petehay - Posted - 07/08/2009:  09:49:10

---

I am a 6 month newbie who is trying to get a handle on double stops. I am trying to understand some theory here and would like to see if I'm on the right track. I have a background with guitar and a little bit of chord formation on the mandolin but working with just 2 strings (notes) is challenging me.

I can find the 1-6m-4-5 progressions in the common scales (C,D,G,A) on the fiddle so I'm OK for playing back-up chops but I'm trying to understand the use of doublestops in the melody. Last night I think I picked out playing the G scale and D scale using DS as shown below:

G Scale
G D A E
-------
B G
  D A
  D B
  E C
  F#D
    A E
    A F#
    B G 

D Scale
G D A E
-------
A D
G E
A F#
B G
  D A
  D B
  E C#
  F#D

Now I think that playing the same scales using chords on the guitar would be:
G Scale = G Am Bm C D Em F#m G
D Scale = D Em F#m G A Bm c#m D

Is this correct and is this what I am essentially playing on the fiddle?

Pete in Portland

---

Edited by - petehay on 07/08/2009 13:45:36

deckda - Posted - 07/08/2009:  11:17:16

---

you're playing the scales in thirds (inverted thirds), but there's a catch...
when you play two open strings together you're playing a fifth; this makes the bottom note the root.
In the G scale the D and A together sound a D, and not an A minor.
Also A and E sound an A, not E minor.
if playing these as thirds is what you want, you'll need to get that pinky workin'; that way you can hit the A on the D string as well as the C on the G string to sound an A minor. transfer the same thing up to get the E minor.
Violin chording is a whole different critter from guitars and keytboards.

petehay - Posted - 07/08/2009:  12:35:24

---

decka,
Am I playing the scale incorrectly (even though it sounds OK)? Or am I just naming the chords incorrectly and playing the scale in an acceptable manner? Is there another way to play scales using double stops?

Pete in Portland

deckda - Posted - 07/08/2009:  13:20:51

---

you aren't playing wrong at all; you're just not playing quite what you thought you were.
Your G scale is the one that carresponds mostly to thirds. your D scale is accentuating different harmonies with each note, and except for the D/A combo, you've written that out right. you've got a handle on it, but just listen to what the D/A sound like when you're backing up a melody.
Thinking in terms of progressions, the simultaneous D/A would br the fifth if you're playing in the key of G. The fifth isn't too far OUT THERE relative to the key of G, so yeah, it sounds cool.
look around the net for scale charts/chord charts, they're out there but I can't think of a site off the top of my head. if I see any I'll send you a link.
I bet that someone with a better handle on theory than I have will give you a better response, and soon., so keep an eye posted.
good luck

leather Britches - Posted - 07/09/2009:  05:53:08

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by petehay

I am a 6 month newbie who is trying to get a handle on double stops. I am trying to understand some theory here and would like to see if I'm on the right track. I have a background with guitar and a little bit of chord formation on the mandolin but working with just 2 strings (notes) is challenging me.

I can find the 1-6m-4-5 progressions in the common scales (C,D,G,A) on the fiddle so I'm OK for playing back-up chops but I'm trying to understand the use of doublestops in the melody. Last night I think I picked out playing the G scale and D scale using DS as shown below:

G Scale
G D A E
-------
B G
  D A  Maj. 4th  - ( A C ) Min. 3rd
  D B
  E C
  F#D
    A E  Maj. 4th - ( G E ) Min. 3rd
    A F#
    B G 

D Scale
G D A E
-------
A D   perfect 5 th ( F# D ) Maj 3rd
G E
A F#
B G
  D A Maj.4th ( C# A ) Maj. 3 rd.
  D B
  E C#
  F#D

Now I think that playing the same scales using chords on the guitar would be:
G Scale = G Am Bm C D Em F#m G
D Scale = D Em F#m G A Bm c#m D

Is this correct and is this what I am essentially playing on the fiddle?

Pete in Portland

---

Hello Pete,

I been at the fiddle for a few years and while I have a good handle on the Theory the usage still needs some work.
Decka is right that your scales are inverted that's not to say they are wrong just inverted.
I did make some changes to your scales and as you see some of the double stops are impossible to play this way, but you will also notice that mostly all of what your playing is correct as a matter of fact I think Im going to try it this way too.
If you invert the notes so you have the root on top you will find those double stops to have flaws also.
In my limited experience as a fiddler is seems if you want to play something that sounds drony play the fifth or the root of the cord your playing the melody over.
If you want to play a double stop with-in the melody play a third or a sixth. also to open up more possibilities work on the flatted seventh. Playing the arpeggios with each chord can be very helpful.
Just a quick note the VII chord is a Diminished chord F# Maj. ( F# A# C# ) F# Min ( F# A C# ) F# dim ( F# A C )

Im sure more experienced fiddles will have some great information on such matters, I have much more work to do to get a good handle on usage.

Hope this helps you out
John

My cat stopped yelling that must be a good sign right ?

woodwiz - Posted - 07/09/2009:  06:36:57

---

The vii chord is diminished, neither major nor minor. In the G scale the diatonic vii chord is F# dim, F# A C, and in the D scale, it is c#dim, C# E G.

Michael R

www.kcstrings.com
"You''ll love the way you sound"

"Thank you for the wonderful violin you made. I''ve used it on every show I''ve played since I''ve got it." John Hartford

petehay - Posted - 07/09/2009:  11:19:31

---

Thank you all for your helpful responses. I should have remembered (or looked it up) that the vii chord is diminished. Deckda was thoughtful enough to email me with encouragement and ideas. I'd like to find some printed material regarding melodic doublestops for the beginner and good tunes to practice them with.

I think I'm looking for two things;
First would be a comprehensive look at doublestops (a chart?) from a theoretical point of view ie: "Here is the G major scale played in thirds, here it is in inverted thirds, here it is in fourths, here it is in fifths, here it is in sixths etc, etc - Now here is the D major scale played in thirds ..." in my mind more of a violinist's point of view.

Second would be "Now let's go back to the first example (G major in thirds). Notice that the third (I'm making this up) doublestop in this sequence is hard (or inconvienient) to finger so you can use this other combination (be it a sixth or whatever) as a substitute and it will sound fine, maybe not theoretically correct but you can slide it in and it works." This to me would be more of a fiddler's approach to the situation.

Sorry for all of the parenthesis above.

Is this a worthwhile pursuit? Am I over-thinking the whole thing? Am I under-thinking the whole thing?


Pete in Portland