dpopefiddle - Posted - 08/08/2007:  09:22:31

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How did the word "potatoes" become associated with the common fiddle intro?

What a legacy we leave - a poisoned earth and a malignant mankind.
One less screech everyday.

OTJunky - Posted - 08/08/2007:  09:50:37

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There's a common children's rhyme the first part of which goes...

"One Potato, Two Potato, Three Potato, Four."

This sounds a lot like the rhythm of the Nashville shuffle that fiddlers use to set the tempo on a tune when starting out - especially if you substitute the stereotypical Southern pronunciation, "tater".

So, this got adopted into the OT fiddler's lexicon. And it's common when starting a tune for the backup musicians to say "Give me 4 potatoes" when they want one measure to set the tempo - or "Give me 8 potatoes" when they want a two bar introduction to set the tempo before the tune starts.


-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 08/08/2007 10:52:34

dpopefiddle - Posted - 08/08/2007:  09:53:36

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Thanks - that's interesting.

What a legacy we leave - a poisoned earth and a malignant mankind.
One less screech everyday.

M-D - Posted - 08/08/2007:  12:37:36

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Or Art Stamper who used a whole bushel of potatoes to start.

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/08/2007:  18:50:04

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Like real potatoes,
"four potatoes" can be kind of bland,
and may need a little spicing up..
maybe a little cheese!
Double stops with a built in slur,
(equivalent of a banjo or guitar hammer-on)
and fancy shuffles can do the trick.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

tiquose - Posted - 08/10/2007:  12:47:11

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Pete Wernick, the banjo player who runs jam camps around the country, claims to have started it. I heard him say so at his jam camp in Boulder, CO last spring.

Janet

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/10/2007:  16:25:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by tiquose

Pete Wernick, the banjo player who runs jam camps around the country, claims to have started it. I heard him say so at his jam camp in Boulder, CO last spring.

Janet

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I'm not so sure about that- I remember the expression
"Give me some potatoes." meaning, "do the fiddle intro"
as being used in the early '70s.

Was he doing banjo camps back then?

On the other hand, I do seem to associate it with a banjo
player from that era.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

tiquose - Posted - 08/10/2007:  17:00:02

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quote:

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Was he doing banjo camps back then?

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Probably not jam camps, but he was playing and recording then. You may know of his former band, Hot Rize.

Janet

Arkansas Traveller - Posted - 08/11/2007:  11:08:24

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Thanks ...thats very interesting

oldtimer - Posted - 08/12/2007:  15:26:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by tiquose

Pete Wernick, the banjo player who runs jam camps around the country, claims to have started it. I heard him say so at his jam camp in Boulder, CO last spring.

Janet

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The actual bum-ditty, bim-ditty, bum-ditty, bum intro is ancient...I heard it done long before Pete was born. But, Pete may have started the "one-potato" phrase. I always thought it was strange that the one-potato phrase doesn't match what fiddlers play. So, it makes sense that a non-fiddler originated the phrase.

To match what most fiddlers actually play, the phrase would have to be one-tater, two-tater, three-tater, four. Unless you play an 1/8 note slur on the first beat...then one-potato would work. Usually we only slur once, not four times.

Several Arkansas fiddlers I used to play with played eight taters rather than four. I prefer the eight because it establishes the rhythm more definitely than four. But the callers and dancers I play for are used to four so that is what I play nowadays.

Actually, when I was a kid in the Texas Panhandle, we always played just four one beat bow strokes for dances: one, two, three, four.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

wormbower - Posted - 08/12/2007:  23:52:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by tiquose

Pete Wernick, the banjo player who runs jam camps around the country, claims to have started it. I heard him say so at his jam camp in Boulder, CO last spring.

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Pete also repeats that claim in his intermediate bluegrass jamming DVD. He's very accessible, and occasionally hangs out at the Banjo Hangout if anybody wants to ask him.

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

coelhoe - Posted - 08/13/2007:  14:02:41

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Pete is the only person I've ever heard use the phrase, so he may be correct. I mean, who would claim such an "honor" otherwise?

But I joined a pal at one Pete's earliest banjo camps , '87 I think it was down in Niwot, near Boulder, and nobody used the phrase then.



Dennis

VivianW - Posted - 09/29/2009:  17:49:21

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I heard that the "potatoes" terminology was invented by some California hippie musicians, perhaps in the Fresno area, in the 1960's. I seem to remember Jody Stecher's name being associated with it, and maybe Hank Bradley or Jeff Thorne. The idea apparently was, why settle for a four "beet " introduction, when it could just as well have been 4 carrots or 4 potatoes. This might be in the realm of folklore, rather than real oral history! But nevertheless it's a bad joke, and a good story.


Vivian T. Williams

bsed - Posted - 09/29/2009:  18:07:04

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldtimer

quote:

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Originally posted by tiquose

Pete Wernick, the banjo player who runs jam camps around the country, claims to have started it. I heard him say so at his jam camp in Boulder, CO last spring.

Janet

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The actual bum-ditty, bim-ditty, bum-ditty, bum intro is ancient...I heard it done long before Pete was born. But, Pete may have started the "one-potato" phrase. I always thought it was strange that the one-potato phrase doesn't match what fiddlers play. So, it makes sense that a non-fiddler originated the phrase.

To match what most fiddlers actually play, the phrase would have to be one-tater, two-tater, three-tater, four. Unless you play an 1/8 note slur on the first beat...then one-potato would work. Usually we only slur once, not four times.

Several Arkansas fiddlers I used to play with played eight taters rather than four. I prefer the eight because it establishes the rhythm more definitely than four. But the callers and dancers I play for are used to four so that is what I play nowadays.

Actually, when I was a kid in the Texas Panhandle, we always played just four one beat bow strokes for dances: one, two, three, four.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

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I'm not sure what it says, but this discussion brings to mind Al Gore's (3rd party) assertion that he invented the internet.

Just call me Dwight.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 09/30/2009:  05:27:44

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I saw on a video Pete Seeger telling Doc Watson that he (Seeger) invented the term, "Hammer-on". Doc didn't seem convinced.

Some of these phrases are so old and widespread, it's hard to know how they got started. I'd always heard "taters," being from Kentucky, and that's how the vegetable if often called where I've lived, anyway. I never heard people talking about playing "potatoes" until I started reading the net. I always imagined people may have used the phrase to help kids learning to play, but don't know that for any kind of fact at all.

I don't kow where bum-ditty came from either... Dwight Diller says the old people he learned from didn't call it that or anything else... but I wonder how old that one might really be.

Swing - Posted - 09/30/2009:  06:30:38

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So, has anyone got stuck on the potatoes and not be able to get into the tune?

Play Happy

Swing

BanjoBrad - Posted - 09/30/2009:  12:17:37

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ME! Me, Me, Me, Me!!!!

I have to stop and remember what tune I'm supposed to be playing, and try to remember if I need an up-bow or down-bow to start - I'm usually on the wrong direction!

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Brad
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Edited by - BanjoBrad on 09/30/2009 12:19:31

wormbower - Posted - 09/30/2009:  12:31:14

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Well, Brad, everyone knows you MUST start every tune on a downbow.

KIDDING!!!

Paul

The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/30/2009:  13:43:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldtimer

I always thought it was strange that the one-potato phrase doesn't match what fiddlers play. So, it makes sense that a non-fiddler originated the phrase.

To match what most fiddlers actually play, the phrase would have to be one-tater, two-tater, three-tater, four. Unless you play an 1/8 note slur on the first beat...then one-potato would work. Usually we only slur once, not four times.

Several Arkansas fiddlers I used to play with played eight taters rather than four. I prefer the eight because it establishes the rhythm more definitely than four. But the callers and dancers I play for are used to four so that is what I play nowadays.

Actually, when I was a kid in the Texas Panhandle, we always played just four one beat bow strokes for dances: one, two, three, four.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey[/size=2]

"Time passes unhindered"

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I always thought it strange as well. The potato rhythm sounds like a pattern that doesn't often set up the rhythm I'm going to play. Even the slurred version of it.

As far as getting stuck on potatoes, many find a difficulty with the potatoes and leave room for the appropriate pickup notes.

For dances the one beat stokes works well, New England contra bands do this quite a bit with the piano. I do like 8 beats better, mostly because the others I play with often have a difficult time with just 4. But most callers want just 4, can't wrap their head around 8. I find it helps to quietly, verbally or foot, give the other musicians the rhythm first, get it going before the 4 beats. Some players, never used potatoes, but instead use a turnaround tag often from the actual tune. I try to at least give a clearer idea of the rhythm of the tune.

For just performing I never do 4 potatoes with that group, what's the point if they are going to miss the one beat. Instead I might use just beats, do an intro tag, count, let the guitar do the intro, or just plan on not all coming in on the first beat. I start strong and they come in strong on the second phrase, or second A part.

For jamming I think people get too wrapped up on the importance of starting all together on the first beat. Many can't just jump in with 4, and end up trying to catch up or slow down to match the beat, it affects what everybody hears, so a certain chaotic mess happens for the first part of the tune. Again what's the point of someone doing 4 potatoes if you are going to miss the beat. What I find works much better is just let one person start the tune, and when you get a firm handle on the feel find an appropriate place to join in.

George