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leather Britches - Posted - 07/24/2009: 06:36:15
Recently I have been flirting with Irish Traditional Music ( ITM ) , My biggest source for tunes
is O'Neill's book. I was wondering about the different terms I have seen in this book for Jigs.
Double Jigs are in 6/8 time except two that are in 12/8 . The Slip Jigs are all in 9/8. One of the
teaching video on this site refer to " Smash The Window " as a hop Jig while in the O'Neill book
it is listed as a Double Jig.
So what is it with these classifications , are there more , and are they all just Sub-Genre's of Jigs ?
Thanks
John
My cat stopped yelling that must be a good sign right ?
coelhoe - Posted - 07/24/2009: 07:13:35
There is good discussion of these various dance and tune forms in the front section of "The Fiddler's Fakebook," by David Brody. You should be aware, also, that there are at least two different editions of "O'Neill's..." around with the 1975 edition by Miles Krassen as the better choice.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
TomGlos - Posted - 07/24/2009: 07:54:19
Hop jigs do seem to be a bit mysterious but can probably be safely ignored most of the time!
Slip jigs are (normally) in 9:8 so that's clear enough.
It's worth paying some attention to the difference between double jigs on the one hand and single jigs or slides on the other.
Using notation to describe the difference, if the tunes are notated in 6:8 the double jig has two emphases per bar. In 6:8 the single jig or slide only has one emphasis per bar, but they're often notated in 12:8, so two emphases per bar of 12:8 come to the same thing.
Slides generally have many more quarter note-eighth note pairs, double jigs will have more groups of three eighth-notes.
The slip-jig hop-jig difference may be similar but I'll leave that to wiser folk than me!
Obviously, as always, listening is what really matters, but a bit of "theory" may help.
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
amwildman - Posted - 07/24/2009: 08:45:29
Definitively:
Double jig = generally six notes per measure. Many of them have phrases that are two bars long. Vast majority of Irish jigs are double jigs, and are generally just referred to as 'jigs.' Two beats per measure.
Single jig: Same phrase lengths as double jig, but different feel. Lots of 1/4-18th note groupings. When you do get to the three-note groupings, they are played more as triplets than the three notes of a double jig would be. DUM-DEE DUM-DEE | DUM-DEE | DIP-A-DEE sort of rhythm(and many variations). Also two beats per measure.
Slip Jig: 9/8 version of the double jig. Basically 9 notes in three beats per measure instead of 6.
Hop Jig: 9/8 version of the single jig. Depends on the tune how many notes per measure. Still three beats per measure.
Slides: Slides are single jigs, but with longer phrases. Typically in 12/8 time. The weird thing is that these are played more as fast hornpipes than as jigs. They have a more 'square' feel to them than any other jig types, and sometimes almost seem to be in 4/4 time. Groups of three 1/8th notes are definitely played as triplets. Mainly found in the Kerry/Cork area of Ireland. Any single jig can be played as a slide and vice-versa, but they are definitely different.
They are all jigs of one type or another. The problem is that there are no definite boundaries. Some tunes have elements of more than one type of jig. Hops and slipjigs are notoriously confusing.
Examples:
Double jig: Out on the Ocean http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/108
Single Jig: Bill Collins http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2217
Hop Jig: Dusty Miller http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/28
Slip Jig: Kid on the Mountain: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/52
Slide: Cuz Teehan's http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2613
Edited by - amwildman on 07/24/2009 10:57:29
TomGlos - Posted - 07/24/2009: 08:50:44
Definitive hey!
That's nice and clear amwildman, thanks.
So where do the two emphases per measure of the hop jig come?
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
amwildman - Posted - 07/24/2009: 09:31:19
I'm not an expert on hop jigs, mind you, but the first and third beats of each measure seem to be stronger than the second. I only play a couple, and it's been a long time since I've practiced them; I'm on a reel and slide bender right now. I could be wrong.
TomGlos - Posted - 07/24/2009: 09:46:21
A sort of 9:8 Polska then, sounds good to me!!!!
"I'm on a reel and slide bender right now." Fair play to you.
Jigs seem to have slight "poor relation" status in "ITM" but there are so many wonderfully characterful jigs.
A well played, nice and relaxed jig is a darling thing, IHMO!
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 07/24/2009: 09:47:38
Hop jigs are a new breed around here. Rappers, tired of having written the same songs to the same beat for decades now, have decided to try rapping to a 6/8 time and dancing around like Irishmen. If I recollect correctly, the last "Hip hop" jig I heard went something like this (to the tune "Irish Washer Woman"):
I'm a tired of hip hop, always the say-ee-ame,
Gonna try a brand new gay-ee-ame,
Me and my homies a breaking the mold,
Watch us dance, watch our records go gold--
(Gang signs flash, scratch screech of record player, etc.)
Tired of pants falling all dow-ow-own
'Til all is bared to my home tow-ow-own,
Mayhap wearing a kilt I will try-eye-eye,
'Long with my cap skewed to the side--
And so on.
She was only a whiskey maker, yet I loved her still.
amwildman - Posted - 07/24/2009: 10:12:09
I did a quick take on a hop jig and posted it on my homepage. http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang....asp?id=1817 It's the one entitled 'The Boys of Ballisodare.' Sorry about the lack of feeling, but I still consider myself a rookie. Plus, my playing time has been limited by a sore neck lately. It still gives a pretty decent idea of what a hop jig sounds like, though.
DougD - Posted - 07/24/2009: 10:40:00
amwildman, you said of the hop jig: "Hop Jig: 9/8 version of the single jig. Depends on the tune how many notes per measure. Still two beats per measure."
How can a tune in 9/8 have two beats per measure? 9 isn't divisible by two is it?
There was disagreement in those threads at the session as to whether hop jigs are 6/8 or 9/8. Perhaps the term is used in different ways in different areas?
The people who described them as 6/8 said the rhythm was usually quarter - eighth, rather than the three eighths of a "normal" jig. One example cited was "Pop goes the weasel," which does have that rhythm.
amwildman - Posted - 07/24/2009: 10:57:00
Sorry, I meant three beats per measure. Hop jigs and slip jigs are in threes.
Edited by - amwildman on 07/24/2009 11:51:39
amwildman - Posted - 07/24/2009: 11:03:33
And as much as the folks at thesession.org present themselves as experts, many are far from it. There are tons of comments and tunes posted by people who obviously know little about the music, or do not feel the music properly; yet they present things as if they do. These are the same people who think Lunasa and Solas are traditional. Take everything there with a grain of salt.
Listen to the recording I just posted. The B part really brings out the 9/8 meter.
amwildman - Posted - 07/24/2009: 11:14:21
Pop Goes the Weasel is a Single Jig.
Round and Round the | Mulberry Bush the| Mon key Chased the| Wea sel |
Mon key Thought it was | All the Fuuuuuun | Pop Goes the | Wea sel|
Bum-dee Bum-dee| Bum-dee-dee Bump| is a single jig format. Two beats per measure, with 'Mulberry' and 'Thought it was' being those sort-of triplets I mentioned earlier. 'Round and Round the mulberry bush" is the first phrase, and it's two bars long, as well as having 4 beats. Fits perfectly into the definition of a single jig.
leather Britches - Posted - 07/25/2009: 07:18:53
quote:
Originally posted by coelhoe
There is good discussion of these various dance and tune forms in the front section of "The Fiddler's Fakebook," by David Brody. You should be aware, also, that there are at least two different editions of "O'Neill's..." around with the 1975 edition by Miles Krassen as the better choice.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
Dennis,
Thanks for mentioning The Fake book , I have read through the beginning a number of times and for what ever reason that information didn't sink in.
As far as O'Neill's, my version was published by Daniel Collins for Rock Press.
I was looking through a book I have called " Irish Music and Dance " by Dianna Boullier ( O'Brian Press ) and she said, " There are three types of Jigs , double jigs, slip or hop jigs and single jig or slide "
This may be a generalization , could the slip and hop be distinguished by were the emphases on the beat is placed also
with the single jig and slide ?
Another point of interest: in the same book " Irish Music and Dance " she clams the first jig was composed by a harper named Thomas Connellan, and it is included in a book called " Neale's Celebrated Irish Tunes " published in 1726. This book is out of print, but it would be great to get a hold of. She didn't mention the name of the jig through.
I don't think a real answer will come out of this, but the discusstion is pretty intersting.
My cat stopped yelling that must be a good sign right ?
amwildman - Posted - 07/25/2009: 19:55:34
" could the slip and hop be distinguished by were the emphases on the beat is placed"
Possibly. You'd have to do a bit of listening to learn where the emphases are placed. The differences between tune types are more apparent by general feel of the tune. Hop jigs are more hoppy or bouncy. Slip jigs are more slippy, or rolling.
''also with the single jig and slide ?''
Also possibly. Slides are unique to the Kerry/Cork area. Slides are basically Kerry's version of the single jig. As such, there is no real point in distinguishing them, except for stylistic differences in playing between regions and the difference in phrase length. Slides have longer phrases and as such feel different than single jigs. There is no significant difference, really. Any single jig can be played as a slide and vice-versa. The biggest differences are the regional stylistic differences. Perhaps the phrasing causes them to be played slightly differently. I don't really know. The strongest accent will be at the start of the phrase, after that it's pretty much up to the player. As for the name, Slides do tend to feel like they're sliding, possibly because of the original dance. I'm not sure. Also not sure where the names single and double jigs came from.
You'll have to listen to lots of cds and get quite involved with Irish music if you really want to know the differences.
TomGlos - Posted - 07/26/2009: 01:33:39
Although it's tempting to use the terms single and double to refer to the number of emphases per 6:8 measure, I think a lot of the answers to these questions are with the dancers.
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
amwildman - Posted - 07/26/2009: 08:12:26
Single and double do not refer to the number of beats per measure. There are still two beats per measure in both types of jigs. I appreciate that you realize the dance is important to the structure of the music (this is dance music, after all)but the differences between the two lie elsewhere. Wish I could attend the local dances, as it would help my understanding of the music tremendously, but my bad knee won't allow it just yet.
Some beats do get emphasized more strongly than others. This applies to all types of jigs. To my knowledge, it's all in the phrasing and feel of a particular tune, as well as individuality among players. I do know that the first beat of each new phrase is strongly emphasized. After that, I go by feel and listening to good players. Any more is just overanalyzing to me.
TomGlos - Posted - 07/26/2009: 09:09:47
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
Single and double do not refer to the number of beats per measure.[1]
There are still two beats per measure in both types of jigs. [2] .......
...any more is just overanalyzing to me.[3]
1. That's why I said "Although it's tempting..."
2. That's why I used the word emphases rather than beats.
3. Can't argue with "listen and feel" but there's been quite a lot of analysis in this thread already...... A measure of structure can help instinct grasp what's going on.
But thank you for the clarification!
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
amwildman - Posted - 07/26/2009: 09:33:45
quote:
Originally posted by TomGlos
3. Can't argue with "listen and feel" but there's been quite a lot of analysis in this thread already...... A measure of structure can help instinct grasp what's going on.
Except that instinct won't help at all when one is learning from O'Neill's. Either structure or instinct by themselves does no good. You've got to have some of both.
TomGlos - Posted - 07/26/2009: 15:20:04
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
quote:
Originally posted by TomGlos
3. Can't argue with "listen and feel" but there's been quite a lot of analysis in this thread already...... A measure of structure can help instinct grasp what's going on.
Except that instinct won't help at all when one is learning from O'Neill's. Either structure or instinct by themselves does no good. You've got to have some of both.
Isn't that what I said?
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
amwildman - Posted - 07/26/2009: 15:49:15
No. You were speaking in generalities while I was applying a similar sentiment specifically to O'Neills.
Your general, somewhat ambiguous posts and my more specific posts will probably overlap a bit. You shouldn't take umbrage when this happens.
TomGlos - Posted - 07/27/2009: 01:32:16
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
No. You were speaking in generalities while I was applying a similar sentiment specifically to O'Neills.
Your general, somewhat ambiguous posts and my more specific posts will probably overlap a bit. You shouldn't take umbrage when this happens.
Not even just a little bit?
[Edit - To remove potential transatlantic ambiguity.]
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
Edited by - TomGlos on 07/27/2009 01:33:39
leather Britches - Posted - 07/27/2009: 05:01:15
Concerning " Slips and Hops" is seems to be more about lilt then structure, and the dance will dictate this.
I agree that more listening and less analyzing would be more helpful. I thank you for your knowledge in this
subject.
Have any of you played any Irish dances before ?
I have played contra dances and the jig is treated from my experience as a jig and nothing more, or at least
I'll pay more attention in the future to see if this holds true.
Whiskey Your the Devil
fiddlecraver - Posted - 07/27/2009: 07:40:53
Best advice I could give on Irish music is starty listening to ALOT of it. The book is fine, but the music is alive and well and there are of a ton of recordings you can reference to answer your questions first hand..
-Shawn
amwildman - Posted - 07/27/2009: 08:37:46
leather Britches: slips vs hops and single vs double is just as much about structure as is it is about playing style, or lilt as you call it. Dances and music evolved and grew together over the years. It's only recently that dance has had less of an influence on the music.
From what I've seen at contras here, all the jigs are doubles. That would result in making a jig just a jig. Although, a good swift single jig or slide would get them hopping. Usually played much faster than doubles.
[/quote]
Not even just a little bit?
[/quote]
Ok. Just a little bit. 
Edited by - amwildman on 07/27/2009 08:38:44
leather Britches - Posted - 07/27/2009: 15:23:20
I may be just slitting hairs, but I have come to think ( as per this topic and other readings ) that the Double Jig and The Hop Jig being in both 6/8 are similar structurally, but played with a
different lilt ( if in fact I'm using the word correctly, I think of it as Grove ) were as the Single Jig and Slide both use 9/8 and both are also played with a different " Grove" or " Lilt."
Like it has been said by many much wiser folks then me " listen to the music " that is my next journey, as well become more familiar with the different dances that are performed.
I may be able to see the "Hop" or the" Slide" in the dance steps.
I don't even want to talk about the others types of tunes yet ,but as the names implies it's all about the dance !
Whiskey Your the Devil
