Bob on Delmarva - Posted - 05/29/2016:  15:58:52

The term gypsy jazz is often heard but I wonder if this includes the traditional music played around the camp fires of the traveling people themselves. Does anyone have recommendations as to where to hear examples of this music in its true form?

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/29/2016:  17:06:54

Maybe these guys a a bit slick, and they have heard a few jazz tunes,  but here's some pretty genuine stuff.

youtube.com/watch?v=pT4IufMeyYA

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/29/2016:  17:17:05

Here's another.  More like the stutf I'm used to hearing.

youtube.com/watch?v=X3zcaoHNMTU

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/29/2016:  22:52:43

Check out the film "Latcho Drom" youtube.com/watch?v=AUz9NgtgneM

Swing - Posted - 05/30/2016:  03:40:15

There are lots of resources on line, here is one that your can search through for fun    djangobooks.com



Play Happy



Swing

DavidM - Posted - 05/30/2016:  04:51:40

I am a great believer in the Book-CD learning method, at  least as an introduction to a genre. Mary Ann Harbar's publication is a good place to start familiarising one's self with Gypsy violin. amazon.com/Bays-Gypsy-Violin-M...78666570X

Bob on Delmarva - Posted - 05/30/2016:  17:33:55

Interesting links thanks for the recommendations.
Bob

bluesmode - Posted - 05/30/2016:  22:10:00

I will hafta check out some of these links also (it's a bit late right now) I really like the more traditional Gypsy Violin. I only know a couple of tunes, but they are among the more difficult things that I do. One is called 'Sorrow Sunday' but I don't know the name of the other one. they both involve those 'Leaps of Faith' where you take a jump from the 1st position up to around the 6th. 

Thanks for posting this topic.

stet - Posted - 05/31/2016:  05:32:29

In my opinion, various composers and musicians usually enrich their music with the musical modes of the traditional music of other people and especially from the Arabs, the Slavic and other East people, because they want to present something new to the audience.

They keep the eastern music but they change the lyrics, so, what exactly is gypsy music or what exactly is traditional music, is a very big issue.

In this case, I wonder if new stuff, is always good stuff.

DavidM - Posted - 05/31/2016:  14:36:16

Check out Sarah Chang playing Pablo Sarasate's Gypsy Air. Sarasate was Spanish and drew on gypsy music to a great extent. The main theme which appears about half way through is beautifully moving. And Chang's technique is flawless.

youtube.com/watch?v=Q8s5SZSS1tI

bluesviolin - Posted - 05/31/2016:  20:50:46

youtube.com/watch?v=dEVFN71MEGU

does anyone here play some Gypsy tunes? Besides the two I mentioned, I tried to learn the Gypsy tune from The Red Violin from this tutorial. I put quite a bit of time into it and came very close. the 7/8 time was quite difficult for me, sometimes I would find that 7/8 groove and sometimes I couldn't. But I had all the notes... there was one shift leading into a quick run that I couldn't do fast enough.

anyways, I finally gave up on it.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/31/2016:  21:42:02

i think i may have another attempt at one or two now i'm a bit more comfortable playing in higher positions,i haven't attempted much "Eastern European" music, when i did i found it tough going

DavidM - Posted - 05/31/2016:  23:19:44

I have not had any success with gypsy music, but I didn't try very hard either. I felt somewhat overwhelmed by it. 

quietglow - Posted - 06/01/2016:  07:39:48

I just got back from a trip to Budapest and was totally blown away by the fiddling I heard there. Most of it is either influenced by or is actually Roma (gypsy). I picked up this book to try to start learning some:

amazon.com/HUNGARIAN-FIDDLE-TU...ntries*=0

As several people have noted, it's tough stuff. It seems that it's a point of pride to play wicked hard/fast stuff in this tradition. That said, I've learned a couple of the easier tunes and they definitely have a sound that feels eastern european. Lots of accidentals and keys other than D and G. Also, there's this odd trill thing you do that's not quite vibrato that really gypsy-s it up. Def recommend the book.

edit: I just reread what I wrote and I remembered that actually the trill thing is frowned upon by the gypsys as being coarse and kinda country bumpkiny. So maybe it would be better to say it makes the tunes sound very eastern euro.

Edited by - quietglow on 06/01/2016 07:44:35

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 06/01/2016:  10:52:42

quietglow -- I heard some outstanding fiddling in Budapest, too.  Food wasn't bad, either.  The best street fiddling I've ever heard, though, was in Prague.

As for my own experiments in Gypsy/Eastern European fiddling, I pretty much just play tunes and riffs that have made a home in my head.  I can't play fast, so I play 'em slow.  It doesn't hurt that if you can get jiggy with the idea of fingering the notes a half step above the open note you're already half way there.  Old Time fiddlers, give it a try!  Soon you'll be drinking vodka and eating borscht.  One tune I've been working on more than a little is the opening melody in Castelnuovo-Tedesco's Second Violin Concerto.  Heady stuff.

 

buckhenry - Posted - 06/01/2016:  14:45:55

The Hungarian Gypsy Orchestra came to my town many years ago, I did'nt go to any concerts but I recorded them from the TV. I transcribed many of those tunes and tunes from other recordings. I lost count of how many I memorized but I got plenty left to work on. And my repertoire will consist mainly of these tunes when I go busking in my retirement....soon. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 06/01/2016:  19:39:55

here's a visual

Violin Hungarian Minor Fingerboards

bluesmode - Posted - 06/01/2016:  22:03:08

here is the Gypsy scale as demonstrated by First Officer Spock.

half step - whole step - half step. 

Spock

buckhenry - Posted - 06/01/2016:  22:28:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

here is the Gypsy scale as demonstrated by First Officer Spock.

half step - whole step - half step. 

 

---

It actually looks more like .........semi-tone...'tone and a half'.....semi-tone.....

quietglow - Posted - 06/02/2016:  07:45:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

 

quietglow -- I heard some outstanding fiddling in Budapest, too.  Food wasn't bad, either.  The best street fiddling I've ever heard, though, was in Prague.

---

I am probably heavily biased since I'm hungarian (my dad came over in 1956) but I also thought the food was fantastic. I grew up eating some of the dishes so I knew what to head for, but I was surprised that our best meals were street food. The buda-dog, basically a kilbasz sausage on a bun with lettuce, toms, mustard and mayo, was life changing.

We're going back in October, and this time I am going to see if I can hunt up a hugarian fiddle to bring back. I didn't have time to look on this last trip, but budapest has a whole bunch of makers and apparently has for a long time. 

bluesmode - Posted - 06/02/2016:  17:21:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by FacePalm

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

here is the Gypsy scale as demonstrated by First Officer Spock.

half step - whole step - half step. 

 

---

It actually looks more like .........semi-tone...'tone and a half'.....semi-tone.....

---

Ok, it must be the Vulcan scale then.

bluesmode - Posted - 06/08/2016:  19:54:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 >>'Leaps of Faith' where you take a jump<<

---

@FacePalm: Somewhat off topic but Somewhat related. In another thread you were talking about hearing the note in your head before making the jump. Previously I've just tried to 'feel' the interval, but while busking today, I was trying out a new jump for a high ending to the theme from The Godfather, from 1st finger, F# note E string to 3rd finger, D note, E string.  and I try not to look directly at the string, use peripheral vision.

as you say, hearing the note in your head definitely helped.

so.... thanks for the Tip! 

Dick Hauser - Posted - 06/09/2016:  08:46:08

I can't tell the difference between a Klezmer" tune and a "Gypsy" tune. To my untrained ear, Patti Kusturok's Youtube video where she plays "Bluegrass in the Backwoods" has a "Gypsy" flavor.

Swing - Posted - 06/09/2016:  10:15:35

In some ways there is little difference between Klezmer and Gypsy, generally speaking.  Much of the music started in the same geographic areas and developed culturally. Also, the music itself both use a lot of minor shifts and keys.  While Klezmer became a more urban genre and incorporated a wider range of instruments the gypsy music became a medium of improvisation.   These are general terms, thank goodness that both are surviving and maybe growing.



Play Happy



Swing

bluesmode - Posted - 06/09/2016:  20:38:14

The Klezmer & Gypsy scales are quite different.

The Klezmer (or otherwise known simply as the Jewish scale) is C Db E F G Ab Bb (C) you can pick out  Hava Nagila pretty easy with these notes.

The Hungarian Gypsy scale is C D Eb F# G Bb B (C)

Personally, I like the Gypsy scale... sounds much more...umm....Gypsy. 

ChickenMan - Posted - 06/10/2016:  04:33:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

The Klezmer & Gypsy scales are quite different.

The Klezmer (or otherwise known simply as the Jewish scale) is C Db E F G Ab Bb (C) you can pick out  Hava Nagila pretty easy with these notes.

 

The Hungarian Gypsy scale is C D Eb F# G Bb B (C)

Personally, I like the Gypsy scale... sounds much more...umm....Gypsy. 

---

bluesmode - Posted - 06/10/2016:  19:40:40

I was speaking in general terms, but didn't say so. My bad. These scales would be basic. But if you play them both, with the Klezmer scale, you feel like you're at some sort of Jewish celebration. When you play the Hungarian Gypsy scale, you feel like you're around the evening campfire.

No offence meant to either Jews, or Gypsy's.

bluesmode - Posted - 06/10/2016:  19:50:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swing

 

In some ways there is little difference between Klezmer and Gypsy, generally speaking.  Much of the music started in the same geographic areas and developed culturally. Also, the music itself both use a lot of minor shifts and keys.  While Klezmer became a more urban genre and incorporated a wider range of instruments the gypsy music became a medium of improvisation.   These are general terms, thank goodness that both are surviving and maybe growing.



Play Happy



Swing

---

actually, I'm in agreement with Swing. He took the trouble to say generally speaking twice. It must be my fascination with scales to want to break things down to their essence. Swing's statement of Klezmer...more urban...wider range of instruments / Gypsy...medium of improvisation, this seems right on to me.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/11/2016:  01:25:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluesmode

 

The Klezmer & Gypsy scales are quite different.

The Klezmer (or otherwise known simply as the Jewish scale) is C Db E F G Ab Bb (C) you can pick out  Hava Nagila pretty easy with these notes.

 

The Hungarian Gypsy scale is C D Eb F# G Bb B (C)

Personally, I like the Gypsy scale... sounds much more...umm....Gypsy. 

---

seems that they are both modes of the double harmonic scale (1st and 4th)...odd thing is how a scale/mode can be so enigmatic in structure, and yet sound so familiar

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 06/11/2016:  13:37:15

bluesmode -- thanks for the scales.  I've been riffing on them happily.

bluesmode - Posted - 06/11/2016:  20:55:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

quote:

  

---

seems that they are both modes of the double harmonic scale (1st and 4th)...odd thing is how a scale/mode can be so enigmatic in structure, and yet sound so familiar

---

I don't get it. there is a 3 semi-tone interval in the Gypsy scale Eb to F#. Wouldn't there hafta be a 3 semi-tone interval appearing somewhere in the extrapolation of the Klezmer scale to make it a mode of the double harmonic scale? just as the intervals of the major scale don't change? Or the intervals of any scale for that matter. Modes are derived from the notes of that scale? although, I don't know what the double harmonic scale is. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/11/2016:  23:26:42

Dave: heres how i'm playing them, i put the Hungarian minor in F to show that it's a mode of the Double harmonic scale, but the pattern can be shifted over to start on the C, are you playing them the same?

bluesmode - Posted - 06/12/2016:  20:04:07

Fascinating! I was just learning a few keys with open strings using this formula 1 2 b3 b5 5 b7 7....but now I'll hafta see if I can figure out the scale over 4 strings using the Double harmonic pattern. Looks like this could be a closed string pattern any where on the finger board.

the big question for me is, what is the root chord/key for this C double harmonic pattern? Would it be Fmin then? it's a bit of a stretch between the 2nd & 3rd finger, yes? Whoa Nellie!

Pretty neat program to show a violin/mandolin finger board. I presume it's blank and you can put the dots in wherever you want?

Thanks Pete!!

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/12/2016:  23:26:11

it gets really interesting when you look at the other modes of the scale and stack up the arpeggio's, i look at the scale as the melodic minor with a sharpened 4th,( i think that's it's closest neighbor ) there are easier ways to play them, by reaching back with the 1st finger or shifting up or down, but i've got used to the stretch playing the locrian and lydian modes, so i stick with keeping to an octave over 2 strings.

the program is called fiddlescales2 i downloaded it free over a decade ago, but can't find it anywhere on the internet now

pete_fiddle - Posted - 06/13/2016:  01:19:58

i've just put it to good use in a tune i'm working on called "Bernie's tune" in D minor with a Bb bridge, it puts a Gypsie flavour to the 50's jazz thing...nice