bluesviolin - Posted - 04/21/2010:  21:24:02

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Hello everyone, just joined up, real curious to see if there's any mode players out there? ... adapting any given major scale to various minors, dom 7th, jazz scales, by starting/ending & emphasizing different notes of the major scale. I mainly use (in order of most frequently used) dorian, mixolydian, aeolian & phyrgian. Still need more work on lydian & locrian.

Anyways, yada yada, I think it's a pretty easy way to think scales out. Thought it was like a magic trick when I first discovered it,

Any opinions?

fresiatap - Posted - 04/22/2010:  13:55:21

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How do you do this again? start on a different scale degree and go up like a major or minor scale? Thanks.

bluesviolin - Posted - 04/22/2010:  16:16:24

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Thanks for your interest Fresiatap. You really need different types of back ground music to play to for your ear to click into, or you may not "get" it. Let's take a minor-ish blues in A for dorian. (which is different than a dominant 7 blues which would be mixolydian) Anyways, just start at the root note of A, but only play notes that are contained in the G major scale. Use this formula for all keys, the maj scale for dorian is a whole tone lower. You can play a G maj. scale over a whole 12 bar in A - D - E. Kinda boring unless you work other stuff into it, like pentatonic and blues scale, but it can really fill things out and add to the total. Different modes go with different types of music, but all are worked out of the major scale that goes with the respective mode. In the key of A... Dorian minor = G maj scale. Aeolian min. = C maj. sc. Phyrgian min = F maj sc. Mixoldian = D maj sc. All these different modes apply to all types of music, blues, jazz, swing, rock, spanish, heavy metal. Like I said, I still have to explore lydian & locrian, mostly for jazz I think.

Anyways, I wish someone would have strapped me to a chair and explained this to me YEARS ago, I'd be a much better player by now. I think it's worth the effort, may take a while though. I had to figure it out pretty much on my own with the help of a couple of jazz books. If you can't find a violin/fiddle player who knows this, find a guitar player.

Anyone else out there who can explain further and/or better, please do so... Thanks for listening.

bsed - Posted - 04/22/2010:  18:34:06

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This should be an interesting discussion for me.
We use modes in OT music. Tunes like Old Joe Clark and Pretty Little Dog or Cold Frosty Morning are called "modal". But I really couldn't tell you which modes these tunes are in. I've struggled to get a good grounding in this stuff for a long time, but I ain't made of teflon, so I can't get anything to "stick".

fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/22/2010:  19:54:21

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I had a Jeannie Ritchie dulcimer book years ago that explained modes pretty well using the white keys of the piano.
Maybe because of that, I'm very aware of the shift back and forth between Dorian and Mixolydian in Old Time fiddle tunes,
sometimes in the same tune.

I do something like you're describing on electric guitar, but in a very elemental way. I practice a lot alone in minor pentatonic, since it sounds better alone,
but I have little to no problem using the same scales over the relative major chords.
I can KIND OF transfer some of that to fiddle.... sometimes on a good day!!!

I'd like to be able to do more with modes though.

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Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/22/2010 19:55:27

bluesviolin - Posted - 04/22/2010:  21:19:48

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well... I'm learning something. After my last post I checked out Fresiatap's home page and found favourite styles of celtic & OT. I thought uh oh, maybe this doesn't really apply to fiddle styles. But now I find out from bsed & pogo that it does! Far out! Dorian & Mixolydian for OT eh? maybe I CAN learn some fiddle stuff after all. And yes, you can use 2 or 3 different modes for different parts of the same piece. I think that jazz players must go thru all 7 modes in the same song sometimes.

I also enjoyed Pogo's comment about major/minor pentatonic scales on guitar (which you can certainly adapt to fiddle). I also learned this trick on guitar many years ago. E min pent is the same as G maj pent. Doesn't matter which you call it. BUT this principal apply's excactly the same for say a blues scale. You can play the blues scale pattern over an E min blues, but if you play the same pattern (starting/ending & emphasizing different of course) over a G maj or G7 key, it "magically" turns the pattern into Swing, not blues anymore.

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Edited by - bluesviolin on 04/23/2010 06:59:33

mudbug - Posted - 05/25/2010:  07:38:53

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Take a tune like "Road to Lisdoonvarna". The key signature is D Maj., but it starts and ends with an E min. chord, and is listed as E Dorian. I thought E min. was the relative minor of G. What scale do you work out of on something like this?

Peghead - Posted - 05/25/2010:  07:46:10

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Mudbug - In the key of D, E is the dorian minor (second note of the scale) In the key of G, E is the aeolian minor (sixth note of the scale)

coelhoe - Posted - 05/25/2010:  08:03:17

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It seems to me that this thread is upside down. While many OT, Celtic and other trad tunes use modal scales. a person playing OT is not usually looking for other modal scales and variations to use in expanding performance possibilities the way a jazz or folk-rock or goth or pop player would.

There are many ways to visualize and remember the various modal patterns. Typically, they are referenced to the white keys of the piano, an octave pattern that can begin with each white key, each octave producing a unique scale that can then be abstracted to use in other keys. Not all of these scales are useful, in fact the ancient Greeks (who invented these scale ideas) banned at least one scale from children as being too erotic, and one or two others were kept unique for war music.

You can search the FHO. There has been a lot of discussion about modes over the last couple of years.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/25/2010:  11:20:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by coelhoe

It seems to me that this thread is upside down. While many OT, Celtic and other trad tunes use modal scales. a person playing OT is not usually looking for other modal scales and variations to use in expanding performance possibilities the way a jazz or folk-rock or goth or pop player would.

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Good point- while Old Time, Irish and Scottish fiddling do use modes,
because those styles are melody oriented, the information about the specific mode isn't nearly as important- in fact, if you just learn the notes used in the tune, you can ignore it!!! It's optional.

I find the main place in Old Time where the mode information is useful is in guitar backup- A mixolydian tunes get backed up with an A major, but A dorian tunes get backed up with an A minor chord. Since I often teach the guitarists in a jam how to back up the fiddle tune, it's a good thing I'm aware of that.

However, since I do play some blues on guitar, more modal awareness would be a good thing for me on guitar, and also on fiddle, because I'm trying to extend my blues playing to fiddle.

quote:

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There are many ways to visualize and remember the various modal patterns. Typically, they are referenced to the white keys of the piano, an octave pattern that can begin with each white key, each octave producing a unique scale that can then be abstracted to use in other keys. Not all of these scales are useful, in fact the ancient Greeks (who invented these scale ideas) banned at least one scale from children as being too erotic, and one or two others were kept unique for war music.

You can search the FHO. There has been a lot of discussion about modes over the last couple of years.

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Quite true... I only like the sounds of Dorian and Mixolydian, as well as Aeolian (normal minor scale) and Ionian (normal major scale)
Locrian, Phrygian, and Lydian are pretty strange, for sure!!!

I find the association with the piano white keys easy to get,
but the problem is that since I mostly play guitar and fiddle, the piano association
makes the info very theoretical with no practical application.
With the white key thing going on on piano, you CAN'T play a note outside of the mode,
but on guitar or fiddle, it's quite easy to do so, and there's the rub!
You have to program that selection into your brain.

Peghead - Posted - 05/25/2010:  11:43:45

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Dave -We talked about some stuff on modes a while back. It's in the theory section under pentatonic scales.

Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 05/26/2010:  19:51:38

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The flatted seven chord (NNS) is sometimes called a "Mountain Minor", in that it gives a minor sound without actually playing a minor chord. The "C" note in Ashoken Farewell is an example of this. What mode do you call this?

Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 05/26/2010:  21:52:37

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NNS stands for the Nashville Numbering System, a musicians language based on each diatonic scale, i. e. a flatted seven chord would be based on the seventh note of any scale. If it were a D scale the flatted seven chord would be a C (the seventh note of the D scale is C sharp, so when it is flatted it would be a C.

You can notice this in songs such as Cluck Old Hen, and other modal songs.
Use of this chord gives a "minor" sound to that part of the song, thus a "Mountain Minor"
It is heavily used in Celtic music.

If this is confusing, it's because I am confused sometimes. Where is my doctor?

Leon Grizzard - Posted - 05/27/2010:  05:46:32

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quote:

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Originally posted by Teufelhunden54

The flatted seven chord (NNS) is sometimes called a "Mountain Minor", in that it gives a minor sound without actually playing a minor chord. The "C" note in Ashoken Farewell is an example of this. What mode do you call this?

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Mixolydian

DougD - Posted - 05/27/2010:  06:20:29

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I'd agree with "mixolydian." However that's not the way I've heard the term "mountain minor" used. In my experience it usually refers to the banjo tuning gDGCD, where the third (B) on the second string is eliminated. Its often used to accompany "modal" tunes, but I don't think I've ever heard that term actually applied to the chords or modes themselves. There's some info here that seems good to me: richmondwebb.com/banjos.html

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Edited by - DougD on 05/27/2010 06:24:56

DougD - Posted - 05/27/2010:  11:02:29

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mudbug - I don't play "Road to Lisdoonvarna," but just because the key signature (the sharps or flats written to the left of the staff) is two sharps doesn't mean its necessarily in D major. It could be in A Mixolydian, or E Dorian (as in this case I guess) or in B minor (or B Aeolian, if you want to be fancy). Or some other, more obscure modes.

Its a little hard to discuss modes on the forum, because many people have come up with their own wacky ways of understanding them, and I'm no exception. But if you know the key signatures and scales of the common keys, its easy to figure out the common modal scales, with maybe a little help from fiddlepogo's keyboard suggestion. Mixolydian is the same as a major scale, except the seventh degree is lowered a half step - it still has a major third, and sounds like a major scale, just a little weird. Using the white keys of a piano, you would start on G and play the scale. To me, that's a G scale that has "lost" its F# - no sharps or flats. Thinking this way you can find the Mixolydian scale in any key. D "loses" its C# - just an F#. And A, which normally has three sharps, "loses" the G# for the seventh degree. So Mixolydian scales can be written with one less sharp (or one more flat, but we won't go there) than the major scale of that key.

The Dorian mode also has a lowered seventh, but also a lowered third, so it has a "minor" sound. With the white piano keys, you start on D for the Dorian mode - its like a D scale with no sharps - its like it's "lost" two sharps! Likewise, A Dorian can be written with just one sharp, F#, instead of the three sharps for A major. And E Dorian would have two sharps - its "lost" two compared to the four sharps of E major.

Aeolian has three flatted tones - the sixth degree is flatted in addition to the seventh and third. With the white keys you start on A, and so its an A scale with no sharps or flats - it's "lost" all three of its sharps. E Aeolian has just the F# (like G major) instead of the four in E major. It can be hard to tell Dorian from Aeolian (one of our "minor" scales) if that sixth tone isn't used. I believe Luther Strong's "Glory in the Meetinghouse" is in E Dorian, because in the high part he plays a C#, not C (I think), but its hard to tell.

This is probably clear as mud, but I can find the modal scales, at least in the sharp keys, by "losing" one for Mixolydian, two for Dorian, and three for Aeolian.

By the way, there are several "virtual" keyboards available online that are handy for this sort of thing, as well as determining the key of a piece. I'm using this one: sourceforge.net/projects/vmpk/ but there are others.

Eric Sprado - Posted - 06/04/2010:  22:09:27

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Oh my Oh my Oh my Oh my.You guys don't REALLY have all this junk running through your brains when you're playing???????I think most good fiddle players that I know just play the darned things...... I honestly tried to read and follow this thread and I got completely turned upside down. Re-read this thread and tell me the posts are clear... Sorry-not being mean here but HOLY SMOKE.....

slimman53 - Posted - 06/05/2010:  04:00:01

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Oh no! Playing fiddle really is ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/05/2010:  11:26:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Sprado

Oh my Oh my Oh my Oh my.You guys don't REALLY have all this junk running through your brains when you're playing???????I think most good fiddle players that I know just play the darned things...... I honestly tried to read and follow this thread and I got completely turned upside down. Re-read this thread and tell me the posts are clear... Sorry-not being mean here but HOLY SMOKE.....

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Well in a way it couldn't be simpler.

We're talking about playing the same eight notes,
white keys on the piano, or the eight notes in a major scale.
The only difference is what note the melodies start on, center around and come to rest on.
Since there are 7 notes available on the white keys where one isn't an octave.
a melody could start, center around, and come to rest on any one of the seven.

But since you have seven different possibilities, you have seven different names.
But you don't need the names of two, because they are already called major and minor.
You don't need the names of three more because nobody uses them, since they sound too weird.
That leaves two, mixolydian and dorian.
And if you don't ever play music that uses them,
you don't need those EITHER!!!

Fiddling west of the Mississippi mostly just plays tunes in a major scale.
The one or two that might get played that aren't major are so common that everybody should know them by now. (Old Joe Clark and Red Haired Boy)
So no, in that situation, you don't have to think about modes at all.
Just learn the melody and play.

But if you are trying to improvise and get a different sound from your improvisation
(and I am) it's useful.
I can improvise all day in pentatonic major and minor (black keys of the piano form these scales) But I'd like to do it in Dorian and Mixolydian too.
Unfortunately, I haven't completely figured it out yet, and I don't know any other way of "getting" them than by thinking about them. Once I fully "get" them, I'll just teach my fingers to play them,
and then I won't have to think about it anymore.

Also, Appalachian and Irish music have a LOT of tunes that are in these two non-standard scales. Of course you can just learn them and play them.
But there are situations where it would be useful to understand those two modal scales,
like if you were trying to play them on harmonica- you'd have to do something like
blues "cross harp" where you grab a harmonica that's labeled something different than the key you're playing in- only it's NOT the same harmonica you'd grab for blues "cross harp".. well, maybe one of them is (mixolydian, flat 7th) , but one isn't.
Dorian.
It's also useful if you're trying to explain the chords to the befuddled back-up guitarist.
If you know the tune is mixolydian, you can use all major chords, but scrambled around from what you'd expect.
If you know the tune is dorian, the main chord in the key will be changed to a minor chord.

Hey, here's an idea:

Just call Mixolydian a "Major flat 7th" scale.
Just call Dorian a "Minor sharp 6th" scale.

That's pretty simple.

Except then you have to teach your fingers to flatten or sharpen those notes.
But you already know the finger patterns, but they have a different key name.

So there are two ways of thinking about modes.
One is simpler for the head, but harder to do
(keep the same key name and sharpen or flatten the notes)
and one is harder on the head, but EASY to do
(find the modal scale that happens to use the SAME finger patterns
as a major scale you already know)

And one of the things that makes these modal discussions so complicated,
is that you have people talking about the same thing these two different ways in the same thread.

I'm sorry, on one hand, it's not rocket science,
but it's complicated enough that there's not a simple way to talk about it.
Or maybe there are TOO MANY different simple ways to talk about it.
Here's another!!!

Since almost all of these tunes get played in A in Old Time (in the sense that they start and end on the A note), you could distill it down to this:

If you use the same fingerings you use for a D major tune, but start and end on A,
you're playing the "Mixolydian" mode.
If you use the same fingerings you use for a G major tune, but start and end on A,
you're playing the "Dorian" mode.
If you use the same fingerings you use for a C major scale, but start and end on A,
it's a full blown "normal" Minor scale.

But then it only stays simple if you keep starting and ending on A.
Each key (in the sense of what note you start and end on)
has three more equivalents... which I guess means there are 33 possibilities!!!
But those 33 possibilities only use 11 different finger patterns.

Yup, it's complicated, and sometimes trying to simplify what's complicated
makes it even MORE complicated!!!

I think I just proved it!!!

Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 06/05/2010:  11:44:02

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AMEN.

bj - Posted - 06/05/2010:  14:46:08

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If you play the modes on a keyboard you can get a feel for how each one sounds. They're each distinctive. Then when you play a tune, you'll know what mode you're playing in. How simple is that? No rocket science needed, just a good set of ears and a good memory for sound, which is essential for playing even if you don't worry about the modes.

Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 06/06/2010:  20:27:00

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Doesn't a major flat 7th and a minor sharp 6th work out to the same note?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 06/06/2010:  22:08:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by Teufelhunden54

Doesn't a major flat 7th and a minor sharp 6th work out to the same note?

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On a keyboard in equal temperament. On a fiddle they are actually slightly different pitches.
They are also different because of context. By using one term or the other you are referring to 2 different harmonic structures. It's in the relationship between notes, not just the two, root and other. The use of a minor 6th sharp (augmented would perhaps better term than sharp) is quite complex theory in when and how you would use it.

Most fiddlers have no practical use for this information. Violinists maybe.

Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 06/07/2010:  09:34:14

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The musical knowledge of Alaska, bj, Doug D, and Pogo is nothing short of astounding. Myself, I don't understand all that I know. <G>

fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/07/2010:  11:29:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by Teufelhunden54

Doesn't a major flat 7th and a minor sharp 6th work out to the same note?

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No, they're not.

I checked it out on a keyboard, just to make sure I wasn't mistaken.
(anything I do with a number attached to it needs to be double checked!!!)
In D Dorian, played all on the white keys of the piano,
the sharpened 6th (compared to D minor) is a B, and the flattened 7th (compared to D major) is a C.
Those are right next to each other, a half step apart (no black key in between)
but are definitely NOT the same note.

BTW- I don't understand everything I know EITHER!!!

I got a little theory playing classical guitar, and picked up most of what I know about modes from Jeannie Ritchie's dulcimer book (I used to play dulcimer too).
But there are jazz guys who can totally SNOW me when it comes to modes...
in fact, the OP (original poster) probably can, easily!!