Ok so let me just say im a absolute beginner here. So with that out of the way, ive been playing for about 20 or so years on and off. I bought this at a flea market for $50 dollars. They were obviously pretty proud of it (see price) ive tried to buy this on multiple occasions for years now. I just wanted it for the mechanical tuners. Never would budge on price even with all these terrible repairs. But they were going out of business and i shot my shot. I wanna start making them but have never had one apart so I figured start here. After getting started i made the terrible decision to repair this and its most likely a lost cause. The glue, which is mostly not hide glue is everywhere. I do know that generally the top is removed for repairs but due to the glue damage I found it best to remove the back. Now I am at the process of the top and back off. The fingerboard has been glued with this terrible stuff to the neck. So I left the neck on the ribs and blocks. I have it in a mold and the neck supported. No idea what im doing here and any advice would be appreciated. Best I can figure its a Seidel German trade violin roughly from 1870's to 1910's.
Edited by - Banjobandit501 on 02/10/2026 19:42:46
It looks to me like a pretty typical commercial German violin from the 1920s or 1930s. Seidel is a commercial brand that shows up frequently on violins of that period. Unfortunately it has suffered some severe damage. It can be restored to good playing condition again, but it is not a good project for getting into violin work because it requires some advanced skill to undo the savagery that’s been committed against it. It does have potential, but it will take a monumental effort to reach it.
The top cracks are extremely dirty and poorly glued, so there is a lot of work needed to undo that damage. It’s quite possible that some wood will be missing, and it may be necessary to do some work to unwarp distortion. Cleaning the cracks is something that takes utmost finesse and a knowledge of restoration technique and the safest materials for cleaning.
The bottom block may need to be replaced if the damage is severe enough. All of the old glue needs to be removed, and the top definitely needs to come off. The pictures don’t make it clear that it’s something other than very thick hide glue, but if your assumption is correct, you will need to proceed with great caution to release the old glue, as the chances of new cracks developing are higher with a glue that’s trickier to remove.
As you’ve shown in your pictures, those awful machine tuners have done a huge amount of damage to the pegbox, and the bushings have come loose. The bushings need to come out, the cracks need to be cleaned properly and glued, new bushings need to be put in, and then the pegbox needs reinforcement if you intend to install wood pegs. This alone is a significant amount of skilled work.
The bassbar is not well made or positioned and does not do anything for the potential of the instrument. A new one would be a major improvement, but putting in a bassbar is an advanced skill.
After the cracks are dealt with the violin can be reassembled, but I would expect that the neck projection will require correction.
Because of the failed repairs there are dark stains around the larger top cracks from attempts at touchup. If you’re putting the effort in to repair the violin, the old touchup should really also be addressed. This is in some ways the hardest part of the job. Making old repairs disappear is much more difficult, especially if the colors have soaked into the wood.
The fingerboard appears to have some divots in it. You may want to inspect to see why those exist. Make sure there aren’t nails. If the board is metal-free, you’ll likely need to plane it to get it back into playing shape. At the least, you’ll need to fill in the voids. If the board is poorly glued, you’ll need to take it off, clean the glue surfaces, possibly plane them flat, and then reglue.
All that being done, it’ll need a proper setup.
This is the sort of project a lot of shops will decline, not because the the instrument is of poor quality, but because it requires weeks of time and an investment of well over $1000 to make playable, and even after an amazing restoration, the value will necessarily still be fairly low (damage is forever, even if it’s masterfully repaired).
I can certainly understand the excitement at finding a violin with a pretty back that’s almost being given away for free, but this violin is in need of some major work and is not at all beginner-friendly as a project. If you really like the violin, you may want to consider having the work done professionally to get into playing shape. A different instrument will likely be a better starter project, one that has less damage and can be more effectively repaired without as much advanced skill.
What a shame. Just write it up as a cruel lesson learned...and luckily not a bank breaker, either.
Yea from the photos ive seen of hide glue this is some kind of mixture of hide glue and maybe epoxy or super glue? It is really thick and hard as a rock. I mean the way i look at it yea its a shame this old instrument got this treatment. But I can always glue it back together enough for a wall hanger. Yea I know this thing needs a professional but im more of do it myself kinda guy. Ive been researching lots of repairs for this violin and the previous replies nailed it. I just wanted someone else's eyes on it that would know what they are talking about. Im not really concerned with looks or anything. I just want to be able to whip it out and tell a quick story about it and get thru a tune. It will never what it was and I kinda think thats cool in a way.
Adam - You may be interested in this discussion at Maestronet: maestronet.com/forum/index.php...4-seidel/
Christian Wilhelm Seidel was a well regarded maker in Markneukirchen who died in 1899. I think it was a large family, and the brand is still in use today. The ones I've seen online, and the one I own are branded inside the back with the name, not at the button like yours, but the logo is similar. Also the wood in the back looks similar to mine.
Yours has had a hard life, but if its one of his they're pretty nice instruments, and might deserve some thought.
quote:
Originally posted by DougDAdam - You may be interested in this discussion at Maestronet: maestronet.com/forum/index.php...4-seidel/
Christian Wilhelm Seidel was a well regarded maker in Markneukirchen who died in 1899. I think it was a large family, and the brand is still in use today. The ones I've seen online, and the one I own are branded inside the back with the name, not at the button like yours, but the logo is similar. Also the wood in the back looks similar to mine.
Yours has had a hard life, but if its one of his they're pretty nice instruments, and might deserve some thought.
What's being discussed on Maestronet is the work of a single Markneukirchen maker. The OP's violin is a commercial German violin that's mostly likely later. The name Seidel was used commercially by German manufacturers including the Roth factory, which is the reason for its continued existence as a brand.
Gosh - I hate to say anything - I always seem to be the contrarian. OK.... be that as it may...
I think you have a gem!!! Use all of your intuition and knowledge that you have acquired until now - and do what you think is best with the tools that you have. I say do all you can do to make it work. You heard what Rich said it would cost to fix it - do it yourself!
What the HECK do you have to lose? $50 
...cheapest education you'll ever pay for.
If you throw it away - you loose the opportunity to learn what you can do on an instrument you don't have much invested in. So what it it turns out like crap?!?!? Think of what you will have learned - concerning what to do - what not to do - and what was a wasted effort? Ask questions when you don't know what to do next. AND shame on those that won't help you when you ask - keep asking - some one will try to help.
If it turns out good, think of how that will make you feel! ...and if it it turns out bad - so what - if you paid attention to what all the effort taught you! You have nothing to loose! ...waste of time? ...bull hockey!
Certainly - it is your call. Let it be your call.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/10/2026 18:34:46
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelderGosh - I hate to say anything - I always seem to be the contrarian. OK.... be that as it may...
I think you have a gem!!! Use all of your intuition and knowledge that you have acquired until now - and do what you think is best with the tools that you have. I say do all you can do to make it work. You heard what Rich said it would cost to fix it - do it yourself!
What the HECK do you have to lose? $50
If you throw it away - you loose the opportunity to learn what you can do on an instrument you don't have much invested in. So what it it turns out like crap?!?!? Think of what you will have learned - concerning what to do - what not to do - and what was a wasted effort? Ask questions when you don't know what to do next. AND shame on those that won't help you when you ask - keep asking - some one will try to help.If it turns out good, think of how that will make you feel! ...and if it it turns out bad - so what - if you paid attention to what all the effort taught you! You have nothing to loose! ...waste of time? ...bull hockey!
Certainly - it is your call. Let it be your call.
See now that's what I wanted to hear haha. I see it exactly like that, i mean would i like to learn from a master? Absolutely, but unfortunately all I have is a broken fiddle and a will to learn. Plus if I start on this one I will gain years of trial and error all on one fiddle. Im gonna give it my best shot on it. I read a article on Tommy Jarrell's fiddle that was hit by a minie ball in the Civil War. The fingerboard was worn so someone before him patched the hole and put brass on the fingerboard like the fretless banjo's of the time. I love giving something a second chance. Ive never posted to a forum before and I thought I was gonna get roasted haha.
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelderGosh - I hate to say anything - I always seem to be the contrarian. OK.... be that as it may...
I think you have a gem!!! Use all of your intuition and knowledge that you have acquired until now - and do what you think is best with the tools that you have. I say do all you can do to make it work. You heard what Rich said it would cost to fix it - do it yourself!
What the HECK do you have to lose? $50
If you throw it away - you loose the opportunity to learn what you can do on an instrument you don't have much invested in. So what it it turns out like crap?!?!? Think of what you will have learned - concerning what to do - what not to do - and what was a wasted effort? Ask questions when you don't know what to do next. AND shame on those that won't help you when you ask - keep asking - some one will try to help.If it turns out good, think of how that will make you feel! ...and if it it turns out bad - so what - if you paid attention to what all the effort taught you! You have nothing to loose! ...waste of time? ...bull hockey!
Certainly - it is your call. Let it be your call.
Why are you suggesting it's a good idea to subject an already tortured instrument to more abuse? The response I wrote was not at all unhelpful and it did not dismiss the violin as worthless. If you had read my post sensibly, you might have noticed that there was a comprehensive outline of the instrument's problems as well as some that might pop up and plenty of description of the work needed to repair its damage.
It is not kindness to encourage someone who is trying to learn how to repair instruments to take on a gigantic project that has a lot of complicated problems. Just saying "try it out and see what you can learn from trying" is not an education, it's just a lot of time spent without having learned to do anything that will benefit the potential learner or the instrument. Telling someone who asks for help "Go do it yourself" is neither helpful nor "nice." To give bad advice is especially cruel.
Repairing an instrument well (including this one) is not a waste of time, but attempting to repair it without having any idea what to do to correct its issues and without guidance is absolutely a waste of time. Time is arguably a precious resource, so spending it by learning from bad sources is a great loss. Learning by making mistakes is only valuable to a certain extent--adjusting a soundpost with a screwdriver might teach you not to repeat the mistake, but it won't make up for the destruction you cause to a violin, and a bit of guidance can avoid many hours of wasted time and the necessity to unlearn many bad practices.
I haven't suggested that the OP should never repair this violin, just that it is not a good starting project.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 02/10/2026 19:06:56
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by tonyelderGosh - I hate to say anything - I always seem to be the contrarian. OK.... be that as it may...
I think you have a gem!!! Use all of your intuition and knowledge that you have acquired until now - and do what you think is best with the tools that you have. I say do all you can do to make it work. You heard what Rich said it would cost to fix it - do it yourself!
What the HECK do you have to lose? $50Why are you suggesting it's a good idea to subject an already tortured instrument to more abuse? The response I wrote was not at all unhelpful and it did not dismiss the violin as worthless.
It is not kindness to encourage someone who is trying to learn how to repair instruments to take on a gigantic project that has a lot of complicated problems. Just saying "try it out and see what you can learn from trying" is not an education, it's just a lot of time spent without having learned to do anything that will benefit the potential learner or the instrument. Telling someone who asks for help "Go do it yourself" is neither helpful nor "nice." To give bad advice is especially cruel.
Repairing an instrument well (including this one) is not a waste of time, but attempting to repair it without having any idea what to do to correct its issues and without guidance is absolutely a waste of time. Time is arguably a precious resource, so spending it by learning from bad sources is a great loss. Learning by making mistakes is only valuable to a certain extent--adjusting a soundpost with a screwdriver might teach you not to repeat the mistake, but it won't make up for the destruction you cause to a violin, and a bit of guidance can avoid many hours of wasted time and the necessity to unlearn
I see your point also and I appreciate the point. You are absolutely right with time being a precious commodity. I want every bit of guidance I can find. I want to learn and have the initiative. Unfortunately I dont have access to a whole trove of information. I do have more of a advantage than most tho. I have another fiddle that was made by a man two towns over from me in 1993. He only made about 30 in his life time and I was able to purchase this in a storage unit sale for also $50 dollars. I never got to meet the man but I happened apon his obituary recently unfortunately. He passed in 2024. I was able to speak with his son and he's told me all about the process that he knows and given me lots of tips. He's gathering all the photos and videos he has currently for me. So im basing my pattern off his for making one. I love the sound and the story behind it. I do want to possibly start a repair business on the side and I figured this has got to be the worst fiddle ive ever seen. I really dont have alot to lose here. So im gonna try my best and hope something good comes of it.
Edited by - Banjobandit501 on 02/10/2026 19:18:34
quote:
Originally posted by Banjobandit501I see your point also and I appreciate the point. You are absolutely right with time being a precious commodity. I want every bit of guidance I can find. I want to learn and have the initiative. Unfortunately I dont have access to a whole trove of information. I do have more of a advantage than most tho. I have another fiddle that was made by a man two towns over from me in 1993. He only made about 30 in his life time and I was able to purchase this in a storage unit sale for also $50 dollars. I never got to meet the man but I happened apon his obituary recently unfortunately. He passed in 2024. I was able to speak with his son and he's told me all about the process that he knows and given me lots of tips. He's gathering all the photos and videos he has currently for me. So im basing my pattern off his for making one. I love the sound and the story behind it. I do want to possibly start a repair business on the side and I figured this has got to be the worst fiddle ive ever seen. I really dont have alot to lose here. So im gonna try my best and hope something good comes of it.
Yes!!! Violet Hensley's fiddles - I guarantee - would not pass the "approval" of quality - by some who would offer an evaluation of hand made instruments, But her fiddles are - in demand - for a good reason.
It doesn't matter. We have conjugated this verb before. Watching Tommy Jarrell - play a for real Strat..... and hear his impression - says it all. NOT to say a Strat isn't worth the money... just to say it has it's place- and that "place" is where the value is located. Same with Violet's fiddles.
And so does a $50 dollar fiddle in the hands of someone with dreams . What is the worst that could happen? .. and the best?
Given the up hill battle of someone that wants to try ---- would there be anyone willing to help? I bet there is. The fiddle has a chance to live.
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelderquote:
Originally posted by Banjobandit501I see your point also and I appreciate the point. You are absolutely right with time being a precious commodity. I want every bit of guidance I can find. I want to learn and have the initiative.
Yes!!! Violet Hensley's fiddles - I guarantee - would not pass the "approval" of quality - by some who would offer an evaluation of hand made instruments, But her fiddles are - in demand - for a good reason.
It doesn't matter. We have conjugated this verb before. Watching Tommy Jarrell - play a for real Strat..... and hear his impression - says it all. NOT to say a Strat isn't worth the money... just to say it has it's place- and that "place" is where the value is located. Same with Violet's fiddles.
And so does a $50 dollar fiddle in the hands of someone with dreams . What is the worst that could happen? .. and the best?
Given the up hill battle of someone that wants to try ---- would there be anyone willing to help? I bet there is. The fiddle has a chance to live.
I mean what's the worst that could happen? I learn to work on a fiddle? Ive repaired alot of guitars and banjos over my life. Ive got a 1960's bakelite open back harmony that I changed the head, added more brackets for the look, along with adding planatary tuners. So im comfortable around instruments. This is my other fiddle. I currently have it apart to compare the build quality to this Seidel and gain ideas from it.
quote:
Originally posted by DougDAdam - You may be interested in this discussion at Maestronet: maestronet.com/forum/index.php...4-seidel/
Christian Wilhelm Seidel was a well regarded maker in Markneukirchen who died in 1899. I think it was a large family, and the brand is still in use today. The ones I've seen online, and the one I own are branded inside the back with the name, not at the button like yours, but the logo is similar. Also the wood in the back looks similar to mine.
Yours has had a hard life, but if its one of his they're pretty nice instruments, and might deserve some thought.
It is also stamped on the inside. Mine has a little stone in the scroll. I wonder if that was standard or maybe a option? It seems to be good quality except for the corner blocks. The back has voids and the top c bouts has absolutely none. Do you know the build date of yours roughly?
DREAM! ...and be realistic about your expectations. Know what you are doing and why - every step of the way. If doesn't work - "WHY didn't it work? What should I have done different? ...can I still do "that"?" --- NO? Well, then I know what not to do next time. YES? Then I'll fix it - and carry on!
The journey is the teacher, arriving at the destination only validates what you've learned. Nothing lost,
Goodness - sounds like a motivation speech. Sorry.
I mean all a man can do right haha? Ive always been told you gotta be a dreamer. Besides life's to short for all the mess that comes with it.
Now let me temper that a bit....
Knowing that you could spend several hundred dollars with some one who really knows how to get the "best" out of this "wreck" - in a effort to give this fiddle the best chance it might have to become a respectable instrument - that should help you understand your chances of have a valuable instrument if you attempt this on your own.
Evaluate what that means to you and what you think about this fiddle and what you want....... what you expect.......
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/10/2026 21:16:11
Well anything that has a story peaks my interest. Im a mechanic for a living so im used to trying to bring things back to life. Now that i've done my research and found out what I like and what my expectations are. I feel ive got a good opportunity to take a look at a possible pre 1900 fiddle and its bones. Plus on the other hand im basing alot of my knowledge 2nd hand off a man who lived 67 years making fiddles. 31 was the number I believe. His son told me mine had to be one of his earliest examples, at least in the top 5. I was told he was taught by another local maker who had made a number in his time. So I think im in a good spot. I care alot about tradition and making what you got work. So im gonna give it a shot. I wouldn't say fiddle makers are scarce yet but it has definitely declined the farther we get compared to 75 or 100 years or so ago. Everyone starts some where I suppose.
Edited by - Banjobandit501 on 02/10/2026 21:28:17
quote:
Originally posted by Banjobandit501Well anything that has a story peaks my interest. Im a mechanic for a living so im used to trying to bring things back to life. Now that i've done my research and found out what I like and what my expectations are. I feel ive got a good opportunity to take a look at a possible pre 1900 fiddle and its bones. Plus on the other hand im basing alot of my knowledge 2nd hand off a man who lived 67 years making fiddles. 31 was the number I believe. His son told me mine had to be one of his earliest examples, at least in the top 5. I was told he was taught by another local maker who had made a number in his time. So I think im in a good spot. I care alot about tradition and making what you got work. So im gonna give it a shot. I wouldn't say fiddle makers are scarce yet but it has definitely declined the farther we get compared to 75 or 100 years or so ago. Everyone starts some where I suppose.
... you got my vote!
Give us updates. We can learn with you.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/10/2026 21:36:01
Adam - I'm attaching a couple pictures of my violin for comparison. I have no idea exactly how old it is. The examples I've seen have a very delicate 5 ply purfling, which yours does not, however the materials and workmanship look pretty good, although its hard to tell, its had so much abuse. The "gem" in the scroll looks like it was added by a previous owner, not any maker.
You may also be interested in this video of an instrument by the maker I mentioned that was offered for sale by an LA violin shop for nearly $10K. Yours (nor mine) would never be worth that much, but its interesting.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=HBfkIKzaO0o
One approach might be to remove the mechanical tuners (which were what you wanted in the first place) and maybe find someone with the interest, time, and expertise to restore this one, and recoup your $50.
To identify the glue, you could dip a Q tip in hot water and rub it on one of the blobs. If it dissolves or softens at all it might be hide glue, which is very hard when dry. I can't imagine anyone mixing hide glue with epoxy, but who knows?
I don't think I'd get too excited about this violin, nor give up on it either.
Good luck.
Yea I know its never gonna be what is was and if the worst part is im out 50 dollars? Ill take it, I love understanding why things are the way they are. I actually seen that video just a few days ago. I found it interesting, mine wont even be close to yours!! That is a beautiful fiddle.
If you’d like to learn about violin repair, you’ll find a decent amount of information on Maestronet. Of course, nothing beats in-person instruction, and the workshops like Learning Trade Secrets, the VSA’s Oberlin restoration workshop, and MCLA are all highly regarded and taught by renowned luthiers. There will be a VSA convention in November if you can make it, and there will likely be some great information as well as a room that will have vendors who sell many of the tools you’ll need and tone wood if you want to make violins.
There are some good excellent reference books for repair, although they’re written with the assumption that you’ve already learned violin making and are proficient with hand tools.
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulIf you’d like to learn about violin repair, you’ll find a decent amount of information on Maestronet. Of course, nothing beats in-person instruction, and the workshops like Learning Trade Secrets, the VSA’s Oberlin restoration workshop, and MCLA are all highly regarded and taught by renowned luthiers. There will be a VSA convention in November if you can make it, and there will likely be some great information as well as a room that will have vendors who sell many of the tools you’ll need and tone wood if you want to make violins.
There are some good excellent reference books for repair, although they’re written with the assumption that you’ve already learned violin making and are proficient with hand tools.
See ive never heard of any of that. Ive not been able to talk with anyone who knew instruments until recently. I mean ive done my own research and learned alot from the internet. But nothing beats hands on in person learning for me. Im a quality tool person and its hard to find what I like with out putting my hands on something that is proven to work. I will be looking into that.
quote:
Originally posted by Banjobandit501quote:
Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulIf you’d like to learn about violin repair, you’ll find a decent amount of information on Maestronet. Of course, nothing beats in-person instruction, and the workshops like Learning Trade Secrets, the VSA’s Oberlin restoration workshop, and MCLA are all highly regarded and taught by renowned luthiers. There will be a VSA convention in November if you can make it, and there will likely be some great information as well as a room that will have vendors who sell many of the tools you’ll need and tone wood if you want to make violins.
There are some good excellent reference books for repair, although they’re written with the assumption that you’ve already learned violin making and are proficient with hand tools.See ive never heard of any of that. Ive not been able to talk with anyone who knew instruments until recently. I mean ive done my own research and learned alot from the internet. But nothing beats hands on in person learning for me. Im a quality tool person and its hard to find what I like with out putting my hands on something that is proven to work. I will be looking into that.
I would recommend you join the VSA (Violin Society of America). The membership isn't expensive and you get access to lots of great information and the ability to meet many of the best people in the violin business. The website has an archive of old journals that contain lectures from past conventions, many of which are a goldmine of good info. They also put out a periodical magazine that has some interesting articles.
Aside from the VSA there are some other violin making associations (I think there's a relatively new one for makers in the Southern states). The Strad magazine has amassed some useful articles about violin making and repair over the years. You can find old issues or you can purchase compendiums of these articles titled "Trade Secrets."
Jerry Pasewicz of Triangle Strings in NC has mentored a lot of people in the repair field, and his apprentices have put together articles of the highest quality that can be found on the website. Many of the techniques taught trace directly back to René Morel.
If you want to dive into new making, there are three major violin making schools in the country as well as a few summer programs.
Like some others above I say 'have at it.' I'm a guy who's played music for years, built a couple of banjos and about 15 acoustic guitars now and currently I seem to be have started to work on "unrepairable" double basses (as determined by the local big box professional luthiers). It's a lot of fun and part of fun in life is learning new stuff.
A few bits of advice: Ask lots of questions. Online or, if possible, make the acquaintance of local violin luthiers. Almost everyone that I have met in my instrument building and repair endeavors has been hugely helpful. For instance, the first post from The Violin Beautiful has a lot of great information. Go slow. Also, Study information on line too. The internet is the world's largest worst garage sale but like a garage sale there can gems of information that will be a big help.
Good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by pmiller510Like some others above I say 'have at it.' I'm a guy who's played music for years, built a couple of banjos and about 15 acoustic guitars now and currently I seem to be have started to work on "unrepairable" double basses (as determined by the local big box professional luthiers). It's a lot of fun and part of fun in life is learning new stuff.
A few bits of advice: Ask lots of questions. Online or, if possible, make the acquaintance of local violin luthiers. Almost everyone that I have met in my instrument building and repair endeavors has been hugely helpful. For instance, the first post from The Violin Beautiful has a lot of great information. Go slow. Also, Study information on line too. The internet is the world's largest worst garage sale but like a garage sale there can gems of information that will be a big help.
Good luck.
Thank you, I appreciate the enthusiasm. I try my best to listen to everyone and what I read. Everyone has there own opinion on how things should be done and for the most part its alot of good information. Im moving slow for sure. It was a week process just to separate the back and the top haha.
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