royce - Posted - 11/21/2007:  13:48:37

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang...ic.asp?id=38

A tune we recorded this morning. I played all the parts except the fiddle. My good friend and fellow band mate supplied his nice skills. I play mostly bluegrass, but I like the old time sounding stuff alot.

fiddlepLuker - Posted - 11/21/2007:  17:10:56

Royce,

...very nice tune you uploaded -thanks! I kicked off Angeline the Baker -on the A string and a picking buddy stopped me saying it wasn't correct. Apparently he learned it differently and kicks off the "B" part first -on D string with standard mandolin tuning. He said old time fiddlers started it off the D string.

Any truth or rumor to this cause I am confused!

Thanks for any thoughts...

OTJunky - Posted - 11/21/2007:  17:26:03

My advice....

Go listen to the recording of it on oldtimer's home page. That's the way most people play it.

Then find yourself another picking "buddy" and start it off however you like...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

Edited by - OTJunky on 11/21/2007 18:45:21

royce - Posted - 11/21/2007:  19:28:10

I'm not sure there are not a few different ways to start it off. It's an old tune and probably has been played many different ways. I've alway heard it played in the Key of D but I'm sure there are many acceptable variations. In summary, play it the way you want, it's a free country.

Skunkhound - Posted - 11/22/2007:  11:56:12

I was originally taught the tune by a friend the way it was just played, I think she learned it in Virginia. I took it to my fiddle teacher here in Georgia and he said "good job' but you got the parts mixed up". Maybe it's a regional thing.

I think it sounds good either way, but I do play it the opposite of Royce version, just personal prefrence.

Dave

Say it might have been a fiddle, or it could have been the wind.............

oldtimer - Posted - 11/22/2007:  12:14:20

Mike Long, who plays clawhammer banjo with me, mentioned that he had always played it the reverse of the way I play it, but I have always heard it the way I play it. I'm guessing that it may have been in some book like the Fiddler's Fake book or the Phillips Collection the other way around.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey


"Time passes unhindered"

frfiddle - Posted - 11/22/2007:  21:07:13

For what it is worth Alan Jabbour has a theory that it is characteristic of southern old time fiddling to begin the tune on the high part in contrast to the Bristish isles tradit6ion of beginning on the low part.

[i][i][i]“[i][i]Soldier’s Joy,” “Hop Light Ladies,” or “Leather Britches” (the last two derived from the Old World “McLeod’s
Reel” and “Lord MacDonald’s Reel”) usually begin with the low strain and conclude with the high strain, in proper Old
World and Northern New World fashion. On the other hand, most of the tunes that begin with the high strain seem to be
tunes that originate in the South – tunes like “Forked Deer” or “Old Joe Clark.”[/i

http://www.alanjabbour.com/cascading_tunes.html

Of course he admits there are many, many exceptions, but when you begin to listen for it in the old fiddlers it is amazing how many of them begin on the high part.

Angeline is I think definitely a southern invention, not a British leftover, and if Jabbour is right, then it probably started out starting out on the high part.

It is not a matter of correct or incorrect, but it is a slightly different sensibility, especially when you notice that revivalists have a real preference for beginning on the low part.

Lest I or Alan Jabbour be accused of being too narrow minded, let me say you can begin any tune any way you like.



frfiddle

OTJunky - Posted - 11/22/2007:  21:30:24

I've heard of Jabbour's theory about this and have even been to his web-site and read his "paper' on it. At least that's where I think I read it. He suggests that the propensity among Southern fiddlers to start on the high part might be due to the influence of American Indians. Apparently a lot of American Indian rhythmic "chants" go from a high part to a low part.

I can't say that I found this argument convincing.

My own theory on it is that a fiddler will tend to start out on the part that makes it easier for accompaniests and listeners to know what tune's being played.

If you start "Old Joe Clark", "Cotton Eyed Joe", "Breaking Up Christmas", "Sourwood Mountain", "Liberty", "Hell Among the Yearlings" or "Katie Hill" on the "low" part no one will have any idea what tune's being played until you eventually wind your way to the high part - so you might as well start'em out on the high part.

Similarly "Leather Britches", "Billy in the Low Ground" and "Soldier's Joy" really need to start on the "low" part so people will recognize the tune sooner rather than later.

Finally, some tunes like "Did You Ever go to Meetin', Uncle Joe" (Hop High Ladies) or "Angeline the Baker" can be started on either part - since both the high and low parts are recognizable as part of the tunes.

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

frfiddle - Posted - 11/22/2007:  21:48:09

Yeah, the Indian bit is lost on me as well. But that the high part is the more recognizable part of the tune is part of Jabbour's hypothesis, namely that the high part is the more 'important part' more developed part of the tune.'

Out of sheer boredom on Thanksging night I quickly complied a list based on the repretoire of the Galax-Mt Airy fiddlers and anyway you cut it the high part wins pretty clearly

High
Ark traveler(more often than not)
Miss sawyer
June Apple
Sourwood mt
cottoneyed joe
stillhouse/cider
sally ann
train on the island
old molly hare
polly put the kettle on
fortune
baby-o
backstep cindy/holly ding
rockingham cindy
sweet little julie
cripple creek
cluck old hen
pretty little girl/john brownsdream
blackeyed suzie
cacklin hen
breakin up christmas
walking in the parlor
cousin sally brown
johnnys gone to war/tommy love
sandy river belle
greasy string
flopeared mule
sugar in the gourd
crickett on the hearth

Low
sally Goodin
Turkey in the straw
suzanna gal/western country
bigeyed rabbit
lost indian
yellow rose of texas
paddy on the turnpike
old jimmy sutton (often begun on the high part)

And as far as my memory serves most of these players begin Angeline on the high part, even for example in the Norman Edmonds version, where the accompanists couldnt figure the melody, whatever part he began with.

The problem with your theory is that one would guess that most of these habits began in the fiddle tradition long before there were any accompanists.

What a weird and fun way to do nothing of any significance. If you read again the Jabbour article. you will see he came up with this stuff while doing jury duty!

frfiddle

Edited by - frfiddle on 11/22/2007 21:54:00

royce - Posted - 11/22/2007:  23:58:19

All those fiddlers that play the high part first are just FLAT OUT WRONG. END OF STORY....

just teasing....I really don't know how it's supposed to go but as you go to different areas of the country many times you'll find the way you've been doing standard stuff is different than what others are doing in different regions. I guess it's similar to dialects and accents in language in that segments of any region will have similar accents linguistically speaking and I guess a similar thing can be seen in fiddle tunes if that makes any sense at all.....

fiddlepLuker - Posted - 11/23/2007:  00:25:31

High part / Low part what a confusing thing -can I figure high part means the B part and low part means the A part? My initial use of right / wrong is a poor choice -I should have said differently. The picking friend is from the Va area of the country. while I am from Ga. I am glad the question has sparked some dialog cause someone(s) always seems to learn from it.

I kinda like the idea Royce has tossed out for the difference ***shrug***

Royce, I apologize I did not mean to hi-jack the thread.

fiddlepLuker -pLukon

Edited by - fiddlepLuker on 11/23/2007 00:26:09

bsed - Posted - 11/23/2007:  19:17:32

I've just been going through one of my notebooks of tabbed fiddle tunes, and most of them start on the "fine" part. (Where did that word "fine" come from as pertaining to high part of fiddle tunes, anyhow?) I'm not going to try to come up with a theory. It might just be the predilection of he/she who made it up. Or it's the 'Tradition'.

Anyhow, I remember starting the tune Spotted Pony in a session one time & I was advised that the tune really starts on the 'Coarse' part. (Where did that word "coarse" come from as pertaining to the low part of fiddle tunes, anyhow?) And my thought---which I did not voice out loud---was "What the H___ difference does it make?"





"I can, and do, cut my own hair."
-Dwight Shroot

"I convinced my boss of my acumen in sales, and he rewarded me with these two plaques of recognition in lieu of a pay increase."
-Dwight Shroot

krugwaffle - Posted - 11/26/2007:  03:24:24

Thinking back to my hillbilly/Southern/OT roots, I can see where fine-high and coarse-low would be synonyms. Fine for the thin strings also for the more detailed, brighter sounding parts, coarse for the thick strings and the more droning, chorded simpler part. Where I come from songs are more divided into the call/response parts. They don't normally correspond with high/low but divide the melody into parts. High/low is more just making use of the instrument's entire range.

Which one you start with is usually the preference of the performer. For solo performance, I usually start with the low part leading into the high. I can see the point of starting high, though, if you're kicking off something other performers aren't too familiar with. If you're leading off something for a large group the high part will get you heard above all the other instruments. Most fiddlers lead in the high/fine range so they'll sandbag that part until it's their time to take off.

loy - Posted - 11/26/2007:  07:07:47

Well don't know if it's right or wrong the way you started it out Royce but I do know it was some dang fine pickin and sawin, hope to hear more....right or wrong!!

fiddle and clawhammer banjo:priceless

DougD - Posted - 12/09/2007:  12:14:53

This tune didn't just fall out of the sky onto some southern mountaintop, you know. It was written by Stephen Foster, and you can search for the original sheet music here: http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/
Although its definitely been modified over the years, the outline of the melody is still recognizable. The part we think of as the "high" part is the verse, so it comes first, although most fiddlers start with a note a third higher than written, and the "low" part is the chorus, which comes next. It has nothing to do with Indians - thats just the way it was written.
Of course you can play it any way you want.

Edited by - DougD on 12/09/2007 12:17:27

ladymuse - Posted - 12/09/2007:  14:52:25

Since I have seen several versions of it - (and the original in Stephen Foster's book) and man! the differences! LOL!

To me the intro of the generally accepted version (sic) (Part A) is more recognizable - -the picker's view crack's me up -(B part)
because I too first learned it by ear - (part A w/ drones then B -)
and when one learns by ear, one tends to get it ingrained -

Comment related: playing telephone with fiddle tunes thru the ages

Although I love following those musicologist adventures that pick up all the variations, and ponder over them,
I must say - that all the wonder about variations in a tune leave me laughing, cause anyone that actually plays the instrument in question will realize that most of them come from

a) didn't fully remember the tune and get it down, so just made up a part that fits -
b) the instrument in question was having a tough time with the fingering/melody, so adjusted it so that they could play it -
c) only learned one part, and added or wrote a second or third section -
D) Didn't know the words, or only some words, and filked it and added their own - with a part to match -

I am gleefully guilty of all the above - but I avidly follow tunes down through history

But music is a great vehicle for the telephone game -
and we are all richer for it!

Jen

DougD - Posted - 12/09/2007:  20:26:13

Jen, yes all those things happen, but also anybody that plays a tune puts a little personal touch to it, intentionally or not. This song is over 150 years old, and I'm just glad Stephen Foster came up with it.
I think my favorite version is here: http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsamp...%20Baker.mp3
Not much related to the original, and hard (for me) to sing in D, but tells a good story.
Wow, you have Stephen Foster's book? That must be worth some bucks!