Over on the banjo hangout there is a banjo fiddle maker that puts out quality instruments and he is a great guy. Zack Hoyt. He is very approachable and I think well worth your while to check out his work.

Having built several banjos, at a point you have to decide if you want to “build” or “play”.
They are not mutually exclusive but sort of. Time is limited and you can buy all kinds of decent cheap fiddles.
Best wishes either way.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ben Taylor

Hi, new user on FH here. I’m starting to think seriously about making my first violin. My intention is to make a fiddle that would be primarily used to play Old Time and other folk styles.

Never having done this before, right now I’m looking at some Guarneri models to base my mould upon. I think my essential question at this stage is: Should I simply follow the pattern for whichever model I settle on and just make that instrument, or should I perhaps make any small tweaks to the design to A: make it my own, or B: make it more suitable for Old Time?

I’m aware sound/tone is pretty subjective but happy to hear from any experienced makers who may have gone down this rabbit hole and come out the other side with any conclusions.

Making a fiddle is a bit daunting but I already make banjos so am pretty comfortable with the idea and excited to give it a try.

Cheers, Ben

---

Hello Ben,

Welcome to the forum! I'm glad to hear you're interested in violin making. There are some excellent resources available to help you get started. There's a very steep learning curve, and the skill set for making violins is a very specialized one. 
 

For a first instrument, I would recommend picking a pattern that interests you and just doing your best to follow it. There is so much complexity in violin design, and when you're learning to work with the hand tools, the focus is best placed on understanding how the tools work and how to work with the wood. The theoretical side of making is fascinating and can be a lifetime of study, but that follows best upon a practical foundation. 
 

Even making a faithful copy of an instrument, the copy will still be quite different from the original. Makers sometimes make hundreds of fiddles on the same mold and end up with quite different results because wood is so variable, because there are bound to be some idiosyncrasies in the process, and there are still lots of avenues for exploration even using the same internal form.

Of course, in-person instruction is the best way to learn, and there are workshops and schools that teach this way (three major schools in the country and a few workshops in the summer hosted by makers. Joe Thrift, a respected maker and Old Time fiddler, has taught numerous classes, for example). If you're lucky and find an available maker, sometimes a traditional apprenticeship is an option.  
 

There are more high quality violin making books than ever before. The Courtnall and Johnson book is widely regarded as one of the best. More recently there was a book by Brian Derber. There are some older books with great information, although some of them are not completely reliable.

The Strad magazine has put out a series of posters over the years with technical drawings and scans of the instruments as well as full size pictures that provide all the reference material you need to make a mold and a set of templates. Many makers use these. You can even photocopy them (make absolutely sure your copy is exact!) and then cut parts out and attach them to the stock for your templates so that you have scribe lines.

There are a lot of tools you'll need for the work. If you're sure that you want to make a violin, I would recommend seeking out good quality edge tools. The quality of your steel will have a direct impact. But even more importantly, learn to grind and sharpen edge tools so that you can get them unbelievably sharp and maintain them. You can buy newly made tools from a number of suppliers or you can seek out vintage tools. Remember that tools will usually not be ready to use straight out of the box and will need some setup. You may need some advice there for setting them up. 
 

You can get some very good quality wood and decent tools from International Violin at very reasonable prices. They also sell basic varnish and varnishing supplies.

There are lots of online videos, but you have to be careful with them, as many are even more unreliable than the worst books. Davide Sora has made a lot of high quality videos for YouTube that give some useful information.

There are endless ways to delve into minutiae in violin making and there are all kinds of overcomplicated methods and tool setups that are suggested by various makers. At the beginning, avoid the scaffolding and put all your effort into the simple foundational skills of working the wood. Build up skill and control with gouges, planes, knives, and scrapers. 

The most valuable tools you have are your hands, ears, and eyes. They are the best measurement tools available, so put plenty of thought into their development. Look at good instruments and try to figure out how the work was done.

There are also lots of ways to spend money on unnecessary things like fancy cradles, collector-oriented tools, or luxury fittings. Put everything into your workmanship shaping the wood.

A good instrument will work well for any genre. Don't get caught up in trying to design the dream fiddle when you're trying to learn how to read wood. Violin making is practical but at the same time a little mysterious--science cannot adequately explain its phenomena or provide an accurate roadmap to making a fiddle a specific way. 

@gallaher I don’t think it’s an either/or situation, but yes I’ve noticed I do play less when I’m building. It upset me at first but I’ve come to accept it. I practice as much as I can, and try to ignore the thought of how much better I’d be if that’s all I did

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ben Taylor

Hi, new user on FH here. I’m starting to think seriously about making my first violin. My intention is to make a fiddle that would be primarily used to play Old Time and other folk styles.

Never having done this before, right now I’m looking at some Guarneri models to base my mould upon. I think my essential question at this stage is: Should I simply follow the pattern for whichever model I settle on and just make that instrument, or should I perhaps make any small tweaks to the design to A: make it my own, or B: make it more suitable for Old Time?

I’m aware sound/tone is pretty subjective but happy to hear from any experienced makers who may have gone down this rabbit hole and come out the other side with any conclusions.

Making a fiddle is a bit daunting but I already make banjos so am pretty comfortable with the idea and excited to give it a try.

Cheers, Ben

---

Hello Ben,

Welcome to the forum! I'm glad to hear you're interested in violin making. There are some excellent resources available to help you get started. There's a very steep learning curve, and the skill set for making violins is a very specialized one. 
 

For a first instrument, I would recommend picking a pattern that interests you and just doing your best to follow it. There is so much complexity in violin design, and when you're learning to work with the hand tools, the focus is best placed on understanding how the tools work and how to work with the wood. The theoretical side of making is fascinating and can be a lifetime of study, but that follows best upon a practical foundation. 
 

Even making a faithful copy of an instrument, the copy will still be quite different from the original. Makers sometimes make hundreds of fiddles on the same mold and end up with quite different results because wood is so variable, because there are bound to be some idiosyncrasies in the process, and there are still lots of avenues for exploration even using the same internal form.

Of course, in-person instruction is the best way to learn, and there are workshops and schools that teach this way (three major schools in the country and a few workshops in the summer hosted by makers. Joe Thrift, a respected maker and Old Time fiddler, has taught numerous classes, for example). If you're lucky and find an available maker, sometimes a traditional apprenticeship is an option.  
 

There are more high quality violin making books than ever before. The Courtnall and Johnson book is widely regarded as one of the best. More recently there was a book by Brian Derber. There are some older books with great information, although some of them are not completely reliable.

The Strad magazine has put out a series of posters over the years with technical drawings and scans of the instruments as well as full size pictures that provide all the reference material you need to make a mold and a set of templates. Many makers use these. You can even photocopy them (make absolutely sure your copy is exact!) and then cut parts out and attach them to the stock for your templates so that you have scribe lines.

There are a lot of tools you'll need for the work. If you're sure that you want to make a violin, I would recommend seeking out good quality edge tools. The quality of your steel will have a direct impact. But even more importantly, learn to grind and sharpen edge tools so that you can get them unbelievably sharp and maintain them. You can buy newly made tools from a number of suppliers or you can seek out vintage tools. Remember that tools will usually not be ready to use straight out of the box and will need some setup. You may need some advice there for setting them up. 
 

You can get some very good quality wood and decent tools from International Violin at very reasonable prices. They also sell basic varnish and varnishing supplies.

There are lots of online videos, but you have to be careful with them, as many are even more unreliable than the worst books. Davide Sora has made a lot of high quality videos for YouTube that give some useful information.

There are endless ways to delve into minutiae in violin making and there are all kinds of overcomplicated methods and tool setups that are suggested by various makers. At the beginning, avoid the scaffolding and put all your effort into the simple foundational skills of working the wood. Build up skill and control with gouges, planes, knives, and scrapers. 

The most valuable tools you have are your hands, ears, and eyes. They are the best measurement tools available, so put plenty of thought into their development. Look at good instruments and try to figure out how the work was done.

There are also lots of ways to spend money on unnecessary things like fancy cradles, collector-oriented tools, or luxury fittings. Put everything into your workmanship shaping the wood.

A good instrument will work well for any genre. Don't get caught up in trying to design the dream fiddle when you're trying to learn how to read wood. Violin making is practical but at the same time a little mysterious--science cannot adequately explain its phenomena or provide an accurate roadmap to making a fiddle a specific way. 

---

Hi Rich, thanks for the detailed reply.

I neglected to mention I’m in the UK so some of the US based resources may not work for me.

As a banjo maker I’m already quite familiar with tools and sharpening etc. I realize I’ll need to get a few violin specific tools as well but do have a functional workshop with a band saw, drill press etc.

Your comment about how every instrument to come off a given mold will be different anyway is a helpful reminder. One problem I can certainly have is overthinking most things I do, so that helps put my mind at rest. I will most likely just make it to the model/plans and see what I come out with. I am at the very early investigatory stages so it will likely be a while before I start cutting wood. But thank you.

I am nevertheless still interested to hear anyone’s thoughts on the subject.

The maker with whom I apprenticed has made over 80 violins, two cellos, no violas (I’m trying hard to convince him to make one!), but just one banjo. I’ve seen the banjo and it’s stunning and sounds great. But he told me he would never, ever make another banjo. He said that after making violins, it was excruciatingly boring making the banjo. Ever since he’s always referred to any tasks in the violin making process that are repetitive and don’t require much thought as “banjo work.”

Hahaha well, I really enjoy my banjo work. I hope when I do a fiddle that doesn’t change!

Come on! They are just little wood boxes, how hard can they be to make. J/k of course. In this, RIch Maxham does know what he's talking about. I apprenticed to a maker back in the 70' for a short time - too tough for me, that for sure.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ben Taylor

Hi, new user on FH here. I’m starting to think seriously about making my first violin. My intention is to make a fiddle that would be primarily used to play Old Time and other folk styles.
 

---

Hi, I welcome you to fiddle building. I was an experienced cabinet maker with a shop when I started building fiddles. One of my good friends is a luthier of fretted instruments. Those were my advantages. Other than that I bought The Stobel books, which seem a bit out of fashion now, and the Johnson/Courtnall book. I also downloaded lots of material from the internet. In my view having more than one source of information is good. My original mold was made from the Stobel book, and I have rendered that shape in succeeding molds of different materials, etc. I tried a couple ways to make breakaway molds because early on I had trouble twisting the garland off of a mold, I was afraid mostly. I've cut more than one mold out of a garland to make sure the garland survived. I learned that a well made garland is tougher than I first thought. I have experimented somewhat with different arching, especially on tops.

I've made 13 fiddles at the rate of a couple a year. It's been a while now since I have finished one. I have one in progress but life has me focused elsewhere for the most part. To some extent they were all experiments. I always wanted to respect the classic violin form so I never made weird shapes or anything. But I once made a five string using the standard mold. That was interesting but I took it apart after several months. I made a fiddle with a redwood top once. Also interesting. I tried a few different woods, but I've mostly stayed with traditional spruce and maple of American varieties.

My intent was never necessarily to make them to sell. I've sold 2, and taken a few apart. Some hang on the wall or get loaned out. It's a retirement hobby. My favorite is #5 which I've been playing for 8 or 9 years now. A friend who plays with me regularly has one on long term loan. In jams here I usually get to hear  2, occasionally 3 of my fiddles at once. It's a rewarding hobby and I don't represent myself as an expert. But I do know a lot by now. 

As far as choosing between building and playing I don't think one has to do that. It depends on your life and your priorities. I almost never spend 8 hour days building. I have the luxury of spreading it out as much as I want, and building never replaced playing. Finishing a new fiddle and playing it with others can be a thrill. Even though I use similar plans each time, and mostly wood from the same trees, they come out as individuals. It's disappointing to produce a dud, but you can learn about making the most of what you have and try to understand what went wrong. When you get one that wants to sing, you learn from that too, of course. You'll grow an overall knowledge about violins in general, but in my experience you can't flawlessly produce your dream fiddle every time. You strive for it and get better as you go.

I also agree that making and playing are not mutually exclusive. Many have done both successfully. There are a number of excellent makers who play fiddle music.

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ben Taylor

Hi, new user on FH here. I’m starting to think seriously about making my first violin. My intention is to make a fiddle that would be primarily used to play Old Time and other folk styles.
 

---

Hi, I welcome you to fiddle building. I was an experienced cabinet maker with a shop when I started building fiddles. One of my good friends is a luthier of fretted instruments. Those were my advantages. Other than that I bought The Stobel books, which seem a bit out of fashion now, and the Johnson/Courtnall book. I also downloaded lots of material from the internet. In my view having more than one source of information is good. My original mold was made from the Stobel book, and I have rendered that shape in succeeding molds of different materials, etc. I tried a couple ways to make breakaway molds because early on I had trouble twisting the garland off of a mold, I was afraid mostly. I've cut more than one mold out of a garland to make sure the garland survived. I learned that a well made garland is tougher than I first thought. I have experimented somewhat with different arching, especially on tops.

I've made 13 fiddles at the rate of a couple a year. It's been a while now since I have finished one. I have one in progress but life has me focused elsewhere for the most part. To some extent they were all experiments. I always wanted to respect the classic violin form so I never made weird shapes or anything. But I once made a five string using the standard mold. That was interesting but I took it apart after several months. I made a fiddle with a redwood top once. Also interesting. I tried a few different woods, but I've mostly stayed with traditional spruce and maple of American varieties.

My intent was never necessarily to make them to sell. I've sold 2, and taken a few apart. Some hang on the wall or get loaned out. It's a retirement hobby. My favorite is #5 which I've been playing for 8 or 9 years now. A friend who plays with me regularly has one on long term loan. In jams here I usually get to hear  2, occasionally 3 of my fiddles at once. It's a rewarding hobby and I don't represent myself as an expert. But I do know a lot by now. 

As far as choosing between building and playing I don't think one has to do that. It depends on your life and your priorities. I almost never spend 8 hour days building. I have the luxury of spreading it out as much as I want, and building never replaced playing. Finishing a new fiddle and playing it with others can be a thrill. Even though I use similar plans each time, and mostly wood from the same trees, they come out as individuals. It's disappointing to produce a dud, but you can learn about making the most of what you have and try to understand what went wrong. When you get one that wants to sing, you learn from that too, of course. You'll grow an overall knowledge about violins in general, but in my experience you can't flawlessly produce your dream fiddle every time. You strive for it and get better as you go.

---

Thanks Brian, for the encouraging words. Sounds like you’re on an enjoyable journey too sir

quote:

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Originally posted by Ben Taylor

Thanks Brian, for the encouraging words. Sounds like you’re on an enjoyable journey too sir

---

You're welcome! Forgot to mention one of my fiddles was a small viola, too. I almost have sold that twice, but not yet. For that I also used Strobel plans. Good luck!

The Strobel books aren’t bad, although a few things are a little iffy. The Useful Measurements book is handy and used by a lot of shops.

My grandfather really liked “You Can Make a Stradivarius” and used that when he was getting started. It’s a no-nonsense book aimed at DIY makers who want to try their hand at making and don’t want to obsess over the details. You’ll find more extensive and more accurate information elsewhere, but it’s not a bad book. It was originally a series of articles in Popular Mechanics, but there was so much interest in the articles that it was eventually published in book form.

My great-great-grandfather is said to have enjoyed Herron-Allen's book, but I don't know that he used it to learn his making. It was the introductory book for a lot of makers in its day and deserves credit as such. The writing is delightful and engaging, but it's not a great making resource. It does come with plans, but they're not well-regarded, and a lot of the historical parts are inaccurate (in his defense, he was writing at a time when there wasn't much scholarly knowledge about the history of violin making available yet). 

“The ‘Secrets’ of Stradivari” is one of the best books, but it’s one you have to read and reread to find all the details, and it’s not a violin making manual per se, more a resource for makers who want to learn more about the Cremonese methods.

Roger Hargrave’s book “Making a Bass” is one of the best free resources in the world and can be found on his website. Although it covers his process of making a bass, he painstakingly and exhaustively covers the Cremonese working methods as he understands them, having done industry-leading research (he was responsible for the Strad posters) and having worked on and copied some of the finest violins in history. It’s a treasure trove of information and I think it’s straightforward, although not aimed directly at the beginner. A few people have used the book to get started, I think.

I’d spend some time reading through what you can first, then select a resource and follow it as closely as you can. If you try to blend information from multiple sources it may cause complications. Don’t get caught in rabbit holes when you should be using your gouge!

Thanks very much Rich, I appreciate the recommendations. I guess I might buy a couple books and spend some time reading through before I start anything. I’m very much in the early research stages here, I have a banjo on the bench that I need to focus on (and I’m dreading the moment my wife gets wind of what I’m thinking about. She already thinks I spend too much time in the shop!)
It’ll take me a minute to supplement my tools with a few violin specific items too.

At the moment I’m contemplating making a mold outline based on the Kriesler Guarneri, but possibly taking plate arching inspiration from the Alard model. It’s all food for thought and an exciting project prospect.