Diane in Chicago - Posted - 08/28/2010:  17:25:09

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I stumbled on this tune and it has taken me a while to sort it out. I found some notation here abbamoses.com/fiddledo/fiddlepage, which showed fours and sixes on the B part.

But counting it out from youtube and from the Berea recording, it seems more like five beats per measure. So I am going with the fives.

aca-dla.org/Berea/image/1003.mp3 - is that Clyde Davenport? I think it might be.

youtube.com/watch?v=4ejDWYbpLW0

Was it fours and sixes once, and is now fives?

What a really, really great tune!

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/28/2010:  17:52:09

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In the Berea recording, the banjo occasionally loses its way, something that makes it difficult to do a precise analysis of the rhythm. Trying to parse this one will probably be frustrating.

The YouTube performance doesn't get into the fancy syncopations that can really put the tune into the stratosphere but it is still a solid, musicianly, convincing rendition. It's a good one to listen to in order to get the piece into your head.

As for idea of counting beats, I think it'd be a better idea to just listen to the piece a dozen or so times over the course of several days. Don't try to count it out. Instead, let the musical phrases dance their way into your consciousness. Eventually, the piece will stop being crooked. It'll make musical sense. It'll be much easier to learn. You'll also come to see how truly wonderful it is.

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Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 08/28/2010 17:52:40

bsed - Posted - 08/28/2010:  19:03:00

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The tune "5 Miles.." is basically in 4/4 time most of the time. It is what is known as a crooked tune. It has a few measures that have either more or fewer than 4 beats (I'll guess fewer, although I'm not great at counting beats in crooked tunes---I find it easier to just listen to the tune till I think I've got it).

That said, if you listen to Clyde Davenport's version, it is more crooked and squirrely than the U-Tube version, which sounds to me like a cleaned up "festival version" of the tune.

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Edited by - bsed on 08/28/2010 19:04:47

DougD - Posted - 08/28/2010:  19:03:38

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Yes that recording from Berea is Clyde Davenport. Another link would be: aca-dla.org/cdm4/item_viewer.p...006&REC=3

The YouTube video are my pals Walt Koken and Claire Milliner, and I assume they listened carefully to something before playing it, as evidenced by all those ribbons in the background!

Jeff Todd Titon's transcription is available online: books.google.com/books?id=mmbq...y&f=false
He says that Clyde is the sole source for this tune.

As to how the tune goes, I don't know, but the materials to learn it are there.

ironworker - Posted - 08/28/2010:  19:27:56

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ed's got it right- on the DLA (from berea) recording, the banjo gets a little wonky (first), and it throws clyde off a bit.

listen to clyde's version on his "Clydeoscope" release for a pretty good, straight run-through.

this is a truly fine tune, and learning it has helped my playing in a lot of ways- tough bowing and d.s., for sure.
as far as beats per measure? listen to the source till you've got it in your head, then let it percolate a while, then start to work your way through it until you are comfortable with the way you play it.

don't overanalyze- play it like you hear it, and the way you like it.
i can guarantee that mr. davenport would gine you the same advice.

michael ford

eerohero - Posted - 08/28/2010:  22:40:15

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I agree with Michael here ,dont get yourself a headache with timings here,play as it sounds comfy for Ya, kick the ground, and let your Bow do the rest of the Journey

revdoc - Posted - 08/29/2010:  07:37:12

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John Sharp also recorded this tune and his version is harder for me to figure.

Diane in Chicago - Posted - 08/29/2010:  08:15:24

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For those of you playing along at home, by breaking the phrases down I get this:

A part:
4 beats
4 beats
4 beats (essentially a repeat)
4 beats
then
4 beats
4 beats


B part:
5 beats, stress on the second beat
5 beats, stress on the second beat
5 beats, stress on the second beat
4 beats
4 beats (and much like the phrase in A)

I know for some of you it is no fun to break a tune down this way. But once I saw the phrases like this, it was easier to catch the tune a phrase at a time.

Following the notation for help, I was only more flummoxed because the repeated patterns fall in different places in the measures, and this tune is tricky enough to begin with. And I'd rather go with my ears anyway.

I love these crooked tunes.

ironworker - Posted - 08/29/2010:  09:03:42

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quote:

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Originally posted by ironworker

ed's got it right- on the DLA (from berea) recording, the banjo gets a little wonky (first), and it throws clyde off a bit.

listen to clyde's version on his "Clydeoscope" release for a pretty good, straight run-through.

this is a truly fine tune, and learning it has helped my playing in a lot of ways- tough bowing and d.s., for sure.
as far as beats per measure? listen to the source till you've got it in your head, then let it percolate a while, then start to work your way through it until you are comfortable with the way you play it.

don't overanalyze- play it like you hear it, and the way you like it.
i can guarantee that mr. davenport would give you the same advice.

michael ford

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that being said, in order to learn this tune i had to sit down with a pencil and pad
and count out the reps of the parts.

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Edited by - ironworker on 08/29/2010 09:07:01

robinja - Posted - 09/01/2010:  10:21:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Diane in Chicago

For those of you playing along at home, by breaking the phrases down I get this:

A part:
4 beats
4 beats
4 beats (essentially a repeat)
4 beats
then
4 beats
4 beats


B part:
5 beats, stress on the second beat
5 beats, stress on the second beat
5 beats, stress on the second beat
4 beats
4 beats (and much like the phrase in A)

I know for some of you it is no fun to break a tune down this way. But once I saw the phrases like this, it was easier to catch the tune a phrase at a time.

Following the notation for help, I was only more flummoxed because the repeated patterns fall in different places in the measures, and this tune is tricky enough to begin with. And I'd rather go with my ears anyway.

I love these crooked tunes.

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That is EXACTLY how I look at this tune. I put this tune on repeat on my MP3 player for several days and listened in the car wherever I went. I spent half the time tapping out the beats and counting and half the time deedling the tune. I finally got it, but for me, if it's crooked, I have to figure out how it is crooked so I don't accidentally straighten it out.

One other thing, I have learned that I have to warn guitar and bass players that they are going to feel "upside down" in the B part, but they will be straightened out again once they get back to the A. Some may do some adjustment while playing - I don't know - but they seem to appreciate the warning.

Judy

wooliver - Posted - 09/01/2010:  11:08:15

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This too is Five Miles from Town:

youtube.com/watch?v=y26PNdaDR6M

This is not intended to muddy up the water.
Sometimes you'll hit on a version that connects with you, if you hear enough of them.

carlb - Posted - 09/01/2010:  20:03:52

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Now, there is another Clyde Davenport tune in Titon's book, 'Dandy Jim'. which, in spite of the fact that the A part was transcribed as 4/4, the part is actually in 5/4 (which I did write about to Jeff and send a revised transcription). Just check the repeated phrases. He agreed and said that he'd put it in the next printing (which probably won't happen, like Bayard's "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife). It's the only old time tune, that I know of, in which an entire part is in 5/4.

robinja - Posted - 09/07/2010:  14:44:30

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Interesting side note about this tune. We played it in a hot jam over the weekend - very rare that this tune works out well in a jam, but it just so happened that we all knew it and played it similarly. When we finished playing it, my friend Keith Loveland mentioned that he had a hard time learning this tune until he figured out it was a train tune, and then it made sense to him.

I thought about that all night, and he is so right! It has to be a train tune. The A part starts out with the clickety-clackety on the tracks, throws in a mournful whistle, then back to the clickety clack. The B part is a series of whistles, again ending in the clickety clack. Very cool! I think the next time I play it, I'll try to blurt out a "Whoo -ooo- woooooooh!" at some point during the tune.

I think Keith is absolutely right about this. The title even makes sense with this theory. What do y'all think?

Judy

ironworker - Posted - 09/07/2010:  14:55:25

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right or wrong, that's a fine way to remember this tune-
i can't find fault with this theory-it's probably right,
but i'd personally like to be able to make it about
an ornery mule intent on punishing his rider.
we could refer to the source,and see what mr. davenport thinks.

Feodosia - Posted - 09/17/2010:  09:07:02

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This tune must have another name ... Im listening to it here and I know that Ive played it before under another name ...especially the 2nd part .... come on brain , think...think LOL

hendrid - Posted - 09/17/2010:  09:48:49

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Jimmy/Feodosia, I searched a little back when this was worked and you are right. Also same as Five Miles To Town and also From I guess. No promises.... Don

FIVE LEAF CLOVER (Matt Glaser) a.k.a. "The Hunter's Purse FIVE MILES TO TOWN (Clyde Davenport) stacyphillips.com/toc-phillips...vol1.html

Five Leaf Clover - Irish Tune - John Ryan's Polka
youtube.com/watch?v=K9yrCxtM75M
youtube.com/watch?v=3rBwdV2zp1...e=related

also another note: a reel I know as The Five Leaf Clover although it's called the Hunter's Purse on Kevin Burke's CD. youtube.com/watch?v=t2UUIo6Rs60

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Edited by - hendrid on 09/17/2010 09:50:31

crocodile - Posted - 06/11/2011:  21:39:26

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This website has a version which is slightly more crooked than Clyde Davenport's. The only difference is that they subtract this 4 8th note section from the end of the 2nd round of the b part. It's super clean, simple fiddling too, which makes it easier to understand. home.comcast.net/~wefiddle1/mp...otown.mp3

Diane in Chicago - Posted - 06/11/2011:  22:03:49

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Wow, thanks!  That is a great recording!

bsed - Posted - 06/12/2011:  19:32:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by crocodile

This website has a version which is slightly more crooked than Clyde Davenport's. The only difference is that they subtract this 4 8th note section from the end of the 2nd round of the b part. It's super clean, simple fiddling too, which makes it easier to understand. home.comcast.net/~wefiddle1/mp...otown.mp3

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I don't know. Sounds more regular to my ear, not more crooked. Still a real intriguing recording. I've been trying to get Clyde's sound for years.

Diane in Chicago - Posted - 06/13/2011:  07:34:17

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Nine months later, I no longer agree with  myself.  The notation has alternating 4 beat measures and 6 beat measures for the B part, and that makes more sense.  Plus I can hear things I couldn't hear back then, and the time I've take away from this tune has let me take a better swing at it.  That new cleaner version helped too.  The banjo on the Davenport recording was getting in the way.

 

 

quote:

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Originally posted by Diane in Chicago



For those of you playing along at home, by breaking the phrases down I get this:



A part:

4 beats

4 beats

4 beats (essentially a repeat)

4 beats

then

4 beats

4 beats





B part:

5 beats, stress on the second beat

5 beats, stress on the second beat

5 beats, stress on the second beat

4 beats

4 beats (and much like the phrase in A)



I know for some of you it is no fun to break a tune down this way. But once I saw the phrases like this, it was easier to catch the tune a phrase at a time.



Following the notation for help, I was only more flummoxed because the repeated patterns fall in different places in the measures, and this tune is tricky enough to begin with. And I'd rather go with my ears anyway.



I love these crooked tunes.

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