Wow StG ...... Sheeeew, He seems to ..... IDK, move very quickly between 1 down 3 up then 1 up and 3 down then saw stroke. He surely "grew" into the tune over time. Ther 1937 recording is the most "decipherable" if you will. I expect that I do not have the patience to put this on slow down mode and truly try to fiqure it. I am certainly curious as to what the serious OT players have to say about this. Play on people. R/

I'm terrible at analyzing bowing patterns, but I've been fascinated with Smith's sound for a long time. He plays a good many two-note slurs...DDU and UUD...but often on opposite sides of the beat. I don't think there is any real pattern bowing in his playing. He constantly changes his patterns to whatever it takes to make a phrase work out.

Howdy Forrester once said that Smith got most of his accents with his left hand instead of the bow. That was enlightening for me. Smith subtly varied the space between the notes with his left hand fingers rather than creating rhythm with the bow. When I try to mentally isolate the fiddle in his recordings, I also perceive that he's relying more on his backup to provide the beat of the tune, while his fiddle lines sort of float over the top. Not that his playing doesn't have a rhythmic pulse, just not like in a downbow-driven style.

At the same time, he doesn't seem to me to be the kind of stereotypical longbow that I've heard from guys like John Hartford, Bob Wills, and Ralph Blizard, and neither do the Texas contest guys. Seems to be moreso that Arthur used a lot of three note slurs that went across strings and the older school thought of that as longbowing. What do you think? 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bacfire

I'm terrible at analyzing bowing patterns, but I've been fascinated with Smith's sound for a long time. He plays a good many two-note slurs...DDU and UUD...but often on opposite sides of the beat. I don't think there is any real pattern bowing in his playing. He constantly changes his patterns to whatever it takes to make a phrase work out.

Howdy Forrester once said that Smith got most of his accents with his left hand instead of the bow. That was enlightening for me. Smith subtly varied the space between the notes with his left hand fingers rather than creating rhythm with the bow. When I try to mentally isolate the fiddle in his recordings, I also perceive that he's relying more on his backup to provide the beat of the tune, while his fiddle lines sort of float over the top. Not that his playing doesn't have a rhythmic pulse, just not like in a downbow-driven style.

---

soppinthegravy - Not to restate the obvious, but at least in that film clip he uses long bows for the long notes, and a combination of short slurs and saw strokes for the rest.
Regarding bacfire's comment about his backup (the Delmore Brothers) I realized some time ago that Arthur Smith's recordings may be one of the foundations of later Texas and contest style fiddling, with the six string and tenor guitars. I think in contests today there is almost always a tenor guitar along with one or more six strings, and the rhythmic pulse seems similar.
I thought I might have played "Turkey in the Straw" at least a little like Arthur Smith, but I guess not. Here's an example, in case you're interested.

Being a serious  non-OT fiddler, it occurs to me this sounds like one of many precursors to Bluegrass.

His playing appears more freely than most Old Time, the key is IMO in the left hand.

A long as you're looking for one, single bowing pattern (of course there are bits an pieces of it, nothing starts from a vacuum), you'll probably won't find any...

If I'd were to figure this one out, I'd work beat for beat, note for note. Listening for the accents, then decide whether it comes from left- or right hand.

Anyway, that's how I learned to play Bluegrass (and beyond) banjo and mandolin.

The reason I'm having fiddle lessons is because of the mechanics of making the tone, the fiddle is way more difficult than my other Bluegrass instruments.

All be it virtually impossible to reach the level I'm at with banjo and mandolin (I simply won't have life time enough), I'm enjoying the journey immensely.

quote:

---

Originally posted by soppinthegravy

I'm trying to figure out Fiddlin' Arthur Smith's bowing on Turkey in the Straw. What are your thoughts?

Video example
youtube.com/watch?v=TJJo4WtR3vs
Audio example 1
youtube.com/watch?v=2wXIvG_yIiI
Audio Example 2
youtube.com/watch?v=zBPr2eRqlYI (Starts around 12:26)
Audio example 3
youtube.com/watch?v=Q9VOKDQYSiI (1st song)

---

" What are your thoughts?"......Arthur Smith ...FANTASTIC!

I listened to the recordings slowed down. (you can do that in the You Tube settings wheel) Its sounds (to me) like continuous strings of 8th notes are played with the common shuffle patterns-DDudUU and duDDudUU. The broken phrases sound like variations of single bows and 2 note slurs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by UsuallyPickin

Wow StG ...... Sheeeew, He seems to ..... IDK, move very quickly between 1 down 3 up then 1 up and 3 down then saw stroke. He surely "grew" into the tune over time. Ther 1937 recording is the most "decipherable" if you will. I expect that I do not have the patience to put this on slow down mode and truly try to fiqure it. I am certainly curious as to what the serious OT players have to say about this. Play on people. R/

---

I also watched and listened.. Yep, his bow is going up and down..at an angle, with a relaxed wrist... 

Maybe this will help? In the video, the longest uninterrupted shot of him fiddling appears to be roughly from 0:57 to 1:12.

I'm not looking to boil his playing down to a single bowing pattern. I'm just looking to see if there are discernable patterns in his bowing. I have notice |2222| and |211211| and either |11114| or |1115| (Maybe both) Seems like there are instances where he plays the phrase on the D string GDEGD on a single downstroke followed by CBA on the G string on a single upstroke, |53|, but I may be wrong. Does He strike y'all as a guy who had a pretty consistent way of bowing a certain tune or that he was one of those guys who didn't bow it the same way from one performance to another? I've heard people say Ralph Blizard "never plays a tune the same way once", and I have heard other fiddlers where their melodic variations may change with the left hand, but they keep a consistent bowing pattern progression. One of the fiddlers I knew said he didn't plan out his bowing, which contrasts with some teachers I have seen/heard. 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB-1

Being a serious  non-OT fiddler, it occurs to me this sounds like one of many precursors to Bluegrass.

His playing appears more freely than most Old Time, the key is IMO in the left hand.

A long as you're looking for one, single bowing pattern (of course there are bits an pieces of it, nothing starts from a vacuum), you'll probably won't find any...

If I'd were to figure this one out, I'd work beat for beat, note for note. Listening for the accents, then decide whether it comes from left- or right hand.

Anyway, that's how I learned to play Bluegrass (and beyond) banjo and mandolin.

The reason I'm having fiddle lessons is because of the mechanics of making the tone, the fiddle is way more difficult than my other Bluegrass instruments.

All be it virtually impossible to reach the level I'm at with banjo and mandolin (I simply won't have life time enough), I'm enjoying the journey immensely.

 

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by soppinthegravy

I'm not looking to boil his playing down to a single bowing pattern. I'm just looking to see if there are discernable patterns in his bowing. I have notice |2222| and |211211| and either |11114| or |1115| (Maybe both) Seems like there are instances where he plays the phrase on the D string GDEGD on a single downstroke followed by CBA on the G string on a single upstroke, |53|, but I may be wrong. Does He strike y'all as a guy who had a pretty consistent way of bowing a certain tune or that he was one of those guys who didn't bow it the same way from one performance to another? I've heard people say Ralph Blizard "never plays a tune the same way once", and I have heard other fiddlers where their melodic variations may change with the left hand, but they keep a consistent bowing pattern progression. One of the fiddlers I knew said he didn't plan out his bowing, which contrasts with some teachers I have seen/heard. 

---

This is a watershed between Bluegrass and more primitive styles. The right hand follows the left (while still keeping the rhythm going!).

It's like the answer as to the banjo beginner question 'how do I add the melody notes to the right hand rolls?'  It couldn't be simpler: 'You don't '...

In a similar vein, adapting the bowing to what the left hand is doing, is the key to Smith's approach,  to me a clear precursor to later Bluegrass styles. That sometimes descernible right hand picking (or bowing) patterns occur makes life easier, but it's not the starting point.

As soon as you'd get that, you're on your way (by no means easy, but immensely worthwhile).

I still remember the first time I heard old time music live. Not knowing what it was, I concluded I must have heard people trying to play Bluegrass but failing miserably. Meanwhile I've learned that it's a genre on it's own and that's what it's supposed to sound like. Obviously, it's not what tickles my musical senses....

Here's the issue, people assuming they already know what Smith is doing  instead of taking the time to look at how he plays the tunes phrase by phrase.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB-1

 

adapting the bowing to what the left hand is doing, is the key to Smith's approach,