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fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/13/2013: 18:15:22
quote:
Originally posted by Mojohand40
-
That's some pretty severe editing, Mojohand!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/13/2013: 18:55:38
I'd say that's pretty extreme advice, but it helped to look at the url and see
"johnnybutlerjazz" in it.... THEN it makes more sense somehow.
So he's a jazz player, and I can see how it would work for a jazz player:
re #1. "Limitations"... jazz is an improvisational idiom- there is no "right way" to play the tune.
re #2. "Don't Be Afraid"... confidence is everything in an improvisational idiom.... and jazz is definitely tolerant of dissonance...
so it would be hard not to pick the right note 99% of the time!
In fact, the same dissonance would sound intentional and "interesting" if played with confidence, but would sound like a mistake if played timidly, like you really weren't sure you wanted to play that note.
re #3. Jazz is definitely NOT about going by the book, so, yeah!
re #4. Total agreement, and it works for everything, not just for jazz. Music all about expressing emotion, and if you don't love the music, you are NOT going to express emotion... except maybe boredom, and who wants to hear THAT expressed? They might as well program that Sony violin-playing robot to play it!!!
re #5. Sounds a bit odd, but I really do agree... you won't get good unless you practice, and so you have to remove the obstacles to making practice happen. I'm thinking of trading the most neglected of my three fiddles in on an electric fiddle so I can practice any time of the day or night, and at the very least I can use it for learning tunes. If my wife can hear it, I want to play it pretty, so I stick to what I know.... that's an obstacle to learning new stuff, and I need to remove that obstacle.
Anyway, #1, #2 are more about jazz than anything else, but negativity and fear don't improve any kind of music, and playing with confidence HELPS any kind of music.
#3 varies with the idiom... classical being the strictest about sticking with the notes, but even there you have different editions of scores with some variation. With folk fiddling idioms, the notation represents just one version, or even just an approximation... the notation gets you "in the ballpark", then your ear has to do the rest. Nothing says you can't replace phrases you don't like with phrases from another version that you DO like.
#4 and #5 are pretty universal.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/13/2013 18:59:18
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/14/2013: 09:23:48
quote:
Originally posted by kilpatrickbill
jazz is beside the point, i feel - the notes speak for themselves and it's up to you to play them as you hear them.
there were exceptions (cosmos love 'em) but the onus of "culture bearer" seemed to weigh heavy on most of my teachers.
actually, best piece of advise ever is: "try to make a beautiful sound." how to hold the bow; stand properly or not do this or that because players didn't do that 100 years ago or "that's not how we play it down here" is just so much blockage in the road.
Play a discordant note over a major triad, and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Play a discordant note over an augminished or demented chord, and....
There was a discordant note? Where? WHICH ONE? It's all discordant!
Dissonant chords are like CAMOUFLAGE for "mistakes".
So to me, jazz isn't besides the point-
HOWEVER:
"Try to make a beautiful sound!"
That works for me!
Great advice for someone learning to use a violin bow!
But maybe not for grunge or heavy metal guitarists.... SOMEBODY has always got to be the exception.
Of course, someone will ask for a definition of beautiful, and then.....
alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/16/2013: 13:33:49
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I'd say that's pretty extreme advice, but it helped to look at the url and see
"johnnybutlerjazz" in it.... THEN it makes more sense somehow.
So he's a jazz player, and I can see how it would work for a jazz player:
re #1. "Limitations"... jazz is an improvisational idiom- there is no "right way" to play the tune.
re #2. "Don't Be Afraid"... confidence is everything in an improvisational idiom.... and jazz is definitely tolerant of dissonance...
so it would be hard not to pick the right note 99% of the time!
re #3. Jazz is definitely NOT about going by the book, so, yeah!
re #4. Total agreement, and it works for everything, not just for jazz. Music all about expressing emotion, and if you don't love the music, you are NOT going to express emotion... except maybe boredom, and who wants to hear THAT expressed? They might as well program that Sony violin-playing robot to play it!!!
re #5. Sounds a bit odd, but I really do agree... you won't get good unless you practice, and so you have to remove the obstacles to making practice happen. I'm thinking of trading the most neglected of my three fiddles in on an electric fiddle so I can practice any time of the day or night, and at the very least I can use it for learning tunes. If my wife can hear it, I want to play it pretty, so I stick to what I know.... that's an obstacle to learning new stuff, and I need to remove that obstacle.
Anyway, #1, #2 are more about jazz than anything else, but negativity and fear don't improve any kind of music, and playing with confidence HELPS any kind of music.
#3 varies with the idiom... classical being the strictest about sticking with the notes, but even there you have different editions of scores with some variation. With folk fiddling idioms, the notation represents just one version, or even just an approximation... the notation gets you "in the ballpark", then your ear has to do the rest. Nothing says you can't replace phrases you don't like with phrases from another version that you DO like.
#4 and #5 are pretty universal.
Jazz??? Dissonance, discordant??? I think viewing it as jazz advice is an extreme interpretation. The view that it's jazz, might be understandable interpretation based on what the belief of what playing fiddle (or any music) is about; goals, and hence process. Not better or worse - but different.
Much of this might have to do with the concept of "fixed" version (someone else's). And then the idea that not a fixed version means jazz improvisation? In that, the goal of playing music is about execution of largely other's definitions and expectations. Executing the notes someone else worked out and decided, the notes used, the phrasing, accents, rhythmic feel and flow, groove. Deciding which fixed version, or replacing phrases from other fixed version; or using fixed variations, is still that it is largely executing someone else's fixed.
I think what he wrote is pretty applicable advice to another traditional/folk concept of fiddling. So in this fiddling concept - "there is no right (definitive) way to play a tune" is not limited to being jazz. Here's my interpretation, as it applies to fiddling:
#1 - is speaking about using "right" as defined by what outside of you, others; external critics and judges. instead using more internal self defined definition of "right" - and that peers and teachers might have a rather limited fixed idea of how it should be played. The exact notes, bowing, timing, rhythm, articulation, expression... they have only heard limited (perhaps one) possibility; as well they might believe all music has a rather fixed "right" way to play it. So with these folks they will judge anything else as wrong (mistakes); or perhaps instill negative dire warnings/fear of bad things will happen, and won't sound right, (or even implied good) to listeners (any and all of them). So it is geared toward conforming, and meeting others expectations; what they want you to sound like.
#2 - It simply has to do with built up experiential intuition; and having trust in that. Starting with a mental idea of how it's supposed to sound, that folks have more ability than they think (gut feel) to listen and evaluate if it sounds right or good. Then can self-evaluate if their mechanics are making that sound. With experience, one also builds intuition about the mechanics (like where the fingers go) related to the sound - for both listening and then playing, it's not just random guesses of possible notes (or other aspects), but a certain logical guess. Initially random guesses might be way off - but it just requires listening to evaluate; aim, miss, recalculate; over time building both intuitive structural familiarity and mechanics, to make pretty good guesses. It is not about playing any random note with confidence, rather having confidence that your guess is likely to be right. And trying to diminish fears, timidness and uncertainty about playing wrong notes, making mistakes. (don't let the fear of making mistakes impede you)
#3 - is about exploring, experimenting and discovery. Don't be afraid to explore possibilities; experiment with slightly different notes, but also phrasing, bowing, accent, rhythmic groove... "what if you played it like this" - listen to the quality. Finding different ways to express and articulate and then a way to play the tune that speaks to you, reflects your own tastes and personality. Part of this can be achieved a bit more of a right-brain process, less cerebral analysis, more sensory feel. via not being afraid to dink around, experiment with babbling (like how infants learn sound combinations) - and like the old penicillin story, don't be quick to throw away something because it didn't conform to current expectation (by the book).
#4 - is related to the above. IMO can expands not to just the genre, region or tune - but to play it in a way you think will sound good, that speaks to you; if what you love is "x tune" but with a heavy syncopated rock or blues back beat rhythmic groove, then that's what you should learn to play; as opposed to working on one that conforms to the (peer, teacher, authentic source, genre police) idea that might be straight downbeat or notey melodic HP version which doesn't do that, and you don't love as much (or at all). This where #1 comes back into it; teachers, peers, want to teach or promote the way of playing a tune the limited way they love, think is best (if not "right").
Not to say this approach is for everybody. No doubt some folks are better at, or prefer following other's instructions. There are certain aspects that are quite outside comfort zone; it is perhaps too risky; exposing one's personal beliefs and feeling; and it's way safer to follow others definitions and instructions.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/16/2013: 21:27:39
quote:
Originally posted by alaskafiddler
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I'd say that's pretty extreme advice, but it helped to look at the url and see
"johnnybutlerjazz" in it.... THEN it makes more sense somehow.
So he's a jazz player, and I can see how it would work for a jazz player:
re #1. "Limitations"... jazz is an improvisational idiom- there is no "right way" to play the tune.
re #2. "Don't Be Afraid"... confidence is everything in an improvisational idiom.... and jazz is definitely tolerant of dissonance...
so it would be hard not to pick the right note 99% of the time!
re #3. Jazz is definitely NOT about going by the book, so, yeah!
re #4. Total agreement, and it works for everything, not just for jazz. Music all about expressing emotion, and if you don't love the music, you are NOT going to express emotion... except maybe boredom, and who wants to hear THAT expressed? They might as well program that Sony violin-playing robot to play it!!!
re #5. Sounds a bit odd, but I really do agree... you won't get good unless you practice, and so you have to remove the obstacles to making practice happen. I'm thinking of trading the most neglected of my three fiddles in on an electric fiddle so I can practice any time of the day or night, and at the very least I can use it for learning tunes. If my wife can hear it, I want to play it pretty, so I stick to what I know.... that's an obstacle to learning new stuff, and I need to remove that obstacle.
Anyway, #1, #2 are more about jazz than anything else, but negativity and fear don't improve any kind of music, and playing with confidence HELPS any kind of music.
#3 varies with the idiom... classical being the strictest about sticking with the notes, but even there you have different editions of scores with some variation. With folk fiddling idioms, the notation represents just one version, or even just an approximation... the notation gets you "in the ballpark", then your ear has to do the rest. Nothing says you can't replace phrases you don't like with phrases from another version that you DO like.
#4 and #5 are pretty universal.
Jazz??? Dissonance, discordant??? I think viewing it as jazz advice is an extreme interpretation. The view that it's jazz, might be understandable interpretation based on what the belief of what playing fiddle (or any music) is about; goals, and hence process. Not better or worse - but different.
Much of this might have to do with the concept of "fixed" version (someone else's). And then the idea that not a fixed version means jazz improvisation? In that, the goal of playing music is about execution of largely other's definitions and expectations. Executing the notes someone else worked out and decided, the notes used, the phrasing, accents, rhythmic feel and flow, groove. Deciding which fixed version, or replacing phrases from other fixed version; or using fixed variations, is still that it is largely executing someone else's fixed.
I think what he wrote is pretty applicable advice to another traditional/folk concept of fiddling. So in this fiddling concept - "there is no right (definitive) way to play a tune" is not limited to being jazz. Here's my interpretation, as it applies to fiddling:
#1 - is speaking about using "right" as defined by what outside of you, others; external critics and judges. instead using more internal self defined definition of "right" - and that peers and teachers might have a rather limited fixed idea of how it should be played. The exact notes, bowing, timing, rhythm, articulation, expression... they have only heard limited (perhaps one) possibility; as well they might believe all music has a rather fixed "right" way to play it. So with these folks they will judge anything else as wrong (mistakes); or perhaps instill negative dire warnings/fear of bad things will happen, and won't sound right, (or even implied good) to listeners (any and all of them). So it is geared toward conforming, and meeting others expectations; what they want you to sound like.
#2 - It simply has to do with built up experiential intuition; and having trust in that. Starting with a mental idea of how it's supposed to sound, that folks have more ability than they think (gut feel) to listen and evaluate if it sounds right or good. Then can self-evaluate if their mechanics are making that sound. With experience, one also builds intuition about the mechanics (like where the fingers go) related to the sound - for both listening and then playing, it's not just random guesses of possible notes (or other aspects), but a certain logical guess. Initially random guesses might be way off - but it just requires listening to evaluate; aim, miss, recalculate; over time building both intuitive structural familiarity and mechanics, to make pretty good guesses. It is not about playing any random note with confidence, rather having confidence that your guess is likely to be right. And trying to diminish fears, timidness and uncertainty about playing wrong notes, making mistakes. (don't let the fear of making mistakes impede you)
#3 - is about exploring, experimenting and discovery. Don't be afraid to explore possibilities; experiment with slightly different notes, but also phrasing, bowing, accent, rhythmic groove... "what if you played it like this" - listen to the quality. Finding different ways to express and articulate and then a way to play the tune that speaks to you, reflects your own tastes and personality. Part of this can be achieved a bit more of a right-brain process, less cerebral analysis, more sensory feel. via not being afraid to dink around, experiment with babbling (like how infants learn sound combinations) - and like the old penicillin story, don't be quick to throw away something because it didn't conform to current expectation (by the book).
#4 - is related to the above. IMO can expands not to just the genre, region or tune - but to play it in a way you think will sound good, that speaks to you; if what you love is "x tune" but with a heavy syncopated rock or blues back beat rhythmic groove, then that's what you should learn to play; as opposed to working on one that conforms to the (peer, teacher, authentic source, genre police) idea that might be straight downbeat or notey melodic HP version which doesn't do that, and you don't love as much (or at all). This where #1 comes back into it; teachers, peers, want to teach or promote the way of playing a tune the limited way they love, think is best (if not "right").
Not to say this approach is for everybody. No doubt some folks are better at, or prefer following other's instructions. There are certain aspects that are quite outside comfort zone; it is perhaps too risky; exposing one's personal beliefs and feeling; and it's way safer to follow others definitions and instructions.
#1: As an example, a classical teacher might have something legitimate to say about limitations if say, you are phrasing something in a way that won't work in an orchestra string section. That's the polar extreme of jazz. Old Time is somewhere in the middle... not nearly as prescriptive, but there IS some community sense of what constitutes Old Time and what doesn't. If, say, the whole local Old Time jam community has a problem with how you're playing something, you may have stepped outside the Old Time idiom.
There was also a time when the more experimental jazz players exceeded the limitations of what the traditional jazz players could tolerate, and you got the division into Dixieland jazz and modern jazz.
As far as the rest, I'm pretty tired, and what you wrote sounds good, but I'm too tired to see if I really disagree or agree... maybe in the morning!
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