Now, this is just me. Nobody else.
I found the, "what tunes you playing today" thread, to be a place/scene by default. Other forums have these "megathreads" with thousands of pages. It's sort of a natural progression. Like, why do parties seem to congregate in the kitchen? Folks just go where they go, naturally. Maybe we just need a thread and not a section? I dunno? I've really not posted much on YT, either. I'm into musical experiments right now.

Yup - the “whatcha playing now” thread feels like sitting around the kitchen table…add an audio snippet, imperfect recording, it’s ok. Your audio will scroll down and eventually get buried.

“Sound Off” feels like getting up on the stage (“Let the world hear you play!”) and like a permanent record which is searchable and indexed by title - yeek! 

NCnotes - What you say about the "Sound off" forum being permanent and searchable (because it was intended to showcase recordings posted in the "mp3 archive") is true if it were being used according to the guidelines. However people were just using it to post links to their YouTube channels (with some exceptions - for example Quincy also posts her videos to the video library too). As you said, these links will scroll down and eventually get buried, and then archived. They contribute nothing permanent to the forum.
Peggy is a perfect example of this. She has family responsibilities that she has said may limit her participation here. You might think you'll still be able to find her music on her homepage here, but if you look you'll see there's nothing there (well, one file of a backup track). If she has to leave she'll vanish without a trace, (unlike say Fiddlepogo, whose music files are still available even though he's long been gone). You could look at her YouTube channel, but I don't think its searchable or indexed.
If you look at the description of the "Sound Off" forum and Eric's introductory post, it was clearly intended to showcase mp3 files that had been uploaded to the site. When I suggested that's how it should be used, just as a matter of courtesy, there was a great clamor. If people want to make videos they can do as Quincy does and post them here (they have to have a YouTube link anyway, so its not too hard) and then post the link in "Sound off."
Only a small handful of people used the Sound Off forum anyway, and if they want a more casual approach then "What tunes are you playing today" is a good place, as you and farmerjones both suggested.
PS - Posting an mp3 file to your homepage here, and thus to the mp3 library, is not teally permanent. You can always edit or delete it, and prohibit downloading if you wish.
PPS - I just looked at your homepage here, and you have quite a few music files that you've contributed too. You don't have to post them to the Sound Off forum if you don't want to.

NCnotes - Just to be clear, if you post an audio file to your homepage here its automatically included in the searchable "mp3 library," although you can prohibit downloading or inclusion in the jukebox if you wish. You can post it in the Sound Off forum if you want (or any other section), but you don't have to. Just as an experiment I just listened to you playing the Giuliani etude on your guitar. The mp3 library is one of the underappreciated features of this site. There are lots of good versions of tunes there, although many are very old, from a different era in the life of the forum.
Its the same if you upload a video to your page, although it has to have a YouTube link. The video library is also underappreciated, with most submissions only getting a few views. I think its different in that only the YouTube link is really stored here, whereas for mp3s the actual file is on the site's server.

I think just reading this thread alone is enough to explain why no one cares enough about the Sound Off forum to make it viable. None of the comments make it sound like participating would be at all pleasant.

If you really want to share music, this is not a particularly versatile platform for doing so. It tends to be mostly a small group of people just playing for each other and cheering each other on. There are other ways to share more publicly and they don’t force you to use mp3, the worst file format for sound. Social media use has made it clear that those who listen to music prefer videos as well. That’s true even when it’s something like a podcast—episodes that are recorded as videos get more attention than audio-only podcasts. The audio-only format has been waning in popularity in the last six years, especially now that phones are used as small portable TVs everywhere. People are even watching videos while they’re driving now. Children are being raised with iPads as replacement adults, so it’s no surprise that the visual format is only increasing in popularity.

What does the Sound Off forum really add? Sure, there’s a potential for an archive of music, but does anyone really listen to any of it? Starting discussion threads about recordings is a way to try to draw attention to them, but the threads disappear as more are posted and pages themselves are archived, preventing further discussion.

Nothing about the section itself changed, and the format is still the same as well as the guidelines. No one has been prohibited from posting, whether it’s strictly following the ridiculous mp3 format or using YouTube, where videos can be linked easily and allow wider options. Go to any session or jam, and you’ll find people talking about recordings they like. If they want to look something up for reference, it’s just about always on YouTube. There are more options available, you can find more source recordings, and searching is pretty easy.

The irony of it all is that the whole thing started because one of the most frequent posters complained that there wasn’t enough going on. That comment drew attention to a thread that hasn’t really been getting that much attention before. That begged the questions: what is the point of the section, what has actually changed, and is it worth the effort to keep alive or redesign to make it more useful? A couple of the early comments addressed an elephant in the room: it hadn’t really changed at all in its activity, and it seemed to mostly be a feedback loop for the same group, with all the same comments and footnotes repeated ad infinitum.

After some debate about the importance of either maintaining it or trying to bring it to life, there was a bit of half-hearted attempt to keep things going. That brief period of posting to try to prove that the section wasn’t actually on life support seems to have burned out the few who posted rather quickly and then it got quieter than it was before the initial complaint. Even at the height of the discussion about it, the threads discussing the section were exponentially more popular than the Sound Off section itself.

I think there’s also a very large culture shift. In the days that people went on adventures to find obscure players and make field recordings, the players themselves weren’t putting much effort or attention into recording themselves. The only reason their playing was preserved was that someone tracked them down and shoved a microphone in their face and prodded them to perform. Many “folk” musicians didn’t really like the idea of making recordings and preferred to just play live. If you weren’t there, you missed it, and that suited local musicians. As recording technology developed, the famous musicians recorded and made their music globally available, but many of the folks at home were content to just sh in their locales and weren’t interested in being heard around the world. A number of people made names for themselves by collecting recordings and then submitting them to folk life institutions to be cataloged and the recordings formed the basis for an invented tradition of folk music. Fast forward to today, and now everyone seems to be obsessed with recording everything. There is no need for archivists anymore because people are bombarding everyone with their own recordings. While it was once difficult to find examples of certain playing styles or musicians because of their scarcity, now it’s hard to find things because there’s an overabundance of recordings to wade through to find anything useful. That abundance just isn’t in this site because the people who are truly active in recording themselves aren’t posting here (many of them may never have even heard of this forum).

GOod heavens, that’s a rather depressing summation!

Re: “ It tends to be mostly a small group of people just playing for each other and cheering each other on.” Isn’t that the way it is for most hobby musicians? Whether you’re at your local OT jam or community orchestra or church choir, that’s how it is…and that’s how it was for many legendary fiddlers and folk players as well. NOthing wrong with that!

If you haven’t got a group to play with, maybe you do need some cheering on and encouragement and the feeling that somebody is listening to you. I enjoy listening to the music of people I ‘know’! THe human connection is a big part of music, for me.

First off, check out the Nux B-11 Pro...wireless mic for Fiddle/violin! I own the guitar/bass version made by Nux and I'll never use a patch cable again. But seriously check out. A wireless, rechargeable unit that uses a mic and access to EQ and Effects! I wish I was good enough to own one but here is a good review



These 2 are some of my favorite to hear

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

GOod heavens, that’s a rather depressing summation!

Re: “ It tends to be mostly a small group of people just playing for each other and cheering each other on.” Isn’t that the way it is for most hobby musicians? Whether you’re at your local OT jam or community orchestra or church choir, that’s how it is…and that’s how it was for many legendary fiddlers and folk players as well. NOthing wrong with that!

If you haven’t got a group to play with, maybe you do need some cheering on and encouragement and the feeling that somebody is listening to you. I enjoy listening to the music of people I ‘know’! THe human connection is a big part of music, for me.

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If that's already the way "hobby musicians" experience music, then what function does the Sound Off really serve? Is it not then just an unnecessary iteration that doesn't even have the benefit of being live and in-person? If the human connection is so important, does this not directly go against it by keeping people at a distance and reverencing the recording instead of the experience in the moment?

I don't entirely agree that that was the way it was historically. People often played music alone for their own entertainment or just with family. Some played together as a pastime, some played for audiences at dances, some played merely as a way to sell things. Just as now, there wasn't a universal reason for playing, and being a hobbyist was no description of the other people one played with. 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

If the human connection is so important, does this not directly go against it by keeping people at a distance and reverencing the recording instead of the experience in the moment?

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No. The human connection comes in many forms. There is no "keeping people at a distance" inherent in the Sound Off forum. Sharing tunes casually is one way to have human connection. It's not stealing bandwidth from other forums or anything, so why put it down?

Well thanks for all those answers, guys. I appreciate that. So it seems if FHO, or some such music forum is your primary place where you want to share your music with others, then you would want mp3s on here. But for me, personally, I like YouTube mainly because I have had no one to play with since I moved up to this area. I mean I did get into the bluegrass circles a little for a while, but it's done in such a way that I don't enjoy...formal, copycatting the pros, sounding as close to professionals as possible, like a juke box human...lol...and just really not fun for me.

And I guess I came from a background of people sitting around a fire and playing and cheering each other on...laughing, talking, kids and dogs running around...just having fun together and enjoying each others' music. Also there were places where I could 'perform," as amateuristic as it was...I still enjoyed times or occasions when I was invited to play for people on an amateur stage.

For me, Youtube is my jam session with myself, unfortunately (and by the way, the greatest compliments I ever got were when people commented that they played along...I mean, wow, that's almost REAL...lol. But YouTube is public, so that if someone I know doesn't get onto music forums or FHO for instance, they can easily find what i've done if they get curious. Also, I'm always thinking if at some point for whatever reason I can no longer play, I would have all those hundreds of videos to remember my own fun playing. And then I think of my family...I don't have contact with extended family , but they, who don't know me at all, plus my immediate family, might one day want to just listen to those...like I guess I'm saying when I'm all dead and gone...could be a matter of posterity at some point. My grandson's kids might find it interesting to hear what ol' granny did as a hobby. Kind of like giving a quilt that ol' granny made.

And I remember the happy times on the Sound off Forum when we had the Virtual Fiddle Festival going on where lots of people shared either mp3s or YouTubes of their playing of some particular tune...and yes, we all cheered each other on. It ain't no fiddle university...it's fun with friends, online friends.

Anyway, interesting to hear everybody's thoughts on it. I haven't played at my kitchen table with friends in real life, but normally around the woodstove of whoever had the biggest space or outside with a fire going and the potluck and kids and all kinds of fun. That's what YouTube replaces for me...FHO, being a more closed system, is the place where I share YouTubes. Besides that they are pretty much sunk down at the bottom of the billions of YouTube droplets that make up the YouTube Sea...and only someone who knows me enough would ever find. But I have a lot of fun multi-track recording since I'm alone with music at this point. YouTube is the perfect place for me to share or just preserve stuff I enjoy working on.

Recent times have come very close to the day when I can no longer enjoy my hokey hobby of multi track recording, so at least I feel better about that in that Youtube is my memory of what I've worked on and had fun with, and like I said, it can just stay there for the future. It's given me a lot of fun, and it might be about over with now, but I sure hope not. I hope I can get back to it. I did finish (more like get tired of messin' with ) my Morning has Broken today. Not sure if I should put that one out there on YouTube or not...I'm so rusty at all of it. It shows, too. And there's no fiddle so I won't bore people with it here. But i'll let that one sit on my computer for a while and figure out how to proceed from here.

Thanks for the opinions. You know mine is always free...lol.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

If the human connection is so important, does this not directly go against it by keeping people at a distance and reverencing the recording instead of the experience in the moment?

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No. The human connection comes in many forms. There is no "keeping people at a distance" inherent in the Sound Off forum. Sharing tunes casually is one way to have human connection. It's not stealing bandwidth from other forums or anything, so why put it down?

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Because the idea that it's really human connection like anything else is just a harmful illusion. I think the pandemic taught a hard lesson that virtual is no substitute for real.

Just read the previous comment and you can see how much isolation exists. Sitting at home and making a recording, then posting it online is nothing like playing for or with other people. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, but to pretend it's the same thing is rather sad, and I think it comes across very clearly.

As people have turned to using the virtual space to "connect," mental health has rapidly declined and people have become more miserable than ever. I read comments here from members who share about missing the in-person playing they once did. Turning to the Sound Off forum is an attempt to recreate that feeling, but it's far too synthetic to be effective. It was not too long ago that I recall a member getting so morose that several people were seriously suggesting professional intervention to mitigate possible harm. And it seems to me that, whatever the purpose of the section might have been, it's been largely used, not truly as a method to connect players, but as a method to seek personal validation in a sterile environment.

If it was truly such a great resource, why did it completely crumble the second any questions were asked? Why did the same people who claimed to love it put it to sleep? I've yet to hear a single compelling argument in its favor. The post-mortem analysis just keeps getting redone elsewhere as though digging the corpse up one more time will reveal a startling clue that was missed each time before. If all the energy devoted to trying to resurrect the section were devoted to simply playing the instrument or learning more repertoire or seeking out other musicians to play in person, I believe the results would be more fruitful.

While you might say that the site is an archive of sorts, its existence is tenuous. Given that it's unclear whether the site is being actively maintained, everything could go dark overnight if the domain didn't get renewed. The permanence of the online archive is somewhat illusory. I've always considered this site as a virtual discussion place. It's not a reference library, so its value is not so much in what's archived but in what's being actively discussed. 

I guess those of us who have no musical friends to play with should sit in the closet and just give it up?

I would love to have musical community around me...but my reality is that I don't have that, not since 1989 when we relocated to a place that's far more interested in attending concerts, listening to Cds of their favorites, and if they ever play, just trying their best to sound like their favorite Cds. That's ok. That's their culture. My culture was much more home style playing in, for, and with community. That's not up here. I agree virtual is not real, but if it's all we've got, it's better than just giving it all up.

And I should say again, there was a time when the Soundoff Forum was booming with activity, shared activity, and it was a lot of fun.  But on forums, people come and go...get different jobs, have life changes, etc.  I don't know if any of those folks are still around at this point.  It doesn't have to be a show-n-tell...could be a come-along and let's enjoy some similar stuff together.

Really, FHO has changed in a lot of ways in recent years, not just the Soundoff Forum.  It reminds me of when I went to visit Dwight Diller...I was apologetic about my instruments being sorta cheapo variety, and he laughed and said one of the things he noticed when doing his workshops was the ones who had the best stuff and were so obssessed with a persnickety instrument usually had the most trouble resonating with the music...lol.  I wouldn't go that far, I know people who can afford the best have great appreciation for the best instruments and I'm sure they also love the music the same way.  But it just brings that initial conversation with Dwight to mind, sometimes...lol...wondering what he would say a lot of times.

Re: “ Sitting at home and making a recording, then posting it online is nothing like playing for or with other people. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, but to pretend it's the same thing is rather sad, and I think it comes across very clearly”

I don’t think anybody is pretending it’s the same thing?! You can have both online musical community AND real-life - in fact I think that’s common for most people doing any activity these days. I.e. I have clients I have had coffee with in town, and also a few clients I never met and seem like “online entities.” You can be into rock-climbing and do it with your buddies, but also geek out on a rock-climbing forum in your free time and maybe share climb videos…it’s all good…

PEggy, I think it’s cool that the Sound Off used to be a hopping place! I guess we are sitting in the shadow of the old FHO…
And I’d like to hear your “Morning Has Broken”, love that song. You always have great harmonies.

*edit to add: At least the bots seem to have abandoned their mysterious mission!

Considering all the verbiage posted on sundry fiddle and music related topics on here, I only use the Sound Off forum to judge whether posters actually know how to play fiddle, or not.

I appreciate that NC...Morning has Broken still sits idly on my computer...just not sure. I didn't do what I'd hoped to do with it, but my time was very chopped up over several days, which isn't the way my brain works...lol. I think we've both said before do it all, skipping meals and sleep...just get it done.

Well anyway, maybe some people think it's sad to sit home and play on a multi track recording...ok...it's not the ideal way to play your music. But the saddest thing to me is when people try to "own" music by discouraging other amateurs who love to play with their heart and soul, more than anything else. And to discourage their love of playing, to me, is a real musical transgression. It hurts me to see anyone do this, and I hope, as much as I dislike so many forms of music, I sincerely hope I've never discouraged others who love to play. Hey, I've had some recent practice with grandson's love of heavy metal and all that loud electric guitar playing he loves...I'm happy for him. I don't get it, myself, but I can see what it does for him, and that's a heartwarming thing to see.  Whenever a person works hard to play and loves to play, that's just great to see, and we should all be encouraging each other along our way.

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

I guess those of us who have no musical friends to play with should sit in the closet and just give it up?

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That was not my argument at all. If you read through my comments carefully, you'll see that the claim was that online community is not real community. It's artificial, and that's why people who lean into the idea that it's a replacement end up so depressed. That is not a description of  what one should do alone. I have pointed out that it's not entirely true that music was always played as a community pursuit anyway. Although  a certain demographic likes to describe folk music as though it's a big sing-along for whole communities, it has been both a public and a personal pastime for its entire existence. A lot of the people who came to be revered because someone made a field recording by hunting them down lived in almost complete isolation and enjoyed music by playing for themselves or immediate family. Some played alone unless they were called upon to lead dances. The idea of musicians showing up to jam together is a relatively modern one. It was common for centuries for a dance to be led by a single musician, usually a fiddler.

I didn't suggest anyone give up playing--quite the opposite. I floated the idea that all the time spent whining about what everyone else was doing could be invested in playing and enjoying the instrument, something that could be done whether anyone else was in the room or not. My point was that investing MORE time in playing would be both personally and publicly beneficial.

If it's true that the forum has lost its energy, is shouting "STOP BEING QUIET!" at everyone the best way to encourage more participation? It apparently hasn't worked the last umpteen times. In fact, the activity has decreased overall. If the forum is so moribund, wouldn't it be more merciful to allow it to slip into a coma and die peacefully than to keep kicking it every time the eyelids droop?

Thanks for the musicology argument that we are not permitted to do anything musically except for the same way it was always done before our time, according to the musicologists. And the armchair psychology is pretty lame. And I must say, you have definitely left your mark on the forum.

Correct me if I'm wrong...there are titles and instructions on how to use this board


Music Theory
For theory-related questions which aren't related to a specific "playing style"

Me? I think that means you can post, inquire, question or identify notes, tab, dots, music in general that has something to do with playing the violin/fiddle.

Fiddle Building, Setup, and Repair
Dedicated to building new fiddles or fixing/setting up existing ones.

Me? This seems pretty easy. Problems with the structural integrity of the violin/fiddle, set ups, noises, attempting to build or repair...seems pretty easy to me!

Swap Shop: Buy, Sell, Trade
For the discussion of Classifieds ad listings. Be sure to read the Swap Shop

Me? DUH!!!!

Product Reviews and Shopping Advice
In the market for a new fiddle or something fiddle related? Post here to get advice on your purchase. This is also the place to post reviews of fiddle-related products and find out how much you could sell a used item for.

Me?? Pretty much the same...DUH!

Sound Off! (for Fiddle Audio File Posts)
Let the world hear you play! Upload MP3s to your myHangout page, then post a link here!

Me??? This is the infamous Hot topic here. Seems like if you're into MP3s, which were invented in 1991, this is where you'd post MP3s only of yourself, your band, duo etc. I guess it's like your photo collection on here. You can upload to your collection of Mp3s on here and then share in a board. Violin/Fiddle....sounds like this is where you share your MP3s, not video or alternate links.

Notation/Tab/Recording/Chords/Lyrics Requests
This is the place to make your requests known...be sure to post your legal tabs in the tab archive.

Me? For those who need, seems like there is an archive to pull from or I imagine you can post answers and replies to people looking for tunes? This one seems pretty easy.

Other Fiddle-Related Topics
Got something fiddle-related that won't fit into the other categories? Post it here.

Me? Seems like this should be for anything that involves fiddle or violin?? Playing, Videos, MP3s, Bluegrass/Old Time discussions etc...as long as it's Violin or Fiddle related, you should post here. Since I don't post myself, this is where I tend to share the most but only if it involves the fiddle or violin.

Off-Topic (Not Fiddle Related)
Got something to post that isn't related to fiddles or this site? As long as it ain't objectionable, post it here. Religious and political topics are not allowed.

Me? My favorite section. Mainly because I don't have a ton to offer when it comes to fiddle or violin. Here and there but I def use this to share video links. For me, that's the easiest. I'd love to share photography content here but much like the MP3 upload, it's a pain. But that's me. I try to keep a positive mindset when coming onto the FHO. It's a great resource and I've learned a lot.

I think in the end, some of the responses can be a bit much. Other times read out of context. There is a lot of knowledge here, don't get me wrong but that wisdom seems to flex some times and I get it. But in the end, it's just music and people do a good job at keeping this site running. Like I've said, I refrain from posting. I remember the couple times I did, it was applauded and also cut a part. I get it. It was wrong but it was something. So, maybe in 20 years if this site is still active, I might have the nerve to post my fiddle faddling. Cheers!

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Thanks for the musicology argument that we are not permitted to do anything musically except for the same way it was always done before our time, according to the musicologists. And the armchair psychology is pretty lame. And I must say, you have definitely left your mark on the forum.

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What is traditional music without tradition?  The Old Time genre has been, since its inception, backward-looking. Its appeal is in its sense of nostalgia. A group of musicians who also played jazz or classical or whatever else was popular at the time would get together, put on costumes that were designed to look like hillbilly attire, and carry on in a manner that would paint a picture of life on the farm in another era for city dwellers. When archivists started making field recordings, they sought out old fiddlers and recorded them. Then those recordings all got lumped in with Old Time. With the folk revival, a group of people started digging up old recordings and trying to learn from surviving musicians before they died so they could resurrect the old form of music that had mostly disappeared. Although I would argue that the folk revival in many ways got things wrong in its reimagining of folk music, it was still another backward-looking movement. It gave rise to a new-age version of folk music that was more respectable in high-brow coffee shops.

When the use of history or the appeal to musicology is presented as though it's a threat, I have to say it's almost laughable. The greatest way to inhibit development is to limit reading and education. It's mind-boggling that ignorance is so staunchly championed as though it's a defense.

I don't recall describing what was permitted or not permitted. I hardly have the kind of authority to make such weighty decisions, so I have made some suggestions. Since you seem to desire to beat the dead horse so, I can't and won't stop you.

Your constant pedantic "lessons" are really tiring, my friend. I've been playing and enjoying folk music since 1963. My brother, I've known many ancient backwoods old timers along the way and they would all break your established laws you present for the folk world to follow. I'm glad those were the early influences of my playing and not some of the people I know now. It would have destroyed my spirit as a young child learning on her own. Music BELONGS to all of us, can you possibly bend your mind enough to get that?

And I hope I'm not the only one who remembers how much fun the sound off forum used to be. It wasn't at all controversial...people just played stuff and shared it any ol' way and we all enjoyed seeing what each other was up to and at times joining in with our own versions too. Some people's fiddle teachers even joined in the fun as their student practiced up on some particular tune going around. Nobody complained, nobody, until you-know-who came to take over the forum.

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

And I hope I'm not the only one who remembers how much fun the sound off forum used to be. It wasn't at all controversial...people just played stuff and shared it any ol' way and we all enjoyed seeing what each other was up to and at times joining in with our own versions too. Some people's fiddle teachers even joined in the fun as their student practiced up on some particular tune going around. Nobody complained, nobody, until you-know-who came to take over the forum.

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It seems the memory of the past changes with the wind. Although you're now complaining about how peaceful and non-controversial it was, you have said the exact opposite previously. Do you remember your old complaints about how there used to be more passionate fights over bowing in the past and how heated people could get? Have you forgotten that a lot of people left the forum back then because they considered it too divisive and amateurish (before the time of "you-know-who")? If I talk to someone who was a member in the past and left the forum, I tend to get some pretty negative and bitter views of the site.

And again (and again and again...), the threads about the forum falling asleep were your complaints, not mine. The first comments that expressed negative views toward the section came from two other members. I wouldn't have said anything about it at all had those comments not been written. Once the cat was out of the bag, it just made sense to address it in more detail.

Your yearly average for posts is 934. Mine is 439.  Which of us is trying to take control of the forum ?

Thanks for keeping those stats and remembering all my posts...now I know how much you care.

Here's the difference in what you claim to be proof of how nutty and flip-flopping I am: the Sound off Forum was alive and well with people who felt free to share music with other folks on here with similar interests, goals, experience, etc. The other forums were booming with discussion. The bowing discussions often got hot...but I think the top two or three who felt strongly about it were friends after all the heated discussions...after all, it was bowing, not nuclear proliferation, they were discussing.

I was new at self-taught fiddling back then, and those discussions did perk my interest and help me explore how I wanted to find my way with fiddling on my own. I learned a lot reading them. I tried a lot of the things I'd read. And after about 16 years now of fiddling around with fiddle, i've gone through many flip flops in my own approach to bowing, and I believe the discussion catapulted my own playing by several years.

We don't have as many bowing discussions now, but I have settled into my own way, which sort of combines elements and ideas of both sides. But these were not heated arguments over what happened on the Sound off forum...these were heated discussions from long-time OT fiddlers' about the preferred way to deal with bowing, the heart and soul of OT, maybe other types of fiddling too.

You seem to have missed all of that in your careful stat and content gathering. D- on that one, brother.

If people spent the time they use to post these pedantic responses, no matter how erudite, in practicing fiddle, we might have more videos in the Sound Off form that were worth listening to. Some seem to play better keyboard then fiddle. And some have no evidence of playing fiddle at all. Just sayin'.

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Thanks for keeping those stats and remembering all my posts...now I know how much you care.

Here's the difference in what you claim to be proof of how nutty and flip-flopping I am: the Sound off Forum was alive and well with people who felt free to share music with other folks on here with similar interests, goals, experience, etc. The other forums were booming with discussion. The bowing discussions often got hot...but I think the top two or three who felt strongly about it were friends after all the heated discussions...after all, it was bowing, not nuclear proliferation, they were discussing.

I was new at self-taught fiddling back then, and those discussions did perk my interest and help me explore how I wanted to find my way with fiddling on my own. I learned a lot reading them. I tried a lot of the things I'd read. And after about 16 years now of fiddling around with fiddle, i've gone through many flip flops in my own approach to bowing, and I believe the discussion catapulted my own playing by several years.

We don't have as many bowing discussions now, but I have settled into my own way, which sort of combines elements and ideas of both sides. But these were not heated arguments over what happened on the Sound off forum...these were heated discussions from long-time OT fiddlers' about the preferred way to deal with bowing, the heart and soul of OT, maybe other types of fiddling too.

You seem to have missed all of that in your careful stat and content gathering. D- on that one, brother.

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Another nutty and flip-floppy post. Thank you for so forcefully proving my points! 
 

As you describe it, you were formerly open to learning from others with differing perspectives when you were new to playing the fiddle and you cherry-picked bits and pieces from multiple sources as a way of teaching yourself about playing. But now that you've decided that you've picked enough cherries, you're calling it your own style. Any claimed open-mindedness has disappeared. If anything that doesn't follow your idea of fiddling is discussed, you discount it because it's not one of the cherries you picked, therefore it's of no use because you figured out your own way of playing that pleases you. If you feel you're losing ground, you name drop a famous musician and pretend that you share the same philosophy, and by suggestion, the same skill set.

You're right about something--my data gathering is careful. It comes from discussions with members of the forum and people who have either left it or read it as observers. I've shared broad strokes of the comments. Some of them have been a little too biting to quote directly, but they consistently tell a very different story from the Kumbaya campfire sing-along picture you paint. I've also read some archived threads and found them to be a lot less congenial than you suggest (not to mention full of bad information).

Heated arguments started about the Sound Off for a few reasons. First, you accused the section, which had shown no real change in years, of going to sleep and needing to be awakened. This elicited some genuine surprise given its oddity. The posting frequency hadn't really changed, nor had the group of players posting. It seemed as though you had stopped posting for a minute and then accused everyone of being too quiet for not immediately filling in the gap.
 

Second, it started a discussion about the antiquated format of the section and whether it made any sense to follow what was set up decades ago and never updated.  

Third, to prove a point, I posted a video and started a discussion about it knowing that it would get torn apart on the forum for not being "the right way." I just didn't share that I was expecting  that response and I waited for all the expected venom to use it as proof that engagement was higher when people (yourself definitely included) could use it as a way to attack what they didn't like. Views and comments exploded, making those threads exponentially more popular than the others. But because the truth came out, you had to flip flop and defend the same things you claimed had put the section to sleep. 

Fourth, a couple of comments laid bare some of the problems of the section that kept it on a plateau. They opened the door for a frank discussion of the section and a more realistic assessment of what it was what it might be. And one comment even indirectly accused you of putting the section to sleep yourself. That was the tilling point because it directly addressed the issues you'd unwittingly raised and challenged the narrative you'd constructed about it. You haven't gotten the responses you wanted, so you've just repeated the same arguments hoping you'll get whatever answer you wanted the first time. 
 

Fifth, it has been suggested multiple times that the quality of musicianship in the posts is not of the kind that merits preservation. I've heard that many times outside the forum. That's a little more extreme than my own take on it, but it is an opinion that's been shared. 
 

It's also true that I care very much--about fiddling. I really hate to think that genres will disappear or that younger generations will encounter them and want to keep them at arms' length. So yes, I do think preserving something is important for the future. I'd like to think that if another revival happens, it'll be more thoughtfully done using better information and with results that will appeal to a wider audience. Fiddlers often get a reputation for being illogically determined to play badly and defend bad playing as though it's good and for being unwilling to acknowledge any differing technique, approach, or equipment choice. I'd like to challenge that, but you're not helping.