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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/11377
Jaymom - Posted - 11/07/2009: 01:10:17
I just bought my first fiddle the other day and so far it has brought me a tremendous amount of joy. I cant afford lessons so im trying to teach myself by watching video's. I was trying to play a song yesterday afternoon when a neighbor dropped by. As he watched me he asked what key I was playing it in. I just stopped and stared at my fiddle. I didnt have a clue what key it was. What do you go by, how do you tell? What determines the key your playing in?
Thank you very much,
Harold
lrhamp - Posted - 11/07/2009: 02:33:22
playpiano.com/Articles/24-majorkeyof.htm
lrhamp "Figures Don't Lie But Liars Do Figure"
banjologist - Posted - 11/07/2009: 04:05:40
Great article, Irhamp. Another way to tell the "key" is - assuming you know the 'notation' note the tune's basic melody starts & finishes on, it'll usually be the root, or 3rd or 5th in it's accompaniment chord, which is the key. You need at least a basic learning tutor-book.- & if possible, get with a reasonably accomplished player; otherwise you're groping in the dark in a 3-year power-outage.
TomGlos - Posted - 11/07/2009: 05:00:20
Hell, you're a fiddler! It is a very important part of the tradition, leastways here on the sunrise side of the Atlantic, that fiddlers don't know what key they are playing in!!!
If you're asked what key a tune is in you "fast forward" through the tune, (that's going to date me soon, isn't it!)
F# but Cnat you're in G (though it may be cool to say "one sharp" to show you know about modes and minors!)
F# AND C# you're in D (same warning applies. You now say "two sharps")
Add G# to that and you're in A, (SWA, "three sharps")
A big give-away is what note the tune ends on. If it's not what you'd expect, you're probably in a minor or mode.
If a note is "unstable," sometimes sharp, sometimes not, you might well be in a minor or mode of the next note up from the one that changes.
There are other lovely keys too, but we're talking about fiddle tunes, I assume.
But remember, you're a fiddler! It is your duty not to care! You just play the tunes, ok?
(For the educators and technicians on this site, this post is not to be taken entirely seriously!)
Have a great November weekend. It's cold but sunny here in Gloucestershire, England.
Tom
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you're a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you've got their moccasins....
Edited by - TomGlos on 11/07/2009 05:03:59
OTJunky - Posted - 11/07/2009: 05:45:39
quote:Too bad, I liked it.
Originally posted by TomGlos
(For the educators and technicians on this site, this post is not to be taken entirely seriously!)...
M-D - Posted - 11/07/2009: 06:00:16
Indeed!
I most always know the key, owing to having taken a Music Theory 101 class in college, but our second fiddler rarely knows. He figures it's everybody else's job to know such things. He's the fiddler, dammit, and that should be enough!
As Tom said, "A big give-away is what note the tune ends on. If it's not what you'd expect, you're probably in a minor or mode." Some tunes, however, do not "resolve", that is they dont end on the root note of the key.
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Traditional Ozarks, Always
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Dick Hauser - Posted - 11/07/2009: 06:43:44
You might check the "Fiddler's Companion" website. It tells you which keys tunes are often played in. You should join a local fiddlers association and start asking questions.
In music, there are different types of scales. Standard major scales can easily be identified by musicians who play other instruments. But, other types of scales are harder to identify. Lots of really good fiddlers sometime don't really know which key a tune is played in.
You might start learning how to read the basics of reading musical notation and basic scale theory. I don't want to start another "ear vs. notation" war, but more knowledge about what you are doing never hurts. If you just play by yourself like I do, reading notation can help you learn new tunes. Nowadays there are lots of excellent books/CDs for new fiddlers. Brian Wicklund has a book/CD that is probably best for new fiddlers. It is "The American Fiddle Method", Volume 1.
Here I go again. Considering your situation, you would do yourself a BIG, BIG, favor if you picked up the Canadian fiddler Gordon Stobbe's DVD on bowing. It will help you understand the bowgrip and the mechanics of bowing. Bowing problems plague lots of fiddlers. Being able to watch and listen to someone explain how everything works will get your started right and save your lots of frustration later on. You don't have to know musical theory or read musical notation to use this DVD. It is about the mechanics of bowing and doesn't address scales or music.
gulfguy
Edited by - Dick Hauser on 11/07/2009 06:46:08
mudbug - Posted - 11/07/2009: 09:01:33
Hey, Harold! Welcome to the wonderfull world of fiddling and FHO.
Good advice here with learning to read basic notation. That'll help you with figuring out keys of written music.
For songs that you pull out of your memory or off CD/ radio, 9 times out of ten it's the last note ( as human beings, we find comfort when musical pieces resolve).
Kinda curious though, why he wanted to know the key. Was he going to go home and get his guitar or banjo, or whip out his harmonica?
Also know, that you are perfectly free to change a song to ANY key that you want to. If you picked out a song in D, but meet up with a horn player who insists on playing in E flat, you are free to do that. Or change it to G for a harmonica player who plays everything in G. Or stick to your own guns and insist that they change to the key that you learned it in.
Jaymom - Posted - 11/07/2009: 10:01:09
Thanks everyone.....
Mudbug....and thank you for hanging up my welcome sign. Appreciate it very much. I was trying to learn "The Tenn. Waltz" and had the first part down pretty good when my friend came walking over. He plays guitar and for some reason wanted to know what key I was playing in. I told him that I didnt know. I have since found a website called Folk of the Wood which helped me a lot. I still dont know what im doing but time will tell.
What I am afraid of it learning something wrong, such as a song in a weird key. Who is going to be able to accompany me on a guitar or any other instrument as far as that goes.
Anyway, ive come a long ways in just a few days and its been fun. Looking forward to many more to come.
Harold
TomGlos - Posted - 11/07/2009: 10:07:32
quote:
Originally posted by mudbug
For songs that you pull out of your memory or off CD/ radio, 9 times out of ten it's the last note ( as human beings, we find comfort when musical pieces resolve).
alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/07/2009: 14:24:42
The key is note that all the other notes revolve around; the note that will sound resolved like "home". It is not the note it starts on or ends on. 80%? of time it is the note it ends on.
If most of the strong beats (where you would probably clap along with) and melodic phrases forward or backward, seem to go from the open third string (D) to the second finger (high position) on the third string (F#) to the open second string (A); open second string (A) to the 3rd finger on the second string (D), the 3rd finger on the second string (D) to the 1st finger on the first string (F#); and the 1st finger on the first string (F#) to the 3rd finger on the first string (A). And you should notice that the third finger on the second string (D) and the open third string (also D) sound like home. (even if the melody doesn't end there) They call that the key of D. You wouldn't have to know all the other names to know tunes that use mostly those notes is D. Notice it is just three of the same name notes. It's not always which note is played the most.
It will use other notes, mainly two others, but they are just used in a secondary way. For this example, the first finger on the third string (E), the second finger on the second string (B), and the open first string (E). Sometimes they are just used as a connector note between those three main notes, in the middle of a phrase (kind of like conjunctions are used in language) Some times they are used in a strong way, a phrase will end on one of them, or be on a strong beat. Notice however that it creates a feeling of away from home, (yet somehow still related to home) But then they usually come back to "home". Those five notes and their relationship to each other represent the basis for a lot of fiddle tunes. (called pentatonic) So you can often identify what key by what five notes are used, IN CONJUNCTION with what feels like the home. Quite a few tunes will add one more note to make six notes, and then others add another to make seven notes. Again their use is in a secondary way to the first three, in similar ways as above, as connectors, or to go to a place that is not home, but still seems connected to it, notice the added note will be connected in phrases to one of the original three, the other added note is connected to different original one. Home still feels like home.
In the case of Tennessee Waltz, the tune starts on it's key name, and ends on it's key name. This is probably the most common, but it alone does not define the key. The next common is the tune that starts on it's second strongest note (a fifth, A in the key of D) which is the third most consonant sound between two notes (the first being a unison, the second being an octave) - followed by tunes that start on the next strongest, most consonant sound (the third, F# in the key of A) - so note it's usually one of those three from above. It can start with other notes however, so don't let that fool you. And it can end with other notes, (but notice it doesn't quite sound resolved). Again it's all about "home".
The other thing you will probably need to know (though some styles it's not important) is the mode. So not just key, but if it is major or minor. (other mode names are useful like dorian and mixolydian, but at the beginning just major and minor work fine) The example above it would be major. If you used the second finger low on the third string (F) but all the notes still revolve around the D sound, it is D Minor. The note D still sounds like home, but the whole flavor of the tune sounds different. It's not hard to quickly learn to hear the difference. The default is major, that is if someone says it's in the key of D, omitting the major/minor they generally mean major (not always) and add the word if it's minor.
This is a good place to start. You don't really need to know anything about the naming conventions to play. Some older fiddlers I don't think knew the names of all the notes; but they did know each different group or pattern of five (or 7) notes by key name. For most fiddle tunes you only need maybe 6 names. But naming helps in communicating, especially in situations non face to face situations, like in books, and over the web. So knowing the names of notes is a little easier than just referring to the third finger on the second string. You don't need to go so far as to taking and understanding a complete music theory class, as a matter of fact some of it can be quite daunting at first, and the way it is presented is quite confusing and sometimes misleading. Especially starting with scales can be quite misleading, not in my opinion a good place to start. That web link posted above is an example of not a good place to start, only makes sense if you already know a bit about music. All of that is just an analytical theoretical (based much on mathematical formulas, often not quite precise) way to explain why things sounds the way they do, why certain things sound good. As complicated as my explanation might seem, a music theory explanation is far more complex.
All you really need as a basis is your ears to tell you what sounds good, and what sounds like home. If you can't hear basics, mathematical formulas won't help much, or at least are a very round about way of doing things. Not saying music theory is bad, it's very useful if not essential for more advanced concepts, like composing (improvising being live composition) but it should be built on a solid foundation based on direct experience of the basics.
One other thing you should know with terminology. Fiddlers are often referring to the fingering and the relative relationship the fingering creates, not the exact pitch. So if you hear a recording, or even live fiddler and you identify it with a tuner or piano (say D flat) the fiddler might not have been playing in D flat, but rather D fingering. It has to do with how they tuned their fiddle to a reference point. You see it less so today because many use a tuner to establish an exact pitch, but not always. So the key is more of a relative thing, rather than exact to a piano or tuner using A=440.
As far as concern for;
"What I am afraid of it learning something wrong, such as a song in a weird key. Who is going to be able to accompany me on a guitar or any other instrument as far as that goes."
Don't be too worried about that. Songs and tunes are the melodic and rhythmic pattern, not what key they are in. Songs are most often not set in stone for key, but rather what the singer wants to do it in. However, while fiddle tunes don't have to be set in stone to key and still be the fiddle tune, they usually follow some conventions. One is to easily play with others there are agreed keys that the tunes sound good in and play easily in. And just playing by oneself you will find that tunes sound better or are easier to play in one key as opposed to another. Usually one of the simplest solution keys win out. Generally it can stay in first position, and your first and third fingers are almost always in the same standard position, only your second finger changes position.
If you can pick out the melody and it sounds right, then you are playing it right. If it is in a different key than what others want to play it in, then you just need to play the same melody with a different "home", requiring different fingering.
George
My friends tell me not to give up my day job - They know I'm unemployed, what are they telling me?
bj - Posted - 11/07/2009: 16:12:08
Whatever note you can play as a drone ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE TUNE and it sounds good, is the root note, and hence the key the tune is in. Most tunes do resolve on their root note, probably 19 or so out of 20, so most times if you just guess the last note of the tune as the key, you'll be right.
Even if you don't plan on ever reading notation (and it isn't really necessary for a fiddler) the Fiddler's Fakebook is still a good reference, since it'll give you the key the tune is usually played in and whether it's modal and what mode it's in, and the cross tuning if it's usually crosstuned. It'll also give your guitarist the right chords, not that it'll matter.
Don't worry about the guitarists. Even when they know the key they still get the chords wrong. 
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!
Me on the Web --
doneinstyle.com
wordpresscustomthemes.net
My inspiration:
pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Edited by - bj on 11/07/2009 16:27:11
lrhamp - Posted - 11/07/2009: 16:15:15
Well, here's my "down home "take" on keys". The best way to learn and recognize keys is to learn to strum an instrument while you are singing or even humming a song. Start with simple songs and play the associated chords----two or three chord songs. The chord that you play first with a song is also (usually) the KEY that the song is played in. Starting with this simple idea you will get the basics of keys. All the major keys are two frets apart except from B to C and E to F which are only one fret apart. With this knowledge you're 95 percent done with the knowledge you need about keys.
lrhamp "Figures Don't Lie But Liars Do Figure"
alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/07/2009: 16:49:32
quote:
Originally posted by bj
Whatever note you can play as a drone ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE TUNE and it sounds good, is the root note, and hence the key the tune is in. Most tunes do resolve on their root note, probably 19 or so out of 20, so most times if you just guess the last note of the tune as the key, you'll be right.
bj - Posted - 11/07/2009: 17:00:23
quote:
Secondly depending on the harmonic structure of the tune, one drone might not sound good all the way through, so you are causing a little confusion.
Ozarkian D.L. - Posted - 11/07/2009: 17:26:14
Soooo....clear as mud eh Jaymom ? Well, WE paddle tha same boat . I'z du'nt even unerstan tha terminology lil on tha meanings....iz they'a primer fer beginners fer us old codgers ? We'z too ole ta be concerned wit such triffilings Jaymom, les jus play our fiddle.
My .03 cents worth.....jus rosin yer bow & fiddle.
U.S.A.F. ? .........." Go Navy". LOL.
Edited by - Ozarkian D.L. on 11/18/2009 19:53:54
alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/07/2009: 17:37:28
The drone rule works for lots of OT tunes, and I love those tunes. In D, having the E note pitted against it can sound great either as a 2nd or as part of a V7 idea. Even sometimes the Tonic against a 7th I think sounds great in OT. Problem is, if you are not used to hearing that style, most folks cannot hear that as being consonant. It gets more complicated in listening with minor keys. In some ways the drone is just a harmonizing choice. Holding that drone changes the harmonic concept. Irish tunes in E minor, you hold that E against where the tune revolves around the D, F# and A notes it just sounds wrong to folks. Just against the A it sounds like a IV chord rather than the VII chord. Even going to something like a G chord concept, against the E drone would not give it a G major sound. None of this means the tune leaves the key. The tune remains in it's key. Not all fiddle tunes are old time. Other styles also rely on the harmonic structure to shift to a six, two or three minor chord. The drone will just confuse that.
So while I agree it sounds good in many OT tunes, it is not a "rule" and confuses the matter. Because telling someone the drone sounds good over all the tune, and they realize there are parts it doesn't sound good (to them) will just add to the confusion.
It's just not particularly a great way to define key. That drone "rule" to define key doesn't actually exist in music theory.
George
My friends tell me not to give up my day job - They know I'm unemployed, what are they telling me?
TomGlos - Posted - 11/08/2009: 05:41:27
quote:
Originally posted by Ozarkian D.L.
My .03 cents worth
lrhamp - Posted - 11/08/2009: 09:04:56
Right On, Tom. If a person knows NOTHING about a subject they should keep quiet. SO THERE------BUD.
lrhamp "Figures Don't Lie But Liars Do Figure"
OTJunky - Posted - 11/08/2009: 09:12:32
quote:I dunno - applying that rule's gonna make all our threads mighty short...
Originally posted by lrhamp
Right On, Tom. If a person knows NOTHING about a subject they should keep quiet. SO THERE------BUD.
Ozarkian D.L. - Posted - 11/08/2009: 10:19:48
Sooo....u'z all correct on tha subject matter. I've over-priced meself....& i'z understan why I'z mostly bare-foot as a child. . ( but )....
.
Aint it fun tho....
Edited by - Ozarkian D.L. on 11/08/2009 10:28:34
fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/08/2009: 17:31:50
quote:
Originally posted by M-D
As Tom said, "A big give-away is what note the tune ends on. If it's not what you'd expect, you're probably in a minor or mode." Some tunes, however, do not "resolve", that is they dont end on the root note of the key.
drzany - Posted - 11/08/2009: 18:49:12
Hi. I just got my new baby just over a week ago, and can see how it can become addictive. Is this an epidemic? lol
I found the most wonderful instructional book/cd combo on Amazon.com. It's called "Old Time Fiddle for the Complete Ignoramus" by Wayne Erbsen. So user friendly and humorous at the same time (laughing at oneself is essential I believe, during this phase). I bought it because it had a dozen 5-star customer reviews, and I read them all. First several pages are the basics about the fiddle, then he starts you out on D scale, followed by several tunes in that key, then he moves on to other scales, with a group of tunes for each. Various techniques are interspersed, and the CD incorporates examples of those variations as well. I would HIGHLY recommend it, because I'm having a lot of fun, learning tab (and notes if I want), and getting instant gratification...something I value when delving into something brand new and challenging. Just wanted to add my two cents as a fellow newbie.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/08/2009: 19:53:30
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogoquote:
Originally posted by M-D
As Tom said, "A big give-away is what note the tune ends on. If it's not what you'd expect, you're probably in a minor or mode." Some tunes, however, do not "resolve", that is they dont end on the root note of the key.
They are sometimes called "circular" melodies or tunes.
Two of them are "Wind that Shakes the Barley" and "Miss McLeod's Reel".
It's much more common in Scottish and Irish tunes than in Old Time.
Jaymom - Posted - 11/08/2009: 19:55:53
Thank you DRzany.....i just ordered my copy of it too. Appreciate this very much.
Harold
drzany - Posted - 11/08/2009: 20:10:14
That's great Harold. You will enjoy it. The tunes in the book are arranged according to scale. There are about 5 to 7 per scale, I think. So, I think it will help me learn what key a tune is in. I'm still in D scale, but on my third tune. I'm trying not to rush things. It's like as soon as I start having fun, I try to get too cute by half, and then it all falls apart...then I laugh at myself, and all is well again. :D He also teaches shuffles early on, which makes you feel like a REAL fiddle player...lol Much better than Twinkle Twinkle... ;D
FiddleJammer - Posted - 11/11/2009: 10:41:52
The article that was linked early on in this thread has a good summary of how a key is determined. Not by ear, but by the number of sharps or flats. There are folks who can tell by ear, but there will still be some pitfalls and puzzles, particularly where minors and modal are concerned for folks in this neck of the woods. I think because most ears are tuned to major scales in muck of the western north american world.
I find it a little overwhelming to try to chew on all possible combinations. To make it a little more palatable for beginners, I find it easier to get a good grasp on 4 major keys, most frequently played in the OT repertoire. As you become more familiar with these finger patterns, the minors and modal patterns are digestible. Klezmer and other parts of the world can be added at your level of interest. It can all be boiled down to finger patterns.
I think of the finger patterns in tablature language (index, middle, ring fingers, high or low), although I can read music and can see the patterns that way too.
Here's an exercise. You can sound out a scale "do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti, do". Think of a 'home' position for your fingers in tab as starting on an whole step from the nut on a fiddle. Then, each finger 'homed' on whole steps apart. Whole steps are about a knuckle, half steps are fingers touching, all depending on the size of your fingers and knuckles, of course. For these keys, all open strings are used when it's their turn in a scale. Then, these patterns for a particular key are like so...
Key / number of sharps / start a scale on X note / tab fingering
C - no sharps or flats; start a scale with the ring finger on the G string a low middle finger on the D string, low middle on the A string, low index on the E string.
G - one sharp - F; start a scale on the open G string; a high middle finger on the G string, a high middle finger on the D string, low middle on the A string, low middle on the E string.
D - two sharps: F, C; start a scale on the open D string; high middle on the D string, high middle on the A string, low middle on the E string.
A - three sharps: F, C, G; start a scale with the index finger on the G string; high ring on the G string, high ring on the D string, high middle on the A string, high middle on the E string,
It is a real stretch to try to describe this and understand this using words. A diagram makes it more clear, more quickly. You can generate your own diagrams here..studybass.com/tools/chord-scal...-printer/ Pick your isntrument, set your root note, ie. C, or G, or D, or A, choose your mode, ie. major, and look at the diagram. The finger patterns become more clear.
So....... if you're playing a happy sounding tune and you always use an open G string, a high middle finger on the G string, a high middle finger on the D string, a low middle on the A string, and a low middle on the E string..... you're playing in the key of G,
Also, probably why standard notation is well worth the effort to learn. :-)
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Henry George - Posted - 11/11/2009: 19:12:13
There are only 4 finger patterns which cover all the major scales and their modes and the order is very important because they connect to each other so to play on all 4 strings and or to shift up the string.
These patterns are called tetra chords; two identical tetra chords are needed to play a 1 octave major scale. The first pattern begins on the open string and is repeated on the next higher string to play the 8 notes of the major scale. The D string would be the best to begin with for ease of bowing and singing, and of course reading the notation. As well as learning these patterns singing sol-fa; doh, ra, me, fah, soh, la, te, doh, of the major scale will enable one to recognize the tonic note (home note) and will avoid confusion with minor keys and modes, hence the name Major. That song from The Sound of Music; Dow a Dear a Female Dear, teaches the major scale.
The scale consists of tones and semi-tones which are indicated….tones= O-1, semi-tones= 23.
Pattern 1.
0-1-23
Start on the D string and play the same pattern on the A string to play one octave of the D Major scale.
Also, this scale teaches the octave tunning/intonation from open string to 3rd finger on the next string, and the interval of the perfect 4th from open string to 3rd finger on the same string. Learn to hear these intervals.
D.0-1-23
A.0-1-23
Therefore, G string and D string = the G major scale and A to E = the A major scale.
Pattern 2.
3-0-12.
As you will notice the semi-tone is now between two other fingers; 12, instead of 23 as before. Find the 3rd finger note on the G string from pattern 1; 0-1-23 or by the perfect 4th from open G to the 3rd finger which is C, practise both.
3-0-12
3-0-12
This pattern uses 3 strings to play one octave. Beginning with the G string this pattern is the scale of C major, or starting from the D string the scale becomes G major. And from the A string, only half of D major can be played in first position.
Now we can connect patterns 1 and 2 to play 2 octaves of the G major scale………..
Starting on open G string play 1 octave…….
0-1-23
0-1-23.…. this last note becomes the first note of the next pattern……
3-0-12
3-0-12.…. two octaves of G major.
Pattern 3.
2-3-01
The position of the second finger in this pattern is in the same place on the finger board on all the strings as it is in pattern 2. It is called the low second finger and care must be taken not sound this scale as a minor scale which maybe heard upon arriving at the 3rd open string note, so always keep in mind the major sol-fa. Also the first finger is played in a new low/flat position on both strings.
2-3-01
2-3-01
Beginning on the G string this scale is Bb, on D string…F, on A only 6 notes of C major can be played.
Now we connect patterns 2 and 3 to play 2 octaves of the C major scale.
3-0-12
3-0-12...this last note becomes the first note of the next pattern.
2-3-01
2-3-44...all the 0 notes can be exchanged for the 4th finger and (44) indicates a little stretch with the 4th finger to arrive at the tonic note C.
Pattern 4.
1-2-30
The first finger is positioned as it was in finger pattern 1. This pattern presents an opportunity to practise with the 4th finger so as to play one octave on only 2 strings as before, but without open strings.
1-2-30
1-2-30.…or
1-2-34
1-2-34.…on 2 strings.
This scale is 1 octave in A major starting G string, E on the D string, B on the A string.
Connect patterns 4 and 1 will give 2 octaves of A major…..
1-2-30
1-2-30.….the last note becomes the first note in the next pattern,
0-1-23
0-1-23.
To play all the strings in the key of D major connect patterns 4, 1, and 2.…..
1-2-3[0].…(pattern 4)….the last note becomes the first note in the next pattern,
[0]-1-23...(pattern 1)
0-1-2[3].…(pattern 1)….the last note becomes the first note in the next pattern,
[3]-0-12.…(pattern 2)
The key notes ( home note ) are indicated thus…[0]
All the other scales can be determined in this manner but will require shifting down or up a semi-tone and the use of the 4th finger instead of the open strings because they are not part of those keys.
The modes use these same finger patterns but their home note is on a different note of the scale, for instance if your tune is played in this finger pattern on the D and A strings…….
0-1-23
0-1-23.…..and the home note may be here……
0-[1]-23
0-1-23.….this is the second mode derived from D major….E minor, Dorian mode. Each scale degree can be the home key of a mode, all of them are common except the modes on the 3rd, 4th and 7th degrees.
Once you can hear the home note, or if the tune finishes on the dominate note, and when you learn all the notes on the fiddle………….
0.1.2.3.4.….fingers on each string………..
G-A-BC-D
D-EF-G-A
A-BC-D-E
EF-G-A-B……..
That could be another method of determining the key of a tune. But I reckon the next time your neighbour drops by hopefully ‘e’ll bring ’iz axe wit ’im, and if he strums along to The Tennessee Waltz he should have no trouble finding the key because this tune begins on the tonic note.
Happy Fiddling.
Regards.
Henry.
I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.
Ozarkian D.L. - Posted - 11/12/2009: 09:45:56
Thnx. fiddle jammer & Henry for the last 2 post. It was informative & helpful for beginers & us older folk just starting music theory. I've ordered a primer on the subject.
David M. - Posted - 11/12/2009: 14:42:33
As stated above, a good rule of thumb is the ending note or chord. Not true for all tunes, but for most of them.
-------------------------------------------------------
"I wonder how the old folks are at home..."
Henry George - Posted - 11/12/2009: 14:51:59
Yeah, music theory is fun, but I reckon playing fiddle can be learnt without it, just with patterns.
Any key can be named when all the natural notes are learnt, there's only 5 on each string.
And the sharps and flats are between them.......G-A, either G# or Ab....same note.
Nothing between BC or EF.
Regards.
Henry.
I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.
FiddleJammer - Posted - 11/12/2009: 20:29:10
Henry... brilliant post. Thanks.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
EarlCameron - Posted - 12/06/2009: 19:47:42
First moving from C clockwise on the circle of fifths until the key of E major (The farthest I've ever seen a traditional tune "interpreted" on paper, as the three enharmonic key signatures B/Cb, F#/Gb, and C#/Db are almost never used in traditional music to my knowledge, and very rarely in general), and then moving from C Major counterclockwise. Major and Mixolydian keys will be written with capitalized letters, while Aeolian and Dorian keys will start with lowercase letters (besides the Bb dorian mode, because of a lack of an actual symbol for flat besides lowercase b )
C Major / a Aeolian / d Dorian / G Mixolydian ( 0 sharp )
G Major / e Aeolian / a Dorian / D Mixolydian ( 1 sharp ) F
D Major / b Aeolian / e Dorian / A Mixolydian ( 2 sharp ) F C
A Major / f# Aeolian / b Dorian / E Mixolydian ( 3 sharp ) F C G
E Major /c# aeolian / f# dorian / B Mixolydian(4 sharp ) F C G D
There are many patterns present in this table which are useful when attempting to memorize the keys and modes for example with no sharps, the A mode could be said to be Aeolian form. Add one sharp, and the A mode is now in dorian form, Add one more sharp, and now the A mode is Mixolydian. You can see it stair stepping down and to the right as we rotate clockwise around the circle of fifths.
Now the same table will be drawn rotating counter clockwise from C, also notice how the letter names of the notes and the first letter of the mode names themselves match for A and D in the key of C, These modes take their names from the beginning notes they were first applied to.
C Major / a Aeolian / d Dorian / G Mixolydian ( 0 flat )
F Major / d Aeolian / g Dorian / C Mixolydian ( 1 flat ) B
Bb Major / g Aeolian / c Dorian / F Mixolydian ( 2 flat ) B E
Eb Major / c Aeolian / f Dorian / Bb Mixolydian ( 3 flat ) B E A
Ab Major / f Aeolian / Bb Dorian / Eb Mixolydian ( 4 flat ) B E A D
Note how when we "move" counterclockwise on the circle the same mode patterns "move" backwards. With 0 flats the G mode is in Mixolydian form, with 1 flat, in Dorian form, 2 flats, in Aeolian form.
Two other patterns are worth pointing out, or more accurately it is one pattern interpreted in two ways. If we were to follow the ascension of sharps all the way through the enharmonic keys those sharps would occur in the order F C G D E A B, and if we follow the ascension of flats in the same fashion
(counterclockwise, in the opposite direction from C of course)
they would occur in the order of B E A D G C F, which is the same but backwards. This is really how the circle of fifths work, and I hope this is helpful to those who are trying to have a clearer picture of how keys are organized together
thesession.org/discussions/dis...ent478326
Mrbluegrassfiddler - Posted - 02/14/2010: 20:43:32
Often, the last note is the key of the tune (or song). So, if the tune ends on a G, then you are in the key of G. Or, such as in '' Half Past Four '' (see video library), the tune ends on a '' A '' note and the key is A. Also, often the ending note of the first phrase of a tune will tell you what key your are in.
transplant - Posted - 02/15/2010: 11:09:38
Morrison's Jig is another one of those oddball circular tunes that doesn't end on its tonic chord. The way I usually see it written, the ending of the second strain harmonizes with a D chord, looping back, leading into E minor at the beginning again. I think it is actuall in E dorian, or some such.
Lots of times I'd rather just give the number or sharps or flats in the key signature. Too many people get all confused when they hear the word "mixolydian" and think I'm trying to sound all fancy-pants. Even then, there are tunes written with a major (or sometimes minor) key sig, that use accidentals to put it into the real mode that it's in. I think they do that to avoid confusing the guitar players.
If anyone asks me what key I'm in, I usually say the key of three, or sometimes two, but seldom one and a half.
Henry George - Posted - 02/15/2010: 12:57:04
I think Morrison's does end on the tonic, it's just that the end is on the first note of the first bar rather than like a lot of tunes ending in the last bar.
If you don't want to sound like a fancy pants then just say... "major key, but play the 7th note flat"!. And I think you are correct about not confusing guitar players.
transplant - Posted - 02/15/2010: 13:20:00
If it is the last tune in a set, we always give Morrison's that final E minor chord, by way of what the English country dancers call a "reverence" or what Scottish country dancers call the chord, where partners acknowledge each other with a bow or curtsey.
Contra musicians here don't start with a chord the way the Scots do, though. Someone gives the band four potatoes, and off they go.
coelhoe - Posted - 02/15/2010: 14:00:05
Transplant: Wow! I have not heard any one refer to keys by the number of sharps or flats since the late '60s when I played with fiddlers for Grange dances in northern Idaho. Those fiddlers were all folks who had learned music, one way or another, before WW1, and it seemed to be an older form of vocabulary. Perhaps it was just local.
Edited by - coelhoe on 02/16/2010 07:29:33
transplant - Posted - 02/16/2010: 09:19:32
Hardly ever have to call out a key here-- folks generally either know a tune or sit back and listen. But thinking about it, I either go in terms of number of sharps or flats, or tonic & mode. My modal experience only includes major, minor, dorian and mixy, and a passing glance at D Freygish, that weird one with two flats and a sharp. That number thing was used in Ireland, in Dublin in 1904, according to a story I once read:
—Qui sdegno, Ben, said Father Cowley.
—No, Ben, Tom Kernan interfered. The Croppy Boy. Our native Doric.
—Ay do, Ben, Mr Dedalus said. Good men and true.
—Do, do, they begged in one.
I'll go. Here, Pat, return. Come. He came, he came, he did not stay. To me. How much?
—What key? Six sharps?
—F sharp major, Ben Dollard said.
Bob Cowley's outstretched talons griped the black deepsounding chords.
Edited by - transplant on 02/16/2010 09:25:49
coelhoe - Posted - 02/16/2010: 20:44:29
Sounds like Joyce's "Dubliner's" Key of F# Major? Is the author having us on?
transplant - Posted - 02/16/2010: 22:02:28
Maybe Ben, the bass-barreltone, and Father Cowley were having each other on. No idea. Black chords it would be, with that E sharp on a white key, snuggled up next to the tonic. It's joyce, all right, the section of Ulysses I think they call the Sirens.
Project Gutenberg has it for free download, if that sizzles your giblets. Thank goodness fiddlers mostly don't have to deal with six-sharp signatures, sez I.
bj - Posted - 02/17/2010: 05:17:29
Ah, Ulysses, the only book that ever actually USED the word "desuetude". Or was that Portrait of the Artist . . .
And to think how often our English Teachers used to yell at us for run on sentences.
transplant - Posted - 02/17/2010: 08:37:12
Yelled at? Oh dear. desuetude is one of those words that nobody uses any more. What does it mean?
I can't claim to understand Ulysses, but I have enjoyed getting lost in little bits of it at a time. Making someone read it all at once who doesn't want to is just mean.
bj - Posted - 02/17/2010: 19:12:16
Actually, the word "desuetude" is a word that is in a state of desuetude.
So you haven't read the last chapter? Skip ahead . . . hint-- really LOOK at the punctuation. It's amazing.
Oh, and I'm one of those peculiar people who read all of Joyce without ever having it assigned to me. I've also read Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and Faulkner. No, I wasn't an English Major, though I almost went that direction. Don't ask me why I did this, I really can't answer. Just like I can't answer why it is I fiddle.
transplant - Posted - 02/18/2010: 08:05:33
O I M familiar with Molly's solo at the end all right. My eyes have feasted on every page it, just not all in the course of a single day. (or week, or month) Must attend a Bloomsday ceremonial reading some time, fortified with mass quantities of Power's whisky and Guinness, to be taken as needed. My reading has been neglected in recent years... mosty limited to fun stuff like O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series of sea yarns, and Smith's Precious Ramotswe detective stories.
Strayed from the topic, we have... for me, it was falling in love with particular individual melodies that led to my study of keys and modes. If I am not smitten with a tune, I don't care about the key of it. Must say Tennessee Waltz has a lovable melody, though, no matter what key you put it in.
rastewart - Posted - 02/18/2010: 22:27:59
This is interesting stuff, and I am going to have to read through the posts at more leisure.
It's odd--I learned music in a very classical, read-the-notes way, as a pianist, singer, and trombonist, but with the fiddle it's been much more improvisational and by ear, and I'm pretty much at sea if you ask me what key I'm playing in.
~Rich
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