seewa9 - Posted - 08/09/2009:  07:08:05

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A few years ago I picked up a fiddle tune called Cherokee Shuffle. I know this is not a new tune for most but in the past 10 years or so there an old-time version, primarily in the Round Peak area, folks have been playing a version of Cherokee Shuffle that is unique to the old-time circle.

Cherokee Shuffle is known by most as a snappy swinging tune from, I assume, western climes. It consists of an "A" and a "B" part that are usually played two times each and usually the "B" part is longer than 32 beats. Thus, is considered a "square" tune as opposed to a "round" tune (meaning you can't formation dance to it, though I have heard a "round" version).

The old-time version that I have heard played is set up differently. The basic melody and timing are pretty much the same but the arrangement is different. The "A" part is pretty much the same. But, a "B" part is added which is essentially the "A" part played an occtave higher. Then a "C" part is played at the end either once or twice (usually once) that is "square".

This recently came up in an old-time jam in Oklahoma where the swing or contest version is popular. When asked, I did not know the source of it and I had no real reason for playing it the way I do excetpt that I heard it from other Round Peak fiddlers. This of course did not fly with the Eck Robertsites of Oklahoma and Texas.

Anyone have any thought or comments for the old-time version of Cherokee Shuffle. I have two recordings of ot. One is by Adam Hurt playing it on a gourd banjo. The other is by Jackie Burgess (when he was with Stanley County Boys), one of my favorite old-time fiddlers. I will try to attach the files.

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Bill See

seewa9 - Posted - 08/09/2009:  07:12:54

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I guess I wont upload the songs as I do not own the copyright. Unless Jackie or Adam are members and say it is okay. Perhaps someone knows them and could ask their permission.

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Bill See

musekatcher - Posted - 08/09/2009:  07:51:56

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Hi Bill, I found several folks playing this D tune, or using the title, but I got caught in about three different versions, and finally stopped trying to play it. There seems to be a Lost Indian version, a three part version, and a crooked version. I also find that the folk process is blurring the versions. Jackie Burgess is about as good a source as anyone, and I believe I've been enjoying his playing of it for several years now. I need to go back and listen to the Stanley County Boys version. I'd trust Adam Hurt's source too. A fine tune.

Jim Holland
Athens, AL

bj - Posted - 08/09/2009:  07:58:41

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Pure speculation on my part, and maybe veering a bit from the subject of the post, but one wonders, if this tune did originate in NC, if it dates from the time of the Trail of Tears.

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

coelhoe - Posted - 08/09/2009:  08:20:34

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There is discussion somewhere else on the FHO about "Cherokee Shuffle," but the tune as played around most of the country in the key of A has its origins traced specifically to the playing of a commercial fiddler in California in the 1950's. I can't recall the name, and The Fiddler's companion is off-line at the moment. But the tune was deliberate creation built off the older tune of "Lost Indian" with the second section starting on the IV chord, and maintaining the minor chord harmony. Dan Levenson has posted three versions of "Lost Indian," at least one of which is identified as "Cherokee Shuffle." But the title seems not older than the 1950's recording. At least since the 1930's, a four-beat rhythm with the accent on the first beat, along with a minor tonality have been associated with Native Americans, though neither musical element exists in Native American traditional music.

I first heard this tune on an album by a group from the San Francisco Bay area are called "The Arkansas Sheiks" from the mid-1970's. I was amazed at the dexterity of the banjo player on this tune, only to discover that the melody was played on a tenor banjo, not a five string.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

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Edited by - coelhoe on 08/09/2009 13:39:56

M-D - Posted - 08/09/2009:  08:37:04

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CHEROKEE SHUFFLE. Old-Time, Bluegrass; Breakdown. USA. A Major (Phillips) or D Major. Standard or ADAE. AAB (Brody): AABB (Phillips/1989): AABB' (Phillips/1994): AABC (Kuntz). Banjo player Howard Bursen identifies the tune as a West Coast version of "Lonesome Indian," and that it was derived from fiddler Tommy Magness who recorded the "Indian" tune in the 1930's. Along with "Lonesome Indian" (or "Lost Indian" [3] as it is sometimes known), the melody "Colored Aristocracy" bears some resemblance to "Cherokee Shuffle." Tommy Jackson is generally credited with transforming Magness's "Lonesome Indian" into "Cherokee Shuffle." There appears to be two versions of the tune in circulation, one "square" (with the 'A' and 'B' parts the same length) and one not. Sources for notated versions: Old Reliable String Band [Brody]; Liz Slade (Yorktown, New York) [Kuntz]. Brody (Fiddler's Fakebook), 1983; pg. 65. Kuntz, Private Collection. Phillips (Fiddlecase Tunebook), 1989; pg. 9. Phillips (Traditional American Fiddle Tunes), Vol. 1, 1994; pg. 47. Adelphi AD 2004, Delaware Water Gap- "String Band Music." Folk Legacy FSI-74, Howard Bursen - "Cider in the Kitchen" (1980). Folkways FA 2475, "Old Reliable String Band." Front Hall Records 05, Fennigs All Stars- "Saturday Night in the Provinces." Global Village Records C-302 - Snakelips - "New York City's 1st Annual String Band Contest - 1984." Rounder 0122, Norman Blake- "The Rising Fawn String Ensemble."

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M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

bj - Posted - 08/09/2009:  09:15:54

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So approximately 100 years later than the Trail of Tears. Hmm. Ibiblio is offline for me too,.but online for you, M-D? Wonder if there's another Clash of the Titans in progress.

http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/10...e-spri.shtml

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

M-D - Posted - 08/09/2009:  09:27:15

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Ibiblio was off line, but Ceolas wasn't.

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M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

DougD - Posted - 08/09/2009:  09:41:28

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Thanks for that handy tip, M-D! You learn something new every day (well not really, but sometimes).

bj - Does that article have anything to do with bowing patterns? Looks like it might to me!

I remember a discussion with an old timer about whether the tune was really called "Lost Indian" or "Lonesome Indian." Answer - "Well if he's lost, he'd be lonesome too wouldn't he?"

DougD - Posted - 08/09/2009:  09:56:27

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BTW, bj - Walker Calhoun, of the Eastern Band of Cherokee (and a banjo player) sings a song he says was sung on the trail of tears. I can't seem to find it online, but I think this is the song, a Cherokee version of "Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUPkSGhcw1k

bj - Posted - 08/09/2009:  09:59:02

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quote:

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bj - Does that article have anything to do with bowing patterns? Looks like it might to me!

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If it does, they're playing a mighty big fiddle . . . and it gives new meaning to the term "shuffle".

M-D, would you please post a link?

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

seewa9 - Posted - 08/09/2009:  10:09:13

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I would like to amend my original description of square verses round as I mispoke. "square" and "round" are used interchangably. Square meaning the A and B part are the same lengh. Round having the same concept that both parts meet smoothly after 32 beats each. I meant to say "crooked" meaning one or more of the parts is longer than another.

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Bill See

DougD - Posted - 08/09/2009:  10:15:39

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bj - M-D might be napping: http://www.ceolas.org/tunes/fc/

Its a little different access, because the "search" works, which I've never had any luck with at ibiblio, but I don't think you can browse it.

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Edited by - DougD on 08/09/2009 10:17:09

bj - Posted - 08/09/2009:  11:26:30

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Thanks Doug. That Cherokee tune was very haunting, btw. And it reminded me of the couple days I spent in the company of an ancient Cherokee couple in Sallisaw Oklahoma, back in the early 70's. They gave me the crash course in their history, and I got to tour Sequoia's cabin.

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

M-D - Posted - 08/09/2009:  11:32:28

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Yep, that's the link.

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M-D

Traditional Ozarks, Always

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield