I tried watching some of your early YouTube videos, and playing seemed so stressful for you that it was uncomfortable to watch. I was glad when you started making little videos or montages of stills that solved the problem.
Most of the musicians I most admire look pretty "normal" when they play - not grinning unnaturally nor strangely contorted either.

Ever watch John Hartford? My mouth does weird things when I play fiddle but I've stopped worrying about it... Maybe I'll grab a crayon and try your method, Peggy. Hope I don't develop a taste for them again like I did when I was a kid!

I need to work on that blank stare of mine.
I need to work on alot of stuff.

I like playing with this one fiddler because he is normally kind of flat-faced/grouchy looking and doesn’t chat much, BUt then when he plays, he gets this small childlike faraway dreamy smile…he is in his happy place, and all his defenses are down. I love that!

FOr me, I have no idea what I look like but when I’m doing something hard like trying to pick up a tune in the spot, I sometimes realize that my mouth is hanging open, and I consciously close it! I must look kinda stupid (I sometimes feel stupid, too! :-)

There's a YouTuber who regularly posts tutorials. I think he just doesn't give a damn, and the mimicking face he tends to make while playing is somewhat hidden by his facial hair.

During my first few years, I looked as if I were under the influence of some sort of poison that was about to kill me...

These days, I find that 'the stare' is the most comfortable way to play. Sometimes I stare straight into the camera, but quite often I look at the fingerboard, which also allows me to quickly check my left-hand position now and then.

Maybe it's just a secret rite passage we all have to go through before we can label ourselves as fiddlers :-p

When I was in my early twenties I did a lot of television work. I understand the pressure to look happy in front of the camera. There is difference between a recorded program and live to air. Live to air was where I felt the pressure at first. My only strategy was to say nothing to anybody before the show and then I’d try and imagine that the only people watching are those in the studio. That worked for me.

Whoa boy, this hits home. My wife used to tell me it more fun to watch my face then to look at the hands. The faces made were almost embarrassing, on videos, like I was trying to pass a stone or something. These days I aim for a neutral face and mouth, try at least, not always successful. And the stare - she said one time "What planet are you on when you're playing, cuz it certainly aint here'. She could always read me like a book, God bless her soul. Even Billy Strings occasionally makes some pretty odd facial moves, when he is really cooking!

The Lawrence Welk Program was literally billed as “champagne music.” That was a deliberate choice to keep things light and buoyant in tbt performances. While it’s true that musicians were expected to keep on a happy face, it wasn’t quite universal. The biggest stars in the lineup tended to do that, but the supporting musicians didn’t to quite the same degree. But Lawrence Welk was aware that audiences REALLY liked those smiling faces, and he was able to capitalize on that and make a fortune that any musician would be happy to earn. The performances were all live and the performers had grueling rehearsal schedules that kept them at their peak constantly. The show was a TV product, so the image building was key to its success. Welk wasn’t the real conductor (there was little effort to conceal Cates actually conducting behind him) but he was the face of the orchestra. It was considered a family entertainment product, and the image of lightheartedness and innocence was guarded carefully, even at the unfortunate expense of the original “Champagne Lady.”

But at the same time there was Heifetz. That consummate violinist was often plagued (and still is) by complaints that he was “cold” and “unemotional” because he didn’t make facial expressions as he played. If you ever listened to his playing, it was laughable to make that claim, but the idea still persists. Now we have players who try to avoid that criticism by “emoting” on stage. To me, that’s even more artificial than anything you see in Lawrence Welk’s shows.

I think stage presence is extremely important for a performer. If you’re a TV personality, you have to pay attention to what an audience wants. For the Geritol crowd, that was a lot of smiling. If you’re not on TV, it’s important to look professional and to show confidence and mastery without making it mawkish. I don’t like the “emoting” at all, but neither do I like the deer-in-the-headlights look that some players have. There was a band I used to see frequently at folk events in central VA. The players were talented, but they had absolutely no stage presence. A friend interviewed them for a radio program and told me she felt like she had to prod them for signs of life because they were so detached. They desperately needed some direction in stage presence.

Jim and Jesse almost didn't smile in this one...

https://youtu.be/qKJbscNE2rk?list=RDqKJbscNE2rk

It ain't *real* bluegrass if you're smiling. You didn't see Bill or Earl or Lester or Kenny grinning like a mule eatin' briars.  

Jim and Jesse were the first professional Bluegrass band I ever saw. They didn't smile much but Alan Shelton did enough grinning for everybody!

There’s a video of F&S playing With Stringbean, and Earl ( and the whole band) is smiling like a kid on Christmas!

Twenty cents cotton.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=cPcw2DJE...E%3D&ra=m

quote:

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Originally posted by bacfire

It ain't *real* bluegrass if you're smiling. You didn't see Bill or Earl or Lester or Kenny grinning like a mule eatin' briars.  

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Jack Benny perfectly parodied that idea in his show. But of course a lot of bluegrass fiddlers were showmen who did all of kinds of things on stage to engage with the crowd, including smiling.

When I was growing up, my father competed in the Old Fiddlers' competition at the Iowa State Fair. One year we got snippets of the competition on tape when the news station did a short piece on it. There was one old fiddler who was painfully bad, but he was so invested in the showmanship that he actually winked at the camera when it got close. My family used to dig that tape out periodically and revel in the hilarity of that moment and another where a female contestant "earned" herself a prize by showing enough skin to distract the judges from her pitiful playing. I wish I had that tape now. It was a real gem.

The best at fiddling and smiling (and dancing): Mac Magaha

Roy Clark from the mid-50s:
youtu.be/EcP087GSfpw?is=bZQSfsFmNKWoUUcT

According to the blurb, it predates Earl Scruggs’ first appearance on television by two years and documents one of the earliest televised bluegrass banjo performances. I haven’t verified that information, but this at least provides some great evidence of a legendary player who was as much of a showman as a player.

Incidentally, Roy Clark has seen a resurgence in popularity among younger audiences recently as old videos have been discovered of him playing guitar, banjo, and fiddle. Although his showmanship is excellent, his technique is what has given him “god status.”

Well it sounds like I ain't the only one...lol. Yeah, crayons work for fiddling, but try not to get addicted to the taste.

Watch Doc Watson's mouth as he picks Black Mt Rag...it's this that my occupational therapy friends were talking about. This is neurons activing and the mouth is an involuntary side effect. youtu.be/jfTj2pN9g2A?si=i1QzrFH0Lpcz1Ijm

The fiddle faces for me were pure agony...lol. I got better later but never did learn to relax in front of a camera...those are both different than neurons firing away as you perform a task.

I grunt.

I'm not so sure about the chronology or claims in that Roy Clark video. Wikipedia says that "Town and Country Time" went on TV in 1955, the same year that Flatt and Scruggs began their "Grand Ole Opry" series.
I would agree that Roy Clark was "as much of a showman as a player." There are a lot of ignorant comments about that video, but someone finally commented that it was good, but no comparison to Earl Scruggs (who composed the tune). For one thing, Roy doesn't really know the tune.
Here's Earl with the Foggy Mountain Boys: youtu.be/5BlRmkhxZdM?si=iOwyUWCL0SrEtwPT Flint Hill Special
Its the difference between a flashy technician and a virtuoso artist. There is some smiling in that clip though, and more here when Paul Warren plays "Whoa Mule" on Earl's banjo:
youtu.be/JZKM_CCzFik?si=GNmZ684J3hbRxbtw Whoa Mule
Its all genuine though, not staged.

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

I'm not so sure about the chronology or claims in that Roy Clark video. Wikipedia says that "Town and Country Time" went on TV in 1955, the same year that Flatt and Scruggs began their "Grand Ole Opry" series.
I would agree that Roy Clark was "as much of a showman as a player." There are a lot of ignorant comments about that video, but someone finally commented that it was good, but no comparison to Earl Scruggs (who composed the tune). For one thing, Roy doesn't really know the tune.
Here's Earl with the Foggy Mountain Boys: youtu.be/5BlRmkhxZdM?si=iOwyUWCL0SrEtwPT Flint Hill Special
Its the difference between a flashy technician and a virtuoso artist. There is some smiling in that clip though, and more here when Paul Warren plays "Whoa Mule" on Earl's banjo:
youtu.be/JZKM_CCzFik?si=GNmZ684J3hbRxbtw Whoa Mule
Its all genuine though, not staged.

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My impression of Roy Clark is that he was an especially technically gifted guitar player who happened to be able to play the banjo and fiddle well enough that he could play them on stage with other professionals. I think I'd agree as far as comparing him to Scruggs in technique overall, but he did play in the style genuinely and didn't shy away from some antics on stage to entertain the audience.

On a side note, I wonder what year the Foggy Mountain Boys clip is from. Everyone says Richard Greene invented the chop in the mid-60s, but it sure looks like Paul Warren is doing it in that video (which looks like it's from the 50s). 

Well since my life is now just a matter of keeping up with chores from within the twilight zone, isolation and trying to keep our chins up, I do a lot of thinking to amuse myself. Yes, it is certainly amusing when a groundhog attempts to think.

Anyway, I was thinking more about this Lawrence Welk "syndrome," if I'm allowed to call it that...because it looks so phoney to me...I mean as a child...sort of artificial, forced, and clown like. But anyway, maybe it's because I could never smile while performing any sort of task. I remember trying to smile and play banjo (OT styles, not Scruggs) and I determined that was totally impossible. I can't remember what I thought about guitar...I just remember the banjo part of the equation.

But this hit home when I was a waitress, the only time I've done waiting on tables...and the manager there at the restaurant in Corbin was always getting on me for not smiling as I rushed around, table to table, taking orders, bringing food, bringing and extra straw, cleaning up a child's mess, pouring more coffee, making hot fudge sundaes or hot fudge cakes, salads, mopping the floor...etc....I mean, I was supposed to be smiling during all of this? Well he was always getting on me about that but i noticed he wasn't getting onto the other waitresses about it. So I looked at their faces as we all rushed about for 8 plus hours every evening...this was a summer job and during tourist season where they'd all pile in, coming in for a landing on their way south. We had people mobbed up in the lobby waiting for tables, etc. Well I don't think I ever got the hang of just running around with a big toothy grin on my face...I actually think I was not born a smiler by nature. Then in a very crowded restaurant, this guy marches in through the crowd, points his gun at another guy in line for a table, and shoots him, then runs out and away. So...yeah unexpected...this was before America came to be famous for mass shootings...although there had been a small handful and the crowd was expecting that...so mass panic hit...it's contagious and spread all around as total panic, fear, mayhem ripped through the crowded restaurant. I had been delivering hot fudge cakes I'd just made for a couple of pre teen boys who were just having fun harassing a busy waitress with their order...taking their time and making a lot of menu jokes, taking up too much of my time...I finally got their order, made the hot fudge cakes and was rushing back to their table and just looked up with the tray of hot fudge cakes in my hands as the guy's body slammed against the big window and slid down to the floor like a wet rag. Everybody screamed and yelled, "Gun...Run..." and they all rushed by me like a flood...while I was frozen and staring into the whipped cream on top of the hot fudge cakes. Seems I saw eternity itself revealed in the whipped cream and marischino cherries. I kinda don't remember much for a few seconds, but saw people barfing into the bus pans and just shear panic...I gotta hand it to the manager who always got all over me for not waalking around with a constant forced Lawrence Welk style smile...because he sprang into action.... stood on a chair and with a very strong voice started assigning people where to go...he gave people an area, assigned the bus boys to pick up the guy and lay him across the counter, I was one of the ones assigned to hand out free coffee to those sitting in the areas as directed by the manager...he winked at me and said..."Smile while you give them coffee." Ok...well I tried...but anyway...not sure I succeeded...my hands were shaking and the saucer and cup were jiggling so much I was primarily focused on trying not to spill coffee on everybody. Good lesson in smiling while focusing...I probably flunked. I'm not sure what happened to the guy who got shot...there was blood everywhere...I didn't hear what happened. I had to stop working there and get back to my studies shortly after that. Did I smile while I studied? No...because I had to take a statistics class (this was before calculators were affordable or eve portable), and my roommate and I cried all through our stat homework every night...lol...it was so painful.

No point in any of this, just thinking through my isolation here. But if I did smile while jiggling and shaking free coffee for panicky vacationers...would that have helped them? That phony smile from a panicky waitress? Would it make anybody appreciate music better if they saw a forced smile from a fiddler or piano player or singer, etc.? And what the heck does the harmonica player do about this? Just continuing on with crazy thoughts.

It’s all in eyebrows of the mouth organ player. Every time you see a shooting scene in a movie now, you probably just smile and say ,'that doesn't look real'. If you had your fiddle that day what would you have played for them with their free coffee. 

Music should be an aural experience. Letting the visusal take over, especially watching musicians faces is totally distracting and unrewarding. Should be avoided at all cost.

quote:

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Originally posted by drja39

Music should be an aural experience. Letting the visusal take over, especially watching musicians faces is totally distracting and unrewarding. Should be avoided at all cost.

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I know what you mean and I hate it when a musician's mannerisms are distracting just as much as you. But, that being said, I don't think live music is solely an aural experience. The visual aspect is important as well, and that's been true for centuries.

It's sometimes argued that Paganini was the first rock star because he did so much to make his performances dramatic. He stayed out of the sun to look as pale as possible and kept his hair long and wild so that he looked especially wraith-like. He did all kinds of things to add drama on stage and even started rumors about himself to get the public stirred up. Detractors accused him of being all show and no talent, but he was changing the world as he played and writing violin repertoire that was more technically brilliant than anything that had come before. Although not written for performance, his caprices have become standard fare for any serious violinist and the ability to play any of them well is a mark of accomplishment that distinguishes an intermediate player from an advanced one. After his death, someone who actually fit the description of the naysayers attempted to make a career for himself by putting on a show full of antics and calling himself "Paganini Redivivus." He was a laughably bad player and he quickly faded into obscurity, only to be remembered as a hack who tried to copy a master.

While the artificial smile can be cloying, other visual effects are more impressive. In the golden age of recording, players used a super high bow arm because it looked amazing on screen and it added excitement to the playing. Heifetz and Milstein popularized the "Heifetz Twist," which made players look even more commanding on stage. And then there was the frenzy that surrounded Heifetz's hands. Crowds would mob the stage just trying to get a closer look at them as he played because his talent seemed supernatural. And then there's the famous video recording of Ricci playing all 24 Paganini caprices (Ricci was the first player to ever record them all). While his performance was jaw-dropping to hear, there was something truly legendary about the way he strolled onto stage as though he owned it and launched straight into the first caprice without a hint of reticence.

Coming back to Old Time, from its beginning it was as much a visual experience as an aural one. Who could forget the famous photos of the early bands or the fiddlers, all dressed in their old-fashioned and nostalgic costumes designed to evoke the feeling of the old homestead? The genre was in some ways even more a holdover from vaudeville days. Bluegrass came into being just as television was taking off, and it leaned into the visual heavily as well. Then in the 70s, things went to such an extreme that the visual became far more important than the aural. Thankfully the direction shifted eventually to some degree. It wasn't too long ago, though, that someone posted a video that was promoted as Old Time but was mostly a hipster fantasy that looked like it was a music video from "Portlandia." The sound equipment was great, but it was clear that most of the budget went into the wardrobe department.

I think the statement you make is a little dangerous because it risks justifying the trend toward listening to recordings of musicians instead of going to hear them live. If it's just a matter of listening, why pay for a spot where you might not get a great view and you might not hear the best mix of sound? Why risk hearing a modern musician flub a piece live because they're used to being able to do hundreds of takes in a recording studio or artificially correct things with sound editing tools? Why bother to dress up, take time away from your day, and deal with parking if you can just put it on your phone and listen while you're mowing the lawn or cooking dinner? If the visual isn't given any weight, there's not enough to justify live performance. Maybe you could argue that live sound is better, but refer to my above scenario or consider that a lot of audiences don't agree with that sentiment anymore. The better the sound capture of recording equipment gets, the more attending things live feels like too much effort. Although I understand the feeling that live shows are just getting prohibitively difficult to attend, I wouldn't want their existence to be put at risk in any way. 

I dunno... faces can get in the way of the music (mine does for sure) but I'll make some exceptions, like for this guy (on the right), just giving 150% all the time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVkXWNytodI