Well, I expect you will get some interesting comments. To my ear this was a good tune choice to compare styles. And yes it is quite obvious what is what. I am an unapologetic grasser so the differentiation to me was stark in that the gamut is run from no improvisation to a melody almost lost in the ornamentals. I always think of the Jethro Burns paraphrase , If someone walks in at the middle of my solo I want them to know what tune I am playing. Thanks for this and keep up the good work.

The styles also vary by the accompaniment to the melody. It's very obvious in Benny Thomasson's version. His Texas style has many prearranged variations of tunes (many that originated with him) with lots of fiddle ornamentation and a swing walking bass pattern with diminished 7th passing chords throughout.

That should be easy to show to someone who wants to know style differences.

The idea makes sense and it would be interesting to see some other examples. I think it may be difficult to come up with many tunes in all three of those genres, but perhaps there are more than I anticipate.

I’ve seen a few YouTube videos where a tune is played in many different styles, but that’s based on adding some of the characteristic elements from various genres to a tune, not finding examples of tunes that are regularly played in multiple genres.

There was a legendary DJ in Bethesda who used to host a great radio program. He would often do things like that and trace a melody across different iterations. It was my favorite aspect of his show and I wish his playlists were available now. I sorely miss the program.

I think I’ve mentioned it before, but Florian ZaBach wrote an episode in his TV show where he and some of the supporting show musicians recreated a jam session. They took the melody “London Bridge Is Falling Down” and played it in several different styles just to show how they could play around with an idea and look for inspiration. It also showcased the ability of those musicians to switch between styles seamlessly.

I think if you’re talking to a player, using the bowing patterns and ornamentation to explain each genre helps quite a lot. The differences can be heard listening to the different versions, but if you’re trying to play the different styles, much of it comes down to the playing mechanics, as unromantic as that may sound.

If you’re explaining to someone who isn’t a player, it makes sense to focus more on big picture explanations that don’t go into mechanical detail, as the detail will be lost on the non-player and there won’t be any application.

Oh, there are a lot of tunes played by all three, but maybe not all necessarily heard frequently, and not all of them are necessarily good examples for contrast because some have cross-pollinated more than others.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

The idea makes sense and it would be interesting to see some other examples. I think it may be difficult to come up with many tunes in all three of those genres, but perhaps there are more than I anticipate.

I’ve seen a few YouTube videos where a tune is played in many different styles, but that’s based on adding some of the characteristic elements from various genres to a tune, not finding examples of tunes that are regularly played in multiple genres.

There was a legendary DJ in Bethesda who used to host a great radio program. He would often do things like that and trace a melody across different iterations. It was my favorite aspect of his show and I wish his playlists were available now. I sorely miss the program.

I think I’ve mentioned it before, but Florian ZaBach wrote an episode in his TV show where he and some of the supporting show musicians recreated a jam session. They took the melody “London Bridge Is Falling Down” and played it in several different styles just to show how they could play around with an idea and look for inspiration. It also showcased the ability of those musicians to switch between styles seamlessly.

I think if you’re talking to a player, using the bowing patterns and ornamentation to explain each genre helps quite a lot. The differences can be heard listening to the different versions, but if you’re trying to play the different styles, much of it comes down to the playing mechanics, as unromantic as that may sound.

If you’re explaining to someone who isn’t a player, it makes sense to focus more on big picture explanations that don’t go into mechanical detail, as the detail will be lost on the non-player and there won’t be any application.

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I agree, but I'm more concerned with showing what the fiddle itself is doing than how other instruments are backing them or whether they're playing breaks. Here's Benny playing with a bluegrass banjo backing him. https://www.brokenbowfiddleco.com/2021/07/benny-thomasson-and-doc-hamilton-home.html 

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

The styles also vary by the accompaniment to the melody. It's very obvious in Benny Thomasson's version. His Texas style has many prearranged variations of tunes (many that originated with him) with lots of fiddle ornamentation and a swing walking bass pattern with diminished 7th passing chords throughout.

That should be easy to show to someone who wants to know style differences.

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Piney Woods Girl - Emmett Lundy

https://www.slippery-hill.com/content/piney-woods-girl

This may not be completely on target, but this guy has several good videos comparing fiddle styles. The ones where he contrasts the nuances of various Canadian styles are especially good. In this one, he plays a Scottish tune in seven different styles, including bluegrass and Texas:

youtube.com/watch?v=7t3Nt6YaxqA

I know there are lots of crossover tunes, but how many are regularly represented in all three genres distinctly? I’ve heard bluegrass players or Texas fiddlers play Old Time tunes, but in some of those cases the players are playing the tunes in an Old Time style and departing from their usual style a bit. A few individual performances have been posted but not examples of all three styles so far. I’m eager to see examples if anyone can provide them. I was trying to come up with some earlier but found that I was always missing the third genre when I’d try to pick a tune.

The Michael Burnyeat video linked above is one I was thinking about in my previous comment.

I'm not sure how distinct "distinctly" needs to be, but there is a whole list of tunes that are common in all three genres/styles. It's the same tune, so the stylistic differences *are* the difference. Or maybe I don't fully understand what we're looking for. Anyhow, here are three versions of Grey Eagle for entertainment value if nothing else.

Bluegrass (T.J. Lundy) - youtube.com/watch?v=yesu9jk4Q7...t_radio=1
Contest/Texas (Michael Cleveland) - youtube.com/watch?v=jCYCaGFJkM...t_radio=1
Old-Time (Eddie Bond) - youtube.com/watch?v=SOPCjnumYWU

Yeah, Michael Cleveland nearly defines bluegrass fiddling these days, but at age 13 he was on the contest circuit and mostly playing by their rules.

How about this?

Bill Cheatham

Old-Time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SepsDZsD8I

Bluegrass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_quInh1bYs

TX Contest Style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTlHRJKNywE

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

I know there are lots of crossover tunes, but how many are regularly represented in all three genres distinctly? I’ve heard bluegrass players or Texas fiddlers play Old Time tunes, but in some of those cases the players are playing the tunes in an Old Time style and departing from their usual style a bit. A few individual performances have been posted but not examples of all three styles so far. I’m eager to see examples if anyone can provide them. I was trying to come up with some earlier but found that I was always missing the third genre when I’d try to pick a tune.

The Michael Burnyeat video linked above is one I was thinking about in my previous comment.

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It's probably worth mentioning that 95% of bluegrass playing is on vocal songs. I've been going to jams for 10-15 years and have never heard anyone call Katy Hill. Bill Cheatham maybe twice?

I agree, and I'd add that its the songs that more clearly differentiate Bluegrass from old time music. The fiddle tunes are often played in a very similar style to old time fiddling, especially by the older generation of players like Tommy Magness, Art Wooten or Paul Warren, but right up to Kenny Baker. Compare the early Bill Monroe recording of "Katy Hill," with Tommy Magness, to Clark Kessinger, and they'd be hard to classify. Even including the backup, since Wayne Hauser played a Scruggs style banjo bejhind Clark, and there's no banjo on the Monroe recording.

Old time "Katy Hill." Highwoods Stringband at Brandywine Festival, 1976:
youtu.be/7S33L3DAEP4?si=4bPbesdgPCfnyt70
Track 25 in set 3. To us, "Katy Hill" and "Sally Ann Johnson" were two different tunes. I have a short film of us playing "Sally Ann Johnson," (probably learned from the Clark Kessinger revording) but I'm not sure about posting it.

I agree concerning how the older generation of bluegrassers played, but I've noticed a problem with the focus being on tune/song repertoire rather than how those tunes/songs are played/sung, people thinking all they have to do to be an "old-time fiddler" or "old-time singer" is play old-time tunes or sing old-time songs, and they're not going back to the source like Highwoods, New Lost City Ramblers, etc., did. 

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Originally posted by DougD

I agree, and I'd add that its the songs that more clearly differentiate Bluegrass from old time music. The fiddle tunes are often played in a very similar style to old time fiddling, especially by the older generation of players like Tommy Magness, Art Wooten or Paul Warren, but right up to Kenny Baker. Compare the early Bill Monroe recording of "Katy Hill," with Tommy Magness, to Clark Kessinger, and they'd be hard to classify. Even including the backup, since Wayne Hauser played a Scruggs style banjo bejhind Clark, and there's no banjo on the Monroe recording.

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Katy Hill is a standard around here for the cloggers, but I don't think I've heard it called in a jam much or played in contests under that name in recent years, either. Sally Johnson, however, is pretty infamous for being an overplayed contest tune, to my knowledge.

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Originally posted by screecher

It's probably worth mentioning that 95% of bluegrass playing is on vocal songs. I've been going to jams for 10-15 years and have never heard anyone call Katy Hill. Bill Cheatham maybe twice?

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Originally posted by soppinthegravy

I agree concerning how the older generation of bluegrassers played, but I've noticed a problem with the focus being on tune/song repertoire rather than how those tunes/songs are played/sung, people thinking all they have to do to be an "old-time fiddler" or "old-time singer" is play old-time tunes or sing old-time songs, and they're not going back to the source like Highwoods, New Lost City Ramblers, etc., did. 

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This is a part of what I was getting at in the thread on definitions. It sounds like you are also proposing the strict definition. It focuses more on precision, but people often balk at it because it is necessarily the most exclusive option. 

I don't think it's that strict to say that the difference in technique matters more than the difference in repertoire. I'm not even picking one style of old-time over another in this discussion.  If an old-time fiddler is playing a modern tune, it will tend to sound more old-timey vs. a modern player playing an old-time tune.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

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Originally posted by soppinthegravy

I agree concerning how the older generation of bluegrassers played, but I've noticed a problem with the focus being on tune/song repertoire rather than how those tunes/songs are played/sung, people thinking all they have to do to be an "old-time fiddler" or "old-time singer" is play old-time tunes or sing old-time songs, and they're not going back to the source like Highwoods, New Lost City Ramblers, etc., did. 

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This is a part of what I was getting at in the thread on definitions. It sounds like you are also proposing the strict definition. It focuses more on precision, but people often balk at it because it is necessarily the most exclusive option. 

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