forestabri - Posted - 03/11/2009:  18:18:43

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Anyone have any experience with these? They are on sale and the site says you can install them yourself by just pressing them into place, like a regular peg.

International Violin has them:
internationalviolin.com/item_d...ode=775+S

Thanks,

Brian

M-D - Posted - 03/11/2009:  18:33:15

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I'd not heard of these until I saw the mail-out flyer. Be interested to hear of others' experiences/opinions, too.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Old-Time, All the Time

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

whigski - Posted - 03/11/2009:  18:44:05

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Consider the consequences if the peg holes are not uniform. If you are going to be picky about the results, you might let someone who has used a peg hole reamer before install them. Disclaimer: I have no experience with these pegs. Good luck! --Bill

woodwiz - Posted - 03/11/2009:  19:01:45

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I have a couple of sets. I was a little underwhelmed. They seem to work OK, but they are a little notchy and the 8:1 gear ration takes a LOT of turns when you change strings. I got them thinking I would put them on our five-strings (no need to match up lefts and rights), but went back to Perfection Pegs.

Michael R

kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford

forestabri - Posted - 03/11/2009:  23:29:22

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Michael, what do you mean by "notchy"? As in not turning smoothly? I'd like to take off the fine tuners on my tailpiece in an attempt to mellow out the tone. Do you think these would work for that?

Brian

bosco - Posted - 03/12/2009:  01:12:05

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From the description of the link, it says "simply pressing it into the pegbox just like any ordinary peg. " but I don't find "you can install them yourself ".
It might need professionally fit just like "any ordinary peg".
Bosco

Konnichiwa, arigato, sayonara

woodwiz - Posted - 03/12/2009:  05:37:09

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quote:

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Originally posted by forestabri

Michael, what do you mean by "notchy"? As in not turning smoothly? I'd like to take off the fine tuners on my tailpiece in an attempt to mellow out the tone. Do you think these would work for that?

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The ones I got feel rough when I turn them. If you use Perfection Pegs, or Wittner tuners, you can set your afterlength properly, which may give you more volume and a tiny bit better sound. "mellowing out" the tone is more heavily influenced by choice of strings, bow technique, sound post fit and location, and bridge shape, in roughly that order.

I like geared pegs very much, but my first choice would be Perfection Pegs, second would be Wittners. They seem OK, just not to my preference.

BOTH types need some skill and a peghole reamer to install, unless you just get lucky.

Michael R

kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford

SMDTMTL - Posted - 03/12/2009:  06:38:38

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I have three fiddles and three sets of Perfections. Very happy with the Perfections..
Steve

forestabri - Posted - 03/12/2009:  10:27:48

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Thanks for the replies. No luthiers for many many miles, so no planetary pegs for me! Maybe on a future instrument that warrants the expense.

I'm now thinking of putting on a Wittner Ultra with fine tuners and some Thomastic Dominant strings, and see how that works. This is all going on a Friedrich August Glass Stainer copy that I just purchased from Luke Mercier in Ontario Canada. He says to learn to tune with the friction pegs holding it in the playing position... I can get it within a few cents on the G and D, and it has fine tuners on the A and E which puts the string end pretty close to the bridge.

So I'm thinking a Wittner with built in tuners would be better (yes/no?), and the perlon strings would mellow it a little (yes/no?). I know perlon core is less durable than steel and more money but I want to see if there is much difference.

Anyone have a preference for Wittner composite tailpieces over aluminum or does it matter?

Your help and advice is very much appreciated,


Brian

kubasa - Posted - 03/12/2009:  13:47:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by forestabri



Anyone have a preference for Wittner composite tailpieces over aluminum or does it matter?

Your help and advice is very much appreciated,


Brian

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I tried a Wittner composite and and the really expensive metal one that is on the market (sorry, can't remember the brand) and I personally didn't notice a difference in sound. I stuck with the Wittner because of the weight of the metal tailpiece. Fine tuners worked great in both of them.

woodwiz - Posted - 03/12/2009:  18:10:37

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If you can't do planetary pegs, the Wittner composite tailpiece is a very good choice, IMO. Even with Perfection Pegs, I use a Wittner composite tailpiece without the fine tuners.

Michael R

kcstrings.com
"Together, we create"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford

swampash - Posted - 03/27/2009:  17:56:56

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I have used 4 sets of perfection and one set of wittner. I bought three sets of the wittner and I don't think I will recommend them to you. I have e-mailed wittner but no reply. the problem is the material (Delrin) is slippery by design and won't grip the peg hole. If you cut undersized holes for excessively tight fit you might crack the scroll. The perfection are glued in (but you might not have to if you think it through carefully). The wittner are not supposed to be glued in but I will probably have to so that I may get some use out of them. I might try to thread the wittners like the perfection are threaded to dig into the wood. But if you aren't a devout tinkerer, have little patience and if wittner won't supply a decent solution, which I will post as soon as I get one... don't buy the Wittner! And yes the wittner do click as if dropping into micro detents. It is not a proper thing to do! I have found the pitch I need is often In between clicks and there is not a darn thing you can do about it.

tiquose - Posted - 03/27/2009:  18:33:18

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I'm getting planetary tuners installed by a luthier. He gave me the choice between Wittners and Perfections, saying that he felt that they were similar in quality but a little different in action and installation. He said the Wittners might be of slightly better quality.

Wittners require a very tight friction fit, while the Perfections are threaded. Wittners have that wee bumpy feel as the innards engage, Perfections don't. It is not anything wrong with the Wittners, just a characteristic of the mechanism. When I tried an instrument fitted with Wittners I thought that the action was very easy and pleasant, with the bumpiness kind of reassuring like the feel of the road when you're driving.

The only reasons I had for choosing Perfections were (1) the threaded fit, which subjectively seemed a better choice in a climate with abrupt humidity changes, and (2) because I'd heard so much about them. Next time I have planetary tuners installed I might choose Wittners instead.

Janet
"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back." -my grandmother, Bertha Morgan Nelson

swampash - Posted - 04/04/2009:  12:11:16

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One of the great benefits of these new mechanical marvels is to remove the fine tuners from the tailpiece. The distance from the tailpiece fret and the bridge is supposed to be around 55mm. Also the weight and the metallic connection is a deviation from the ideal. If you use these new tuners please try removing your tailpiece bling and be liberated! So far no response from Wittner about the slipping and the detent-tuning style. If you have a good enough ear you will likely become frustrated with it wanting to drop in just shy of the frequency you need. I have two new in the box sets of the Wittners if someone want to make an offer.

lukemercier - Posted - 04/20/2009:  22:38:04

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Hi Brian,

I feel strongly that Perlon strings would surely get rid of any harsh quality to the sound. I think the sound achieved on the sample recording I sent you was an authentic sound comparable to the old Black Diamond sound. My personal preference is Perlon as they are consistently reliable. They will add quality and depth to the sound.
As for the tailpiece, the one currently on it is more in keeping with the authenticity of the fiddle not to say that it cannot be changed.
The distance from the back of the bridge to the point of string contact on the tailpiece should be 1/6th of the overall string length. If you pluck the open D string followed by a pluck of the G string behind the bridge, there should be a one octave interval. The same goes for the open A string in front of the bridge plucked against the D string behind the bridge. Adding adjusters to a tailpiece for the G and D strings will throw this intonation off. The E and A strings are not quite as important with this test. Closer attention to the intonation for the G and D are more likely to help the instrument ring true within itself resulting in a longer sustain, warmth, depth and ring. Most classical players will have one or two adjusters.

Installing a Wittner Ultra would be a perfect solution for both ease of fine tuning and intonation provided the tail gut is set to the correct length.
In my experience, tightening the fasteners until the tailpiece just barely clears the saddle (1/16") will do the trick most of the time. Then, cut the excess gut about 1/8" past the base of the nut after you've done the pluck at concert pitch. (do not melt the ends of the gut as you will weaken the remaining threads)
You may have to adjust the length a couple of times before you get it perfectly in tune.

You will also have to be mindful of the bridge position.(Careful it doesn't tip forward)
Most violins sound their best with a string length of 328mm measuring from the back of the nut to the top of the bridge. This length is also consistently comfortable for most players however some prefer 326mm or even 330mm. The measurement for the diapason (distance from the belly edge at side of neck root to the inside treble f hole knick in line with the center of the bridge foot) is usually 195 mm. The knick serves as a marker for where the bridge should stand. I don't have a note of these measurements from your fiddle.
Bridge position is often determined by a combination of measurements such as the neck length, diapason and string length. I would be happy to walk you through any of this over the telephone.

When tightening the pegs, be mindful that the strings will want to pull the bridge forward so it will need to be tipped back slightly so that the feet are making contact at the front and back of the bridge as you bring the tension up to concert pitch. This adjustment is made by anchoring your left thumb toward the top/front of the bridge as though to push it back while the thumb of your right hand provides a counter leverage. It may be scary at first so you may want to slacken the strings a little to practice this procedure.

Fine tuners -

Over time, the adjusters will become harder to tune. Never oil your tuners when they become hard to turn as a result of rosin build up or it will turn into varnish. Simply remove the screw, drag it across dry bar soap and reinstall. If that doesn't work, dunk the tuners in alcohol for about 5 min. and clean with a toothbrush. Then soap and reinstall.

I hope you've found some of this information useful. If you have any questions give me a call.

Luke
Luke Mercier Handmade Violins & Banjo

forestabri - Posted - 04/22/2009:  21:55:03

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Thanks very much Luke. I did put Dominant on the fiddle, mediums with a wound E string. I also put a WIttner fine tuner tailpiece on it. I was very careful to mark where the bridge was with tape. I also made sure it was not leaning forward when I tuned it. When I installed the new tailpiece I did as you said and tightened it so it is close to the end. Do I really need to cut off the excess tailgut? I'm not sure what you mean about adjusting the tailgut length to get it in tune. maybe I should call you?

Brian

lukemercier - Posted - 04/23/2009:  06:28:53

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Hi Brian,

Trimming off the excess tailgut will prevent it from rattling against the belly. If you give me a call I'll be more than happy to walk you through it.
Are you happier with the sound of the Perlon strings?

Luke

musekatcher - Posted - 10/28/2009:  12:45:57

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I just installed a set of Wittner Finetune pegs. Compared to the Perfection pegs I've installed, here are the pluses and minuses I observed:

The 8:1 ratio is nice compared to the 2:1 of the Perfections especially for steel and composite core strings, but they do have detents, described above as "bumpy". I'm not sure about having a finite set of notches to tune with.

They aren't threaded, and they do just push in like a normal peg which is an installation advantage. However, they are quite slippery and require a bit force to prevent spinning at full string tension. Probably no more than a poor set of pegs. I solved this problem by gluing some craft paper with cynoacrylate to the Finetune barrel, and trimming so its not visable after installation.

Perfection pegs have Aluminum barrels, where the Finetune has Delrin, so the Finetunes are lighter and make a better replacement weight-wise for standard ebony pegs.

The Perfection pegs have a friction lock system, that increases as you push in on the button, and decreases as you pull out. This allows a "free spin" mode when installing or removing strings, and a lock mode to prevent back slipping at full tension. The Wittner doesn't need this feature, probably due to the 8:1 gear ratio, which is an advantage. No inward or outward force is necessary making them really easy to operate.

There were some other things I liked better about the Perfection pegs. For this delicate application, I liked having the "push-in only" installation, and wanted to avoid the friction lock feature on the Perfections, so the Wittner Finetune was the best choice.

Jim Holland
Athens, AL

tiquose - Posted - 10/29/2009:  10:02:50

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Thanks, Jim. It's good to have feedback from someone who has used both brands.

Janet
"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back." -my grandmother, Bertha Morgan Nelson

bosco - Posted - 10/29/2009:  16:41:33

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Yeah, thanx Jim. I'll try Whittner on my next fiddle.
Bosco

Konnichiwa, arigato, sayonara

DougD - Posted - 10/29/2009:  17:35:59

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Jim, according to all the specs I've seen, the Perfection/Pegheds are 4:1 gear ratio, not 2:1. Thats what most "planet" type pegs are.

musekatcher - Posted - 12/03/2009:  10:52:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Jim, according to all the specs I've seen, the Perfection/Pegheds are 4:1 gear ratio, not 2:1. Thats what most "planet" type pegs are.

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Thanks -I humbly stand corrected. I must have been in pre-war banjo-tuner mode.