groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  08:08:42

Hey, I threatened to do it and I did it... have Brad Leftwich's videos before me.  I'm now trying to watch part two and wash dishes at the same time in the other room... the way I do stuff... lol... which means I never quite get anything right.  But now I've heard Tommy's Lick , as named by Brad Leftwich, is basically the same as synco shuffle, as it's called around here.  I finally got to see Brad Leftwich demonstrate it before moving on to Citico... and a quick pause to say something before I forget it... with dishes soaking and waiting... cold coffee and tuna sandwich also on hold... yes, yes, multitasking gets me nowhere... but Leftwich has the lick... I'll call it a lick like he does because a shuffle, to me is the whole 8 beats... he has the lick, the 1 2 1 2 part, situated at the end of what would be a shuffle to construct.  Now... maybe Tommy's Lick is built from synco shuffle... but as I understand it... synco shuffle has 8 beats that go: d u(u) d u(u) d u ... 1 2 1 2 11.... now here, Brad Leftwich is taking that d u(u) d u(u) part and putting it after his beginning licks... but it comes to 8 (at least at the very beginning of his video) but moved around... so he has a Tommy's Lick intro-ed by short or long strokes... 11 12 12  du du(u) du(u)... or long... 3 2 1 2 d(dd) u(u) d u(u)... so in the short intro T Lick the third short stroke is also the first down of the synco part... and in the second, the last beat of the first long downbow also serves as the first part... OMG ... this is wild stuff!!!!  to move the insides of these things around and give them a different feel... just thought I'd mention... it all makes me go nuts... but I'm feeling like after 4 years of back-burning some of these shuffles that have been discussed here... suddenly... suddenly I'm starting to get them and now seeing right through them... of course, I have no time to pic k up a fiddle during all of this possible revelation!!!!  BAck with more later!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  08:34:06

Melvin's Lick... seems like same as above, but with sawshuffle... chop off the last two strokes, put 'em in front as either a long one or short... something like the above, but not sure... at this rate I'll never get my work done... gonna have to shut off the video... or maybe just leave the work... lol... ugh... but no it need s to get done!

IdleHands - Posted - 09/20/2012:  08:38:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Melvin's Lick... seems like same as above, but with sawshuffle... chop off the last two strokes, put 'em in front as either a long one or short... something like the above, but not sure... at this rate I'll never get my work done... gonna have to shut off the video... or maybe just leave the work... lol... ugh... but no it need s to get done!

---

 Let all the work pile up for a day or two.  Take some you time. 

DougD - Posted - 09/20/2012:  08:45:19

I don't think anything is called "synco shuffle" "around here." That's a term Fiddlepogo made up, and I think he's the only one that uses it, except now for you. Michael can correct me if I'm wrong about it being original with him.

Do you have any of Tommy Jarrell's music on CD (I know in the past you've said you don't like CDs)? Maybe you could learn it right from the source. There are some YouTube videos you could watch too. Same for Melvin Wine.

I think its interesting that you, who have always said you didn't want to imitate others and find your own way (rather stubbornly, IIRC) have gotten so absorbed in this approach. But whatever helps you is good I guess.

Edit: Looking on Amazon, it seems there's not much of Melvin Wine currently available on CD, which is too bad. There's plenty at the DLA though: dla.acaweb.org/cdm/search/sear...er/nosort  Maybe you could listen to some of this while you work, and get it into your bones that way.

PS - Melvin Wine was a very rhythmic bower. David Bragger seems to get that across nicely in this video:  youtube.com/watch?v=uf4JrZtLCU8  Part 2:  youtube.com/watch?v=2nnCKvHZ8Tg

Edited by - DougD on 09/20/2012 09:00:01

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/20/2012:  09:02:50

The times I heard Brad talk about bowing, he used an approach that was about licks not patterns. - Beginning licks; middle; and ending licks. IIRC, he stated he thought it more modular and less likely for folks to keep just doing a repeated pattern over and over. Just a different way to approach it.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:03:59

David Bragger uses the term synco shuffle too...that's where it first ever made any sense to me, watching a David Bragger YouTube. I don't knw who's term it is, regardless...whatever you want to call it, Brad Leftwich has given me another perspective on this by pulling things out of these shuffle's that were either named by Michael, David, or whoever else, he's pulled pieces out, rearranged them and calls them this lick r that lick...and yes has made them appear more modular, which opens up possible decades of thinkin bout this kinda stuff...endless stuff...no, Doug, I don't wanna sound like anybody I can think of...but I want to grab my fiddle, smack out a tune whatever speed I feel like, however I feel like, second by second...and I don't want tangled trip ups in the bowing to stop me from doing my own thing. Do I wanna try to sound like Brad Eftwich....no...not really that crazy about his sound, though I will say he is very impressive with demonstrating these things so difficult to see for yourself r discuss...do I wanna try to sound like Tommy Jarrell??? Let me stop laughing at the absurdity before I say no. I really just wanna play, and don't want obstacles to keep me from playing however I feel like. I don't yet have the tools in place for it.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:12:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

I don't think anything is called "synco shuffle" "around here." That's a term Fiddlepogo made up, and I think he's the only one that uses it, except now for you. Michael can correct me if I'm wrong about it being original with him.

Do you have any of Tommy Jarrell's music on CD (I know in the past you've said you don't like CDs)? Maybe you could learn it right from the source. There are some YouTube videos you could watch too. Same for Melvin Wine.

I think its interesting that you, who have always said you didn't want to imitate others and find your own way (rather stubbornly, IIRC) have gotten so absorbed in this approach. But whatever helps you is good I guess.

Edit: Looking on Amazon, it seems there's not much of Melvin Wine currently available on CD, which is too bad. There's plenty at the DLA though: dla.acaweb.org/cdm/search/sear...er/nosort  Maybe you could listen to some of this while you work, and get it into your bones that way.

PS - Melvin Wine was a very rhythmic bower. David Bragger seems to get that across nicely in this video:  youtube.com/watch?v=uf4JrZtLCU8  Part 2:  youtube.com/watch?v=2nnCKvHZ8Tg

---

Syncoshuffle IS a term I made up to describe the pattern Tom Sauber showed me in about 1974.  Tom never told me where he got it- I assumed Earl Collins, but after watching the video, I don't think so- might have been Mel Durham, since Tom hung out with him too.  I have also heard it or something that sounds very much like it as an ending lick in Chirps Smith's fiddling, John W. Summers' fiddling... AND heard and seen in in a video of Graham Townshend's fiddling!

I first used the term  publicly on the Fiddle Hangout in the "Bowing Patterns For Your Enjoyment" thread which started in the summer of 2007.  It wasn't one of Dave Reiner's patterns, so don't look for it in the first post- I mention it along with Offset Nashville later in the thread.

(Tom later became a bandmate of Brad Leftwich in Tom, Brad, and Alice (Alice Gerard) which is kind of ironic somehow.)

However, David Bragger is using the term, and RedDesertViolin heard it from someplace else and is using it in her videos, so I think the term is gaining some currency.  It MAY also be an example of simultaneous invention, sort of like it seems multiple people were inventing airplanes around the same time. It DOES seem rather obvious to call a pattern that syncopates "Syncoshuffle", no?  I don't really care... it just a needed name!

And actually, I googled it, and I got a hit of a DRUMMER using the term... but I think for something else... but I couldn't find a recorded example to verify.  It's not a COMMON drumming term whatever it's talking about.

One thing that can happen with these patterns is that you can offset them... once the motions become second nature, and you're struggling with a difficult passage, you can find yourself doing the same motions, but say, 2 notes late, and the effect is different, and how you would tab it out is different.  That's the difference between Nashville and what I call "Jingle Bells" shuffle. Sing or play Jingle Bells and you'll know why.  Somewhere there is probably a song that starts with the same pattern as "Syncoshuffle", but it's probably not nearly as well known as Jingle Bells- probably a Big Band era song.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/20/2012 10:52:11

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:19:39

By the way thanks for links Doug, I think I've seen them before...Leftwich also has a Melvin Lick, although he points out most of these wat he calls licks were ubiquitous in the old times among the old mt fiddlers. He just names em to be able to call em something to talk about em...whatcha gotta do! I'm thinking if I can learn some of this stuff enough to feel comfortable using it, I might rename shuffles and / or parts and pieces,..IF, if my grandson takes an interest...and find a good way to get him going with them before he's old enough to "fret " over them! Lotta if's involved, so we'll name that pan "Iffy"!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:21:27

Pogo, congratulations on your term, synco shuffle goin viral in the musical world!!! Nw I gotta snap/ string my beans and get em on the stove because I'm flat out run outta time!!!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:24:42

Yes, Brad uses the term "lick" instead of pattern or "shuffle". 

I simply followed the naming convention I had heard for Georgia Shuffle and Nashville Shuffle- no need to reinvent the wheel!

Also, the patterns I named and use all resemble Nashville in some way, so it seems appropriate that way too.

However, "lick" may have had some currency with some of the oldtimers, so that may explain Brad's choice.

Keep in mind that there is this thing about opening and ending licks.

There are definitely ways of varying these things but keeping the essential feel intact.

Tommy did this thing where he led the beat on the last note before the first downbeat of the tune.

I was able to learn to mimic by seeing and hearing Tommy play live around 1975 WITHOUT ever totally figuring out what he was doing enough to describe the pattern.

DougD - Posted - 09/20/2012:  10:52:33

Peggy, Brad Leftwich has done a lot of things musically, and I haven't seen him in awhile, but if you want to hear some of his earlier work, if you look around online for "Plank Road Stringband" you can find the album "Vocal and Instrumental Blend," which I recorded for them back in 1977. There are two fiddles, so its hard to tell which is Brad and which is Andy Williams, but there's some good playing there. No talk of "licks" or "patterns" during those sessions that I recall, but I think this was well before his instructional materials were created.

Pogo, its funny you should mention drumming. People have compared your patterns to "rolls" in Bluegrass banjo, but its occurred to me that another instrument that uses similar named "patterns" is drumming, with its "rudiments," like the paradiddle and ratamacue. However they are regarded as just that - 'rudiments," except in certain styles of, I believe, military drumming, where they are played as is for certain purposes. Otherwise, they're just basic learning tools and building blocks.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/20/2012:  11:10:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



By the way thanks for links Doug, I think I've seen them before...Leftwich also has a Melvin Lick, although he points out most of these wat he calls licks were ubiquitous in the old times among the old mt fiddlers. He just names em to be able to call em something to talk about em...whatcha gotta do! I'm thinking if I can learn some of this stuff enough to feel comfortable using it, I might rename shuffles and / or parts and pieces,..IF, if my grandson takes an interest...and find a good way to get him going with them before he's old enough to "fret " over them! Lotta if's involved, so we'll name that pan "Iffy"!

---

BTW, one of the reasons I got so excited about Dave Reiner's bowing posts here and on the Fiddle Forum was that the ones I call Sawshuffle and Smoothshuffle figure very early in his list- he said 1-1-1-3-1-1 (the one I call Sawshuffle) was used in Canadian fiddling, and mentioned 3-3-1-1 (the one I call Smoothshuffle) as having been used in Irish fiddling as a smoother alternative to sawstroking a bow-rocking arpeggio.  I later found the "Sawshuffle as an opening for Georgia Shuffle" pic in my photos section in a post on a German fiddling site- but described as part of "Georgia Shuffle".  It's a very natural way to interface sawstroke and Georgia Shuffle, and since both are used in Bluegrass fiddling, I'm guessing it's been used as an opening for Georgia Shuffle for a long time there.  But it also works well as a stand-alone pattern.

My inspiration for Sawshuffle was Brian "Hawk" Hubbard and Dave Molk, although they didn't actually SHOW me.... I stumbled on to it later, but it sure sounds and looks like what I remember them doing.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/20/2012:  11:13:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



By the way thanks for links Doug, I think I've seen them before...Leftwich also has a Melvin Lick, although he points out most of these wat he calls licks were ubiquitous in the old times among the old mt fiddlers. He just names em to be able to call em something to talk about em...whatcha gotta do! I'm thinking if I can learn some of this stuff enough to feel comfortable using it, I might rename shuffles and / or parts and pieces,..IF, if my grandson takes an interest...and find a good way to get him going with them before he's old enough to "fret " over them! Lotta if's involved, so we'll name that pan "Iffy"!

---

BTW, one of the reasons I got so excited about Dave Reiner's bowing posts here in 2007 and on the Fiddle Forum (2006 I believe) was that the ones I call Sawshuffle and Smoothshuffle figure very early in his list- he said 1-1-1-3-1-1 (the one I call Sawshuffle) was used in Canadian fiddling, and mentioned 3-3-1-1 (the one I call Smoothshuffle) as having been used in Irish fiddling as a smoother alternative to sawstroking a bow-rocking arpeggio.  I later found the "Sawshuffle as an opening for Georgia Shuffle" pic in my photos section in a post on a German fiddling site- but described as part of "Georgia Shuffle".  It's a very natural way to interface sawstroke and Georgia Shuffle, and since both are used in Bluegrass fiddling, I'm guessing it's been used as an opening for Georgia Shuffle for a long time there.  But it also works well as a stand-alone pattern.

My inspiration for Sawshuffle was Brian "Hawk" Hubbard and Dave Molk, although they didn't actually SHOW me.... I stumbled on to it later, but it sure sounds and looks like what I remember them doing.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  11:59:42

Well I guess, come to think of it... shuffles are usually a full count of 8 beats, aren't they?  Shuffles might be made up of licks.  or the part of the synco shuffle is just moved to the back of the shuffle instead of the front... I guess it still could be called a shuffle if you end up with all 8 beats once you do some rearranging of parts... without all the discussion over the past four years here, I doubt Brad Leftwich's videos woulda made sense to me ... now... though... they are giving me a lot to think about.  Now, next on my list is to get some things done so that hopefully next week or sometime soon I get some TIME to PLAY...  that wuld be helpful, not to mention fun.  I ordered a new capo for my guitar... 34 dollars... gosh... I barely used capos before except for singing... now this BG thinkg is all about capo, capo, capo... the guitar sounds like it got a good whiff of a party balloon!!!  Anyway, I thought I needed a better capo for dealing with this... now watch 'em kick me out for a REAL BG guitar player... lol... not related to topic... sorry... just thoughts going all over the place and much work to do!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/20/2012:  12:33:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Peggy, Brad Leftwich has done a lot of things musically, and I haven't seen him in awhile, but if you want to hear some of his earlier work, if you look around online for "Plank Road Stringband" you can find the album "Vocal and Instrumental Blend," which I recorded for them back in 1977. There are two fiddles, so its hard to tell which is Brad and which is Andy Williams, but there's some good playing there. No talk of "licks" or "patterns" during those sessions that I recall, but I think this was well before his instructional materials were created.

Pogo, its funny you should mention drumming. People have compared your patterns to "rolls" in Bluegrass banjo, but its occurred to me that another instrument that uses similar named "patterns" is drumming, with its "rudiments," like the paradiddle and ratamacue. However they are regarded as just that - 'rudiments," except in certain styles of, I believe, military drumming, where they are played as is for certain purposes. Otherwise, they're just basic learning tools and building blocks.

---

Well, it's funny, but not too strange-

I've always thought of shuffle patterns as being parallels to drumming, even though I'm not a drummer.

I was in school band, and one day, the band instructor walked over to the drummers, who were only a few feet back from us two bass clarinets, and talked to them about their flamicues and perididdles, and maybe used the term "rudiments of drumming" since I picked up that term somehow.

In an article in Fiddler Magazine about Brittany Haas, Bruce Molsky (whom she took lessons from) said (rough quote)- "She's starting to get it- she's using the bow percussively"

The first LP my family had that had any Old Time fiddling on it also had some fife and drum music on it, and I really liked it.  It's apparent from both tune titles and Alan Jabbour's interaction with Henry Reed that there was some interaction between military fifers and fiddlers.  Henry Reed learned "Quince Dillion's High D tune" from a fifer, and other tunes as well. I think that was probably only the "tip of the iceberg".  Green Willis (aka the Raw Recruit) sounds a lot like a fife and drum tune, actually so do Soldier's Joy and Mississippi Sawyers. For me personally, I think having heard fife and drum music has shaped the patterns I like in fiddling... and I suspect that that kind of influence would also have been much more common back when the fife and drums were the normal military music.  It's sort of like today, Old Time has to coexist with Bluegrass, and that affects Old Time, like with the addition of a standup bass, or the tendency for Festival Style to hype the backbeat.   In the same way, Old Time before the Civil War coexisted with fife and drum music, and would HAD to have been influenced.  Since drums are half of the fife and drum equation, the marching rhythms must have had an influence on the rhythms used in fiddling, just like we know it had an influence on the tunes.  I think Samuel Bayard observed some kind of interaction between fifing and fiddling, didn't he?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/20/2012:  14:06:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

In an article in Fiddler Magazine about Brittany Haas, Bruce Molsky (whom she took lessons from) said (rough quote)- "She's starting to get it- she's using the bow percussively"

 

---

In my conversations with Bruce, I think he was speaking more in terms of similar to African drumming; a djembe rather than a snare. Little bit different idea to drumming.

I think actual drumming is a great approach to forming a a deep understanding of rhythmic feel and flow.

It really hit home when my children were in elementary school, and they had the old stereotypical general music class teaching about half notes, quarter notes counting; Every Good Boy/FACE.. and the old recorders trying to play "Hot Cross Buns" - what it managed to do is make music complex and boring for them (and their peers), about as fun as math class, most just didn't "get it",  I think many decided they just were playing music ws not in their future. ---  Then they had a 2 week artist in residence drummer at the school. He did none of the note names, nor quarter note counting things, nor was he teaching it exactly from a "pattern" approach; just using mnemonic devices, different tones of the drum, listen,  "feel" the beat and play! Every kid seemed to "get it" and their rhythm after about 4 one hour classes was really awesome. Very few looked as if they were concentrating, most just were smiling and getting into it. Many kids begged their parents to attend an optional before and after school expansion, and by two weeks they were banging out some fairly complex multi layered rhythms; and added some simple pentatonic tones to sing along with it (they were all pretty well in tune). Comparing this experience with the "hot cross buns" concerts (incredibly poor timing, lacking any rhythmic quality) was day and night, both in sound and in the kids attitude about playing music (it was fun and exciting). My thought was "THIS is what they should be teaching" Sadly, the music teacher didn't think much of the program, or the drummer; as soon as the two weeks was done the school music teacher went right back to the old lesson plan (wouldn't even connect that rhythm concept to his lesson) This drummer went to other schools in the district, and it was the same story.

Drumming can be a powerful tool to playing music.

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/20/2012:  14:35:05

Leftwich's "Licks" are exactly the same thing as "bowing patterns" ... one measure of 8 "fast-notes", with the location of the slurs specified.  And Leftwich's "Tommy's lick" is exactly the same thing as Pogo's "syncoshuffle".  Likewise, Leftwich's "Melvin's lick" is exactly the same thing as Pogo's "sawshuffle".  Those ALL (in their basic form) have two sawed fast-notes at the end of the measure (down-up).

But for EACH of the basic patterns or licks, Leftwich uses the SAME name to denote a variation in which those last two sawed fast-notes are downbow-slurred into the first fast-note of the next measure.  That gives a "lead into the downbeat" effect that Leftwich uses freely on all the patterns, and which he feels is an important part of getting the "OldTime" sound.

When you do that slur into the downbeat with sawshuffle (aka "Melvin's lick"), you get something similar (but not identical) to Pogo's smoothshuffle.

On Leftwich's 1st DVD, he only teaches the sawstroke and Nashville patterns, but for both of those patterns, he DOES teach two types of variations: the "lead into the downbeat" slur, and also the "finish phrases with a pulsed upbow".  He considers both of those two types of variations to be very important in OldTime, and he likes to be able to freely mix and match them.

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 09/20/2012 14:39:48

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/20/2012:  18:07:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

Leftwich's "Licks" are exactly the same thing as "bowing patterns" ... one measure of 8 "fast-notes", with the location of the slurs specified.  And Leftwich's "Tommy's lick" is exactly the same thing as Pogo's "syncoshuffle".  Likewise, Leftwich's "Melvin's lick" is exactly the same thing as Pogo's "sawshuffle".  Those ALL (in their basic form) have two sawed fast-notes at the end of the measure (down-up).

But for EACH of the basic patterns or licks, Leftwich uses the SAME name to denote a variation in which those last two sawed fast-notes are downbow-slurred into the first fast-note of the next measure.  That gives a "lead into the downbeat" effect that Leftwich uses freely on all the patterns, and which he feels is an important part of getting the "OldTime" sound.

When you do that slur into the downbeat with sawshuffle (aka "Melvin's lick"), you get something similar (but not identical) to Pogo's smoothshuffle.

On Leftwich's 1st DVD, he only teaches the sawstroke and Nashville patterns, but for both of those patterns, he DOES teach two types of variations: the "lead into the downbeat" slur, and also the "finish phrases with a pulsed upbow".  He considers both of those two types of variations to be very important in OldTime, and he likes to be able to freely mix and match them.

---

The lead into the downbeat thing is starting to get easy for me, and I find myself using it more and more places.  It does have a similarity to Smoothshuffle in a way.

There's no telling which set of names will stick, BUT one thing I've noticed is that these patterns are not "owned" by any one tradition or genre.  I love Tommy Jarrell's fiddling, but I noticed in some YouTube comments some contest fiddlers or fiddle fans making snarky comments about Tommy's fiddling-  you have to have good tone to impress anybody in contest fiddling, and that was one thing Tommy did not have much of.  Yet those fiddlers might be interested in 1-2-1-2-1-1, but they sure wouldn't be motivated to call it "Tommy's Lick".  Bluegrass fiddlers might feel the same.  Stylistically neutral names are a good thing, I think.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  18:42:33

Well I didn't watch close, but to e it seemed Tommy's lick was like the first six beats being shoved over to become the last six beats, with two mre being put in front of them...the two were either separate strokes or combined with the first shrt one to make a long stroke...I.e., 3 2 1 2... or the other way... 11 1 2 12, instead of 12 12 11. That's how it looked to me...I'll have to watch it again better, one of these days bt don't know when I can besides while washing dishes.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/20/2012:  18:43:38

So right now I'm thinking synco shuffle and Tommy's lick are kinda the same, but it starts in a different spot.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/20/2012:  19:24:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

The times I heard Brad talk about bowing, he used an approach that was about licks not patterns. - Beginning licks; middle; and ending licks. IIRC, he stated he thought it more modular and less likely for folks to keep just doing a repeated pattern over and over. Just a different way to approach it.

---

The idea of beginning, middle and ending licks was new to me from bowing discussions where Brad's materials were mentioned, but the modularity was something I saw pretty early on my own. Bowing problem in a measure?  Swap in a different pattern, problem solved- nothing else in the tune changes- EASY!!!

Instead of the beginning, ending and middle, I tend to use one pattern as the main flavor, and another where the main one doesn't fit the melody... sometimes that's the first measure, but sometimes not.  Lately I'm using more patterns in a tune, maybe 3.  But I'm not sure, because it all happens without thinking about it... well, for the most part.

However, once I heard about the beginning, ending and middle lick concept, I can see and hear it in SO many recordings and videos of "oldtimers".

As Mike said, the terms "shuffle", pattern, and (bowing) lick are really just different words for the same thing.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/21/2012:  04:12:59

I hope to come outta both these discussions here, plus whatever I can pull outta Brad Leftwich, with something that feels right and becomes so automatic and reliable I can throw it around in my playing without thinking r being sure f what I did...but I might just come away with my usual comfort zone being Nashville Shuffle, nothing more...lol...who knows? I'm gonna hope to get the chances to try and see what sets in. Believe me, any successes will be in yer face right here! If I ever get the chance to sit down and try some stuff...very busy weekend.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/21/2012:  07:25:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

In an article in Fiddler Magazine about Brittany Haas, Bruce Molsky (whom she took lessons from) said (rough quote)- "She's starting to get it- she's using the bow percussively"

 

---

In my conversations with Bruce, I think he was speaking more in terms of similar to African drumming; a djembe rather than a snare. Little bit different idea to drumming.

I think actual drumming is a great approach to forming a a deep understanding of rhythmic feel and flow.

It really hit home when my children were in elementary school, and they had the old stereotypical general music class teaching about half notes, quarter notes counting; Every Good Boy/FACE.. and the old recorders trying to play "Hot Cross Buns" - what it managed to do is make music complex and boring for them (and their peers), about as fun as math class, most just didn't "get it",  I think many decided they just were playing music ws not in their future. ---  Then they had a 2 week artist in residence drummer at the school. He did none of the note names, nor quarter note counting things, nor was he teaching it exactly from a "pattern" approach; just using mnemonic devices, different tones of the drum, listen,  "feel" the beat and play! Every kid seemed to "get it" and their rhythm after about 4 one hour classes was really awesome. Very few looked as if they were concentrating, most just were smiling and getting into it. Many kids begged their parents to attend an optional before and after school expansion, and by two weeks they were banging out some fairly complex multi layered rhythms; and added some simple pentatonic tones to sing along with it (they were all pretty well in tune). Comparing this experience with the "hot cross buns" concerts (incredibly poor timing, lacking any rhythmic quality) was day and night, both in sound and in the kids attitude about playing music (it was fun and exciting). My thought was "THIS is what they should be teaching" Sadly, the music teacher didn't think much of the program, or the drummer; as soon as the two weeks was done the school music teacher went right back to the old lesson plan (wouldn't even connect that rhythm concept to his lesson) This drummer went to other schools in the district, and it was the same story.

Drumming can be a powerful tool to playing music.

---

I wasn't thinking of a snare, I was thinking of a "street drum" used in the fife and drum bands.  But there are also different grooves in fiddling... Tommy Jarrell and Earl Collins have very different grooves.  Some fiddlers are more "straight" and European sounding in their rhythm.  A straight marching groove might go along with that better.  Other fiddlers have a more syncopated groove, and maybe thinking like a "djembe" drummer would work better.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/21/2012:  07:58:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Well I guess, come to think of it... shuffles are usually a full count of 8 beats, aren't they?  Shuffles might be made up of licks.  or the part of the synco shuffle is just moved to the back of the shuffle instead of the front... I guess it still could be called a shuffle if you end up with all 8 beats once you do some rearranging of parts... without all the discussion over the past four years here, I doubt Brad Leftwich's videos woulda made sense to me ... now... though... they are giving me a lot to think about.  Now, next on my list is to get some things done so that hopefully next week or sometime soon I get some TIME to PLAY...  that wuld be helpful, not to mention fun.  I ordered a new capo for my guitar... 34 dollars... gosh... I barely used capos before except for singing... now this BG thinkg is all about capo, capo, capo... the guitar sounds like it got a good whiff of a party balloon!!!  Anyway, I thought I needed a better capo for dealing with this... now watch 'em kick me out for a REAL BG guitar player... lol... not related to topic... sorry... just thoughts going all over the place and much work to do!

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Glad to hear that the bowing discussions helped SOMEBODY!!!

Yup... capos are TOO expensive, but they ARE precision devices.  There is one kind that's only $5 around here, but it's not a quick-change mechanism... you have to screw it down tight.  It's worth the bucks to get one you can change quickly if you are performing with the guitar.   Many singers are really picky about getting the exact key for a song, and when you add harmony singers to the mix, it can make the choice of key EVEN MORE narrow and VERY critical.

Whatever happens with the BG band, I think this has been a good experience for you and will boost your confidence as a performer.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/21/2012 07:59:50

DougD - Posted - 09/21/2012:  09:05:21

Peggy - What kind of capo costs $34? I just looked at Elderly's site, and both Shubb and Kyser capos are $18. Both of them work pretty well, in my experience.

DougD - Posted - 09/21/2012:  09:31:32

Same price for the Paige, which is another good one.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/21/2012:  10:14:39

Doug, I have cheap capos that aren't working out too good,..I think they were around 10.00 several years back...they are giving mr problems so I looked around the net and liked what I read about the G 7th Performance Capo...expensive but looked like it might Mae things a lot easier for me...supposedly it's due to get here today, and I have to hit the road fr the gig in less than two hours...so I sure hope I can ake it with me for tonight...anther gig tomorrow night though, and it oughta be here for sure by then.

dsreiner - Posted - 09/21/2012:  10:19:04

Andy Reiner and I are getting closer to completing our book/DVD on bowing. 

As part of this effort, we've thought deeply about pattern names and have discussed this aspect of bowing with a lot of fiddlers.

More details later... 

I'll just mention that we are using the name "Tommy's shuffle" and will show it in action in June Apple. Sometimes we slur into it from the last two notes of the previous measure.

Dave

P.S. Oldtime Fiddling Across America has a photo on page 10 of me listening to Tommy Jarrell in his back yard in the '80's when Pete Anick and I visited him.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/21/2012:  10:24:36

Dave, let us know! Hurry before we run outta all these gigs and my piggy bank goes dry again!!!

DougD - Posted - 09/21/2012:  10:51:07

Well, good luck with the capo. I have friends that use those, so I've seen them but never tried one. The three I've mentioned have always worked well for me, but I don't use a capo very often.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/21/2012:  19:49:49

Thanks, Doug ... I didn't get to use it tonight...it was delivered after I already left, but tomorrow we have another one, so we'll see how it goes. I've never used a capo this much in my whole life!

rcc - Posted - 09/21/2012:  21:09:01

Yep. Tommy's phrases often start a beat ahead (the last beat of the prior measure). More often than not, actually.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/22/2012:  05:10:05

Maybe that's why the 3 2 1 2? Don't knw and don't knw wen I'll ever get to watch ths again!

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/22/2012:  11:37:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Maybe that's why the 3 2 1 2? 

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Yeah ... the first two counts of that 3 are in the previous measure.  And after your 2nd 2, there are two 1's to complete the measure (unless you decide to again down-slur those two 1's into the downbeat of the next measure).

I'd recommend that you initially practice the pattern without that lead-in down-slur into the next measure ... just do it first as | 1-2-1  2-1-1 | ... .  Then, once you can do it comfortably that way, you can add in the initial down-slur into the next measure, whenever you feel like doing that ... it's most commonly done at the beginning of a phrase, but it CAN be done more often than that (but usually not in every measure).

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/22/2012:  16:56:53

I'll ave to look at te video again.

DougD - Posted - 09/22/2012:  18:44:49

Peggy, have you suddenly become a drunken Cockney?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/22/2012:  21:35:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Peggy, have you suddenly become a drunken Cockney?

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I'm sure it's just the iPhone...

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/23/2012:  05:03:22

Lol...the iPad plus exhaustion...I swear!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/26/2012:  06:18:01

Well I'm never gonna get the dishes done... but trying to watch it again and wash the dishes (two separate rooms, so running back and forth as I hear things... whew, good exercise but slow way to get the dishes done!)... and now I'm just confused.  It seems that Leftwich doesn't see the beginning of things where I see the beginning of things...a nd I think I was intitially wrong, as others here said, in thinking he was putting the 1 2 1 2 of the syncoshuffle in a different spot... I'm totally confused right now, but I'm wondering if he sees the start of things at the end of where I normally count as a beat ... he's anticipating the beat, which I also do, but not the same way as he does... I wonder if his thinking about the lick starts at the anticipation of the beat... and my thinking of a lick/shuffle, whatever, starts at the beginning of the beat, compensating for the ending or anticipation... which has me entirely confused, not to mention facing a sink of dirty dishes in lukewarm water with fading suds!  I'll get back to it another time... just correcting my earlyier post... which, thanks to the bowing sticklers around here ... I was alerted to the idea that I could be entirely wrong...lol... and now I think I was... but I'm not sure what is right... Brad Leftwich has me a little confused at this point.  I'll have to try to watch again when/if I ever get the time for it!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/26/2012:  07:18:30

uh-oh... Little Maggie uses what he calls Benton's Lick... wich is Tommy's Lick shifted over by one beat... 

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/26/2012:  11:03:54

Remember, there is nothing that says you have to learn EVERYTHING in Leftwich's book, especially not all at once.  If something doesn't grab you or seems too hard now, leave it for later.

And keep a focus on one or two shuffles that seem most useful to you now.  Just a guess, but I'm guessing Smoothshuffle and straight Syncoshuffle are going to fit in nicely with your nice Nashvilles.   The beat leading thing with Tommy's Lick can be challenging- if it appeals to you, the best shot is to listen a lot to a fiddler who does it lots to get a better feel for it.

Generally I've found I get control over a pattern to where it becomes useful ONE PATTERN at a time.  I think that's because they have to get down into your subsconcious as distinct entities, and then you let your subconscious decide which one to play where.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/26/2012:  17:56:39

Thanks for that reminder...ltsa stuff for that ol back burner...maybe it'll make sense after it sits for a while!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/26/2012:  22:46:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Thanks for that reminder...ltsa stuff for that ol back burner...maybe it'll make sense after it sits for a while!

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Pree-cisely!  Egg-zackly!!!

DougD - Posted - 09/26/2012:  22:55:58

"if it appeals to you, the best shot is to listen a lot to a fiddler who does it lots to get a better feel for it." Maybe Tommy Jarrell would be a good choice.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/27/2012:  01:42:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

"if it appeals to you, the best shot is to listen a lot to a fiddler who does it lots to get a better feel for it." Maybe Tommy Jarrell would be a good choice.

---

Believe it or not, I was thinking about saying that... it's almost too obvious.  Listen to Tommy Jarrell to get a feel for Tommy's Lick!

I may have run out of time, and just sent the post off.  I'm struggling to trim my posts down to manageable size.  But you've exposed a downside of that.

BUT I recall my thinking on it was getting more complex: there may be other fiddlers who use it, and maybe hearing their take on it ALONG with Tommy's playing might give her a better feel for how SHE might want to use it.  Problem is... I'm not sure who those fiddlers would be, but I'm guessing Round Peak style would be the obvious first place to look.

What I'm saying is that just as Nashville Shuffle has a variety of potential phrasings, so does Tommy's Lick with the leading beat thing.  And if she can find several different fiddlers who do it, pick one whose phrasing she likes best (maybe Tommy's, maybe not), then listen a lot to that fiddler, I think she'll have the best chance of success with it.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/27/2012 01:44:43

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/27/2012:  04:03:23

I've seen T Jarrell on YouTube and can never figure out WHAT he is doing...he sounds awesome...but his fiddling is way beyond me. Here lately with the BG band, bitter sweet to me because its very time consuming ( I swear those guys want me to know 1,000 tunes and I never heard f 99% of em...the ones I've heard or known are usually way diffent than how I know em). But I always have a whole lot of fun with them...lol...still waiting for them to kick me out for de- grassing them by my playing style...but they're still hanging with me and me with them, so far. Anyway, with lts of family needing a lot of help and the band, my fiddling time has gone to near zero...back burner is about all I got for now...maybe by the time I get some time for it, something will snap and ill get it. I might just put the video ( part two) on in the other room while I wash my tons of dishes we seem to get everyday and see if it ever soaks in. Felt like I was doing better just by the 111311's and such I was grappling with here just before the band got going a lot!

DougD - Posted - 09/27/2012:  08:55:59

Peggy, if I were you I think I'd just get a good Tommy Jarrell CD and put it on while you work, and see if it sinks in that way. At least that's what I diid, although I don't really try to play like him, which saves a lot of trouble!

Michael, I don't know if Tommy's playing style was exactly unique, but it was certainly personal to him. The term "Round Peak style" is really a quite recent development - the members of the older generation really played in a lot of different ways. I'd say if you want to incorporate some of Tommy's feel in your playing just listen to him a lot and then see what comes out.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/27/2012:  11:33:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



I've seen T Jarrell on YouTube and can never figure out WHAT he is doing...he sounds awesome...but his fiddling is way beyond me. Here lately with the BG band, bitter sweet to me because its very time consuming ( I swear those guys want me to know 1,000 tunes and I never heard f 99% of em...the ones I've heard or known are usually way diffent than how I know em). But I always have a whole lot of fun with them...lol...still waiting for them to kick me out for de- grassing them by my playing style...but they're still hanging with me and me with them, so far. Anyway, with lts of family needing a lot of help and the band, my fiddling time has gone to near zero...back burner is about all I got for now...maybe by the time I get some time for it, something will snap and ill get it. I might just put the video ( part two) on in the other room while I wash my tons of dishes we seem to get everyday and see if it ever soaks in. Felt like I was doing better just by the 111311's and such I was grappling with here just before the band got going a lot!

---

Yeah, I can relate... Tommy's playing and bowing choices are woven together so well, that it's not easy to watch or listen and decipher what he's doing... and really, the leading beat thing is somewhat counterintuitive.  I've been KIND of able to imitate it for years when I do a Tommy Jarrell tune, but it's only now after about 25 years of playing STARTING to feel like something that I can throw into appropriate places at will.

1-1-1-3-1-1 (Sawshuffle) is an awfully good strategy because it gets you practicing and using a lot of sawstrokes, but somehow is more comfortable than 100% sawstroke.  It also gets you going on 3 note upbow slurs... later, you will find other places to use them.  They are really handy, but you have to start somewhere!

I do have mixed feeling about the BG thing.   I'm GLAD you're playing music, but wish you could find more time to fiddle!

But I'm kind of in the same boat... the people I get to jam with around here are almost NEVER Old Time.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/27/2012:  12:14:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Michael, I don't know if Tommy's playing style was exactly unique, but it was certainly personal to him. The term "Round Peak style" is really a quite recent development - the members of the older generation really played in a lot of different ways. I'd say if you want to incorporate some of Tommy's feel in your playing just listen to him a lot and then see what comes out.

---

Well, I DID listen to Tommy a whole lot... had all the County records of him that were available at the time, and played them probably more than anything else... I had the rep in the L.A. scene of being the local Tommy Jarrell fan!!!

But it wasn't until I actually SAW him that I could start to make sense of what he was doing.  And shortly thereafter my life went in different directions (no longer playing 3 to 5 hours a day and traveling to festivals) , so I wasn't able to pursue it further.

Listening and imitating works really well for phrasing if the basic bowing mechanics are similar.

If I use Idle Hand's follow-the-melody sawstroke, I can get very close to Kenny Hall's phrasing.

A beginning sawstroker has the potential to get a LOT out of listening to an advanced sawstroker,

a Nashville based player is going to find it much easier to absorb phrasing from a more proficient Nashville based player, etc.

But if the bowings are radically different, you're comparing apples to oranges... you may pick up SOMETHING, but it's just not the same.

Anyway, my idea is that if you can get proficient with ONE of the building blocks of a particular fiddlers style, it's going to give you a leg up on capturing the feel of their playing and maybe even getting the rest.

In your case, it seems you did something like that- sawstroke is the main ingredient of Doc Roberts' style, and that's pretty obvious listening to him... and the other elements have to fit in to that context.  So I can see how lots of listening and imitating could get you where you wanted to go.

But Tommy hardly ever used sawstroke... so to start at the same place with Tommy's playing... you have to be able to do whatever his main bowing is in a particular tune.  And I got to watch both Earl Collins and Tommy Jarrell- with Earl, his main strategy was obvious- sawstroke!  With Tommy, it wasn't nearly so obvious, except that leading-the-beat opening lick was VERY striking... but even that is a quantum leap in difficulty of deciphering compared to sawstroke.

It's very similar to crossword puzzles or hangman or such... the more letters of a word, or the more words of a sentence you know, the more it narrows down the options and enables you to successfully come up with the rest.

Or if a player's main bowing is 80% Nashville, or 90% sawstroke, and you KNOW that... well, if you can do the main bowing ingredient, you're 80% or 90% there (or whatever).  Listen and imitate the rest.... yeah, you can get very close.

But I would say that Tommy Jarrell is probably the main traditional example where that normally good method WON'T likely get you very close.

As far as Round Peak...  yeah... the other older players were quite different.  I'm most familiar with Fred Cockerham's, since he sometimes played fiddle on the County Records, and Tommy played banjo on those cuts.  Very different fiddling, but very nice, and fit just as well with the Round Peak style banjo.

However, I was thinking more of modern Round Peak players that are perhaps more likely to be borrowing a page or two from Tommy's playing.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/27/2012 12:26:05