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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/7362
tango_grass - Posted - 02/10/2009: 23:23:04
"So, Diminished chords = 1, b3, b5.
So if you flatten(diminish) the perfect 5th into a b(flat)5 to create the Dim Triad, why isn't it called a Flatted Chord/triad?"
A friend of mine posed me this question, and although I cannot get the point across, I feel it can be done! Maybe some of you have a great explanation of the laws of Diminished chords?
Chris,
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hanknc - Posted - 02/11/2009: 05:43:25
They are frequently called "flat 5" chords. You stated perfectly the definition of a 'diminished chord', but I don't know the legality of that definition. I am sure the Theory Police will be along directly to straighten us out.
FWIW, (and what do I know?) I think of chords as either major, minor or dominant. Diminished and augmented chords are dominant chords.
best,
Hank
Fidla - Posted - 02/11/2009: 05:55:01
I've never heard it called a flatted chord. But I don't know the reason why. I'm not a theory hound like some of the guys here.
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scrubber - Posted - 02/11/2009: 07:29:03
quote:
Originally posted by hanknc
I think of chords as either major, minor or dominant. Diminished and augmented chords are dominant chords.
hanknc - Posted - 02/11/2009: 10:16:30
quote:
Generally speaking, diminished and augmented chords (and seventh chords, too) are considered more unstable than 'regular' chords and this usually means that they will have a dominant function .
dave
Edited by - hanknc on 02/11/2009 10:17:41
scrubber - Posted - 02/11/2009: 11:10:27
quote:
Originally posted by tango_grass
So if you flatten(diminish) the perfect 5th into a b(flat)5 to create the Dim Triad, why isn't it called a Flatted Chord/triad?
Chris,]
tango_grass - Posted - 02/11/2009: 11:36:05
My friend will pose me with many more headaches with all the posed explanations....Thanks guys! ![]()
Chris,
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fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 02/12/2009: 01:42:11
Since there are only 3 diminished chords, which one do you guys find easier to play?
There's the G dim- G,Bb,C#,E
The D dim- Ab,B,D,F
and the A dim - A,C,Eb,F#
Of course you can call them by any note in the chord, ex. a G dim is also a Bb dim, etc. The G dim might be easier to play since it has 2 open strings, but they're all hard for me since I just don't play them enough to get used to them.
Over the Rainbow has that nice dim run place in it. They sure sound pretty if you can play them properly. But they are A LOT easier on the guitar!
scrubber - Posted - 02/12/2009: 11:14:23
This thread concerns the diminished fifth chord.![]()
The fully-diminshed seventh chord is versatile! Lowering any one of it's notes by a half-step makes it a dominant seventh, providing four potential modulations.
Very usefull!![]()
dave
Edited by - scrubber on 02/12/2009 11:25:40
bj - Posted - 02/12/2009: 11:38:14
quote:
The fully-diminshed seventh chord is versatile! Lowering any one of it's notes by a half-step makes it a dominant seventh, providing four potential modulations.
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 02/15/2009: 13:04:54
The most effective double stop to use is the diminished fifth because it outlines the characteristic of the chord. This is done by playing the Root and fifth, or the third and seventh together. The fingers should be placed very close together to achieve the proper intonation. The diminished seventh chord is made up of minor thirds, dividing the octave into four equal parts. Because of this, there are only three different diminished seventh chords and their inversions.
Diminished seventh chords: G, A#, B flat, C#, D flat and E
Diminished seventh chords: G#, A flat, B, D, and F
Diminished seventh chords: A, C, D#, E flat, F#, G flat
The Augmented chord is made up of major thirds dividing the octave into 3 equal parts. Because of this, there are only four different augmented chords and their inversions. The G, B, and D#, E flat all contain the same pitches. Also true for G#, A flat, C, E augmented chords. The A, C#, D flat, F, and the A#, B flat, D, F#, G flat augmented chords.
Terry
leather Britches - Posted - 07/23/2009: 03:57:59
While I never heard of a Flatted Chord / Triad ( I'll have to search my theory books ) The answer is in the 3 rd.
Take A maj. ( A C# E ) if you just lower the 5 th a half step you'll have an Amaj b5 chord ( A C# bE ) to make it diminished you would also
have to lower the third a half step to C. ( A C bE ) making it A dim.
John
My cat stopped yelling that must be a good sign right ?
FiddlPat - Posted - 07/23/2009: 08:10:50
If you have access to a piano style keyboard, and can find middle C, sit down at it and note(not pun,,well, ok,,,pun) that when/if you play a scale from C to C you don't use any black keys. So, of the 12 available tones in the octave, only 7 get used in a major scale. C(and its related modes) is the only key in music that uses no black keys.
Chords(triad chords) are built in 3rds. What this means is that you play a scale note,,the first being C, skip the next(D), and then play E, skip the next(F), and then play G. In the key of C, that's known as the ONE chord.(speaking from a point of view of triad-three note-chords) Composed of the notes C, E, and G. You'll also notice, if you look at the black keys(because they are there,,just not played), you can count the number of half steps involved in each third that is used in the chord, the distance from a white key to the next black key(and conversely from that black key to the next white key,,count like that) being one half step. So far, so good???
The first Triad chord, the ONE chord is, if you count like this, is a major triad, and it has TWO third jumps in it(C to E, and E to G) and you'll notice that the first third jump has four half steps, while the second third jump has three half steps. ALL major triads have this structure. In a MAJOR triad, the first third jump always has 4 half steps, and the second always has 3 half steps. The next chord in the key of C is built from D to F to A(a D minor triad) and you'll notice the order is reversed,,the first third jump consisting of a minor third(three half steps), and the second third jump consisting of a major third(four half steps). All minor triads are built like this. Long story short, as you go up the notes of the C scale,,making the CHORDs that are called DIATONIC(pertaining to) to the key of C, you'll notice they consist of a major triad, a minor triad, another minor triad, a major triad, a major triad(this is the G chord,,the FIVE chord, which is really the dominant 7th,) though this truth is not revealed till you put another 3rd jump in the chord, so that IT has FOUR voices,,a triad having THREE voices), a minor triad, and FINALLY, the clincher, the number SEVEN chord in the key of C, being from B, to D, to F, and if you count the two types of third jumps in THIS chord, you'll see it consists of a minor, three half step third, and ANOTHER minor, three half step third jump. THIS is the DIMINISHED triad, consisting of two minor third jumps. IT is the only one in the key of C, and it is always a diminished triad in any key you are in,,,the SEVENTH(don't confuse this with a seventh chortd) diatonic triad. This is where the FLATTED FIVE takes place, because if you count scale degrees of the 'scale of the moment' from a B note, with F being the FIFTH note you get to, hence, the 5th, in the key of C, with two minor third jumps, you'll see it is the only chord in the series where you don't have a perfect Fifth taking place, but/and the fifth here is flatted a half step by the very nature of what is forced to happen if you use the notes of the key of C, which you are doing. ALL the other diatonic chords DO have a perfect fifth in their structure.
Four types of triads:
Major: a major third and a minor third
Minor: a minor third and a major third
Diminished: a minor third and a minor third
Augmented: a major third and a major third(this doesn't have a perfect 5th either, but it is out of this loop)
The Augmented triad does not occur in the natural triad series of any key, from this standpoint, though it is part and parcel of music in general, and used, especially in jazz and classical. Concerning the the FIVE chord, the dominant 7th, which needs FOUR(not three) voices to be established, you'll notice that the top two third intervals of the chord are DIMINISHED, so if you leave out the ROOT, the G note, and play it(it 'would' go, G, B, D, F) you'll notice that the triad of notes frormed by the top triad of this what was FOUR(but you're now playing only the top 3 voices) voice chord is the same as the number SEVEN diatonic chord of the series, and is that same B diminished triad spoken of above. If you want to find out all about the FOUR voice chords relative to any major key,,start with the C note, and make THREE third jumps(which yield what are called SEVENTH chords, because the top note of the final third jump is the seventh note of the 'scale of the moment', and you'll observe this series, which holds true for any major key.
C major 7
D minor 7
E minor 7
F major 7
G DOMINANT 7
A minor 7
B MINOR SEVEN FLAT FIVE(because of the dimished triad on the bottom, giving you two minor third jumps automatically flats the fifth of the 'scale of the moment'
I know all this may seem confusing, but if you have a keyboard in front of you, and take the time to look at what is happening, it is really quite simple.
The FIVE chord, the dominant 7 chord of any key, is where all sorts of monkey business is allowed to take place, and is the juke joint for strange types of chords to hang out at, allowing key changes, etc.(though key changes can pivot off of any chord that is common to any two keys, and there are yet other ways to effect key changes, but I wanted to keep this explanation as simple and as concise as possible. I use the key of C because it has no black key notes,,piano-wise, to further confuse things,,it's confusing enough until you get a handle on how really SIMPLE it all is)
If affects us fiddlers, though it really is nice to have a piano style keyboard to have a look see at the innards of this theory.
Pat
Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow
Edited by - FiddlPat on 07/25/2009 07:23:14
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