mswlogo - Posted - 09/20/2010:  10:35:42

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I've been using Notation Composer notation.com for quite some time (plays MIDI's showing Musical Notation)

Any way it shows Beats Per Minute (BPM) as 1/4 Notes per minute (depending on Time signature it may show 1/8 or 1/2) and you can change it.

By every measure it seems accurate. I compared it to a Metronome and it was dead on.

But what's odd is I've had two teachers say Dance Tempo is 120-128 BPM (or even faster for some tunes)

But there is no way I can play that fast and I'm starting to realize I am quite close to Typical "Dance tempo" on many tunes even though I'm far from 120-128 BPM.

So for example I might play Liberty at 150 1/4 Notes Per Minute. Which I believe means 75 BPM. That's about the Tempo of Brian Wicklunds 2nd CD. Which is probably a little slower than "Dance Tempo" I've seen at local contra dances.

I'm assuming when folks say BPM they mean Down Beats per minute. 4/4 Time has 2 down beats per measure.

So my guess is local Contra Dances (Metro West of Boston) are playing somewhere between 90-110 BPM and nowhere near 120-128 BPM.

The Contra Dances I'm reffering to include Worcester, Berlin, Northboro, Westford, Concord and NEFFA (including the Medley).

Do I have that about right? I'm trying to "Calibrate" my clock here :)

Swing - Posted - 09/20/2010:  11:37:47

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Around my area 120 bpm is the norm, maybe a touch slower. If you go muh faster than that the dancers may have a difficult time makes all the moves across the space thay are dancing in.

It always helps to play with others so thatyou get the feeling of what 120 bpm really is, and it makes it easier to play up to speed.

Play Happy

mswlogo - Posted - 09/20/2010:  12:42:07

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Found this.

biteyourownelbow.com/what.htm

Which says at 120 BPM or more it becomes more of an aerobic workout than a dance. This closer to what I'm finding but still faster than what I think I'm hearing at the dances. I have some dances recorded and will see if I can figure it out.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/20/2010:  14:03:22

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Depends on the dance. 120 seems to be the comfortable center to me. Some work a little better at 105-110. Some up to 132. Squares might even be faster. Slower than 110 is actually harder to dance to, unless it has a really strong syncopated groove. Even then, most beginner dancers have a tough time with too slow. 90 seems deathly slow to contra dance to with a straight rhythm.

IMO it is also harder to play at too slow a tempo AND provide good rhythmic forward flow.

For contra dancing the tempo is indicated by your basic footstep, each step is one beat. This is represented often in the music by the common alternating bass line, of the guitar, piano or bass.

Notation can be written in a few different ways to represent the same thing. Don't get too hung up on the quarter note, tempo might be marked on the half note or the eighth note. Tempo might be marked based on the the same alternating bass line as above, or on the boom-chuck level, which would be marked twice as fast. Bluegrass players often use the latter.

120 aerobic? Set your metronomic device to play at 120, do a 8 steps figure - down the hall is just taking 8 steps in one straight direction; circle/star left is just taking 8 steps to the left in a circle. I think what might make it aerobic for some folks is they are power walking, or moving in a non dance way, rather than dancing, using the rhythm to guide their body movement.

The same thing happens in playing the music, some folks are too focused on matching the metronomic time rather than letting the rhythm guide their movement.

ChickenMan - Posted - 09/20/2010:  14:51:42

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120 bpm - think of the tick toc of a clock which is general tick + toc = 1 second or 120 tick tocs per minute. Not really aerobic speed.

And if I recall correctly, Bob Holt said his dancers (from Missouri) demanded up to 145 bpm, because they also clog while dancing.
I'm partial to 125-128 and the caller I work with seems to like that (she says, "not too slow, now, it's gotta keep 'em moving").
It seems to be regional as to what the proper speed is.

from the above link:
"Suggested tempos are:
Contras: 114-116 bpm; also 112-118 bpm. At tempos higher than 120 bpm, the dance becomes merely an aerobic workout, and the figures can't be done in an enjoyable fashion.
Squares: 120-130 bpm
Waltzes: 132 bpm; also: 115-165, average: 140 bpm
Donna Hébert noted that some callers now want tempos around 128-132, while 120-124 is better for most contras. Slower tempos are more forgiving of beginning contra dancers and also allows the band to "groove more and worry less about which notes to leave out of some fingerbustin' tune." Donna also may speed up a little on the last tune of a medley when the dancers really have the figure and the caller has stopped calling."

I don't know if we do much "contra" dancing in my neck of the woods.

M-D - Posted - 09/20/2010:  15:11:56

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Yes, Ozark square-dancers also jig-dance while going through the call. Tempo ranges from 130 bpm (slow) to 145+ bpm, on the fast end. 140 bpm is about right.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/20/2010:  15:29:37

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My recollection of dancing in Missouri was almost all were older simple southern squares and circles, rather than contras and NE squares. Southern squares allows (if not requires) a faster tempo.

Traditional NE contras were perhaps a bit slower, but more important is they have a different flow/feel. One big difference is the music tends to be phrased with the dance, that is you can easily tell where 4 and 8 beat divisions are. And contra musical phrases need to be exactly in 4/8 beats because the move is 4 or 8 steps. Southern tunes don't do that as much, and tend to be a bit more beat oriented, one phrase flows into the next. In southern squares the moves are not tied to those exact number of steps. You take as many steps as you need, or til the caller tells you at the moment. The dancers are not keeping track of the phrase or part divisions, just the beats.

A modern development is to play driving/flowing southern music at a good clip to basically NE contra formations. That can be challenging for beginners, only part in the tempo, but a big part that it's more difficult to sense for non musicians how long and when to do the next move.

BanjoBrad - Posted - 09/20/2010:  15:32:32

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I'm assuming when folks say BPM they mean Down Beats per minute. 4/4 Time has 2 down beats per measure.

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I've always been told that BPM is by time signature, or if it says 1/4 note = 120, you are playing at 120 quarter notes per minute, or 2 1/4 notes per second. If the time signature says 1/8=120, that's 120 1/8th notes per minute, and so on.

"The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" defines tempos as: Slow = 40-75 bpm, Moderate=70-115 bpm and Fast=110-220 bpm. These are further divided into Italian tempos by names, which I won't break down here.

-B-

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Edited by - BanjoBrad on 09/20/2010 15:33:39

WoodshopFiddler - Posted - 09/20/2010:  15:37:59

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Hop up and down on one foot as fast as you can do it comfortably and sustainably (did I just make up another word?). This rate should be a reasonable estimation of a comfortable dance tempo.

musekatcher - Posted - 09/20/2010:  16:02:25

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You will get different opinions on preferred dance speeds. The fastest dance I attended, was 140-150 bpm, for most of the night. The slowest dance I recall was around 100 bpm. Cloggers and buckdancers will need faster tempos closer to 140 bpm or more. I think of one beat = one step for a country dance.

bj - Posted - 09/20/2010:  16:08:48

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Range in this area seems to be around 120-130 bpm, which isn't all that fast to play, though Carl Baron seems to think it's way too slow . . . I'm not sure I'd like to be a dancer at the dances he plays though.

jeffs - Posted - 09/20/2010:  19:33:27

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Dance tempo is whatever the caller wants. Which is governed (we hope) by the dance and the dancers. And of course we've all been out on the dance floor, right?

DougD - Posted - 09/21/2010:  06:20:57

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mswlogo - I think the problem is your assumptions about what is being measured. The downbeat is the first beat of the measure - 4/4 time has only one downbeat per measure. And I think bpm means just that - beast per minute, not measures or half measures per minute. If you're playing "Liberty" at 150 1/4 notes per minute that's 150 bpm, not 75, which seems a little fast for that tune.
I just listened to my metronome at 120bpm and it seems a little slow to me. I think dances around here tend to be faster, although I think the contra dances often fall into the last category alaskafiddler mentioned.

PS - To further complicate things, at least in the Fiddler's Companion, "Liberty" is written in "cut time," the "C" with the slash through it. This is a fast duple meter, where the half note, not the quarter note gets one beat (two beats per measure). Following this convention, 120 bpm is plenty fast for that tune - 110 might be better. So playing 150 1/4 notes per minute in this case is 75 bpm, since only every other quarter note gets a beat.

A little more about this: If you look in "Ryan's Mammoth Collection" (Or, I imagine, "Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes") some of the reels are written in 2/4, and some in cut time (2/2 really). For the tunes in cut time, the basic unit of the melody is the eighth note, while for the tunes in 2/4 the basic unit is the sixteenth note. Although you might think these 2/4 tunes would be much faster, or twice as fast, they're not - its just a different way of writing them. Both have two beats per measure, as far as the metronome is concerned, but in the 2/4 tunes a quarter note gets one beat, and in the cut time tunes a half note gets one beat. I think this may be part of your problem.

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Edited by - DougD on 09/21/2010 07:11:05

woodwiz - Posted - 09/21/2010:  07:27:49

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Around here, the contra dances go at 1/4 = 120, as well. That's 480 - 16th notes per minute, 8 per second. That's kind of default speed; it can go faster.

mswlogo - Posted - 09/21/2010:  10:06:34

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quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

mswlogo - I think the problem is your assumptions about what is being measured. The downbeat is the first beat of the measure - 4/4 time has only one downbeat per measure. And I think bpm means just that - beast per minute, not measures or half measures per minute. If you're playing "Liberty" at 150 1/4 notes per minute that's 150 bpm, not 75, which seems a little fast for that tune.
I just listened to my metronome at 120bpm and it seems a little slow to me. I think dances around here tend to be faster, although I think the contra dances often fall into the last category alaskafiddler mentioned.

PS - To further complicate things, at least in the Fiddler's Companion, "Liberty" is written in "cut time," the "C" with the slash through it. This is a fast duple meter, where the half note, not the quarter note gets one beat (two beats per measure). Following this convention, 120 bpm is plenty fast for that tune - 110 might be better. So playing 150 1/4 notes per minute in this case is 75 bpm, since only every other quarter note gets a beat.

A little more about this: If you look in "Ryan's Mammoth Collection" (Or, I imagine, "Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes") some of the reels are written in 2/4, and some in cut time (2/2 really). For the tunes in cut time, the basic unit of the melody is the eighth note, while for the tunes in 2/4 the basic unit is the sixteenth note. Although you might think these 2/4 tunes would be much faster, or twice as fast, they're not - its just a different way of writing them. Both have two beats per measure, as far as the metronome is concerned, but in the 2/4 tunes a quarter note gets one beat, and in the cut time tunes a half note gets one beat. I think this may be part of your problem.

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I don't think that's right. There is no way I'm playing anything at 150 BPM and I play it a little slower than Brian Wicklands begginner CD performance.

I believe in 4/4 time there are 2 downbeats (1 and 3 - Typically down foot taps) and that is what is typically being counted when folks say "BPM".

The software is showing 1/4 notes per minute which is why it says 150. It does not say BPM it says 1/4 notes per minute. 150 1/4 notes per minute is generally considered slow (i.e. 75 BPM).

My bottom line question is should I be shooting for 120-130 or 100-110 (100-110 FEELS like the pace of those dances I've gone to and that is my ultimate goal, to play at one of those dances).

woodwiz - Posted - 09/21/2010:  10:27:44

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Depends on the resolution of the piece. If the basic notes of the melody are 1/8 notes, the tempo would be written as 1/4 = 240, or 1/2 = 120. If the basic notes of the melody are 16th notes, the tempo would normally be written as 1/4 = 240. They all represent the same thing, just written differently.

There is sometimes a difference between beats per minute and tempo. Jigs, for example, may be written in 6/8 time, but really have only 2 beats per measure.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/21/2010:  12:18:58

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Here are the typical ways you would see a fiddle tune written out:

4/4 - which will be based on 8 eighth notes in a measure (equates to 4 quarter notes). Reads 1and2and3and4and. The 1 and 3 are the bass/boom; the 2 and 4 are the chucks. The usual interpretation is that 1 is the strongest, 3 is strong but not quite as much. Typically you see much of it written as 2 groups of 4 beamed eighth notes. A contra dancer would step right on 1, left on 3. It would have 2 Nashville shuffles per measure.

Cut time (a C with a line thru) is equivalent to 2/2; which looks the same as how the 4/4 looks; 8 eighth notes in a measure (also equates to 4 quarter notes; as well as 2 half notes). Typically you see much of it written as 2 groups of 4 beamed eighth notes. Reads 1-e-and-a-2-e-and-a. The 1 and 2 are the bass/boom; the 'and' are the chucks. A contra dancer would step right on 1, left on 2. It would still have 2 Nashville shuffles per measure.

2/4 - based on 8 sixteenth notes in a measure. Equates to 2 quarter notes per measure. But now you are using the sixteenth as the basic unit. Looks almost the same but now you would see much of it written as 2 groups of 4 double beamed sixteenth notes.Reads 1-e-and-e 2-e-and-e. The 1 and 2 are the bass/boom; the 'and' are the chucks. A contra dancer would step right on 1, left on 2. It would still have 2 Nashville shuffles per measure.

2/4 - written as 4 eighth notes in a measure. This is the same as above, except that each measure is split into two measures. Reads 1&2&. The 1 is the bass/boom; the 2 is the chuck. The alternating bass comes from two measures. A contra dancer would step right on 1, left on the next 1. It has 1 Nashville shuffle per measure. This comes in handy for writing some crooked tunes without having to change the metric signature back and forth. Sometimes this is written as 4/4, reading just 1234. Again just the 1 is the boom; the 3 is the chuck. Again a contra dancer would step right on 1, left on the next 1. It would still have 1 Nashville shuffle per measure. This tends to be harder to read as you don't get to use beams to unite notes together.

Occasionally you might see a tune written in 4/4 with 16 sixteenth notes to a measure. This just combining two of the 8 note measures as one. Reads 1-e-and-a-2-e-and-a-3-e-and-a-4-e-and-a. The bass/booms are on the 1, 2, 3, and 4, the chucks on the "ands" A contra dancer would step right on 1, left on 2, right on 3, left on 4. This has 4 Nashville shuffles per measure. This is rare for fiddle/dance tunes as 16 notes in a measure is harder to read. But this is common for the melody line of songs (not fiddle tunes with words). There actually is a good reason to do this for songs.

Note that none of the above actually changes how the tune is played or the feel. Reels, polkas, marches can use any of the above. Don't get hung up on which is appropriate debate. People have and do write those in all of the above. You just have to interpret what they mean, and it's generally pretty obvious.

The tempo marking is generally one of two ways. Each step or bass/boom, or (the start of) each Nashville shuffle is counted as one beat (one tick on the metronome), comes at 120 bpm apart for example. The other way, that some bluegrass players like is twice that, each boom and chuck, each Nashville shuffle counts as 2 beats (2 ticks on the metronome), the same tempo would be indicated as 240 bpm.

The 120 or 240 is pretty obvious which they are indicating, if misinterpreted would be either way too slow or way too fast. The "Liberty" example of 150 is a bit tougher. Neither is probably meant for dance. 150 as the step, bass is fast to play for that tune but doable. I doubt for dance (possible for a fast square) but a bluegrass/performance might play it that fast. 150 as the boom and chuck is pretty slow, (yes would be equivalent to 75 step); but would be perhaps appropriate for teaching a tune or a slow jam. Brian is an awesome musician and I have attended a great contra dance with his band "Brother Mule" that clipped pretty well, I'm sure he "could" play it at the fast meaning of 150 (probably not for a dance); he also has a strong bluegrass background. That combined with it's a beginner CD, my guess is he is using the latter definition of tempo marking.

If your goal is to get up to 120-130 my suggestion is to perhaps evaluate your tunes to do that with. Liberty is pretty notey, IMO feels better at a moderate pace. Other tunes might work better to use for faster tempos. Ultimately for dances what you want is rather the ability to play any tune at any tempo from 100 to 140, have tunes that work in more specific ranges of tempo. So you have slower/moderate tunes; faster moderate tunes; and then fast tunes; and be able to pick the right tune for the desired tempo.

mswlogo - Posted - 09/21/2010:  12:40:56

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Alaska,

Great explaination and more or less how I understood it. The Liberty was not a good example as a contra tune and I'm well aware Brian could play Liberty way faster than anyone would ever dance too. I only stated Brian's liberty as reference of what Tempo I'm at now and how much further I think I need to go to get to moderate Dance Tempo. I still don't think a lot folks realize how fast 128 BPM (in the context of Contra Dance) is. Like the link I provided above it seemed to jive with what I'm seeing that he said anything above 120 BPM is blazing fast to dance to and stops being "fun". Most dances I go to 1/3 of the dancers are first timers and I think the Band/Caller knows that and slows it down to 100-110-ish. Which tells me I don't have too far to go to get to "Beginner Dance Tempo" which seems to be almost every dance I've seen because there are always first timers. There is a much more advanced contra dance in Concord MA and they do perhaps go 120-128 BPM (no walk throughs etc.).

DougD - Posted - 09/21/2010:  14:11:46

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I believe in 4/4 time there are 2 downbeats (1 and 3 - Typically down foot taps) and that is what is typically being counted when folks say "BPM".

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This is incorrect. The downbeat is the first beat of the measure. Here is an online dictionary of musical terms, not always perfect, but pretty close: music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/ However, 1 and 3 might well be what the metronome is counting, depending on how the tune is notated.

In your first post you said "Any way it shows Beats Per Minute (BPM) as 1/4 Notes per minute (depending on Time signature it may show 1/8 or 1/2) and you can change it." This would seem to be a problem with the program, or your use of it. If you are playing 150 1/4 notes per minute, then that would be 150 BPM by that definition.

Then you said: "The software is showing 1/4 notes per minute which is why it says 150. It does not say BPM it says 1/4 notes per minute. 150 1/4 notes per minute is generally considered slow (i.e. 75 BPM)." It doesn't seem like it can be both ways.

For the record, I play "Liberty" at about 110 BPM, which seems like a pretty good clip. Also, I don't see how anyone can play with a metronome, or why its thought to be a good idea, unless you're trying to learn to be a robot. It has no "swing" whatsoever.

I think when you get to "moderate dance tempo" you'll just know it. Forget the numbers!

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Edited by - DougD on 09/21/2010 14:18:13

Reilly-Byrne - Posted - 09/21/2010:  15:48:21

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Just to see, I tried Liberty at 150----you can't be serious! BTW, a metronome is a very useful learning device, especially in learning a new tune that you might want to play with someone else.

mswlogo - Posted - 09/22/2010:  04:27:01

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Originally posted by Reilly-Byrne

Just to see, I tried Liberty at 150----you can't be serious! BTW, a metronome is a very useful learning device, especially in learning a new tune that you might want to play with someone else.

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150 what? That's sort of the topic here. Some software is a great learning device too and you need to understand the units it's working in. It's 150 1/4 notes per second not 150 BPM.

I found a Metronome alone just incredibly clumsy, boring and limiting. I much rather listen to chords (even cheesy ones) or a drum or both, record the tempo I'm at with each tune etc. with relatively inexpensive software.

BanjoBrad - Posted - 09/22/2010:  14:10:44

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It's 150 1/4 notes per second not 150 BPM.

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THAT is fast! Too fast - I doubt even a bluegrass banjo player could play 150 1/4 notes per second.

If the tempo says 1/4 = 150, that is 150 BPM where 1 beat equals the value of one 1/4 note.

-B-

DougD - Posted - 09/23/2010:  07:24:28

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BTW, at the end of this YouTube clip, Bob Wills and Joe Holley play a little of "Liberty" youtube.com/watch?v=BCDG9NQx4Vc
I think they're playing about 132 to 135 BPM, which is pretty fast. Maybe they knew they were running out of time!

leemysliwiec - Posted - 12/15/2010:  15:08:59

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As i hear it, the Bob Willis, Liberty, would be considered WAY too fast for the average dancer. We usually play 115-120. Some tunes seem to flow best a little faster and some a little slower. A good musician will watch the dancers and notice if they are having to rush through the tune. If so, a good musician or caller will slow thing down a little. It should be fun and not hectic. LEE

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Edited by - leemysliwiec on 12/15/2010 15:09:56

bj - Posted - 12/15/2010:  20:54:26

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Also, I don't see how anyone can play with a metronome, or why its thought to be a good idea, unless you're trying to learn to be a robot. It has no "swing" whatsoever.

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Boy do you have that right!

Bart - Posted - 12/15/2010:  21:30:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj

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Also, I don't see how anyone can play with a metronome, or why its thought to be a good idea, unless you're trying to learn to be a robot. It has no "swing" whatsoever.

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Boy do you have that right!

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That's interesting to me. When I play with a metronome, and I want to swing, I swing my playing around the beat. I can swing with a metronome. It's like when you play the piano, and your bass hand holds a rhythm, and your treble hand syncopates all around it.

M-D - Posted - 12/15/2010:  21:58:13

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I play with a metronome. His name is Mike, and he plays guitar.

I up-loaded a file of my friend Sam playing Liberty. The tempo is a normal tempo for square-dancing and/or jigging in the Ozarks.

fiddlehangout.com/myhangout/mu...asp?id=10

leemysliwiec - Posted - 12/16/2010:  04:53:35

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I agree with you Bart .The original post asked about "dance tempo". Even as a tune 'swings', there needs to be a steady beat behind it. Steady. If it is not, the dancers notice it. I am aware of bands not being rebooked because they "swang all over the place' and didn't have a steady beat for the dancers.

carlb - Posted - 12/16/2010:  15:21:37

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Dance tempo: Whatever the caller tells you what speed to play at. It can vary widely between callers. Anybody ever play a square dance for Bonnie Blair O'Conner?

ssawyer - Posted - 01/27/2011:  21:26:50

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I would think "up to speed" for dance- is subjective to the dancers needs- and the callers choice.
musicians -also need to watch the dancers and caller for signs to speed up or slow down-
for practice yes..100 bpm - to 160.
some tunes are better suited for different needs. tune choice is important.
an example of this is- some dances have tight fitting moves- some looser-
ex. a dosdo can be executed in 6 beats as opposed to 8-..
some [types] of Heys for 4, can take less time to complete-. those fractions can add up ...making the dancers either late for the next move :( or too early for the next move. some types of dances work better fast paced even for beginners-.. sometimes its best to start at a slower speed [even] with experienced dancers if the dance is complicated and tight fitting. or perhaps the band is too hot..and dancers have stopped dancing because they are exhausted. always leave them wanting more.

Peghead - Posted - 02/04/2011:  14:17:58

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My thinking has always been to practice playing with the metronome not like one. It's a control thing. It's a regular part of the practice routine for most of the best players I know.

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Edited by - Peghead on 02/04/2011 14:26:06

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/04/2011:  17:55:10

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Originally posted by Peghead

My thinking has always been to practice playing with the metronome not like one. It's a control thing. It's a regular part of the practice routine for most of the best players I know.

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Exactly.
IMO If you can't swing with a metronome keeping steady time, you can't swing.

MikeyBoy - Posted - 02/04/2011:  23:50:00

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

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Originally posted by Peghead

My thinking has always been to practice playing with the metronome not like one. It's a control thing. It's a regular part of the practice routine for most of the best players I know.

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Exactly.
IMO If you can't swing with a metronome keeping steady time, you can't swing.

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Seconded. Or thirded. You must be able to play with a metronome. You are only fooling yourself if you think otherwise...

Sue B. - Posted - 02/19/2011:  09:21:25

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I've checked Cajun dance speeds on a few CDs with a metronome. Waltzes are typically between 124 & 132. Two-steps are around 104-108. The occasional two-step is played slower, at a "comfortable lope." Some vintage recordings are quite a bit faster, and since they were recorded live and before recordings could be manipulated after the fact, I want to guess that the dancers used to almost run around the dance floor :) Sue

leemysliwiec - Posted - 02/25/2011:  14:38:58

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Once, I was listening to a duo of really great, famous, old time musicians on a CD. I clearly heard of them saying to the other, "slow down!". Somehow I felt relieved after I heard that. Even good musicians struggle with timing. I am NOT alone.!!!!!!!!!! Neither are you. LEE

leemysliwiec - Posted - 04/14/2011:  15:10:18

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Now that I have had a few weeks to think about it,  I realize that dance tempo should be considered in conjunction with "phrasing".   Contra dance moves are frequently designed in groups of 8 beats.   If the musicians don't emphasize the phrasing, the dancers have difficulty  "feeling" the tune.  Good phrasing  stressed by the musicians  can really animate a line of dancers.  Tempo WITH phrasing.  Good combination.  Does anyone know what I am refering to?   

alaskafiddler - Posted - 04/14/2011:  16:34:13

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Yep, I know what you are referring to. Some callers refer to it as "play a phrased tune", meaning the every eight beats has a distinctive separation. Emphasising the 4 beat helps to, as many of the moves are in groups of 4 steps, or point out the halfway of a move (star/circle left=4, and back by the right=4).  Especially when playing for beginners or a complicated move, playing stressed "phrased" tunes really help guide the dancers. Some of the phraisng can be accomplished with chord changes, and (chord change or not) many tunes just lend themselves to having that phrased feel. Liberty, Mississippi Sawyer are good examples.

Lots of southern fiddling styles do not overly emphasize that 4 step group (8 is usually more obvious), that is they tend to run the first phrase right into the second by filling all the space. It might be obvious to the musician, but not to all the dancers. Those tunes can usually be made to emphasize it though. The trick is leave space after the fourth beat.

One-a-tock-a-Two-a-tock-a-Three-a-tock-a-Four... will achieve it, but Four - tock will too. Just giving a bit of space. The second phrase often has a phrase that puts space in after the Three - One-a-tock-a-Two-a-tock-a-Three-(a-tock-a)-Four...  That stressed Three can help signal to the dancer on 8 beat moves.

When it gets filled up so it's a smooth .........-a-Three-a-tock-a-Four-a-tock-a-One-a-tock-a, with no chord change or heavy emphasis on the beat, that's when to the less experienced dancers can get confused.

Myself, I like contra dancing to the smooth flowing southern tunes. I think once you are experienced in dancing, the feel of 4's are more obvious.