?v=DaNuxmM8ras

I think most people either accompany a slow song with droning chordal accompaniment (or the melody) on the fiddle, or holler out some verses to fiddle tunes. Its harder to sing a more complicated song effectively to your own accompaniment, but it can be done with practice.

Fiddler - Posted - 04/01/2011:  09:59:30

Somewhere in my past I read an article about the difficulty of simultaneously playing an instrument and singing. The fiddle was mentioned as being particularly difficult. As I recall the article pointed out that one side of the brain controls the muscle actions while the other controls the language funtions. For a "new" muscle action, the language functions are not a high priority. However, this problem can be overcome with practice and retraining your brain.

I've known fiddlers who were able to call square dances and contra dances while playing. John McCutcheon was just one whom I have encountered who could do this. I've also known fiddlers who could carry on conversations while playing.

Me, when I'm playing and open my mouth to say something or to sing, all that happens most of the time is a big gaping, silent black hole. "So, how's my ulvula?" "Do you like my dental work?"

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 04/01/2011:  10:21:27

I tried this for years and couldn't do it. Then I saw Tim obrian and, well i might not be explaining it very well but I got this feeling that he wasn't so much playing and singing at the same time but rather he started playing the fiddle and once that was going along ok then he put the fiddle on auto pilot and started singing. Like getting a ball rolling down the hill. Once it's rolling you might not have to work so hard to keep it going. So then you can focus on the next ball and get that on started too. But you have to let go thinking to much about the first ball. Clear as mud? Well I went home that night after the obrian concert and I played and sang "the blackest crow" all the way through. Never even got going on it before. I would crash as soon as I started singing.

Start playing
Get a groove
Stop thinking about the fiddle but keep it going
Start singing.
Let gravity take both balls down the hill

Am I making any sense?

AZJohnB - Posted - 04/01/2011:  10:31:20

Bruce Molsky has an instructional DVD on this subject. Bruce does it well as did John Hartford.

slimman53 - Posted - 04/01/2011:  11:13:45

quote:

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Originally posted by jamieholmes

I learned by using GDGD tuning and and making simple double stops very slowl. Here is a good tune to learn. youtube.com/watch?v=6DiHM8c37sk
The song melody is the same as played on your fiddle.

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fiddlerjoe - Posted - 04/01/2011:  12:36:15

bj, funny that you posted that link for Rhiannon. She's from Greensboro where I live and my daughter sang in the same choir as her for a short while. I have seen the Chocolate Drops numerous times. She sang and played in a Christmas production here called 'Beautiful Star' that had killer music.

Coelho, I agree that there is a cognitive difficulty changes with different instruments.

My main problem though is getting enough projection to sing over a banjo (or TWO banjos as we often have in the group) with my jaw clamped down on the fiddle. It's hard enough hitting the high notes on Blue Moon of Kentucky and stayin' in my shoes much less playing the fiddle. I would guess that it might be easier with amplification, but we rarely do that.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/01/2011:  13:21:39

Brad Leftwich has taught this at camps and workshops, check to see when he might be in your neck of the woods. I am not sure, but it's possible he has instructional video for singing and playing.

robinja - Posted - 04/01/2011:  13:36:58

I am just starting to be able to do this on a limited number of tunes/songs. I have found that if I hold my fiddle at chest level, it is possible to sing, whereas if I hold the fiddle under my chin, it is nearly impossible. In informal jam settings, I just bring the fiddle down and rest the upper bout on my knee, and I can usually belt out a verse or two or possibly harmonize with a singer while playing a simple version of the melody.

Most of the time in performances, I just put the fiddle down temporarily if I'm singing lead. However, my band just worked up a tune where I am singing harmony on just part of the verse and the entire chorus, and it didn't sound right for the fiddle to drop out the whole time. I don't normally use a shoulder rest, but I found that with one, I could prop the fiddle pretty securely on my upper rib cage. Luckily, it was a pretty simple song chordally, so during the verse, I just did some rhythmic bowing and during the chorus, I played a simplified version of the melody. I recorded the tune with the just the lead singer, banjo, and guitar, and I practiced at home with my MP3 player over and over. I had to tweak it a little during live practice, but I think it worked pretty well.

I don't know if I'll ever get to the point where I can just do it without a lot of concentration and practice, but it was rewarding to work at it and pull it off. An added bonus was that I was able to look up and be more engaged with the audience with the fiddle in that position, but I still like having it under my chin for hard-core fiddling. I'm not 100% satisfied with the shoulder rest solution - since I don't normally play with one, it's something else to remember, and I have a fear that it will fall off. I'll be hunting around for a better long-term solution.

Good luck!

Judy

P.S. I will add that I just saw Molsky in concert, and he was amazing with this! A true inspiration!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/01/2011:  14:48:52

I mostly play with the fiddle low on my chest; part of the reason, but not the primary, was that I could easier sing and play. That part about it not sounding right with the fiddle dropping out, that was probably the main reason I wanted fiddle and sing together; The group I was playing with just was missing some rhythmic aspect that my fiddle provided, mainly the back beat.

You are the first woman that I've heard that can play at chest level; my female fiddler friends had tried and said there was an obstacle; which I always thought would make a nice shelf to make easier. But I really am not qualified to say.

bsed - Posted - 04/01/2011:  19:10:45

I've found the more you do it the easier it becomes. You should play a very simple unadorned melody or rhythm while you sing, saving the fancy stuff for the breaks.
One thing I often do is I drop the fiddle so that the end piece buts up into my left-side clavicle (just below the neck). This frees up the jaw, and you can aalso turn your head and look at the audience more.

bsed - Posted - 04/01/2011:  19:15:48

The PERFECT song anybody could try to practice playing and singing is Sow 'em On The Mountain by the Carter family.
Its highly melodic (singable), it has few notes because the chorus and verse use the same notes, and it just keeps going and going and going so if you don't get it right away, just keep at it for a few more reps. You will!

(I was surprised not to be able to find a You Tube of this song. But its been recorded a lot.)

Edited by - bsed on 04/01/2011 19:19:25

DougD - Posted - 04/02/2011:  06:59:18

Although that's what the Carter Family called it, its also called Sowing On the Mountain and there are YouTube clips under that title. Here's Woody Guthrie: youtube.com/watch?v=NduD24lbjJ4

And the Coon Creek Girls: youtube.com/watch?v=pn_65_L7jtM That reminds me that Lily May Ledford really started as a fiddle player, but she switched to banjo in the group to take better advantage of her great singing.

robinja - Posted - 04/04/2011:  15:09:14

quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler

You are the first woman that I've heard that can play at chest level; my female fiddler friends had tried and said there was an obstacle; which I always thought would make a nice shelf to make easier. But I really am not qualified to say.

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