Are you talking about the grain on the top of the fiddle? if so you want about 12 to the inch grain pattern. although i have had fiddles with less than this that sound nice and mellow due to them being very old tops.

Trust Rich Maxims "Violin The Beautiful" answer if he posts.

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Are you talking about the grain on the top of the fiddle? if so you want about 12 to the inch grain pattern. although i have had fiddles with less than this that sound nice and mellow due to them being very old tops.

Trust Rich Maxims "Violin The Beautiful" answer if he posts.

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Yeah I was referring to the top. I guess I didn't look at the back!

That's interesting though, I just measured a spot on the top of mine and counted 20 lines of grain to 1 inch.

yep that's a dense piece of wood if that is just the dark lines.
it would have been growing with the closer grain facing towards the sun. Legend has it that Stradimavarious used the wood his Grandad bought that was on a south facing hill before it was even mature for this reason

Just where do you measure the lines? They are much closer together in the middle than at the edge.

Dave

It is my understanding that the closeness of the grain is determined by how quick it grows.For instance Oak trees grown here in Ireland have a much tighter grain than Oak trees grown in Australia. The Australian ones grow in less than half the time but their timber is a lot softer.

Hello, Tim.

You raise some good questions. The subject is complex, but I’ll do my best to answer.

The width of the rings varies according to the climate each year, so during periods where it’s generally colder and trees don’t grow as quickly, the rings are thinner and closer together, whereas in warmer periods, the growth will be faster and the rings will be wider. Historically, there was a period where temperatures were overall colder and growth rings were much more compressed than in any time since. At the time of the violin’s invention, the makers realized that this wood was quite dense and therefore allowed thinner tops to be made. Makers like Stradivari, who had the pick of the litter in wood, often chose pieces with very fine grain and often joined the bookmatched halves so that the closest grain was in the middle. This was a preference for some makers but it wasn’t a rule, and it’s not uncommon to see old Italian violins with rather wide grained tops.

It was assumed for quite a long time that the great Cremonese makers aged their wood for a long time before making violins, but modern research into dendrochronology has suggested that this was not a rule either, and some of the makers were using wood that was fairly fresh.

Wood with fine grain has been viewed as desirable by many makers who wish to make copies of old instruments that have this kind of wood in their tops. Because the growth pattern has not been replicated since the cold period, wood of that age is scarce and therefore more valuable on the wood market. Really beautiful old wood that’s aged well and has a fine figure and grain can go for a high price. However, the billets chosen for the violin don’t dictate the price of the instrument by themselves. Some years back a stash of wood from the Juzek firm that had been hidden away in anticipation of German occupation in WWII was discovered. The wood was sold to various dealers and pieces of it were for sale at the VSA convention that year. I had hoped I might be able to buy a back, but a major violin maker had gotten word of the wood’s presence early and sent his apprentices to the vendors to claim it all the moment the doors opened. It was stunning wood. I heard the prices reflected the rarity of the wood, so I might not have been able to buy a back even if one had been available to me.


Aging wood to some degree is important to make sure it’s cycled out enough of its moisture to be stable after it’s worked. Because it’s cheaper to buy fresh wood and time is of the essence, it’s common for mass producers to bypass this drying period, which can result in the instruments undergoing undue stresses after they’re newly made. So a bit of time is needed to stabilize the wood. Beyond that, the addition of years oxides the wood and gives it a deeper natural color, which can be especially appealing. Older wood can be more brittle as it dries out and changes its structure beyond the initial drying phase. Well cut wood that’s stored carefully will age like wine. It won’t go bad with age and will only look prettier. Beautiful old wood with a deep flame (for backs) is the dream of most makers. Fine grained spruce is also highly sought after (although not by all).

Fine old Italian instruments are often quite light in the hand because the wood has cycled out moisture over centuries and because the wood was strong enough that the makers (or luthiers who regraduated them) could make them thinner. Commercial instruments tend to be pretty heavy because they’re left rather thick to make them durable. This also makes them unresponsive and dull. A lot of the “German trade fiddles” were very roughly carved out on the inside and a lot of wood was left in to save time. They were produced as fast as possible in their day and sold primarily at the lower end of the market. That’s why many are so heavy and dull. The good thing about that is that they can be revoiced and made into quite nice instruments if you’re willing to invest in them. The same is true with commercial instruments made today, although the interior work is often cleaner now to begin with. Simply being lighter is not a guarantee of quality, though, as an instrument that’s been thinned out too much will not sound good at all. There’s a delicate balance.

If you buy fine old wood, the quality of the violin you make will depend on your understanding of the wood and the skill with which to make the violin. So you can’t set your prices just by the wood itself, although the material cost may have some impact. Most makers have a set price for their violins and you don’t pay for the wood selection (unless it’s really special) but rather the work of the maker.

I wouldn’t worry as much about the age of the wood as I would about the skill of the maker. Grain width is not necessarily an indicator of tonal quality, as there are great violins with rather wide grain and terrible ones with fine grain. To get good results with any wood the maker needs to understand its properties.

Rich Maxham,
That is the best description I have read concerning wood and build quality of violins I have ever read and agrees with what I read in books on the subject years ago. Great job!

Dave Leonard

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Originally posted by hurdy_gurdyman

Rich Maxham,
That is the best description I have read concerning wood and build quality of violins I have ever read and agrees with what I read in books on the subject years ago. Great job!

Dave Leonard

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Thank you kindly, Dave!

I was a truly lucky guy who spent most of his life in a major metropolis which also happened to be the center of the film industry. It allowed me to put a heck of a lot of fiddles both expensive and cheap under my chin. It enabled me to find fiddles good enough to make me happy without totally busting the bank...or break up my marriage.

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Hello, Tim.

You raise some good questions. The subject is complex, but I’ll do my best to answer.

The width of the rings varies according to the climate each year, so during periods where it’s generally colder and trees don’t grow as quickly, the rings are thinner and closer together, whereas in warmer periods, the growth will be faster and the rings will be wider. Historically, there was a period where temperatures were overall colder and growth rings were much more compressed than in any time since. At the time of the violin’s invention, the makers realized that this wood was quite dense and therefore allowed thinner tops to be made. Makers like Stradivari, who had the pick of the litter in wood, often chose pieces with very fine grain and often joined the bookmatched halves so that the closest grain was in the middle. This was a preference for some makers but it wasn’t a rule, and it’s not uncommon to see old Italian violins with rather wide grained tops.

It was assumed for quite a long time that the great Cremonese makers aged their wood for a long time before making violins, but modern research into dendrochronology has suggested that this was not a rule either, and some of the makers were using wood that was fairly fresh.

Wood with fine grain has been viewed as desirable by many makers who wish to make copies of old instruments that have this kind of wood in their tops. Because the growth pattern has not been replicated since the cold period, wood of that age is scarce and therefore more valuable on the wood market. Really beautiful old wood that’s aged well and has a fine figure and grain can go for a high price. However, the billets chosen for the violin don’t dictate the price of the instrument by themselves. Some years back a stash of wood from the Juzek firm that had been hidden away in anticipation of German occupation in WWII was discovered. The wood was sold to various dealers and pieces of it were for sale at the VSA convention that year. I had hoped I might be able to buy a back, but a major violin maker had gotten word of the wood’s presence early and sent his apprentices to the vendors to claim it all the moment the doors opened. It was stunning wood. I heard the prices reflected the rarity of the wood, so I might not have been able to buy a back even if one had been available to me.


Aging wood to some degree is important to make sure it’s cycled out enough of its moisture to be stable after it’s worked. Because it’s cheaper to buy fresh wood and time is of the essence, it’s common for mass producers to bypass this drying period, which can result in the instruments undergoing undue stresses after they’re newly made. So a bit of time is needed to stabilize the wood. Beyond that, the addition of years oxides the wood and gives it a deeper natural color, which can be especially appealing. Older wood can be more brittle as it dries out and changes its structure beyond the initial drying phase. Well cut wood that’s stored carefully will age like wine. It won’t go bad with age and will only look prettier. Beautiful old wood with a deep flame (for backs) is the dream of most makers. Fine grained spruce is also highly sought after (although not by all).

Fine old Italian instruments are often quite light in the hand because the wood has cycled out moisture over centuries and because the wood was strong enough that the makers (or luthiers who regraduated them) could make them thinner. Commercial instruments tend to be pretty heavy because they’re left rather thick to make them durable. This also makes them unresponsive and dull. A lot of the “German trade fiddles” were very roughly carved out on the inside and a lot of wood was left in to save time. They were produced as fast as possible in their day and sold primarily at the lower end of the market. That’s why many are so heavy and dull. The good thing about that is that they can be revoiced and made into quite nice instruments if you’re willing to invest in them. The same is true with commercial instruments made today, although the interior work is often cleaner now to begin with. Simply being lighter is not a guarantee of quality, though, as an instrument that’s been thinned out too much will not sound good at all. There’s a delicate balance.

If you buy fine old wood, the quality of the violin you make will depend on your understanding of the wood and the skill with which to make the violin. So you can’t set your prices just by the wood itself, although the material cost may have some impact. Most makers have a set price for their violins and you don’t pay for the wood selection (unless it’s really special) but rather the work of the maker.

I wouldn’t worry as much about the age of the wood as I would about the skill of the maker. Grain width is not necessarily an indicator of tonal quality, as there are great violins with rather wide grain and terrible ones with fine grain. To get good results with any wood the maker needs to understand its properties.

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Sorry for the late reply, thank you! That was a very informative response. Amazing what you can turn a tree into!

The wood being left inside the German trade fiddles definitely makes sense as to why the guy's fiddle I was talking about was so much heavier.

It's good to know to focus on the skill of the violin maker though.