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OTJunky - Posted - 04/17/2009: 17:07:57
Good for you. Most people play the watered down revival version. You're after Tommy Jarrell's version - and have a pretty good start on it.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 04/17/2009: 23:58:52
This is my very favorite old time tune to play on fiddle, banjo and my mando! An A Mixolydian Key of D. Cockerham, Jarrell, and Jenkins recorded it, as well as, Red Clay Ramblers and Roger Sprung and Hal Wylie.
DougD - Posted - 04/18/2009: 04:19:44
Nice job, yawnofthedead. Fiddlepiper, what do you mean "An A Mixolydian Key of D?" If its A Mixolydian, isn't that the key? (And yes I know that A Mixolydian has only two sharps, similar to D, not three like A major).
Dick Hauser - Posted - 04/18/2009: 13:14:59
I have seen June Apple played in the key of A mixolydian. All the "G" notes were changed to naturals. So, in essence, you might as well think of the tune as being in the key of "D".
In one newsgroup, members complained about this and thought that the key signature should just contain the notes that had to be sharpened or flattened.
gulfguy
DougD - Posted - 04/18/2009: 13:31:17
Yes Dick, June Apple is usually played in A mixolydian, with a G natural instead of sharp. But to me that makes it exactly that: A mixolydian, not D, because the tune doesn't begin or end on D. "Do" is A. I was just looking at the notation for a tune like this mentioned in another thread, and although the key signature suggests D, the tune itself is obviously in A, just the mixolydian mode, not the major (Ionian).
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 04/18/2009: 13:32:07
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Nice job, yawnofthedead. Fiddlepiper, what do you mean "An A Mixolydian Key of D?" If its A Mixolydian, isn't that the key? (And yes I know that A Mixolydian has only two sharps, similar to D, not three like A major).
Doug,
A Mixolydian also has the same notes as D maj. The A Mixolydian mode is based on D maj. All 3 scales A Mix=E dorian and D maj. It works on the A7 chord.
A good visual explanation with charts at:
http://www.chrisjuergensen.com.host...xolydian.htm
Edited by - Fiddlepiper on 04/18/2009 13:51:55
OTJunky - Posted - 04/18/2009: 13:41:50
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Yes Dick, June Apple is usually played in A mixolydian, with a G natural instead of sharp. But to me that makes it exactly that: A mixolydian, not D, because the tune doesn't begin or end on D. "Do" is A. I was just looking at the notation for a tune like this mentioned in another thread, and although the key signature suggests D, the tune itself is obviously in A, just the mixolydian mode, not the major (Ionian).
I think this is exactly right...
And it's what you see in transcriptions of the tune.
But though I hate to unnecessarily complicate the discussion, I swear that Tommy Jarrel gives a nod to the Ionian mode at the end of the fine part by playing B, A, G#,B, A for the last five notes.
This could be because he's in AEAE and it's harder to hit the G-natural in that run than the G#, it could be that that particular run is a Round Peak musical "idiom" - or it could be a problem with my hearing and just I'm wrong about it.
But the good news is that you can play that run with the G-natural or the G# and it doesn't matter much. Ain't old time fiddling grand...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
DougD - Posted - 04/18/2009: 13:46:40
Fiddlepiper - Yes, I know that A mixolydian has the same notes as D maj. However I would not say it is based on D maj. It is (to me anyway) an A scale with the sequence of intervals of the Mixolydian mode (meaning the seventh tone is a half step above the sixth, not a full step). The effect is completely different than those same notes starting on D.
This has been discussed here ad infinitum, and it seems that different people have developed different ways of understanding it.
June Apple is not in D. It is in A, mixolydian mode. Thats how it will be described in any notated source, like this: http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/JR._JZ.htm
OTJ - You snuck a post in on me there! I don't have Tommy's version handy right now, but Dave Reiner was discussing this same thing in the "Wild Rose of the Mountain" thread. It happens.
Edited by - DougD on 04/18/2009 13:59:48
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 04/18/2009: 14:01:27
Your link can be played in standard or Tommy's tuning as discussed above. Doug, do you have The Fiddlers Fakebook? Go to p. 153 and look at the key signature please.
DougD - Posted - 04/18/2009: 14:11:20
Fiddlepiper - Yes, I have the Fiddler's Fakebook, and yes I see the key signature - two sharps - A mixolydian, just as it says.
I'm not interested in debating this. As I said different people have developed their own ways of seeing it, and you're entitled to yours.
PS - While you're in the Fakebook, check out the transcriptions of "Kitchen Girl" or "Betty Liken." Those transcriptions are based on my own playing (not always correctly), and I can tell you they are in the key of A, mixolydian mode.
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 04/18/2009: 14:26:21
Doug, there is no debating over music theory, or, as I see it. If it's in the Key of D, you play the F# or C#, unless the fiddler you're listening to is playing a natural note, and you want to play it that way too. If your playing G# along with F# and C# you are in the Key of A. You may play it as a G natural...as changed note..occidental. I was making a nice casual remark, and it has turned out to be a critique on theory. Whats up???
DougD - Posted - 04/18/2009: 14:39:40
As I said, I'm not interested in a debate. Its been done to death. The key of D major has two sharps. So does the key of A mixolydian. That still doesn't make it the key of D. Check OTJunky's response above, and look at the section "Modes and Key Signatures" on page 15 of the Fakebook to see the convention's David Brody chose to use. As a piper you may look at this differently.
You may think there is no debating over music theory, but there's been plenty here, and on other music forums!
I'll say one more time you're entitled to look at this however you wish, but try going to a jam session and saying you want to play "June Apple" in D and see what happens.
Edited by - DougD on 04/18/2009 14:48:00
OTJunky - Posted - 04/18/2009: 14:53:14
DougD and I have both spent a lot of time as back-up guitar players.
I can't speak for Doug, but here's how I think about it.
If you back up a tune like "Breaking up Christmas" (A Ionian, you end the tune on an A major chord.
If you back up a tune like "Cluck Old Hen" (A Dorian), you end the tune on an A minor chord.
If you back up a tune like "June Apple" (A Mixolydian), you end the tune on an A major chord.
Because we end these tunes on chords that have A as the root, we tend to say that each of these tunes is in the key of A - but then qualify the key with the modality of the scale.
So, most guitar players will say the "key" of these fiddle tunes is...
Breaking Up Christman - A major
Cluck Old Hen - A Dorian
June Apple - A Mixolydian.
We wouldn't say a tune is in the key of D unless we end the tune on a D chord (major or minor)
So we would say that "Soldier's Joy" is in the key of D major - because we end the tune on a D major chord and because the scale used is an Ionian (major) mode scale.
The term "major" is used both to describe the a chord with a root, major third, and fifth - and to describe a particular scale - the Ionian mode scale.
So guitar players think the A Mixolydian scale is in fact a different scale than the D major scale - even though they both have the same key signature. We think they're different because the A Mixolydian scale has the A note as it's "tonic" and the D major scale has the D note as it's "tonic" - and the two scales want different chords.
I don't know whether anything I've just said conforms to any "formal" music theory or not - but I'm pretty sure it's the way most back-up guitar players think about it.
But as Doug said - you don't have to think about it this way, if another way works for you...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 04/18/2009 14:55:55
DougD - Posted - 04/18/2009: 17:11:17
Hey folks, I don't want to hijack yawnofthedead's thread (unless he wants to tell us what key he thought he was playing in) and I certainly don't want to start another thread on this topic - I just survived a fiery one on another forum!
OTJ, I will say that when I was playing more guitar I thought of it this way:
1. Key of A
2. A minor, seldom if ever used in what I was playing
3. That other funny one with the G chord
I'm a bit miffed the transcribers haven't followed my terminology, but they know more than I.
Cheers to all!
rafa - Posted - 04/18/2009: 18:21:19
Hey Guys ,great discussion. Please keep it up. Wealth of imformation
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 04/18/2009: 20:16:35
Thanks OT for your explanation. I see now where you and Doug are coming from, and it is a different genre than I'm use to. We have no guitar players in our pipeband. And we do not have a guitar player in our celtic band, but could use a good one!
bosco - Posted - 04/19/2009: 04:50:53
The scale and key are deferent things.
Yes, It's in D major scale. DEF#GABC#. And D is the root not( I ).
And A mixolydian is ABC#DEF#G The root note is "A". D is IV ( not I ). E is V. And G is VII. There are many tunes end with V chord. So the tune ends with A chord doesn't mean it's in key of A. The ROOT NOTE is the key.
Yes, A mixolydian has 2 # signature. But it doesn't mean key of D. It's 3 #(key of A) and 1 b (# + b =natural, which is G). You can write 3# signature and put b on every G# notes if you like, but it's more simple just write 2#.
One thing I don't agree with you guys here. I don't quite play June Apple in mixolidyan. I play G note little higher and like to have E chord instead of G chord back me up.
Bosco
Konnichiwa, arigato, sayonara
Edited by - bosco on 04/19/2009 05:57:07
OTJunky - Posted - 04/19/2009: 04:54:05
quote:
Originally posted by bosco
One thing I don't agree with you guys here. I don't quite play June Apple in mixolidyan. I play G note little higher and like to have E chord instead of G chord back me up.
Bosco
Geez - I bet you're one of those fiddlers that doesn't want the G chord in Old Joe Clark either...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 04/19/2009 05:20:38
bosco - Posted - 04/19/2009: 05:21:01
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Geez - you probably don't want the G chord in Old Joe Clark either...
What are you talking about? G? Where?
And don't tell me there is Em in North Carolina Breakdown
Konnichiwa, arigato, sayonara
Edited by - bosco on 04/19/2009 05:33:16
bosco - Posted - 04/19/2009: 05:31:05
"A Mixolydian Key of D" gives me a strange idea.
Does anybody wanna try this chords on June Apple?
If you think it's A mixolydian, it begins and ends with IV chord. If you think it's key of D, it begins and ends with V note. Goes something like:
D D/A G G/A
D D/A A/G D :ll
D A A G
D A A D:ll
Bosco
Konnichiwa, arigato, sayonara
OTJunky - Posted - 04/19/2009: 05:36:21
quote:
Originally posted by bosco
The scale and key are deferent things.
Yes, It's in D major scale. And A mixolydian is ABC#DEF#G The root note is "A". D is IV. E is V. And G is VII. There are many tunes end with V chord. So the tune ends with A chord doesn't mean it's in key of A. The ROOT NOTE is the key.
Yes, A mixolydian has 2 # signature. But it doesn't mean key of D. It's 3 #(key of A) and 1 b (# + b =natural, which is G).
This is all true.
I think most guitar players that back up a tune that ends on the V chord - just think of those tunes as a "exceptions to the rules". There are - as you say - quite a few exceptions to the rules in OT music and I didn't want to overly complicate the explanation and run the risk of obfuscating it.
Most of us guitar players need a relatively simple conceptual framework so that it fits within the limited space we've allocated for abstract thoughts...
Though I wouldn't want to unfairly paint DougD with that brush...
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 04/19/2009 05:39:50
OTJunky - Posted - 04/19/2009: 05:49:57
quote:
Originally posted by bosco
"A Mixolydian Key of D" gives me a strange idea.
Does anybody wanna try this chords on June Apple?
If you think it's A mixolydian, it begins and ends with IV chord. If you think it's key of D, it begins and ends with V note. Goes something like:
D D/A G G/A
D D/A A/G D :ll
D A A G
D A A D:ll
I dunno - now you're asking me to play jazz...
I might try it though next time I'm around another fiddler. Those modal tunes allow a lot of different - and sometimes really interesting - harmonizations.
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
yawnofthedead - Posted - 04/19/2009: 05:51:24
quote:
Originally posted by bosco
One thing I don't agree with you guys here. I don't quite play June Apple in mixolidyan. I play G note little higher and like to have E chord instead of G chord back me up.
Bosco
Actually, even though I hit the G during the B part, I still prefer an E chord over a G chord. It gives the tune a very unique sound.
-Omid
yawnofthedead - Posted - 04/19/2009: 05:57:02
quote:
Originally posted by bosco
"A Mixolydian Key of D" gives me a strange idea.
Does anybody wanna try this chords on June Apple?
If you think it's A mixolydian, it begins and ends with IV chord. If you think it's key of D, it begins and ends with V note. Goes something like:
D D/A G G/A
D D/A A/G D :ll
D A A G
D A A D:ll
Bosco
Konnichiwa, arigato, sayonara
Well, I gave that a try. TOTALLY different sound, but if you played the song for someone who had never heard it, you could probably get away with playing those chords.
-Omid
hanknc - Posted - 04/19/2009: 06:28:48
Play the E chord and play G naturals as accidentals and let the wide world wag as it will.
Here's the Smoky Valley Boys playing June Apple with nary a "G" chord in sight:
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang...s.asp?id=524
Edited by - hanknc on 04/20/2009 10:49:49
DougD - Posted - 04/20/2009: 10:55:29
With the chords from the Fiddler's Fakebook as a starting point, here's how I play this tune (Fakebook chords in parentheses if "wrong"):
A, (G)D, A, (G) E, A
A, (G) omit, D, A, (G) E, A
I also play the coarse part first, then the fine.
My theory on the D chord is that when old time guitar players, with the "limited space we've allocated for abstract thoughts" as OTJ so eloquently put it, were confronted with a strange chord, they tried I - "nope," V - "nope," and then IV - that's as weird as it should get.
Plus it seems almost un-American to play a G chord in those tunes. Apparently its dishonorable in Japan too.
I've played it this way for many years - sometimes its hard to convince people in a jam session, but I have my methods. Good thing we never recorded this tune or the world would be an even more confusing place.
I want to record this for here, but although yesterday it sounded pretty good, today the Banshee seems to be howling.
Edited by - DougD on 04/20/2009 10:57:59
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 04/20/2009: 13:48:46
Doing my homework, and a note from Bruce Molskey. I found this in Appalachian Fiddle by Miles Krasson on Modal tunes: "Modal tunes are a type of melody common in the Southern Appalachians which uses a scale that is neither major nor minor. I like to call them A to G tunes since they are usually based on a harmonic progression which moves from A (either major or minor) to G and back to A. This progression, so deceptively simple, has nevertheless proved vital enough to provide a basis for many of the oldest and most distinctive Southern Appalachian fiddle tunes.
Basically, modal tunes hark back to the Old Highland Scottish Bagpipe music. The Scottish bagpipe chanter sounds a pitch just slightly sharper than G# in the key of A. The pipes cannot play a G# which ordinarily helps to establish both the major and minor tonalities of the key of A. Consequently, highland pipe music contains a great variety of A to G tunes in a mode which is called Double Tonic. The settlers of Scotch-Irish descent brought this modality with them to the Southern Appalachians where it nurtured the beautiful modal fiddle tunes which are by now distinctly AMERICAN."
Uncle Charlie Higgins, the great Galax, Virginia fiddler played only a few A to G tunes. But, his version of JUNE APPLE is the best I have ever heard. It starts out with E,G, A, G, E, G, A, G, E, G, A, G, E, D, C#, B, A, F#.....it goes on, this only a sample of intro and first 2 measures.
What Bruce Molsky says about June Apple is that.."Most every fiddler in Surry County, N.C. has their own way of playing this great old dance tune. My version comes from Tommy Jarrell. It is in the Key of A, fiddle tuned: AEAE, banjo AEAC#E (GDGBD, capo 2).
Chords are: A part A A A D
A A E A
B part A A E E
A A E A
Edited by - Fiddlepiper on 04/20/2009 13:52:46
DougD - Posted - 04/20/2009: 18:55:57
Fiddlepiper, good on ya for continuing your research. So it seems that Bruce is another one who doesn't use the G chord in "June Apple." Another example of an "A to G" tune with no G! Its worth mentioning that neither the Tommy Jarrell recording nor what Bruce describes include a guitar - the "modal" tunes work fine until you try to adapt them to this instrument.
I looked for Uncle Charlie Higgins' version on the classic records and didn't find it, but I did see "Paddy on the Turnpike" which I thought might be instructive, but it actually was "Blackberry Blossom," which reminded me of something else - on the B part many people today would go to e minor, but here the guitar plays E major. I was taught this by either Paul Sutphin or Whit Sizemore, who also showed me where to put my fingers for the run into and out of the chord. I miss those guys - friendly and generous with their knowledge.
And yes, the tunes have become AMERICAN, but so have the chords. If you listen to both Irish-American and American old time recordings from the 1920's or so, they differ in several ways, but one is the choice of chords in the accompaniment. The A to G change is not so often used in American playing - listen to "Boys, my Money's All Gone" here: http://www.juneberry78s.com/otmsamp...%20Money.mp3
I don't know anything about the pipes. Is the statement about the G# correct in the quote in your post? I would say that the third (C or C#) is what mostly determines a major or minor tonality. The seventh, aside from a "blues" feel, also determines the tonality of the V chord - strictly speaking this would be a minor chord in the mixolydian mode, if you just use the notes of that scale, which has other implications.
Also, I would say that "modal" tunes come not only from "Scottish Bagpipe music," but also from Africa.
Edited by - DougD on 04/20/2009 19:22:17
rcc - Posted - 04/20/2009: 20:58:37
I'm with Bosco on this one. Play the E, not the G chord. That lets the fiddler play G#, G natural or any microtone in between -- and many hard-core Round Peak fiddlers will do the latter -- and have the chord work with the melody.
