curlyrayfan - Posted - 05/03/2009:  15:47:16

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I've been wondering what a 'rag' is for quite some time now...

Example:
Black Mountain Rag

Is that a certain type of tune kind of like a breakdown or hornpipe or something?
Does it have something to do with timing?

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“I''ve always called my music old time mountain music or old time bluegrass music. I wouldn''t have it any other way."
-Ralph Stanley

bsed - Posted - 05/03/2009:  16:15:04

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They're played in 4/4 time. If you're playing one at a contest, particularly a western contest, it would be a "tune of choice". Meaning it's not a breakdown or hoedown or reel; and it's not a waltz ( wrong meter).

Rags are often played in keys of C, F, but also G and other regular keys as well.

Rags are often not played in AABB form. Many rags have C,D,E or more parts.
And I know a rag that is played ABCADE (3 IN 1 TWO STEP, recorded by the East Texas Serenaders).

Rags also often change keys between some of the parts.

That is almost all I know about rags, except they sure are a lot of fun to play.
I've found that rags can hold their secrets, and it's up to me to figure out the right key to fit in the lock.
That is to say, rags can be kind of challenging to figure out how to play 'em till you get "inside" the tune a little bit.

Just call me Dwight.

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Edited by - bsed on 05/03/2009 16:17:20

whigski - Posted - 05/03/2009:  16:23:46

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Here's a link to "ragtime" at wikipedia.org.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragtime

I'm a fan of the art form.
At the risk of mimicking Yogi Berra, "I was there before I was here!".

Bill

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Edited by - whigski on 05/03/2009 16:31:31

OTJunky - Posted - 05/03/2009:  16:27:53

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Usually the term "rag" is applied to a tune with a syncopated rhythm.

The "rag bow" refers to a bowing where three beats are played on one bow, the next three beats are played on another bow, and the remaining two beats can be played on one bow, or bowed separately.

You can hear this distinctive rhythm pattern in the first bars of "Dill Pickle Rag" and in the B part of "Pig Ankle Rag".

Sometimes the actual melody has a syncopated note pattern - as in the two tunes mentioned above. Sometimes the melody notes don't convey the syncopation, but the syncopation is conveyed with the bowing - as in the A part of "Stone's Rag" or in "I Don't Love Nobody".

When the melody notes do convey the syncopation it's common for fiddlers to use some bowing other than the "rag bow" on that part of the melody since the tune can - according to personal taste - be made more "interesting" with some other bowing.

The syncopation in "Black Mountain Rag" is in the A part. The B and C parts mostly just sound like a fiddle tune. And some fiddlers don't even play the A part using any syncopated bowing beyond what they'd use on any other fiddle tune.

Another characteristic of most rags - like "Beaumont Rag" and "Black and White Rag" is the distinctive use of the "Cycle of Fifths" in the chord progression. Though "Black Mountain Rag" doesn't have this kind of chord progression. So, you might say it''s "barely a rag".

"Cotton Patch Rag" doesn't use the cycle of fifths in its chord progression either. But it's definitely a "rag" since there's syncopation throughout most of it. In fact, that tune's basically a show case for syncopated bowing tricks.

I have met some few fiddlers though that just use the term "rag" as a synonym for "novelty tune".

Edited to correct some spelling

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 05/04/2009 06:00:56

curlyrayfan - Posted - 05/03/2009:  19:16:15

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Thanks guys....those are excellent answers. I have found my answer...

_______________________________________________________________

“I''ve always called my music old time mountain music or old time bluegrass music. I wouldn''t have it any other way."
-Ralph Stanley

lrhamp - Posted - 05/04/2009:  04:57:42

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Rags are a lot of fun to play. I think of them as being characterized by more than three keys changes. Peacock Rag (Arthur Smith) is one of my favorites( I'm still working out the kinks). Stone's Rag( Lone Star Rag) and Black and White Rag are heard a lot at contests. Saturday Night Rag as played by Lonnie Robertson is a real gem. If anyone has a recording of it let me know. I lost my tape of it.

lrhamp

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Edited by - lrhamp on 05/04/2009 04:59:43

DougD - Posted - 05/04/2009:  05:51:11

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Irhamp - Do you mean "characterized by more than three chords?" I could see that in relation to the "circle of fifths" progression OTJ mentioned. Many rags have a trio section that modulates to another key - "Dill Pickles" goes from G to C for example, and I think "Mineola Rag" goes from D to G. This is often attributed to the influence of Sousa-type marches, but its not uncommon in other pop music of the day either. But I think "more than three key changes" would be rare.

And OTJ - I know its impolite to comment on spelling, but your "synchopation" makes me uneashy.

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Edited by - DougD on 05/04/2009 05:54:24

OTJunky - Posted - 05/04/2009:  05:58:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

And OTJ - I know its impolite to comment on spelling, but your "synchopation" makes me uneashy.

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I can see why.

It's hard to see how everybody else in the world can have misspelled this word for so long.

But I'll go back and change my spelling of it just to be consistent...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

DougD - Posted - 05/04/2009:  06:21:08

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Thanks OTJ. I feel much better now.

“It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word.” - Andrew Jackson

Dick Hauser - Posted - 05/04/2009:  07:50:44

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"Black Mountain Rag" may have been a rag at one time, but it is now a breakdown. Here is a story one fiddler related to me concerning "ragtime" tunes. I am not responsible for the credibility of his story.

Black American pianists were the first musicians to play ragtime. Unlike other musicians of the time, who emphasized the downbeat, these pianists emphasized the "off beat" (i.e. upbeat). Other musicians thought that the piano players tunes sounded "ragged".

The popular fiddle tune "Ragtime Annie" was originally a piano tune. I would like to hear it played in its original form. Like lots of other types of tunes, some rags kept their titles, but gradually changed into other types of tunes.



gulfguy

DougD - Posted - 05/04/2009:  07:57:51

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Hi Dick,
Have you found any piano music, or even a hint of a piano recording of "Ragtime Annie?" I've looked around and can't find anything earlier than Eck Robertson's recording (which does have a key change to G).

BTW, fiddler Leslie Keith claimed to have written "Black Mountain Rag" in the early 1940's, long after the heyday of ragtime, and he called it "Black Mountain Blues," which you still hear around here. The "rag" title came later.

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Edited by - DougD on 05/04/2009 08:08:41

OTJunky - Posted - 05/04/2009:  08:12:39

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So I was told - many years ago - that Curly Fox is the guy that "dressed up" Black Mountain Blues" for a Nashville audience and renamed it "Black Mountain Rag".

I wonder if it's true?

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

DougD - Posted - 05/04/2009:  08:16:44

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That's what it says at the Fiddler's Companion. Apparently Curly Fox recorded it in 1947 with the "rag" title and it became a big hit. Also the melody, form, and tuning all seem to come from the tune "Lost Child" as played by, for example, the Stripling Brothers.

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Edited by - DougD on 05/04/2009 08:17:17

dsreiner - Posted - 05/04/2009:  08:51:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by DougD
...Also the melody, form, and tuning all seem to come from the tune "Lost Child" as played by, for example, the Stripling Brothers.

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I'll second DougD's comment. I transcribed Charles Stripling's "The Lost Child" for my Oldtime Fiddling Across America partly because it was the obvious source of Black Mountain Rag. It was in C# A E A tuning (hi to low), which has come to be known as "Black Mountain Rag tuning." The Stripling Brothers recorded from 1928-1936 (at least on County 401), and Charles learned the tune from a neighbor, Pleas Carroll, and added the pizzicato variations himself for contests.

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (next Nov 13-15, 2009)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

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Edited by - dsreiner on 05/04/2009 08:53:13

M-D - Posted - 05/04/2009:  09:16:16

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There is also a tune known as Black Mountain Breakdown, played in AEac#, that was brought to these hills in 1865, by Williamson A. Younger, then a soldier returning from campaigns in the East. His last major battle was the last of that war, at Bentonville, North Carolina. This tune is obviously related to Lost Child, ergo Black Mountain Rag, but there is no pizzicato, or the plucking of strings in BMB.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Old-Time, All the Time

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

lrhamp - Posted - 05/04/2009:  09:49:39

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Yep Doug------Chords is what I should have written...I just mispelled KEYS.. And btw----everyone please forgive any sMelling that I have made in the past or may make in the future.

lrhamp

M-D - Posted - 05/04/2009:  10:55:29

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Same thing, only different, Luther.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Old-Time, All the Time

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

echord - Posted - 05/04/2009:  11:55:32

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In addition to annoying my neighbors with my fiddle playing, I also drive them to distraction with my attempts at ragtime piano.

As I understand it, technically rags are syncopated tunes in duple time using middle-of-the-bar and across-the-bar ties, and a figure known as "secondary rag" -- i.e., a repeated 3 note phrase over a 4/4 bass, such as found in "Dill Pickles" and "Black And White Rag," both originally piano compositions, but now standard fiddle tunes as well. It is those particular figures which give rags their off-beat sound. True piano rags usually have 3 or 4 non-developmental themes, each consisting of 16 measures, commonly in AABBCCDD sequence. Most fiddle rags, or raggy sounding tunes, use an AABB structure and 8 or 12 measure themes. Phew!

Generally speaking, rags were piano pieces derived from early southern banjo syncopations. Like the blues, the popularity of ragtime music (from about 1890 to 1920, such as the compositions of Scott Joplin, James Scott, etc.) heavily influenced both jazz and traditional music, but many fiddle tunes such as "Ragtime Annie" or "Black Mountain Rag" are not true rags at all -- they simply sound "raggy" in the same sense that "Stormy Weather" sounds bluesy but has none of the characteristics of true blues form (which is, according to Elmer Bernstein, a 12 bar chord progression on the I, IV and V chords and iambic pentameter lyrics).

Some original fiddle tunes, such as "Stone's Rag" or "Pig Ankle Rag" do qualify as true rags though, since they use middle-of-the bar ties (re: the second, sixth, tenth and eleventh measures of "Pig Ankle" and also the secondary rag figure used in the B section of that tune). Of course, like most musical forms, rags and blues are flexible and there are many variants from the technical strictures of the original style.

Borrowing from musical genres works both ways, in fact. Many classic ragtime pieces such as "Down Home Rag." "Tickle The Ivories" "Good Gravy Rag," "Raggin The Scale," and such, used a dotted eighth note rhythm indistinguishable from a hornpipe. Go figure.

I should add to this speil that, as someone mentioned earlier, piano rags almost always change key at the trio section, whereas many fiddle rags may or may not.

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Edited by - echord on 05/04/2009 12:11:30

curlyrayfan - Posted - 05/04/2009:  13:34:38

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Let me get this straight...Black mountain rag really isnt a rag...

I've refered to it before as Black Mountain Blues, so I guess I'll start using this title

_______________________________________________________________

“I''ve always called my music old time mountain music or old time bluegrass music. I wouldn''t have it any other way."
-Ralph Stanley

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Edited by - curlyrayfan on 05/04/2009 13:35:14

echord - Posted - 05/04/2009:  14:28:26

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Black Mountain Rag isn't a formal rag in that it does not use the various syncopation figures that define a rag (Scott Joplin demonstrates a number of these figures in his "School Of Ragtime composition), mainly the across-the-bar and middle-of-the bar ties, the secondary rag figure, and a few others.

I always heard that BMR was originally called Black Mountain Blues, but it ain't a true blues either It's just a darn cool fiddle tune, I reckon.

Just to be technically correct, I should revise my previous reply on this topic and note that the structure of a classic rag is actually AABBACCDD (as in the Maple Leaf Rag, for example) but as noted, there are many variations in the form.

Incidentally, for those of you interested in Ragtime in general, the annual Scott Joplin Ragtime Festival is coming up the first weekend in June in Sedalia, MO.
This is a wonderful festival of piano playing, string bands and dances featuring some of the best musicians in the world and well worth a weekend trip. For more information see the festival web site at http://www.scottjoplin.org/

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Edited by - echord on 05/04/2009 21:33:41