drdosido - Posted - 12/22/2009:  18:45:58

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(I can't find the post now about Groom's Tune/ Bonaparte's Retreat)

A tune titled Bonaparte's Retreat was part of a notebook of fiddle tunes noted down in 1842 and in the possession of Ruben Fisher of Richland County, Ohio. This is not the tune most people today associate with the title Bonaparte's Retreat.

T:Bonaparte's Retreat
M:C|
L:1/8
K:C
ABcB AGEG|cdec d2eg|aged cAGE|G2G2 G2EG|
ABcB AGEG|cdec d2eg|aged cAGE|A2A2 A2::
eg|aged cdef|g2ga g2eg|aged cAGE|G2GA G2EG|
ABcB AGEG|cdec d2eg|aged cAGE|A2A2 A2:|

However, it is very close to the tune Harvey Pappy Taylor of Effingham, Illinois played under the name Bonaparte's March.

I've posted of a video of the Indian Creek Delta Boys playing it as they learned it from Pappy. The Volo Bogtrotters also recorded it as a mandolin quartet.

youtube.com/watch?v=8YQHmcM5uZU

I've been putting links to videos of historically important and interesting performers in the video section of the Hangout. They are easier to browse at my YouTube channel

youtube.com/user/drdosido

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Edited by - drdosido on 12/22/2009 18:46:59

carlb - Posted - 12/23/2009:  05:57:46

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This tune is usually known under another title. The one for me is Bonaparte Crossing the Rocky Mountains
From the Fiddlers' Companion
ibiblio.org/fiddlers/

BONAPARTE CROSSING THE ALPS. AKA and see AKA and see “Battle of Waterloo,” "Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine [2]" (Irish), “Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies,” “Bonaparte’s March [3],” "Bonaparte's Retreat" (Pa.), “Napoleon Crossing the Alps [1],” "Oro, Welcome Home," "The Diamond," "Peter Gray" (Pa.). Irish (originally), Canadian, American; March. Canada, Prince Edward Island. A Dorian. Standard tuning. AABB. "The wide diffusion, extensive ramification and probable great age of this Irish air have been discussed already in the notes to other versions in this collection (see notes for 'Bonaparte's Retreat'). The present version must also represent a fairly antique development of the tune; it has a strongly impressed character of its own, and may readily be traced in Irish tradition. Though some of its variants serve for songs or dances, most of them have the same strong, martial swing as the one given here. Petrie unhesitatingly calls it 'an ancient clan march' (see Petrie, pp. 251, 356), although he does not assign it to any particular Irish sept. Joyce, on the other hand, declares it to ba a wedding march, or 'hauling#8209;home' song#8209;tune, since it was used in his boyhood in County Limerick to accompany the progress of a newly#8209;married couple home from church (see Joyce 1909, pp. 130, 131). Its frequently occurring Irish name, "Oro, 'Se do bheatha a'bhaile!' (Oro, Welcome Home), and two or three lines of verse quoted by Joyce, would be convincing were we not aware by this time of its protean variety of form and multiplicity of functions in the tradition. As a matter of fact, this version, like the ones already cited, goes under other names in Ireland beside 'Welcome Home'; while these words also befin the refrain to a Gaelic Jacobite song sometimes sung to it. We can only conclude that the statements of Petrie and Joyce were both partially correct: the tune, like other old and well known ones in our tradition, has been used for a number of purposes. In south western Pennsylvania this version is definitely a marching tune. Another local set is Bayard Coll. No. 352, from Greene County. When the volunteers from the communities of Pine Bank and Jollytown, in that county, went to camp at the time of the Civil War, they marched to the stately music of this tune as played by a 'martial band' (drums and fifes) made up of local folk musicians. Although this 'Welcome Home' form of the air is strongly individualized, it cannot be separated from the other sets, discussed under our Nos. 44#8209;48, to which its variants continually show resemblance and relation. Intermediate or transitional forms have been recorded, some of which were listed under Nos. 44#8209;48; others are referred below...A still more specialized march form of the 'Welcome Home' version goes in Irish tradition by the name of '(Fare Thee Well) Sweet Killaloe'. Variants are found in Joyce 1909, No. 824 and O'Neill's Irish Music, No. 100. A greatly simplified dance#8209;tune form of this 'Killaloe' version is also current in western Pennsylvania under ('floating') titles of 'Jennie Put the Kettle On' and '****** in the Woodpile'. Sets are in Bayard Coll., Nos. 21, 64. The American Veteran Fifer also has a variant, No. 122" (Bayard, 1944)."/ Bayard (1981) cites it as a member of the "Lazarus" tune family (identified in part by a subtonic cadence in the 1st and 3rd tune lines, with a tonic cadence in the 2nd and 4th tune lines; which is a feature of medieval music, he says).

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Perlman (1996) remarks that the tune was played by the regionally famous PEI fiddler Lem Jay on New Years’ Eve over Charlottetown (PEI) radio during the 1930's. Source for notated version: Johnny Morrissey (1913-1994, Newtown Cross and Vernon River, Queens County, Prince Edward Island) [Perlman].

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PRINTED SOURCES: Bayard (Hill Country Tunes), 1944; No. 89. Cole (1000 Fiddle Tunes), 1940; pg. 63 (appears as 'The Diamond'). The Feis Ceoil Collection, No. 67 (equals JIFSS, No. 15, pg. 18). Hannagan and Clandillon, 'Londubh and Chairn, No. 57 (Welcome Home Jacobite Song; and note mention ibid., p. 28, of a Tyrone version of the tune to the same piece). Hardings All#8209;Round Collection, No. 32. Henebry (Handbook), p. 148 (two sets); Hogg (Jacobite Relics), I, 3, II, 138. JIFSS, No. 2, p. 35; No. 12, p. 17; No. 15, pp. 18 (see above). Johnson (The Scots Musical Museum, edition of 1853) II, No. 298. Joyce (Old Irish Folk Music and Song), 1909, Nos. 275, 281, 729. Kennedy (Fiddlers Tune Book), vol. 2; pg. 7. Kennedy#8209;Fraser, 'From the Hebrides, pp. 96#8209;98. Linscott (Folk Songs of Old New England), 1939; pg. 69. Kerr (Merry Melodies), vol. 1; pg. 11. O'Neill's Irish Music, Nos. 178, 205. O'Neill (Music of Ireland: 1850 Melodies), Nos. 58, 1809 (same set as in O'Neill's Irish Music), and 1824. Perlman (The Fiddle Music of Prince Edward Island), 1996; pg. 99. Petrie, Nos. 926, 983, 1056 (to Welcome Home Jacobite Song), 1425. Roche Collection, vol. 2; No. 231. Scanlon, p. 63, 'Battle Call of the Fianna' (close to Petrie 983, 1425). C.J. Sharp (English Folk#8209;Chanteys), No. 7. Smith (The Scottish Minstrel), I, 106, 107, IV 58, 59. Stokoe & Bruce, 1886, Northumbian Minstrelsy, p. 183 (appears as "Cuckold Come Out o' the Amrey"). Green Linnett GLCD 1155, Martin Hayes - “Under the Moon” (1995).

X:1
T:Bonaparte Crossing the Alps
T:Napoleon Crossing the Alps
L:1/8
M:C|
K:G
cB|A2 AB AGEG|cd (3edc d2 (3e^fg|aged cAGE|G2 (3GGG G2 cB|
A2 AB AGEG|cd (3edc d2 (3e^fg|aged cAGE|A2 (3AAA A2:|
|:e2|aged cde^f|gega g3e|aged cAGE|G^FGA G2 cB|A2 AB AGEG|
cd (3edc d2 (3e^fg|aged cAGE|A2 (3AAA A2:|

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Edited by - carlb on 12/23/2009 06:00:17

OTJunky - Posted - 12/23/2009:  06:45:19

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Yup - I've always known it by the title "Bonaparte Crossing the Rocky Mountains". I think it's in the Fiddler's Fakebook with that title.

I always thought that was a pretty weird title since, as far as I know, Bonaparte never got within 6,000 miles of the Rocky Mountains but - then again - it's probably not even close to being the weirdest tune title in old time music.

Probably though I'll start referring to it as " Cuckold Come Out o' the Amrey" from now on...

--OTJ

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Edited by - OTJunky on 12/23/2009 06:50:07

drdosido - Posted - 12/23/2009:  17:09:18

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Well now the way I heard the story -- and someone may have it on tape to prove how faulty my memory is -- is that Marcus Martin played "Bonaparte Crossing the Rockies" for Alan Lomax. Lomax, with gently probing questions, aske Mr. Martin how that could be, since Napoleon never set foot on American soil. Mr. Martin's answer was,

"Well Mr. Lomax. Authorities differ."

drdosido - Posted - 12/23/2009:  17:38:01

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Here's another early setting of the tune, from 1832, also in a handwritten notebook. It belonged to John Fisher, a clarinet player from Crawfordsville, Indiana.

T:Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine
M:C
L:1/8
K:C
EF/G/|A2A>A AGEG|cdec d2ef/g/|aged cAGE|G2G>G G2EF/G/|
A2A>A AGEG|cdec d2ef/g/|aged cAGE|A2A>A A2:|
ef/g/|aged cdef|gega g2ef/g/|aged cAGE|G2G>G G2E>F/G/|
A2A>A AGEG|cdec d2ef/g/|aged cAGE|A2A>A A2:|

I haven't been able to study the Fiddler's Companion bibliography. But at first glance, I can't identify an instance of this melody associated with the name Bonaparte earlier than the two manuscript references I've given (Bonaparte's Retreat in 1842 and Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine in 1832). Perhaps someone could correct me.

Also, I think some worthy minds on the Fiddle List some years back demonstrated that the other melody we commonly refer to as Bonaparte's Retreat has not been dated to any year earlier than 1870 or so.

The first half of the 19th century, of course, had lots of Bonaparte tunes. Bonaparte's Advance, B's Defeat, B's Favorite, B's Grand March, B's Grave and numerous Marches. From that lot, perhaps mercifully, the tune presented in this thread is the one that has thrived in oral tradition for over a century and a half.

OTJunky - Posted - 12/23/2009:  18:25:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by drdosido

Also, I think some worthy minds on the Fiddle List some years back demonstrated that the other melody we commonly refer to as Bonaparte's Retreat has not been dated to any year earlier than 1870 or so.

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What's required to "date" a tune?

Does it require finding some written notation for it, or just a "mention" of it in some early writings?

Seems like that would be a lot like trying to prove a "negative" - meaning you could prove the tune was played at least as far back as the date of the written reference, but you'd have no way of knowing how many years the tune was played before that?

--OTJ

Eric Sprado - Posted - 12/23/2009:  21:25:31

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Just for the record: Strange as it may seem-I learned my version of Bonaparte's Retreat from an old Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey 78 on my dad's crank up Victrola. I can still hear those horns ROCKIN!!!!!!!!!!!! Still my favorite version. I play first part in G and the first part of second with a Dminor chord. ........ Eric Sprado

Tennessee Tom - Posted - 12/24/2009:  00:05:08

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Sprado

Just for the record: [pun intended?] Strange as it may seem-I learned my version of Bonaparte's Retreat from an old Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey 78 on my dad's crank up Victrola.

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Wow! I had a couple of old 78's floating around as a kid, but a Victrola!

Cheers,
Tom

drdosido - Posted - 12/24/2009:  07:28:30

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quote:

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What's required to "date" a tune?

Does it require finding some written notation for it, or just a "mention" of it in some early writings?

Seems like that would be a lot like trying to prove a "negative" - meaning you could prove the tune was played at least as far back as the date of the written reference, but you'd have no way of knowing how many years the tune was played before that?

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That's pretty much it. Finding datable written notation is proof that a specific tune existed as far back as ____. Dating is not the same as asserting an original. Finding written reference to a title is helpful. But we know from our own experience that titles are tricky and inconstant.

Most of what we think about tune origins is pure speculation. I'm sure you've heard some old-timer say something like "That tune is a thousand years old." And lovers of traditional or old-time music are quite fond of that idea of timelessness. Still, every tune had to have been made up by someone at some time. (This is true even of tunes that are clearly re-creations or creative blends of existing tune parts.)

Still, the historical record of fiddle music is quite rich. And if you spend some time digging into it, or traversing its breadth, you can get a feeling for what fiddlers through the ages were working with. Speculation can become informed by the trends of history, by customary patterns of human behavior, and by solid bits of historical evidence.

As a folklorist, I try to make informed conjectures (educated guesses) based on the documentable facts, an understanding of the big picture of music and dance history ('cause that's what fiddling has primarily been for), and a sharpened understanding of how aural tradition works. The latter, for me, has come through intense involvement with several elderly fiddlers who were born in the early 1910s, less intense but still substantial study of the repertoires and personal stories of several dozen other fiddlers born in the same era, give or take a decade, and my perusal of the rigorous work of fellow folklorists.

An important, but largely overlooked, contribution toward understanding tradition at the personal level are the notes Tom Carter and Blanton Owen wrote for their two lp set for Rounder called "Old Originals." Samuel Bayard is unrivaled in his efforts to connect the tunes he collected to the historical record. Too bad he was never able to systematize or synthesize his findings into a general history.

A comprehensive and critical narrative history of American fiddling has yet to be written. Maybe it will have to be part of a larger history of folk music. Or perhaps it needs to be a specialized history of music and dance.

fiddlecraver - Posted - 12/24/2009:  20:05:34

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dr, i know that tune you abc'd as Bonapartes Retreat also...

one of my favorites